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Subject: "Racist discourse and paternalism." This topic is locked.
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chillsm00th
Member since Mar 25th 2005
6177 posts
Sat May-14-05 06:51 AM

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"Racist discourse and paternalism."


  

          

White people commenting on the Black condition.

Where do they think their authority to comment on these things comes from? Often, they deem themselves careful observers of the community, and would aver that their critical thinking skills are enough, coupled with that, to make their opinions relevant.

That has a grain of truth, but it is very limited for a simple reason. In a society dominated by whites, whites who assume that their notions of existence are normative, they find it difficult to recognize that their opinions shouldn't hold more weight. Being white, they feel as though their opinions should be the starting point for any conversation about any topic.

This hampers any discussion they can try to have about the Black condition because they won't release their sense of authority on the issues merely by dint of being white.

And that's why, by and large, White opinions of the Black condition hold no weight. We're actual members and participants in this community, and don't need outsiders to come in and attempt to delineate our problems for us. Especially when they act like their perceptions are novel, true, or somehow worth hearing moreso than what we can determine ourselves about our condition.

<--All-American couple


"people on here just be like " go for it man! its sex! god forbid you turn down SEX! *dances around the baal statue*" -- Stephbit

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
True
Apr 21st 2005
1
It's about credibility
Apr 21st 2005
2
RE: It's about credibility
Apr 21st 2005
3
      Because white people assume their opinions to be authoritative
Apr 21st 2005
4
           RE: Because white people assume their opinions to be authoritative
Apr 21st 2005
5
                Oh-PLEASE...there are still Grown Adults that think this way..?
Apr 21st 2005
6
RE: True
Apr 21st 2005
7
RE: Racist discourse and paternalism.
Apr 21st 2005
8
I think we suffer from a paralysis of analysis
May 10th 2005
31
RE: Racist discourse and paternalism.
Apr 25th 2005
9
Cosign 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Apr 25th 2005
10
RE: Racist discourse and paternalism.
May 09th 2005
11
RE: This post is an oxymoron,
May 09th 2005
12
      RE: Typical ignoramous liberal!
May 09th 2005
16
           RE: Typical ignoramous liberal!
May 09th 2005
17
                RE: Typical ignoramous liberal!
May 09th 2005
18
                     Delete, wrong post
May 09th 2005
21
                          RE: Delete, wrong post
May 09th 2005
22
                RE: Typical ignoramous liberal!
May 15th 2005
108
                     RE: Typical ignoramous liberal!
May 15th 2005
110
What Donald Mercado wrote
May 09th 2005
13
But surely this is a tick of the university system...
May 11th 2005
54
      It goes deeper than that
May 12th 2005
80
           RE: It goes deeper than that
May 12th 2005
81
                RE: It goes deeper than that
May 12th 2005
82
RE: Racist discourse and paternalism.
May 09th 2005
14
RE: ahh..peace
May 09th 2005
25
Wait, are black people capable of being self normative?
May 09th 2005
26
RE: and that's what i was saying...but because im white..hatorade...
May 09th 2005
27
Considering the topic, you shoulda expected your argument to be moot
May 09th 2005
28
      RE: Considering the topic, you shoulda expected your argument to be moot
May 09th 2005
29
           I'll help you out BarTek
May 10th 2005
35
           RE: I'll help you out BarTek
May 10th 2005
40
                RE: I'll help you out BarTek
May 10th 2005
43
                RE: That right there is...
May 10th 2005
45
                     RE: That right there is...
May 10th 2005
48
                That's the problem, you're not on the frontline!
May 10th 2005
50
                     RE: That's the problem, you're not on the frontline!
May 11th 2005
53
                          RE: That's the problem, you're not on the frontline!
May 11th 2005
56
           I dunno the original poster's motivation
May 10th 2005
37
but isn't being 'Black' the meat of discussion
May 10th 2005
30
RE: but isn't being 'Black' the meat of discussion
May 10th 2005
34
      then why not just take 'Black' out the equation?
May 10th 2005
38
           RE: then why not just take 'Black' out the equation?
May 10th 2005
49
                RE: then why not just take 'Black' out the equation?
May 11th 2005
61
                     RE: then why not just take 'Black' out the equation?
May 11th 2005
68
                          RE: then why not just take 'Black' out the equation?
May 11th 2005
71
                               RE: then why not just take 'Black' out the equation?
May 11th 2005
77
I think you are twisting the argument...
May 10th 2005
32
      thanks for summing that up.
May 10th 2005
33
      The original post would be better off supporting your post
May 10th 2005
36
      *claps*
May 10th 2005
39
      RE: not so fast....
May 10th 2005
42
      RE: Hmmmmmm....
May 10th 2005
41
           This is why this post was made
May 10th 2005
44
           RE: wrong again!
May 10th 2005
46
                RE: wrong again!
May 10th 2005
47
                     Oh c'mon now-be nice.
May 10th 2005
51
                     RE: wrong again!
May 10th 2005
52
                          Seek counseling
May 11th 2005
55
                               This is so true:
May 11th 2005
57
                               So on this reasoning if I give an educated opinion on
May 11th 2005
59
                               If its your opinion...probably so
May 11th 2005
63
                                    You're restricting the meaning of 'opinion' to 'two cents worth'
May 11th 2005
65
                                         your academic theory is based on what?
May 11th 2005
69
                                              This is a weak analogy...
May 11th 2005
70
                                                   I think i'd be able to differentiate to some extent
May 11th 2005
72
                                                   Point noted
May 11th 2005
74
                                                        RE: Point noted
May 11th 2005
76
                                                             Then last question...
May 12th 2005
79
                                                                  Hey man!!
May 13th 2005
89
                                                                  Lol...
May 13th 2005
91
                                                                  RE: Then last question...
May 13th 2005
90
                                                                       Another example in post 92
May 13th 2005
93
                                                                       Whoops!
May 13th 2005
94
                                                                            RE: Whoops!
May 13th 2005
95
                                                                            RE: Whoops!
May 13th 2005
96
                                                                            Then I'll address it...
May 14th 2005
97
                                                                            RE: Then I'll address it...
May 14th 2005
98
                                                                            Wrong IF
May 14th 2005
100
                                                                            RE: Wrong IF
May 14th 2005
101
                                                                            RE: Wrong IF
May 14th 2005
102
                                                                            Huh?!?
May 14th 2005
104
                                                                            RE: Huh?!?
May 15th 2005
107
                                                                            RE: Huh?!?
May 15th 2005
109
                                                                            RE: Huh?!?
May 17th 2005
114
                                                                            This response if very disappointing
May 17th 2005
115
                                                                            Jumping in...
May 17th 2005
116
                                                                            Thank You
May 17th 2005
118
                                                   RE: This is a weak analogy...
May 11th 2005
73
                                                        You either like the to and fro'
May 11th 2005
75
                               RE: You're not worth my time,
May 11th 2005
64
           ?
May 11th 2005
58
           Thats nice and all
May 11th 2005
62
                RE: Thats nice and all
May 11th 2005
66
                     thats a lot of scrolling
May 11th 2005
67
                          RE: what i think of that conversation...
May 12th 2005
78
.
May 11th 2005
60
RE: Archive!
May 12th 2005
83
RE: Racist discourse and paternalism.
May 13th 2005
84
He was as racist as they come.
May 13th 2005
85
      RE: He was as racist as they come.
May 13th 2005
86
      Yes
May 13th 2005
88
           RE: Yes
May 16th 2005
111
      RE: He was as racist as they come.
May 13th 2005
87
           Racism is easy to prove
May 13th 2005
92
                well stated...
May 14th 2005
106
                RE: Racism is easy to prove
May 16th 2005
112
                     It's clear you dont know what racism is
May 16th 2005
113
That is presumptious...
May 14th 2005
105
From #116
May 17th 2005
117
let's hear more from the prophet on this, tell me oh ye of wisdom...
Jun 07th 2005
119
Question
Jun 07th 2005
120
      RE: Question
Jun 07th 2005
121
and what the hell is the black condition?
Jun 07th 2005
122

sunngodd
Member since Feb 20th 2003
8324 posts
Thu Apr-21-05 12:08 PM

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1. "True"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Someone who has lived an experience has more authority to comment on the situation than outsiders.

However, "you're white" shouldn't be a valid dismissal of a white persons opinions about the black community. We should deal with the accuracy of the statement, rather than the person who makes it.

------------------------------

“The Negro pays for what he wants and begs for what he needs.” -Kelly Miller

  

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chillsm00th
Member since Mar 25th 2005
6177 posts
Thu Apr-21-05 12:11 PM

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2. "It's about credibility"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

Mainly that white people, oftentimes, think they have more credibility than they actually do, to comment on a situation. It's not about dismissal, it's about white people's discomfort about being put in their place in a discussion about Black issues. And Black people's discomfort, oftentimes, about putting them in their place.

<--All-American couple


"people on here just be like " go for it man! its sex! god forbid you turn down SEX! *dances around the baal statue*" -- Stephbit

  

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sunngodd
Member since Feb 20th 2003
8324 posts
Thu Apr-21-05 12:22 PM

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3. "RE: It's about credibility"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

But why do white people have to have a "place?" A discussion is about ideas, not the person putting forth the idea. Unless the discussion is about something that necessarily requires knowledge on what it is like to be black, a white person can be just as right about a "black issue" as anyone else.


------------------------------

“The Negro pays for what he wants and begs for what he needs.” -Kelly Miller

  

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chillsm00th
Member since Mar 25th 2005
6177 posts
Thu Apr-21-05 01:43 PM

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4. "Because white people assume their opinions to be authoritative"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

And that the perspective from which they are addressing an issue to be normative, neither of which is ever necessarily the case, but both of which they assume are the case merely by the way they are socialized.

Moreover, you cannot separate an idea from the perspective and assumptions that undergird it.

<--All-American couple


"people on here just be like " go for it man! its sex! god forbid you turn down SEX! *dances around the baal statue*" -- Stephbit

  

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sunngodd
Member since Feb 20th 2003
8324 posts
Thu Apr-21-05 02:10 PM

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5. "RE: Because white people assume their opinions to be authoritative"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

>And that the perspective from which they are addressing an
>issue to be normative, neither of which is ever necessarily
>the case, but both of which they assume are the case merely by
>the way they are socialized.

You're making a huge generalization here, this point can't be proven or disproven.

>Moreover, you cannot separate an idea from the perspective and
>assumptions that undergird it.

I agree, i'm just saying that that you can't adress underlying perspectives and assumptions as a way to dismiss the idea rather than cosidering the ideal on it's merits.

------------------------------

“The Negro pays for what he wants and begs for what he needs.” -Kelly Miller

  

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pwrbassxATokplaya
Member since Feb 02nd 2005
180 posts
Thu Apr-21-05 04:33 PM

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6. "Oh-PLEASE...there are still Grown Adults that think this way..?"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

Who,in their right mind would judge the Intellectual Content of and individual based on some sillyness about skin color,,???

I hope chillsmooth isn't trying do this .

Where are you going with this?

Aren't there more important thing to discuss than the superficialities of skin color?

Maybe there ARE some dumb white people who assume authority based on their race.

Hopefully you are not trying to use the example of DumbYT's as an EXCUSE to disregard otherwise VALID opinions of credible/intelligent whites who's conscienciousness is not diluted with the sillyness of petty racism.


Assuming we are dealing with things with Respect and in an Intelligent manner--All things being Equal--WHAT DOES skin color have ANYTHING to do with how Grown Adults interact..?

Peace+Luv=Canada

  

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killa66
Member since Apr 20th 2005
111 posts
Thu Apr-21-05 05:59 PM

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7. "RE: True"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

>Someone who has lived an experience has more authority to
>comment on the situation than outsiders.
>
>However, "you're white" shouldn't be a valid dismissal of a
>white persons opinions about the black community. We should
>deal with the accuracy of the statement, rather than the
>person who makes it.
*yawn* Were you born this stupid or is it a case of uncle tomism?

fuck you

  

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brainsoup_
Member since Oct 20th 2004
5173 posts
Thu Apr-21-05 08:45 PM

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8. "RE: Racist discourse and paternalism."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

sorry im with sungodd on this.

some of the problems that black people face are universal (ie related to poverty, dienfranchisement etc.)

and some black people know not of what they speak.

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6561 posts
Tue May-10-05 12:39 PM

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31. "I think we suffer from a paralysis of analysis"
In response to Reply # 8
Tue May-10-05 12:39 PM by brokenchains79

  

          

Seems like you have misconstrued what his point is.

Maybe because the issue is race. But if I am poor in Chicago I can't tell someone who is poor in Nigeria, about what in means to be poor in Nigeria if I am poor in Chicago.

Throw in the fact this is a race determinant society and his points becomes clearer.
Also, nowhere did he say all Black people know what they are talking about and all white people don't know shit.


*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

  

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killa66
Member since Apr 20th 2005
111 posts
Mon Apr-25-05 04:26 PM

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9. "RE: Racist discourse and paternalism."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

up

fuck you

  

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Bdiddy04
Member since Oct 28th 2004
1578 posts
Mon Apr-25-05 06:18 PM

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10. "Cosign 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!1"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>White people commenting on the Black condition.
>
>Where do they think their authority to comment on these things
>comes from? Often, they deem themselves careful observers of
>the community, and would aver that their critical thinking
>skills are enough, coupled with that, to make their opinions
>relevant.
>
>That has a grain of truth, but it is very limited for a simple
>reason. In a society dominated by whites, whites who assume
>that their notions of existence are normative, they find it
>difficult to recognize that their opinions shouldn't hold more
>weight. Being white, they feel as though their opinions should
>be the starting point for any conversation about any topic.
>
>This hampers any discussion they can try to have about the
>Black condition because they won't release their sense of
>authority on the issues merely by dint of being white.
>
>And that's why, by and large, White opinions of the Black
>condition hold no weight. We're actual members and
>participants in this community, and don't need outsiders to
>come in and attempt to delineate our problems for us.
>Especially when they act like their perceptions are novel,
>true, or somehow worth hearing moreso than what we can
>determine ourselves about our condition.
White people just feel the need to be everyone's protector. White people never know how to mind their own business.

_______________________________________
Follow me @bstokessmooth

  

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Bdiddy04
Member since Oct 28th 2004
1578 posts
Mon May-09-05 06:32 PM

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11. "RE: Racist discourse and paternalism."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

^

_______________________________________
Follow me @bstokessmooth

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Mon May-09-05 07:39 PM

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12. "RE: This post is an oxymoron,"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon May-09-05 07:54 PM by BarTek

  

          

>White people commenting on the Black condition.
>
>Where do they think their authority to comment on these things
>comes from? Often, they deem themselves careful observers of
>the community, and would aver that their critical thinking
>skills are enough, coupled with that, to make their opinions
>relevant.

A rather interesting approach, and I agree with you. However, 'authority' is irrelevant. Personally, I never consider authority, or any associated aspect of it, when I make any statement, about any race or condition. I think what you have is, a group of concerned citizens who are willing to look beyond the bubble of their own sociological and cultural existence. A quick look into the Black condition will generate very ignorant conclusions, however, all well intentioned. If a helping hand is offered, it's just that, a helping hand, perhaps, white people who are interested, need some guidance as to how to help? *Waiting for someone to qoute Malcolm.*

>
>That has a grain of truth, but it is very limited for a simple
>reason. In a society dominated by whites, whites who assume
>that their notions of existence are normative, they find it
>difficult to recognize that their opinions shouldn't hold more
>weight. Being white, they feel as though their opinions should
>be the starting point for any conversation about any topic.

This is complete and utter bullshit. I don't think being white has anything to do with opinion and weight. I am white, and I have never in my life, thought that my opinion holds weight above anyone else based on race. I can't imagine how you, as a black individual, can make a sweeping statement about an entire race of white people, when you yourself, are frustrated with the opposite pole of that plane. The oxymoron is here. How can a black man, formulate an opinion about the white race, whom believing his opinion is TRUE, and in turn, then have a problem with white people, formulating opinions about the black race? We are on the same earth, and whether you accept it or not, the Black condition will inspire opinion. We are free thinking beings, and many of us are concerned too. You cannot expect these individuals to just stop thinking do you? I am sure you have many opinions about White people, as you have demonstrated with this post. I am also 110% sure, that many of them are fallacious. I believe so, because you are a black man, and therefore, you will never understand the mind or heart of a white person with clarity and objective truth. In turn, a white person will not understand you. However, I do believe that this only occurs when we lower ourselves to classification and race. If we were to approach eachother with a human perspective, we would find much more similarity than difference.

>
>This hampers any discussion they can try to have about the
>Black condition because they won't release their sense of
>authority on the issues merely by dint of being white.

From my perspective, it would be difficult for me to have a discussion with you, because, you are certain that by me being white, I thus, enter the discussion with an authority complex. When I disagree with black folk, it's not because I believe I have authority to. I disagree when I see a logical fallacy, otherwise, I accept and move on.

>
>And that's why, by and large, White opinions of the Black
>condition hold no weight. We're actual members and
>participants in this community, and don't need outsiders to
>come in and attempt to delineate our problems for us.
>Especially when they act like their perceptions are novel,
>true, or somehow worth hearing moreso than what we can
>determine ourselves about our condition.

Why are some people interested in First Nation's Movements? Why are others interested in child labour? Whether you want to accept it or not, everyone needs help, and everyone needs an outsider's opinion. The White condition needs help, and so does the Black condition. If you are offered an outsider's analysis, you can use it to your advantage, by noting the impression the Black Condition creates in others. Whether or not it may be true, impression's are important in understanding cultural differences. White opinions hold much more weight than you think. If you want to gauge the progress of a movement, or the Black Condition, read a white opinion, and even though you may disagree with it, it will at least equip you with some information and knowledge that you can use to the advantage of the Black Condition.

Finally, are you not, at this moment, taking an authoratative standpoint by claiming that white folks suffer from an authority complex? Think about that one.

Peace.

~
he stood there,
eyes locked on her,
stare irreversible.
her hands over mouth,
she laughs. he smells
her soul,
tames his thoughts,
and hides the want.
- the perfect mistake

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Mon May-09-05 08:41 PM

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16. "RE: Typical ignoramous liberal!"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          


>White people have nothing to offer black people.

I disagree.

White people
>are the cause of many prob;lems.

As are, many other people, from many other races, including black.

The fact that you would
>insinuate that white hold wait when it comes to black issues
>is inherently racist.

You cannot read. I said that white opinion holds weight, as it allows people involved with the Black movement to gauge the impression or progress. Do you actually think a Black movement can occur without major involvement and contribution by white people? You are dreaming. Do you plan to stack arms and take everything by storm?
Good luck.
However, if there was collaboration between concerned citizens, power could be awarded to those who would distribute it equally. White people are vital for this step alone.

The way you equate that with racism, is hilarious to me. You must think everything is racist. You need the kuffi slapped off your head.

No white man's information will help the
>black condition.

Well, No white man's information can help your condition, but, so what?

Peace.



~
he stood there,
eyes locked on her,
stare irreversible.
her hands over mouth,
she laughs. he smells
her soul,
tames his thoughts,
and hides the want.
- the perfect mistake

  

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mad666
Member since May 06th 2005
114 posts
Mon May-09-05 08:44 PM

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17. "RE: Typical ignoramous liberal!"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

>You cannot read. I said that white opinion holds weight, as it
>allows people involved with the Black movement to gauge the
>impression or progress. Do you actually think a Black movement
>can occur without major involvement and contribution by white
>people? You are dreaming. Do you plan to stack arms and take
>everything by storm?
>Good luck.
>However, if there was collaboration between concerned
>citizens, power could be awarded to those who would distribute
>it equally. White people are vital for this step alone.
>
>The way you equate that with racism, is hilarious to me. You
>must think everything is racist. You need the kuffi slapped
>off your head.
>
You white people need to get off your high horse. What is is any of your business the black condition? Black people don't care about white people using club drugs and other devient behavior. YT is vital to nothing. I am sick white liberals thinking because they are liberal they can say anything they want about black people without any retribution. You sir are either racist or stupid.

GAY MEN HAVE NO SOULS.

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Mon May-09-05 09:36 PM

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18. "RE: Typical ignoramous liberal!"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          


>You white people need to get off your high horse.

What high horse? I am trying to build a bridge!

Black people don't
>care about white people using club drugs and other devient
>behavior.

Yes, but black folk care about job discrimination, etc. etc. White's are involved, are they not?!

YT is vital to nothing.

Wrong again kuffi sponsor!

I am sick white liberals

I am sick of ignoramous liberals calling me a liberal! I'm not a liberal! I don't even know what the heck a liberal is!

>thinking because they are liberal they can say anything they
>want about black people without any retribution.

Anything I have said is to the benefit of both you and me. I said "concerned citizen collaboration". I am not saying that you need white people, and that white people are your saving grace, but you will, indeed, have to accept some cooperation from white people who are concerned and willing to help! The only retribution I want to take is on racism, inequality, etc etc. You're not my enemy, but I am yours, and that is cause you are:

> racist & stupid.

Peace

~
he stood there,
eyes locked on her,
stare irreversible.
her hands over mouth,
she laughs. he smells
her soul,
tames his thoughts,
and hides the want.
- the perfect mistake

  

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Bdiddy04
Member since Oct 28th 2004
1578 posts
Mon May-09-05 10:08 PM

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21. "Delete, wrong post"
In response to Reply # 20
Mon May-09-05 10:09 PM by Bdiddy04

  

          

!

_______________________________________
Follow me @bstokessmooth

  

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mad666
Member since May 06th 2005
114 posts
Mon May-09-05 10:10 PM

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22. "RE: Delete, wrong post"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

who are U?

GAY MEN HAVE NO SOULS.

  

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ScooterBj
Member since Apr 29th 2005
2197 posts
Sun May-15-05 05:32 PM

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108. "RE: Typical ignoramous liberal!"
In response to Reply # 17


          

I don't think what he/she (I'm not sure if you are male or female, and I don't want to assume) is saying is stupid nor racist. White people can care about the "black condition" because you don't know what that white person has experienced. Maybe that white person, has a black sister/brother or wife/husband or uncle/aunt or friend.

For you to believe that some white people can't care what goes on with blacks is idiotic. Some people can see past color and care about what goes on in a community that is not their own.

Now, I believe that some whites are arrogant and ignorant. But, not all...and to lump them together is wrong. All black people aren't alike, so why would you believe that this white male or female can't care about the "black condition"?

  

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mad666
Member since May 06th 2005
114 posts
Sun May-15-05 07:21 PM

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110. "RE: Typical ignoramous liberal!"
In response to Reply # 108


  

          

I was talking specifically to Bartek because he is racist. He feels that he is a liberty to dictate black issues and he even argued with another black person over black leaders. I think it is inherently racist to engage in a debate with a black person abvout leadership in the black community and criticize there opinions of black leadership.

GAY MEN HAVE NO SOULS.

  

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Nettrice
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61747 posts
Mon May-09-05 08:03 PM

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13. "What Donald Mercado wrote"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"The difficulty of imagining one's own end forces many white liberal educators who want to invoke the end of oppression to embrace a progressive methodology but not the leading ideas that may make their own end a concrete reality. For this reason, many white educators who deal with "at risk" populations willfully adopt a benevolent methodology but often refuse to engage the theories that inform it."

He goes on the write about "colonists" (or the descendents of colonists) and liberal educators who "shield themselves from self-critical reflection that could interrogate, among other things, how the maintenance of their privilege invariably makes them complicit with the dominant ideology" that maintains the status quo.

I once had the opportunity to discuss a similar topic with the dean of the art history department at my alma mater. Black history existed in the margins of the "canon" or principles generally established as valid and fundamental in the history curriculum. One-on-one he was willing to admit that this was wrong but that, in his position, he felt compelled to support the "fundamentals" that did not include a equal focus on Black history and culture....this means the experts really aren't experts and the teachers really aren't teachers.

>And that's why, by and large, White opinions of the Black
>condition hold no weight. We're actual members and
>participants in this community, and don't need outsiders to
>come in and attempt to delineate our problems for us.
>Especially when they act like their perceptions are novel,
>true, or somehow worth hearing moreso than what we can
>determine ourselves about our condition.

"In essence, educators who refuse to transform the ugliness of human misery, social injustices, and inequalities, invariably become educators for domestication who, as Sartre so poignantly suggested, 'will change nothing and will serve no one...'

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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moot_point
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
3809 posts
Wed May-11-05 06:52 AM

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54. "But surely this is a tick of the university system..."
In response to Reply # 13


          

>"The difficulty of imagining one's own end forces many white
>liberal educators who want to invoke the end of oppression to
>embrace a progressive methodology but not the leading ideas
>that may make their own end a concrete reality. For this
>reason, many white educators who deal with "at risk"
>populations willfully adopt a benevolent methodology but often
>refuse to engage the theories that inform it."
>

which extends beyond the study of race. What gives the middle class professor authority to theorise on the proletariat, the male professor authority to comment on feminism, the English professor a license to critically discuss foreign cultures?

There is a privilege in our universities of 'objectivity' (that is peculiar both to the arts and the sciences) but I believe this notion to be somewhat fallacious. All critical writing is subject to/mediated by the musings of its author.

So what's the solution? Should the criteria by which we judge the validity of opinion be based in part (or even full) on a thinker's background?


>He goes on the write about "colonists" (or the descendents of
>colonists) and liberal educators who "shield themselves from
>self-critical reflection that could interrogate, among other
>things, how the maintenance of their privilege invariably
>makes them complicit with the dominant ideology" that
>maintains the status quo.
>
>I once had the opportunity to discuss a similar topic with the
>dean of the art history department at my alma mater. Black
>history existed in the margins of the "canon" or principles
>generally established as valid and fundamental in the history
>curriculum. One-on-one he was willing to admit that this was
>wrong but that, in his position, he felt compelled to support
>the "fundamentals" that did not include a equal focus on Black
>history and culture....


With respect, I'm not sure if what's written above automatically qualifies what's written below. Notwithstanding an apparent agenda, of which I am aware, surely all syllabi have a limited scope for 'teaching' by virtue of time contraints..?


this means the experts really aren't
>experts and the teachers really aren't teachers.

  

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Nettrice
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Thu May-12-05 09:46 AM

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80. "It goes deeper than that"
In response to Reply # 54
Thu May-12-05 09:48 AM by Nettrice

  

          

>which extends beyond the study of race. What gives the middle
>class professor authority to theorise on the proletariat, the
>male professor authority to comment on feminism, the English
>professor a license to critically discuss foreign cultures?

I ask these questions all the time, once as a student and now as an educator. Paulo Freire answered some of these questions (for me).

>With respect, I'm not sure if what's written above
>automatically qualifies what's written below. Notwithstanding
>an apparent agenda, of which I am aware, surely all syllabi
>have a limited scope for 'teaching' by virtue of time
>contraints..?

Not just time constraints. The Dean, and we got him on tape (secretly), admitted that the canon unfairly positioned white (European) history above all else and this was by design. A many teachers learn, there are standards and teachers-in-training have to learn and adhere to these standards in order to keep their jobs. This is one of the reasons I decided not to teach in public schools. I had a problem with some of the standards, esp. as it related to history, art and culture. College teaching is a lot more flexible. However, there is still an expectation to adhere to a canon.

>this means the experts really aren't
>>experts and the teachers really aren't teachers.

I write this because of this adherence (in academia) to preset standards that position white and European history, art and culture above others. However, it is deeper than that. In not just that white history/culture is seen as the only history/culture. There is a overt agenda that presupposes this superiority and will marginalize or not include the voices, text, and histories of other people. Thus, when white "teachers" (or anyone) attempt to discuss or explore outside of the canon they are only doing so from their position in the social order. They are limited in their ability to teach because they do not realize or are unwilling to admit that they, too, have inherited a reality and view that is far different than some of their students...and even their fellows.

This unwillingness to recognize one's own conditioning (even in academia) is why it is often impossible for white people to relate or relay information to and about people of color (Black people) in a realistic way. Speaking for myself, in school the first thing I learned was that Jane, Dick and Spot lived in a world I was excluded from. It's a slightly different experience for children now but not much. That's 40+ years of conditioning that starts when kids first enter the outside world, as students. This world gets larger as we grow but not the first lessons.

"...my presence in the world is not so much of someone who is merely adapting to something external, but of someone who is inserted as if belonging essentially to it. It's the position of one who struggles to become the subject and maker of history and not simply a passive, disconnected object." - Paulo Freire

As a Black woman (and educator), I recognize the conditions in which we are in generate divisions that make it hard to construct ideas for change and transformation. Like Freire, I know that these obstacles will not last forever. Until then, people have to deal with the divisions and be willing to recognize privilege of the lack of that AND how it effects their views.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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moot_point
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
3809 posts
Thu May-12-05 10:58 AM

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81. "RE: It goes deeper than that"
In response to Reply # 80


          

>I write this because of this adherence (in academia) to preset
>standards that position white and European history, art and
>culture above others. However, it is deeper than that. In
>not just that white history/culture is seen as the only
>history/culture. There is a overt agenda that presupposes
>this superiority and will marginalize or not include the
>voices, text, and histories of other people. Thus, when white
>"teachers" (or anyone) attempt to discuss or explore outside
>of the canon they are only doing so from their position in the
>social order. They are limited in their ability to teach
>because they do not realize or are unwilling to admit that
>they, too, have inherited a reality and view that is far
>different than some of their students...and even their
>fellows.

I believe there ARE voices within academia that subvert the traditional canon, but indeed their faculties are marginalised (even scoffed at) both within and outside the university system. I'm ashamed to admit it, but I now feel embarrassed telling people I studied culture at university.

>
>This unwillingness to recognize one's own conditioning (even
>in academia) is why it is often impossible for white people to
>relate or relay information to and about people of color
>(Black people) in a realistic way. Speaking for myself, in
>school the first thing I learned was that Jane, Dick and Spot
>lived in a world I was excluded from. It's a slightly
>different experience for children now but not much. That's
>40+ years of conditioning that starts when kids first enter
>the outside world, as students. This world gets larger as we
>grow but not the first lessons.


I accept this. There is always going to be a certain disparity. However, are black males and white males (for example) not conditioned in similar ways, in terms of class and gender? How much significance is there (or ought there be) in the conditioning between different colours?

>
>"...my presence in the world is not so much of someone who is
>merely adapting to something external, but of someone who is
>inserted as if belonging essentially to it. It's the position
>of one who struggles to become the subject and maker of
>history and not simply a passive, disconnected object." -
>Paulo Freire
>
>As a Black woman (and educator), I recognize the conditions in
>which we are in generate divisions that make it hard to
>construct ideas for change and transformation. Like Freire, I
>know that these obstacles will not last forever. Until then,
>people have to deal with the divisions and be willing to
>recognize privilege of the lack of that AND how it effects
>their views.

You are optimistic. How do you foresee change?

  

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Nettrice
Charter member
61747 posts
Thu May-12-05 11:37 AM

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82. "RE: It goes deeper than that"
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

>I believe there ARE voices within academia that subvert the
>traditional canon, but indeed their faculties are marginalised
>(even scoffed at) both within and outside the university
>system. I'm ashamed to admit it, but I now feel embarrassed
>telling people I studied culture at university.

Don't be embarrassed. It's the faculty who are unwilling to recognize this who should be embarrassed.

>>That's
>>40+ years of conditioning that starts when kids first enter
>>the outside world, as students. This world gets larger as
>we
>>grow but not the first lessons.
>
>
>I accept this. There is always going to be a certain
>disparity. However, are black males and white males (for
>example) not conditioned in similar ways, in terms of class
>and gender?

The message is similar but how we receive it, how it affects and influences our p.o.v. is very different. Something worth remembering (for the rest of my life) happened to me in the 1st and 2nd grades. I rebelled. Now, I did not strike a teacher or disrupt the class. I went to my mother and she empowered me in her way to act on what I perceived as injustice in the school/classroom. The first time she came to the school and took care of it. I noticed how the teacher's interaction with me changed. The next time I protested right in front of the school. I barely remember the details but I can recall that the administrators told me I was wrong and I disagreed. I remember my mother coming to see what was up and leaving me where I lay (in the street) to continue my protest. I was protesting the teacher's methods. The next day I cut classes and soon I was transferred. I never forgot being a scared little kid and feeling empowered to do something about my education. Unfortunately, this is not the case for so many Black kids.

>How much significance is there (or ought there be)
>in the conditioning between different colours?

The one thing I was not aware of back then was racism. I knew I was a smart Black girl who loved to draw but I did not know about racism. I just knew something was wrong. The teachers were being unfair to me, there was something wrong with seeing Jane run, and I didn't understand what was going on. I knew I had to act. My mother's action (or inaction) when I rebelled in the early years was different from her peers. My mother was often criticized for her methods but we continued to excel...and stand up for ourselves in class and later in our work. Rebellion was wrong. The behavior was punished and soon kids just started getting along...but at what cost? That is why I always bring up the pygmalion effect or self-fufilling prophecy because at some point kids begin to adjust their behavior to meet a certain expectation.

It was not easy for me or my sister and there were consequences for our actions as far as getting acceptance and support. All kids want to belong and be rewarded. Teachers often play a game that only creates or maintains divisions later on. This is supported by many parents who came out of the same system as the teachers. IMHO the whole system needs an overhaul but especially how Black children and students are treated in the classroom...or at home.

>Until
>then,
>>people have to deal with the divisions and be willing to
>>recognize privilege of the lack of that AND how it effects
>>their views.
>
>You are optimistic. How do you foresee change?

I am optimistic and I have the patience of Job. We are in the midst of a third regulatory phase in telecommunications, in the midst of a war and economic draft, and an overhaul in education precipitated by government (not local or state) intervention (and funding). Something has to give and soon! I prefer to think that people will wake up and take action. I have always been an optimist. I believe in true democracy, not what the government calls freedom. Change is inevitable. People can be taught or shown how to be proactive but it takes a concerted effort.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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mad666
Member since May 06th 2005
114 posts
Mon May-09-05 08:10 PM

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14. "RE: Racist discourse and paternalism."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

This is why i hate white liberals. White people think they can look at some otther culture's experience and have a thought on it. I don't even listen to white people when they comment on anything black.

GAY MEN HAVE NO SOULS.

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Mon May-09-05 10:42 PM

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25. "RE: ahh..peace"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon May-09-05 10:43 PM by BarTek

  

          

~
he stood there,
eyes locked on her,
stare irreversible.
her hands over mouth,
she laughs. he smells
her soul,
tames his thoughts,
and hides the want.
- the perfect mistake

  

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Cocobrotha2
Charter member
9246 posts
Mon May-09-05 10:50 PM

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26. "Wait, are black people capable of being self normative?"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon May-09-05 10:52 PM by Cocobrotha2

          

Wow, I don't think you get the extent of what you're saying.

White people aren't the only ones that think their existence is normative. I'm certain at some point in your life, you've thought "This isn't what it's like back in my neighborhood/house". At some point you were struck by how different things can be from what you thought was normal.... i.e. you've though self-normatively.

The whole point of your post though is that white people can't talk about black people bc white people tend to speak from a self-normative viewpoint. Well, if you're also self-normative (as I believe you are), what gives you the authority to talk about the "white condition"?

I knwo this a popular argument and I agree it's sorta correct though narrowly attributed to just one group. Maybe it's more noticeable when someone else does it, but any human being with a healthy ego is going to occasionally think that they're views are "normal". So I think it's foolish to basically attribute a certain trait to someone else while you're guilty yourself... i.e. You're the pot calling the kettle black.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Mon May-09-05 10:57 PM

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27. "RE: and that's what i was saying...but because im white..hatorade..."
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

thanks for breaking that down.

peace
~
he stood there,
eyes locked on her,
stare irreversible.
her hands over mouth,
she laughs. he smells
her soul,
tames his thoughts,
and hides the want.
- the perfect mistake

  

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Cocobrotha2
Charter member
9246 posts
Mon May-09-05 11:14 PM

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28. "Considering the topic, you shoulda expected your argument to be moot"
In response to Reply # 27


          

But I fall into these dumb-ass arguments too often also.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Mon May-09-05 11:15 PM

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29. "RE: Considering the topic, you shoulda expected your argument to be moot"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

why does it happen?

peace
~
he stood there,
eyes locked on her,
stare irreversible.
her hands over mouth,
she laughs. he smells
her soul,
tames his thoughts,
and hides the want.
- the perfect mistake

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6561 posts
Tue May-10-05 01:16 PM

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35. "I'll help you out BarTek"
In response to Reply # 29
Tue May-10-05 01:32 PM by brokenchains79

  

          

Black folks are in a particular position, whether we are right or wrong we are coming from a place you are not coming from. I.E. Black communities were being terrorized in the 70's (well since we been here) so a group of Black decided to arms themselves and fight Back. You can have your opinion but what does it mean to someone on the front line, nothing! If you want to help from your position, you look at what causes Black folks to arm themselves, we'll assume we agree it is white supremacy, from your position you attack white supremacy the best way you can. From your position, do not tell Black people what is appropriate behavior as you have done several times in your "Black revolutionary post". That's where you go wrong. If someone rapes your wife, can i tell you how you should go about it? I might have some insight, but that is your wife and your situation. Know when to sit back and know where your input is not wanted. Wait until you are asked. Or show how your goals are the same and you can work together in a cooperative capacity, not stepping on the toes of the people you are trying to work with. I'm not going to argue this, it is what it is.

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Tue May-10-05 06:43 PM

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40. "RE: I'll help you out BarTek"
In response to Reply # 35
Tue May-10-05 06:46 PM by BarTek

  

          

>Black folks are in a particular position, whether we are
>right or wrong we are coming from a place you are not coming
>from. I.E. Black communities were being terrorized in the 70's
>(well since we been here) so a group of Black decided to arms
>themselves and fight Back. You can have your opinion but what
>does it mean to someone on the front line, nothing! If you
>want to help from your position, you look at what causes Black
>folks to arm themselves, we'll assume we agree it is white
>supremacy, from your position you attack white supremacy the
>best way you can.

I see what you are saying and I agree with you. I do think I am on the front line, but, the pole is different; I am a white male fighting against white supremacy/racism, and also fighting against black supremacy/racism. What I mean is, I am also fighting against those which believe that the white man is evil. I am trying to open a dialouge with those people, so that I can demonstrate with myself, and many others like me, that white people can be very useful in a positive way. I think my efforts, and those who share my opinions are important. We are trying to forge a peaceful bridge between ourselves and the hardest black revolutionary, so that when the movement does appear, and I believe it will. It will involve, not only black, but white people too, and not only black & white, but many others. I'll be honest with you, I think the cultural mixing that has been occuring, is preparing everyone for a movement that incorporates us all, against the evils of power corruption, greed, inequality, injustice, and racism.


From your position, do not tell Black people
>what is appropriate behavior as you have done several times in
>your "Black revolutionary post". That's where you go wrong.

Okay, I understand you. Let me clarify that. Whatever I have said about behaviour associated with revolution, stems from movements and thought exploration developed and explored by any people who are, and have been involved with revolution, no matter what the color, or the race. I am not trying to tell "Black" people what to do in a revolution. What I am trying to do is, offer any insight I can to a revolutionary group of "people". The race is irrelevant here. I am chasing the methodology, and the means, to a peaceful end. Also, I have been very careful about those posts, and I never said, "You have to do this, or that, and that's my word.", I have said, "I don't see that working, because of factors X. It may be possible to achieve the same goal, by taking factors Y into account.", and once again, I base those observations on my understanding of revolutionary movements. I am only trying to challenge you, because I believe in it. I have to play devil's advocate (how ironic), so that when the movement does emerge, it will work, and no life will be lost. Maybe those are foolish and idealistic dreams, but I do believe it is possible.

If
>someone rapes your wife, can i tell you how you should go
>about it? I might have some insight, but that is your wife and
>your situation. Know when to sit back and know where your
>input is not wanted. Wait until you are asked.

I would never be asked, we both know that. I never intend to pry, I truly don't. For some reason, my mind stays focused on the black movement, and I can explain why. I believe that black people's innovation, and exploration of music, poetry, dance, etc. will be the vehicle for a global change. I myself write and record conscious Hip Hop. English is my second language, but I have been inspired, by black people, to fight against injustice, using black innovation and music. Perhaps, my mind stays focused, and searching for solutions, because I am so in love with black culture. I know I am white, but I am flexible with myself, I will adopt anything, from any culture to enhance me, and it just so happens that black culture is ample with many qualities which I have found to be natural and positive.

Or show how
>your goals are the same and you can work together in a
>cooperative capacity, not stepping on the toes of the people
>you are trying to work with. I'm not going to argue this, it
>is what it is.

Agreed. Well, as I mentioned. Perhaps, there needs to be some type of guideline for how white people can help beyond "we'll call you when we need it", because I honestly think you need all the help that is being offered, and that is not to say that you are in any way less capable, however, I am able to be white, and I am able to look at things through a white, or even a white supremacist racist type of way. I know how those minds work, I've met plenty, and whatever I learn or observe, I gauge against several perspectives to find a thread amongst them all to focus on and follow. I am able to view the world differently to you, and you can view it differently to me, but, I do think that if we share the information, we can find a solution. I can write a post at what I really think the white supremacist think of black people, and it's pretty disturbing stuff, much of which I am sure you are aware of. I am trying to fight those things. I am also trying to offer insight, and only that, just insight. Sometimes an outsiders perspective can be very useful, as I am not black, and thus I do not feel the pain that you must feel. I don't think rational choices are made when they are mixed with highly emotional movements. Peace is the objective, without fighting. I don't know if you think that is possible or not, I do.

Thank you for responding. I hope I didn't offend you, because I'd love to read your response to what I wrote. If I am once again mistaken in your eyes, show me where and I will retrace my thought patterns if need be. Peace


~
he stood there,
eyes locked on her,
stare irreversible.
her hands over mouth,
she laughs. he smells
her soul,
tames his thoughts,
and hides the want.
- the perfect mistake

  

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mad666
Member since May 06th 2005
114 posts
Tue May-10-05 07:19 PM

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43. "RE: I'll help you out BarTek"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          



>I would never be asked, we both know that. I never intend to
>pry, I truly don't. For some reason, my mind stays focused on
>the black movement, and I can explain why. I believe that
>black people's innovation, and exploration of music, poetry,
>dance, etc. will be the vehicle for a global change. I myself
>write and record conscious Hip Hop. English is my second
>language, but I have been inspired, by black people, to fight
>against injustice, using black innovation and music. Perhaps,
>my mind stays focused, and searching for solutions, because I
>am so in love with black culture. I know I am white, but I am
>flexible with myself, I will adopt anything, from any culture
>to enhance me, and it just so happens that black culture is
>ample with many qualities which I have found to be natural and
>positive.
This right here is some sick shit. You are white.

GAY MEN HAVE NO SOULS.

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Tue May-10-05 07:40 PM

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45. "RE: That right there is..."
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

progressive thinking. just as some individuals adopt many aspects of many religions, i will adopt many aspects of many cultures. even nas, a black man, has used lines such as: "i'm all races in one man". is he sick too? or does this only apply to white people?

peace.
~
he stood there,
eyes locked on her,
stare irreversible.
her hands over mouth,
she laughs. he smells
her soul,
tames his thoughts,
and hides the want.
- the perfect mistake

  

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mad666
Member since May 06th 2005
114 posts
Tue May-10-05 09:05 PM

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48. "RE: That right there is..."
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

Get over your black people fetish. This is why everybody on this site hates you.

GAY MEN HAVE NO SOULS.

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6561 posts
Tue May-10-05 10:50 PM

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50. "That's the problem, you're not on the frontline!"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

There is no way possible you can be on the frontline in the context I used. It would mean that you was born and you will die Black, your history and ancestors are Black. This does not come through activity with Black people, this just makes you a white liberal, or in some cases white radical that sympathizes with the condition of Blacks. The key difference is, Blacks as a people are terrorized and subject to death for simply being Black, the only time you are subject to death is for helping. By making a choice, not doing anything special but being a decent human being by acknowledging the lack of humanity that has been perpetuated by your very own people. Black people have been the most humanistic, therefore if you feel the need to help anyone you need to begin with your fellow Europeans.


>I see what you are saying and I agree with you. I do think I am on
> the front line, but, the pole is different; I am a white male
>fighting against white supremacy/racism. and also fighting against black supremacy/racism.

Problem #1. Black Supremacy does not exist. Even if you look at the most brutal beating whites had by the hands of Blacks it was Black defending themselves against aggressors. See the Haitian revolution. You are using a term coined by White liberals, the very thing you say you are not.

>What I mean is, I am also fighting against those which believe that
> the white man is evil.

Black folks have treated whites better than whites have treated whites, you're polish ancestry? Then you should know the deal.
If your goal is to change the way blacks view whites then you're on a dead mission, because you are a white person telling us how we should see you.. That is riddled with problems

>I am not trying to tell "Black" people what to do in a revolution.
>What I am trying to do is, offer any insight I can to a
>revolutionary group of "people". The race is irrelevant here.

That's another major problem I have with white liberals, the need to always denounce race/ethnicity. If you know anything about Black revolutionary history then you will know there are cultural component to it that makes race an issue. There is extensive literature. This can't even be discussed if you think this is some colorbline humanistic mission. You can not take people's culture away from them in any aspect. Don't retort, study.

>I am chasing the methodology, and the means, to a peaceful end.

There is no African culture that I know of that is embedded with the eventual armageddon of the world. Your battle is with your people.


>Also, I have been very careful about those posts, and I never
> said, "You have to do this, or that, and that's my word.", I have
> said, "I don't see that working, because of factors X. It may be
> possible to achieve the same goal, by taking factors Y into
>account.", and once again, I base those observations on my
>understanding of revolutionary movements. I am only trying to
>challenge you, because I believe in it. I have to play devil's
>advocate (how ironic), so that when the movement does emerge, it
>will work, and no life will be lost. Maybe those are foolish and
>idealistic dreams, but I do believe it is possible.

Do you even know what the revolution is all about? Folks aren't picking up rifles for the purposes starting a revolution. The baattle right now is for the mind of African people to move in a direction to guarantee our survival in a world where Pan-Europeanism is real, Pan-Asianism is real, and Pan-Africanism must be real and operational. What you are trying to push falls outside of all those ideologies, if you want to change anyone of them, start with White Nationalism.

If
>someone rapes your wife, can i tell you how you should go
>about it? I might have some insight, but that is your wife and
>your situation. Know when to sit back and know where your
>input is not wanted. Wait until you are asked.

>I would never be asked, we both know that. I never intend to pry, I
>truly don't. For some reason, my mind stays focused on the black
>movement, and I can explain why.

No explanation needed, The Black movement is the Black movement. If you love the music so much go join the hip hop movement. Black people are talking about world markets based on African culture, you talkin something else. There are several Pan-African convenings every year. They not talkin about what you talkin about. You not in this. When it's time for alliances, have your group together.

Or show how
>your goals are the same and you can work together in a
>cooperative capacity, not stepping on the toes of the people
>you are trying to work with. I'm not going to argue this, it
>is what it is.

>Agreed. Well, as I mentioned. Perhaps, there needs to be some type
> of guideline for how white people can help beyond "we'll call you
> when we need it",

Yall can help by getting off our ass, look at it this way. If Blacks raise guns to aggressive whites, RACE WAR! But if whites raise guns to aggressive whites, you are doing alot! Be content with that, but that's not as easy and alot more dangerous than advising Blacks.


*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Wed May-11-05 12:38 AM

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53. "RE: That's the problem, you're not on the frontline!"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

First off. Thank you.

>There is no way possible you can be on the frontline in the
>context I used. It would mean that you was born and you will
>die Black, your history and ancestors are Black.

I know. However, I have my own white agenda to follow, and I will die white. Have you thought about, what it is to represent a definition that I have learned here, about white people? It truly makes the white race seem evil, doesn't it? It is sickening to me. I mean, there are even spiritual explanations, biblical, etc etc. The ironic thing is that both black and white people fight to redefine a definition another race holds over them. I'm referring to; '1/5th human being' versus 'devil'. I honestly, don't know what to tell you about what white people have done. It seems to me, that white people are doing what other races are doing, but on a larger scale. There is the question of history then, and there is a longer history of white oppression. I don't know what to tell you, my instincts tell me to say that those that have built the foundation and maintain it, will pay.

This does not
>come through activity with Black people, this just makes you a
>white liberal, or in some cases white radical that sympathizes
>with the condition of Blacks.

I am not speaking about activity with black people as in friendship, I am speaking about how conflict unfolds, etc. the methodology behind revolutions. activities of peoples under those forms of oppression. You know, this form of oppression has been defeated already, on a smaller scale, but it has been done.

The key difference is, Blacks as
>a people are terrorized and subject to death for simply being
>Black, the only time you are subject to death is for helping.
>By making a choice, not doing anything special but being a
>decent human being by acknowledging the lack of humanity that
>has been perpetuated by your very own people. Black people
>have been the most humanistic, therefore if you feel the need
>to help anyone you need to begin with your fellow Europeans.

I hear you. I am trying my best to help, but I am also trying to stick around to see it. There is a movement of people who are arming themselves in a system which orchestrates opression. Many of them are my friends, and their motives, are not different to ours. Each wants to see an end to supremacy, imperialism, racism, etc. Work is being done. The beginning is already here, and we just need time to step up a ladder in a system that we can take some control of.

>
>Problem #1. Black Supremacy does not exist. Even if you look
>at the most brutal beating whites had by the hands of Blacks
>it was Black defending themselves against aggressors. See the
>Haitian revolution. You are using a term coined by White
>liberals, the very thing you say you are not.
>

Okay. I understand now why I am called a liberal. I don't know anything that liberals write or say, but how can I avoid using the same words? Often, my intended meaning is different. Also, I think this extends beyond violence, and I understand why you chose to cite violence as the example. Anything begins with thought, and I have come across black folks who are convinced of the very same things, that white supremist's are, but the enemy is obviously the opposite. Maybe that form of hate is a white disease, and should be left as such. Under a system built on those thought patterns, how can you not expect to share similarities in the extreme? However, I do agree with you, that black people in the United States are humanistic on a level that most white people cannot even comprehend.


>Black folks have treated whites better than whites have
>treated whites, you're polish ancestry? Then you should know
>the deal.

Word, and you should also know that Polish people fought against black slavery. I know I got that blood in me. I also know the suffering caused by other white people, and that is also an example of why not all white people are born the same. I am always perceptive of everything which is destructive and oppresive to others, especially because I am white. I can see that code and as I mentioned, others do too, and they are doing something about it.

>If your goal is to change the way blacks view whites then
>you're on a dead mission, because you are a white person
>telling us how we should see you.. That is riddled with
>problems
>

Hmm. I am working towards a variant definition, because there is one. Yes I will be white, but I won't be that type of white.

>
>That's another major problem I have with white liberals, the
>need to always denounce race/ethnicity. If you know anything
>about Black revolutionary history then you will know there are
>cultural component to it that makes race an issue. There is
>extensive literature. This can't even be discussed if you
>think this is some colorbline humanistic mission. You can not
>take people's culture away from them in any aspect. Don't
>retort, study.

I hear you on this point as well. However, race was also an issue in other movements as well. I don't think as potent, but it is present. I don't think its colorblind, but I also don't think its at the extreme where no other factors of revolution apply. I'll do my best to contribute what I can, and the rest can be ignored. Thanks for helping me understand that though.


>There is no African culture that I know of that is embedded
>with the eventual armageddon of the world. Your battle is with
>your people.
>

Sig worthy.


>
>Do you even know what the revolution is all about? Folks
>aren't picking up rifles for the purposes starting a
>revolution. The baattle right now is for the mind of African
>people to move in a direction to guarantee our survival in a
>world where Pan-Europeanism is real, Pan-Asianism is real, and
>Pan-Africanism must be real and operational. What you are
>trying to push falls outside of all those ideologies, if you
>want to change anyone of them, start with White Nationalism.
>

I understand.

>
>No explanation needed, The Black movement is the Black
>movement. If you love the music so much go join the hip hop
>movement.

The Hip Hop movement was the gateway for me, and it's a gateway for others too.

Black people are talking about world markets based
>on African culture, you talkin something else. There are
>several Pan-African convenings every year. They not talkin
>about what you talkin about. You not in this. When it's time
>for alliances, have your group together.

Right on.


>
>Yall can help by getting off our ass, look at it this way. If
>Blacks raise guns to aggressive whites, RACE WAR!

This is exactly the reason why I oppose those that are convinced that white's should be wiped out, the very same reason why I pry. In my opinion, it is a race war that black folks would lose. Who holds their hand on the buttons of the big guns? and the power to use them? and the technology? Those evils have to implode. They are too powerful to be beaten off by force, and must be destroyed from within.

But if
>whites raise guns to aggressive whites, you are doing alot! Be
>content with that, but that's not as easy and alot more
>dangerous than advising Blacks.

Media is a good indication of this possibility, especially, if a large number of white's can identify with the propoganda being used at the moment.

Peace.


~
he stood there,
eyes locked on her,
stare irreversible.
her hands over mouth,
she laughs. he smells
her soul,
tames his thoughts,
and hides the want.
- the perfect mistake

  

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mad666
Member since May 06th 2005
114 posts
Wed May-11-05 07:08 AM

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56. "RE: That's the problem, you're not on the frontline!"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

read his reply again. Black people don't need you being a vulture to our culture be white.

GAY MEN HAVE NO SOULS.

  

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Cocobrotha2
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Tue May-10-05 01:36 PM

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37. "I dunno the original poster's motivation"
In response to Reply # 29


          

But you're known on OKP as the white guy who posts about the black experience so it seems this was directed at someone just like you.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
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Cre8
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Tue May-10-05 09:29 AM

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30. "but isn't being 'Black' the meat of discussion"
In response to Reply # 26
Tue May-10-05 09:30 AM by Cre8

  

          

and dealing with issues concerning Blacks in general?
If a discussion on how to better black families was made, wouldn't it seem more fit for the Huxtibles and Evans to discuss issues/find solutions compared to the Cunninghams given their insight on something that doesn't and never will have anything to do with them?

Now if its a discussion on a universal topic versus a particular group of people, then everybodies opinion would hold similar weight, but I can't see me throwing my two cents in a discussion on how the Eskimos could better their community. And when was the last time non-whites engaged in a conversation on how to better white communities? Can't help but be suspicious about their motives.

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Cocobrotha2
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Tue May-10-05 01:16 PM

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34. "RE: but isn't being 'Black' the meat of discussion"
In response to Reply # 30


          

>>and dealing with issues concerning Blacks in general?
>If a discussion on how to better black families was made,
>wouldn't it seem more fit for the Huxtibles and Evans to
>discuss issues/find solutions compared to the Cunninghams
>given their insight on something that doesn't and never will
>have anything to do with them?

I think the last part of your scenario is false but it's an assumption that many people make. There *are white people that experience (and some surmount) bad credit, illegitimate children, problems with crime, etc.

In a discussion about those issues, they have more clout than a black or white family that's experienced none of those issues. The important factor isn't their race but their experience.

Also, people seem to believe that you have to experience the WHOLE condition in order to have any clout on some on the minor issues. The more experience the better for familiarity's sake but it's not necessary. A financial advisor can help you improve your finances without understanding "how the breakdown of the black family structure influenced your decision to have a child before you were finanicially ready".

You might feel more comfortable with an advisor that shares your views, but he's likely giving you the same advice he'd give anyone else in your financial condition, no matter the historical influences.

>Now if its a discussion on a universal topic versus a
>particular group of people, then everybodies opinion would
>hold similar weight, but I can't see me throwing my two cents
>in a discussion on how the Eskimos could better their
>community.

If you have experience in any issue that concerns them, you're 2 cents are 2 cents closer to a solution.

>And when was the last time non-whites engaged in a
>conversation on how to better white communities? Can't help
>but be suspicious about their motives.
>

Our communities are usually worse off so the dynamic is primarily them helping us while we help ourselves. Personally, I have no problem with who comes up with a solution as long as I feel it's contructive.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

  

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Cre8
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Tue May-10-05 05:46 PM

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38. "then why not just take 'Black' out the equation?"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

If I go to a financial advisor, I would hope my skin color is the last issue they're trying to deal with.

It seems like some black folks are afraid to guard issues that deal with being BLACK (don't add), as if theres some need for 'others' input. If an Eskimo community is discussing issues pertaining to their traditions, philosophies and other cultural beliefs...where does my 2cent fit in?

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Cocobrotha2
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Tue May-10-05 09:17 PM

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49. "RE: then why not just take 'Black' out the equation?"
In response to Reply # 38


          

>If I go to a financial advisor, I would hope my skin color is
>the last issue they're trying to deal with.

I made that example to target the whole "we must fix our own house first" mentality that's related to this whole discussion.

There are many issues that face black people but they don't all have racially-centered solutions. Financial empowerment was just an example of such an issue.


>It seems like some black folks are afraid to guard issues that
>deal with being BLACK (don't add), as if theres some need for
>'others' input. If an Eskimo community is discussing issues
>pertaining to their traditions, philosophies and other
>cultural beliefs...where does my 2cent fit in?
>

But we're not talking about traditions, philosophies, and other personal beliefs. As chillsm00th said, the issue is others coming in and delineating our problems for us and prescribing solutions.

If the problem is how we see and treat each other as black people, then that should primarily be a black discussion. But if it's other issues that impact the rest of society, though to a diffrent degree, I don't think we should throw it on our backs as OUR problem.

Consumerism is an issue for all Americans... yet we accept ourselves being portrayed as the poster child and chastize each other over it as if it's our individual burden. The rest of society walks away, wiping their hands of their complicity and judges us on our ability to solve "our problems". But we're not going to solve most of "our problems" (illegitimacy, criminality, etc) without fundamentally changing American culture so the rest of American society should participate.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

  

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Cre8
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Wed May-11-05 09:54 AM

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61. "RE: then why not just take 'Black' out the equation?"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

Considering the undertable rules set against blacks (i.e. higher bank loan interest rates, low education funding & failure set-ups) it honestly does not make sense to have open discussions with those that set the rules. If anything we need to have close knit discussions with those that played by the rules and still won. Thats not to say we can't hold healthy conversations on the basics of the game with others, but to openly discuss how we plan to make 'it' work for US (BLACK FOLKS) is social suicide.
Sad to say but we are the bottom barrel, even if those on top were to give positive insight, they are NOT going to risk loosing their top spot to help our black asses along. If anything, you should question what the person offering insight stands to loose/gain and what has inspired them to contribute in the first place.

Also I have yet to hear any white person offer significant insight on bettering the black community that did not better them more, and most times that 'good' insight only left us leaning on them for more.
Do correct me if I'm wrong.

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Cocobrotha2
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Wed May-11-05 04:31 PM

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68. "RE: then why not just take 'Black' out the equation?"
In response to Reply # 61
Wed May-11-05 04:46 PM by Cocobrotha2

          

>Considering the undertable rules set against blacks (i.e.
>higher bank loan interest rates, low education funding &
>failure set-ups) it honestly does not make sense to have open
>discussions with those that set the rules. If anything we need
>to have close knit discussions with those that played by the
>rules and still won.

Openly discussing and attacking the blatantly racist rules of the past is what got them dismantled. What persists are continuing personal and group prejudices that aren't expressly codified but are passed subtly amongst the ruling group in discussions amongst themselves. Inserting the truth into their discussions is more effective than repeating the truth amongst ourselves.

For instance: We can internally discuss how to solidify you financial life to the point that you deserve the best interest rates on a loan. If the loan officer still thinks you don't deserve the best rate, only bc of prejudices passed around his group, all of our coaching is useless.

> Thats not to say we can't hold healthy
>conversations on the basics of the game with others, but to
>openly discuss how we plan to make 'it' work for US (BLACK
>FOLKS) is social suicide.

I believe there's a standard formula for success here .. i.e. the people that are successful here (financially, socially, etc) tend to do the same things, even wen they come from different cultures. Maybe there's a black spin on it, but I have a feeling it'll mostly be the same as what everyone else has done.

Now, much of our community would consider that "selling out". But truth be told, the other groups that come here (and many of us look to as examples for maintaining their heritage AND succeeding) are the biggest "sellouts" in this nation. Think about it...

+They left their "hood" for our deluxe country on the west-side (of the earth).
+Sure, they keep some of their old traditions but they invariably change their bahavior to fit in better.
+They kick some money home but nothing really improves at home (that's why they stay here).
+And though some people are proud of their accomplishments, many are jealous that they're still stuck in the hood they grew up in.

If the hood does improve, thouggh, it's invariably through the hard work of those that were still at home uplifting themselves. Eventually that starts to attract their countrymen back (see Ethiopia, India, Korea) bc they now feel their country is moving in the same direction they are.

Examples are out there, yet we're supposed to sit with blinders on and re-invent the wheel.

>Sad to say but we are the bottom barrel, even if those on top
>were to give positive insight, they are NOT going to risk
>loosing their top spot to help our black asses along. If
>anything, you should question what the person offering insight
>stands to loose/gain and what has inspired them to contribute
>in the first place.

Despite the fact many people feel it is, this does not have to be a zero sum game. I mean, there are some teams or companies where it's everybody for themselves but that's not how the whole or even most of the corporate world acts.

To extend the analogy, everyone doesn't look at our upliftment as their downfall. I will admit there are those that do but they are slowly fading away.

>Also I have yet to hear any white person offer significant
>insight on bettering the black community that did not better
>them more, and most times that 'good' insight only left us
>leaning on them for more.
>Do correct me if I'm wrong.

I can't account for your experiences. The only white people I know that comment on the black community to me are those that are already deep in the black community... and they're usually saying the same things other black people are saying.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

  

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Cre8
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Wed May-11-05 06:59 PM

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71. "RE: then why not just take 'Black' out the equation?"
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

>>Considering the undertable rules set against blacks (i.e.
>>higher bank loan interest rates, low education funding &
>>failure set-ups) it honestly does not make sense to have
>open
>>discussions with those that set the rules. If anything we
>need
>>to have close knit discussions with those that played by the
>>rules and still won.
>
>Openly discussing and attacking the blatantly racist rules of
>the past is what got them dismantled. What persists are
>continuing personal and group prejudices that aren't expressly
>codified but are passed subtly amongst the ruling group in
>discussions amongst themselves. Inserting the truth into their
>discussions is more effective than repeating the truth amongst
>ourselves.
>
>For instance: We can internally discuss how to solidify you
>financial life to the point that you deserve the best interest
>rates on a loan. If the loan officer still thinks you don't
>deserve the best rate, only bc of prejudices passed around his
>group, all of our coaching is useless.

And see this is what I'm tryna get at. If the loan officer tells me no and tells my white neighbor yes, I'll be ready to holla racism, HOWEVER if the same loan officer that told me no tells my black neighbor yes, I'll be more open to finding out why I didn't get the loan and asking my black neighbor how did they go about getting theirs. Granted that sounds bogus, but I'm able to rule out a lot of bs when discussing issue that may be race related...talking to a white person about how they got their loan will only help so much and if after applying the same effort I don't get positive results, I can validate my race cry, but why, just to prove the establishment is racist? I don't have time for that shit, so it would suit me best to push that aside and ask someone who perhaps got over that hurdle in advance so I can do the same. Therefore if my effort is shot I know its me and therefore will work on me...not trying to get some civilrights law suit going.
Funny thing is that back in the day, Blacks could only turn to blacks for constructive info and we owned more then than we do now. Why is that?
>
>> Thats not to say we can't hold healthy
>>conversations on the basics of the game with others, but to
>>openly discuss how we plan to make 'it' work for US (BLACK
>>FOLKS) is social suicide.
>
>I believe there's a standard formula for success here .. i.e.
>the people that are successful here (financially, socially,
>etc) tend to do the same things, even wen they come from
>different cultures. Maybe there's a black spin on it, but I
>have a feeling it'll mostly be the same as what everyone else
>has done.
>
The Black Spin is what I'm aiming for, because I've already come to the realization that my skin color will be a factor at some point, why would I ignore it?

>Now, much of our community would consider that "selling out".
>But truth be told, the other groups that come here (and many
>of us look to as examples for maintaining their heritage AND
>succeeding) are the biggest "sellouts" in this nation. Think
>about it...
>
>+They left their "hood" for our deluxe country on the
>west-side (of the earth).
>+Sure, they keep some of their old traditions but they
>invariably change their bahavior to fit in better.
>+They kick some money home but nothing really improves at home
>(that's why they stay here).
>+And though some people are proud of their accomplishments,
>many are jealous that they're still stuck in the hood they
>grew up in.
>
What exactly would we consider "selling out"?

>If the hood does improve, thouggh, it's invariably through the
>hard work of those that were still at home uplifting
>themselves. Eventually that starts to attract their countrymen
>back (see Ethiopia, India, Korea) bc they now feel their
>country is moving in the same direction they are.
>
>Examples are out there, yet we're supposed to sit with
>blinders on and re-invent the wheel.
>
No bodies talking about re-inventing the wheel, but about seeing and understanding whats out there and NOT being afraid to discuss that info and most of all the info from your own community amongst those that make up your community. Theres no need to go searching for information outside your community when their are folks right next door setting positive examples. That's like driven to some white burbs for a pair of shoes when the Black owned store around the corner has the same shoe for a lessor price.

>>Sad to say but we are the bottom barrel, even if those on
>top
>>were to give positive insight, they are NOT going to risk
>>loosing their top spot to help our black asses along. If
>>anything, you should question what the person offering
>insight
>>stands to loose/gain and what has inspired them to
>contribute
>>in the first place.
>
>Despite the fact many people feel it is, this does not have to
>be a zero sum game. I mean, there are some teams or companies
>where it's everybody for themselves but that's not how the
>whole or even most of the corporate world acts.
>
U can't be serious. There's not a company I know who's top execs are willing to give fair play to ground workers. A good example is the United Airlines issue. They'd rather pay pilots minimum wage w/ only dental benefits if they can continue living it up while supplying passengers with video game equipment on flights...hell them bastards aren't even willing to better the safety of planes for fear of cost and loosing their plush lifestyles. Ha, and you think the US could give more of a damn?

>To extend the analogy, everyone doesn't look at our upliftment
>as their downfall. I will admit there are those that do but
>they are slowly fading away.
>
It aint fading fast enough. Drugs are still a heavy issue in the Black community, not to mention other things. It continues to exist in our communities for the sole purpose of control and its just as vivid today as it was in the 80's. We've just learned to adapt.

>>Also I have yet to hear any white person offer significant
>>insight on bettering the black community that did not better
>>them more, and most times that 'good' insight only left us
>>leaning on them for more.
>>Do correct me if I'm wrong.
>
>I can't account for your experiences. The only white people I
>know that comment on the black community to me are those that
>are already deep in the black community... and they're usually
>saying the same things other black people are saying.

Well who are these white folks, do they have the power to ignitiate action and have they or are they just throwing out more opinions?
What do you consider 'deep in the black community'? Are you saying they were born and raised in Black communities, intermarried? and just how black is the community if there's a multiple number of whites within it? Would that be considered a mixed or multicultural community?

We could be talking about solutions for our communities...but instead we're discussing rather or not to include somebody else in a discussion we have yet to even parttake in...sad.

Answer back if you like, I'll read but this tail chancing needs to end.

Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
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Please submit your recipes to playerscookbook@yahoo.com or inbox and don't forget PHOTOS.

*********************************

  

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Cocobrotha2
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Wed May-11-05 11:12 PM

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77. "RE: then why not just take 'Black' out the equation?"
In response to Reply # 71


          


>
>And see this is what I'm tryna get at. If the loan officer
>tells me no and tells my white neighbor yes, I'll be ready to
>holla racism, HOWEVER if the same loan officer that told me no
>tells my black neighbor yes, I'll be more open to finding out
>why I didn't get the loan and asking my black neighbor how did
>they go about getting theirs.

You'd be wrong to hollar racism until you knew why your white counterpart got it and you didn't. I mean, you didn't say ya'll were identical except for race, so assuming race was what made the difference would've been jumping to conclusions.

Of course you can't make that conclusion if another black person gets it and you don't but what if he got some other form of preference?

Basically what I'm saying is that you don't know what limited you until you ask the same questions of both your neighbors. How you say you'd react is probably common but that doesn't mean it's the right or constructive way to react.

You're also missing out on access to possibly better services. The average black consumer pays higher interest rates than whites for many reasons, race being one of them. But it's not just bc the loan officer is cheating them, it's bc the avg black consumer is recommending his bad loan officer to other black consumers.

Daily, someone in the situation you described goes to their black neighbor for advice, unaware that the black neighbor is paying 1% more than the white neighbor. If he ever finds out what the white neighbor is paying, he'll again cry racism bc the white neighbor was obviously keeping a secret (instead of acknowledging he probably shoulda asked him how he got his loan and what rate he got in the first place).

It's possible the black neighbor has the best rate in town, but reality shows we're perenially underserved so it seems logical that our referrals are probably below par as well. Opening up discussion like this to whoever is down to talk would help bring more of these injustices to light and improve our lot.

>Granted that sounds bogus, but
>I'm able to rule out a lot of bs when discussing issue that
>may be race related...talking to a white person about how they
>got their loan will only help so much and if after applying
>the same effort I don't get positive results, I can validate
>my race cry, but why, just to prove the establishment is
>racist? I don't have time for that shit, so it would suit me
>best to push that aside and ask someone who perhaps got over
>that hurdle in advance so I can do the same.

I can see what you're saying but you seem to be assuming that race is such a big factor in every single interaction with whites that it automatically invalidates any insight a white person might have about difference in treatment. Race is usually the most blatant difference but I usually try to delve past the obvious before making a judgement call.

Why? Bc race-based decisions are often the most irrational so in my mind I have to disqualify plausible, rational explanations before I delve into the irrational. I know it's tempting and emotionally satisfying to think racism is what's holding you back, but there's often another explanation.

Also by going through the plausible explanations first, you're gathering evidence that will be helpful should racism turn out to be the issue.

>Therefore if my
>effort is shot I know its me and therefore will work on
>me...not trying to get some civilrights law suit going.

You wouldn't bring a civil rights suit if you were discriminated against?

I can understand your apprehension if you thought your case was weak (i.e. "that white guy got a loan but I didn't"), but if you've gathered substantial information that proves racism on a companies part, I'd think righteous indignation or just a feeling of duty for your community would impel you to go through with the suit.

But hey, do you.

>Funny thing is that back in the day, Blacks could only turn to
>blacks for constructive info and we owned more then than we do
>now. Why is that?

You've answered your own question. There was no other choice. There was a defacto solidarity. That doesn't mean that they were passing better information around. If they were, their businesses wouldn't have suffered when the repealing of the segregation laws opened up our businesses to competition from the mainstream.

>>I believe there's a standard formula for success here ..
>i.e.
>>the people that are successful here (financially, socially,
>>etc) tend to do the same things, even wen they come from
>>different cultures. Maybe there's a black spin on it, but I
>>have a feeling it'll mostly be the same as what everyone
>else
>>has done.
>>
>The Black Spin is what I'm aiming for, because I've already
>come to the realization that my skin color will be a factor at
>some point, why would I ignore it?

In my mind, the Black Spin is the trivial/easy part of the equation. The hard part is specifying what ideas work universally. After that, The Black Spin is just translating those ideas into a form palatable and relevant to the black community.

>
>>Now, much of our community would consider that "selling
>out".
>>But truth be told, the other groups that come here (and many
>>of us look to as examples for maintaining their heritage AND
>>succeeding) are the biggest "sellouts" in this nation. Think
>>about it...
>>
>>+They left their "hood" for our deluxe country on the
>>west-side (of the earth).
>>+Sure, they keep some of their old traditions but they
>>invariably change their bahavior to fit in better.
>>+They kick some money home but nothing really improves at
>home
>>(that's why they stay here).
>>+And though some people are proud of their accomplishments,
>>many are jealous that they're still stuck in the hood they
>>grew up in.
>>
>What exactly would we consider "selling out"?

Just pretend it's a black person doing everything I bulleted. Many other black people would consider that "sellout behaviour". I don't.

>>If the hood does improve, thouggh, it's invariably through
>the
>>hard work of those that were still at home uplifting
>>themselves. Eventually that starts to attract their
>countrymen
>>back (see Ethiopia, India, Korea) bc they now feel their
>>country is moving in the same direction they are.
>>
>>Examples are out there, yet we're supposed to sit with
>>blinders on and re-invent the wheel.
>>
>No bodies talking about re-inventing the wheel, but about
>seeing and understanding whats out there and NOT being afraid
>to discuss that info and most of all the info from your own
>community amongst those that make up your community. Theres no
>need to go searching for information outside your community
>when their are folks right next door setting positive
>examples. That's like driven to some white burbs for a pair of
>shoes when the Black owned store around the corner has the
>same shoe for a lessor price.

You keep going back to this "either/or" paradigm..... Either you're discussing these issues exclusively within your group OR you're discussing it explicitly OUTSIDE your group.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying we should remain open to insight from WHOMEVER is knowledgeable and useful. If your black neighbors have all the hookups and knows what the deal is, I have no problem with you sticking with them.

Unfortunately, you're probably in a rare group. The average person needs to remain receptive to whoever has the best information, and that can be anyone.


>>Despite the fact many people feel it is, this does not have
>to
>>be a zero sum game. I mean, there are some teams or
>companies
>>where it's everybody for themselves but that's not how the
>>whole or even most of the corporate world acts.
>>
>U can't be serious. There's not a company I know who's top
>execs are willing to give fair play to ground workers. A good
>example is the United Airlines issue. They'd rather pay pilots
>minimum wage w/ only dental benefits if they can continue
>living it up while supplying passengers with video game
>equipment on flights...hell them bastards aren't even willing
>to better the safety of planes for fear of cost and loosing
>their plush lifestyles. Ha, and you think the US could give
>more of a damn?

Pilots make 250k a year. You must mean the stewards and stewardesses.

If you think about what they do, they're basically waitresses. They make more in base salary but don't get tips. Ok, maybe a stewardess should be allowed to get tips but how much do you think their services are really worth? Do her daily actions ensure her and all her workmates get paid and get those dental benefits? Does she find financing to pay for the planes she's serving drinks and peanuts in?

And flying is statistically safer than crossing the street or driving in a car. Millions of people fly daily around the world. How many get injured or die in a year? Maybe, MAYBE a couple hundred worldwide. 0.0001%

Yo, that's just a horrible example.

>>To extend the analogy, everyone doesn't look at our
>upliftment
>>as their downfall. I will admit there are those that do but
>>they are slowly fading away.
>>
>It aint fading fast enough. Drugs are still a heavy issue in
>the Black community, not to mention other things. It continues
>to exist in our communities for the sole purpose of control
>and its just as vivid today as it was in the 80's. We've just
>learned to adapt.

Sole purpose is control? Cmon now, leave a little door open for personal responsibility. Did someone force you try your first drug or did you choose to?



>>
>>I can't account for your experiences. The only white people
>I
>>know that comment on the black community to me are those
>that
>>are already deep in the black community... and they're
>usually
>>saying the same things other black people are saying.
>
>Well who are these white folks, do they have the power to
>ignitiate action and have they or are they just throwing out
>more opinions?
>What do you consider 'deep in the black community'? Are you
>saying they were born and raised in Black communities,
>intermarried?


Ignitiate is a great word. I'm stealing it.

No, they don't have the power to ignitiate structural change, because they're mostly peers. Being white, though, they'll still have influence when they gain more power through the years.

And by deep in the community, I mean they participate in the community as much as the community is willing to accept them. I'm not talking some "I wanna be down" types. I'm talking about folks that understand that they may not be fully accepted but are

And the community they participate in is predominantly black, so I'd call it the black community.

and just how black is the community if there's a
>multiple number of whites within it? Would that be considered
>a mixed or multicultural community?

If the overwhelming majority is still black, it's a black community.

>We could be talking about solutions for our communities...but
>instead we're discussing rather or not to include somebody
>else in a discussion we have yet to even parttake in...sad.

I see it as part of the solution. I'm very interested in finances and technology and I try to share whatever information I can with other younger and less knowledgable black people ... but guess where I get some of that info I'm passing down?

People ask how I learn some of these things and I'm honest... by experience and by picking the brain of anyone that will give me the time of day. I fyou've got some info I want or need, I'm gonna ask. If you don't tell me, I'll find another source.

>Answer back if you like, I'll read but this tail chancing
>needs to end.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6561 posts
Tue May-10-05 01:00 PM

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32. "I think you are twisting the argument..."
In response to Reply # 26
Tue May-10-05 01:05 PM by brokenchains79

  

          

or atleast not dealing with it for which it actually exist.

In Black history you have white experts for each period, and when a Black historian disagrees with a white historian he is deviating from what real history is. Like John Henrik Clarke says, a major part of white supremacy was the colonization of information about the world.

This is not simply about normative behavior. It's about when one group from a position of power tells another group what there issue is and isn't. For example, the good liberal Kennedy administration told Blacks that Freedom rides is not the way to go, if you continue we will continue letting those southern rednecks kill and lynch you. However, the right to vote is more important, and we will support you on that(if I can have the black vote) but only the good negros.

The issue is politics, white people (take it as a generalization if you want to) are of the opinion this is their country and they are just sharing it with others people, so while they are sharing they have the right to say what is and what aint, What Black person is acceptable and what aint. This permeates from the top to the bottom so much they are not even conscious of what they are doing I.E. BarTek.

White people at this moment is debating what is the best education for Blacks, Blacks are telling whites how to be educated only for the purpose of getting them off our ass, we are not telling them fuck George Washington learn about John Brown.

This is as political as the Negro Question (White folks debating among themselves what to do with Blacks) thata been debated since the precursors of the civil war, to the present.

There is no Cracka Question. You have Blacks still trying to solve the Negro Question.


*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

  

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chillsm00th
Member since Mar 25th 2005
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Tue May-10-05 01:05 PM

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33. "thanks for summing that up."
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

cre8 hit the point as well.

<--All-American couple


"people on here just be like " go for it man! its sex! god forbid you turn down SEX! *dances around the baal statue*" -- Stephbit

  

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Cocobrotha2
Charter member
9246 posts
Tue May-10-05 01:28 PM

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36. "The original post would be better off supporting your post"
In response to Reply # 32


          

The original post made it clear that "by and large, White opinions of the Black condition hold no weight. We're actual members and participants in this community, and don't need outsiders to come in and attempt to delineate our problems for us."

I've heard similar views many times. It's simply to absolute to be true so I pounced :0)

I understand what you're talking about when it comes to self-proclaimed white experts on black people. I don't have a problem with an expert on a particular issue like racism, poverty, sexuality, etc applying his expertise to the black condition.

I do have a problem with anyone claiming to be an expert on "The Black Condition" , though, bc the subject is too large for anyone to be an expert.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

  

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Cre8
Charter member
17379 posts
Tue May-10-05 05:56 PM

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39. "*claps*"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

splendidly conveyed

Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
To help: L9 Health Clinic http://www.commongroundrelief.org/node/242
DEADLINE: November 22, 2006
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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Tue May-10-05 06:56 PM

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42. "RE: not so fast...."
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

peace.
~
he stood there,
eyes locked on her,
stare irreversible.
her hands over mouth,
she laughs. he smells
her soul,
tames his thoughts,
and hides the want.
- the perfect mistake

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Tue May-10-05 06:55 PM

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41. "RE: Hmmmmmm...."
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

>or atleast not dealing with it for which it actually exist.
>
>In Black history you have white experts for each period, and
>when a Black historian disagrees with a white historian he is
>deviating from what real history is. Like John Henrik Clarke
>says, a major part of white supremacy was the colonization of
>information about the world.

Okay, I learned something here.

>
>This is not simply about normative behavior. It's about when
>one group from a position of power tells another group what
>there issue is and isn't. For example, the good liberal
>Kennedy administration told Blacks that Freedom rides is not
>the way to go, if you continue we will continue letting those
>southern rednecks kill and lynch you. However, the right to
>vote is more important, and we will support you on that(if I
>can have the black vote) but only the good negros.

An American perspective/situation. This cannot apply to those outside of America.

>
>The issue is politics, white people (take it as a
>generalization if you want to) are of the opinion this is
>their country and they are just sharing it with others people,
>so while they are sharing they have the right to say what is
>and what aint, What Black person is acceptable and what aint.
>This permeates from the top to the bottom so much they are not
>even conscious of what they are doing I.E. BarTek.

I am the worst possible example of this. I'll explain why. I do not live in the United States. I was born in Poland, grew up in Africa, moved to Canada. I do not believe that Canada/America, or North America is mine to share with anyone. I have always believed, that it was being shared with me, considering that I wasn't even born in North America. I believe that Black Culture is being shared with me as well. What I am trying to do, is very different to what you are used to and can identify brokenchains. I am not the same type of white person you can identify in American society, simply because, I did not grow up in American society. Your definitions always fail to categorize me. It will be impossible for you to place an American definition on a foreigner, as that is a logical fallacy. Why don't you accept my word and use that to identify with me, because up to this point, it seems that you would rather define me in the american way, and disregard anything I say based on, "me not being conscious of what i am doing". You are judging me, and you are taking a point of authority to define me, and it is all incorrect. How ironic that we share the same frustration with eachother.

>
>
>This is as political as the Negro Question (White folks
>debating among themselves what to do with Blacks) thata been
>debated since the precursors of the civil war, to the
>present.

Speaking on behalf of myself. If you look around these boards, I am usually the only white person that is debating with a group of black folks. I don't see any white people besides me. I am not interested in debating with a group of white folks, because they can't teach me anything. You have all taught me everything I know, and everything I use to base my opinion and theories on. I am a product of the mentality you have taught me. That is the absolute truth. The reason why it seems that I deviate is, because I will not accept that I was born evil, and because, I will not accept your definition.

>
>There is no Cracka Question. You have Blacks still trying to
>solve the Negro Question.
>

Word, and you have folks trying to solve the Human question too.

Peace.


~
he stood there,
eyes locked on her,
stare irreversible.
her hands over mouth,
she laughs. he smells
her soul,
tames his thoughts,
and hides the want.
- the perfect mistake

  

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mad666
Member since May 06th 2005
114 posts
Tue May-10-05 07:20 PM

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44. "This is why this post was made"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          


>Speaking on behalf of myself. If you look around these boards,
>I am usually the only white person that is debating with a
>group of black folks. I don't see any white people besides me.
>I am not interested in debating with a group of white folks,
>because they can't teach me anything. You have all taught me
>everything I know, and everything I use to base my opinion and
>theories on. I am a product of the mentality you have taught
>me. That is the absolute truth. The reason why it seems that I
>deviate is, because I will not accept that I was born evil,
>and because, I will not accept your definition.
You are white yet are overly concernede with black people as if we are children.

GAY MEN HAVE NO SOULS.

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Tue May-10-05 07:43 PM

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46. "RE: wrong again!"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

I am white and I am concerned with both white and black people. with white, in the sense that white people are not evil, and can contribute great things. with black, as in, i want to fight against white supremacy, and find equality.

i also stated that black folks have taught me a great deal, and i had to place myself in a child's role many times in order to grasp something that i could not wrap my head around as a grown adult. many times, i have purged all my beliefs about revolution in order to find a new path. i do not treat anyone like children.

you need to stop trying to define me sucka, you will never get it.

peace

~
he stood there,
eyes locked on her,
stare irreversible.
her hands over mouth,
she laughs. he smells
her soul,
tames his thoughts,
and hides the want.
- the perfect mistake

  

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mad666
Member since May 06th 2005
114 posts
Tue May-10-05 09:04 PM

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47. "RE: wrong again!"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

you have a sick fetish with black people. You need help.

GAY MEN HAVE NO SOULS.

  

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Amigo
Member since May 10th 2005
156 posts
Tue May-10-05 10:53 PM

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51. "Oh c'mon now-be nice."
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

Can't we all just get along?

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Tue May-10-05 11:36 PM

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52. "RE: wrong again!"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

You need help!

is why im here son.

peace
~
he stood there,
eyes locked on her,
stare irreversible.
her hands over mouth,
she laughs. he smells
her soul,
tames his thoughts,
and hides the want.
- the perfect mistake

  

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mad666
Member since May 06th 2005
114 posts
Wed May-11-05 07:04 AM

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55. "Seek counseling"
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

You need help. Yor sick fetish with black issues is disturbing. The fact that you think that your white input is needed and wanted on black issues is inherently racist.

GAY MEN HAVE NO SOULS.

  

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FireBrand
Charter member
145739 posts
Wed May-11-05 07:09 AM

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57. "This is so true:"
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

> The fact that you think that your white input is
>needed and wanted on black issues is inherently racist.


Rules to post by (Break them, get deleted): http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

www.northernarc.net
www.myspace.com/egyptianknight

<<<<----Sam Sharpe. 3rd World people, remember where ya coming from!

  

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moot_point
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
3809 posts
Wed May-11-05 07:30 AM

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59. "So on this reasoning if I give an educated opinion on"
In response to Reply # 55


          

women; I am inherently sexist

The old; inherently ageist

The disabled; discriminatory

Foreigners; xenophobic...



  

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Cre8
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17379 posts
Wed May-11-05 10:40 AM

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63. "If its your opinion...probably so"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

its much better to work at solutions i.e. starting an organization for women seeking divorce & shelter from abusive husbands/partners, programs to assist seniors & disabled on fixed incomes, free jobplacement and career starter help for the disabled and cultural transitioning schools for foreigners.
And unlike govt. programs they shouldn't be forced or become a cripple the people they claim to help...but throwing out your opinion just makes you appear opinionated.

Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
To help: L9 Health Clinic http://www.commongroundrelief.org/node/242
DEADLINE: November 22, 2006
Please submit your recipes to playerscookbook@yahoo.com or inbox and don't forget PHOTOS.

*********************************

  

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moot_point
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
3809 posts
Wed May-11-05 10:49 AM

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65. "You're restricting the meaning of 'opinion' to 'two cents worth'"
In response to Reply # 63
Wed May-11-05 10:50 AM by moot_point

          

>its much better to work at solutions i.e. starting an
>organization for women seeking divorce & shelter from abusive
>husbands/partners, programs to assist seniors & disabled on
>fixed incomes, free jobplacement and career starter help for
>the disabled and cultural transitioning schools for
>foreigners.
>And unlike govt. programs they shouldn't be forced or become a
>cripple the people they claim to help...but throwing out your
>opinion just makes you appear opinionated.

There is no question that the progammes/activities you mention are meritorious. However, can we completely dismiss academic theory as 'opinionated'?

  

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Cre8
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Wed May-11-05 06:16 PM

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69. "your academic theory is based on what?"
In response to Reply # 65
Wed May-11-05 06:17 PM by Cre8

  

          

history? and if so, could it be that that same history shows EXACTLY what the main poster is posting about?

If you had an idea that was sure to make you a billionaire or richer...would you run it across Bill Gates? If not, what makes you think Blacks discussing and finding solutions to Black issues should welcome you into their forums?
It's like there's an understanding of secrecy or keeping things to oneself whenever the issue of race is not involved, but God forbid Black folks congregate w/ fellow Blacks to discuss Black life without some 'other' being present and "sharing" their opinion.
The only thing your presence and opinions represent is the need for whites to be incorporated into any and every black activity, a need and silent law set forth by the Nat Turner slayings. Whats so sad is that yall keep trying to convince us that we need to have you presence, opinions, academic theories in order for us to achieve...would seem like if I had good info to help somebody and they said they didn't want it I'd say 'cool, do you' but not yall, oh no, its a MUST that we listen to you o great white one.

Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
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DEADLINE: November 22, 2006
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moot_point
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
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Wed May-11-05 06:46 PM

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70. "This is a weak analogy..."
In response to Reply # 69


          

>If you had an idea that was sure to make you a billionaire or
>richer...would you run it across Bill Gates? If not, what
>makes you think Blacks discussing and finding solutions to
>Black issues should welcome you into their forums?

Is the black solution a secret, which should be kept from white thinkers in case they try to steal it?


>It's like there's an understanding of secrecy or keeping
>things to oneself whenever the issue of race is not involved,
>but God forbid Black folks congregate w/ fellow Blacks to
>discuss Black life without some 'other' being present and
>"sharing" their opinion.


What on earth are you talking about? This makes no sense. Name an issue that is secret or kept to oneself? (Perhaps you can't answer this because folks keep it a secret from you!!!)

>The only thing your presence and opinions represent is the
>need for whites to be incorporated into any and every black
>activity, a need and silent law set forth by the Nat Turner
>slayings. Whats so sad is that yall keep trying to convince us
>that we need to have you presence, opinions, academic theories
>in order for us to achieve...would seem like if I had good
>info to help somebody and they said they didn't want it I'd
>say 'cool, do you' but not yall, oh no, its a MUST that we
>listen to you o great white one.

Look, I'm not personally trying to burden you with any opinion but I put this to you: If there was a forum on this site including the views of 15 anonymous posters - some of whom black and some of whom white liberals - I am confident that onlookers (even the PHD students amongst you) would not be able to differentiate.

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
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Wed May-11-05 07:04 PM

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72. "I think i'd be able to differentiate to some extent"
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

>Look, I'm not personally trying to burden you with any opinion but
> I put this to you: If there was a forum on this site including the
> views of 15 anonymous posters - some of whom black and some of
> whom white liberals - I am confident that onlookers (even the PHD
>students amongst you) would not be able to differentiate.

But the problem with being able to differentiate has been a problem that has been addressed in many text of Black writers, the need for a Black Social Theory or Intellecutal independence from the establishment. The problem is that we have gobbled up ideologies that are of not of our making that are supposed to be universal and are not suitable to our specific circumstances. The Black social theory/philosophy that has been posed by many Black thinkers will have to be reflective of African historical cultural reality. I think more and more Black thinkers have moved in this direction since the emergence of Black Studies, but I don't think people could differentiate someone just doing a typical marxist analysis.


*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

  

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moot_point
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
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Wed May-11-05 07:43 PM

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74. "Point noted"
In response to Reply # 72


          


>But the problem with being able to differentiate has been a
>problem that has been addressed in many text of Black writers,
>the need for a Black Social Theory or Intellecutal
>independence from the establishment. The problem is that we
>have gobbled up ideologies that are of not of our making that
>are supposed to be universal and are not suitable to our
>specific circumstances. The Black social theory/philosophy
>that has been posed by many Black thinkers will have to be
>reflective of African historical cultural reality. I think
>more and more Black thinkers have moved in this direction
>since the emergence of Black Studies, but I don't think people
>could differentiate someone just doing a typical marxist
>analysis.

I once read an essay bell hooks called Postmodern Blackness, which said the same thing.

As I wrote earlier, I think a peculiarity of the university system is that there is a certain 'university fellow', whose writings may be somewhat restricted by his background - white, male (but much less so now), middle-class, etc. Does it mean we should dismiss academic work, for example, on sex, class and gender from these people because many they are not of the same sex, class and gender? If not, then what makes discourse on race any different?

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
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Wed May-11-05 10:10 PM

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76. "RE: Point noted"
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

I'll read anyone's book or opinion for as long as i can tolerate it. I think it's important to know what different people are thinking about different things. But when it comes to political action and discussing issues that are personal, certain participation is not wanted.

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

  

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moot_point
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
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Thu May-12-05 05:09 AM

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79. "Then last question..."
In response to Reply # 76
Thu May-12-05 05:29 AM by moot_point

          

In the 'Do you guys hate the white man?' forum you propose that we should not ask the black man this but rather we should ask if the white man if he hates the black man. You justify this on the grounds that you would never ask the victimiser if he hated the victim. In this sense you suggest that the way to address black issues is in part via a white account and subsequent understanding of white supremacy.

Notwithstanding the diametric crudeness of this idea, at what point do you seek to silence the individual you choose to quiz in the first place?

  

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moot_point
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
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Fri May-13-05 07:29 PM

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89. "Hey man!!"
In response to Reply # 79


          

Why not extend the same respect that I extended to you by answering the question. I know you've seen it because you have made subsequent posts on this thread...

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
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Fri May-13-05 08:13 PM

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91. "Lol..."
In response to Reply # 89


  

          

I didn't realize I had a conversation going on, thought the exchange was over. When i replied to tarnished spoon I only popped in because I saw this post was near the top, I scrolled and saw the last post answered and that was it.

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
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Fri May-13-05 08:10 PM

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90. "RE: Then last question..."
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

>In the 'Do you guys hate the white man?' forum you propose that we
>should not ask the black man this but rather we should ask if the
> white man if he hates the black man.

You justify this on the
>grounds that you would never ask the victimiser if he hated the
>victim.

I'm not saying this. Maybe you just typed it wrong. I'm saying if you are a victim you are going to feel a certain way about the person who victimized you, you can call it hate or whatever. But if you like detective shows, you look at the person who commits the crime, figure out that person's motive. Like if you start a fire, you have to expect smoke, why was the fire set is the more important question.

> In this sense you suggest that the way to address black
>issues is in part via a white account and subsequent understanding
> of white supremacy.

I believe if you don't understand white supremacy then any understanding of its effects will be specious.

>Notwithstanding the diametric crudeness of this idea, at what point
> do you seek to silence the individual you choose to quiz in the
> first place?

Not sure I understand the question. How about this, if the question, do Blacks hate whites can be answered with the assumption because of racism then we should naturally understand why whites are racist. I think to look at it any other way is racist, because it protects the criminal institution of white supremacy.

How about this. During slavery, the slaves that ran away was diagnosed as being mentally deranged for leaving the plantation. All the attention was placed on the slave, and if he ran away it should be obvious because he/she wanted freedom. The real question is, why are you enslaving someone, and how do you become so racist to think something is wrong with someone because they want freedom.

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
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Fri May-13-05 08:26 PM

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93. "Another example in post 92"
In response to Reply # 90


  

          


*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

  

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moot_point
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
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Fri May-13-05 08:30 PM

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94. "Whoops!"
In response to Reply # 90


          

>I'm not saying this. Maybe you just typed it wrong. I'm saying
>if you are a victim you are going to feel a certain way about
>the person who victimized you, you can call it hate or
>whatever. But if you like detective shows, you look at the
>person who commits the crime, figure out that person's motive.
>Like if you start a fire, you have to expect smoke, why was
>the fire set is the more important question.

Yes I did type it the wrong way round!!! But your analogy plugs into my very belief that you can't address 'black' issues without looking at 'white' motivation. This is crude because it presupposes that all blacks are subservients and 'whites' masters; which I'm sure you will agree is untrue. However, how can you hope to solve 'black' issues without making evaluations of his 'white' nemesis? And if you choose to do this you surely take a liberty as a black thinker, the very liberty you seek to ban the white thinker from taking.

  

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The Lemon Kid
Member since May 02nd 2005
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Fri May-13-05 09:02 PM

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95. "RE: Whoops!"
In response to Reply # 94


          

..actually. as the democratic representitive of white supremacists in waiting, i would say that Black people (i.e. Africans) have been far more receptive to what I have to say and far more supportive of my own "work" that the white establishment. Don't you know Louis Farrakhan signed a deal with the Klu Klux Klan?

...In the Land of The Strange Confusion Is King.

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
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Fri May-13-05 09:02 PM

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96. "RE: Whoops!"
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

>Yes I did type it the wrong way round!!! But your analogy plugs
> into my very belief that you can't address 'black' issues without
> looking at 'white' motivation.

Depends on what the issue is, but it is almost impossible to maneuver in a veiled fascist country without addressing how "the white man" will attempt to oppose.
But as frederick douglass stated, if the white man continues to enslave black people then he is also enslaving himself. So yeah, in just about everything the white man does he has to figure out how he will address the "Negro Question"


>This is crude because it presupposes that all blacks are
> subservients and 'whites' masters; which I'm sure you will agree
> is untrue.

If we get specific instead of lazily saying the "white man", if we talk about the institutions and families that run this world and this country, then I agree that Blacks and Whites are exploited and colonized by criminals, that are white.

>However, how can you hope to solve 'black' issues without making
> evaluations of his 'white' nemesis?

You don't, know your enemy. But it's certain things Blacks can and have to do that whites will have no control of, no matter the tactics.

>And if you choose to do this you surely take a liberty as a black
> thinker, the very liberty you seek to ban the white thinker from
>taking.

Not sure what that means. I don't claim to be a leader or intellectual, thinker, etc, no more than I am a student. When so many of us see themselves as teachers and students then we push our cause tremendously. Whites taking interest in us are usually trying to be experts, controllers, and oppressors

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

  

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moot_point
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
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Sat May-14-05 05:41 AM

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97. "Then I'll address it..."
In response to Reply # 96
Sat May-14-05 05:41 AM by moot_point

          

>Not sure what that means. I don't claim to be a leader or
>intellectual, thinker, etc, no more than I am a student. When
>so many of us see themselves as teachers and students then we
>push our cause tremendously. Whites taking interest in us are
>usually trying to be experts, controllers, and oppressors


You accept that a discussion of black issues is not mutually exclusive. You stress the importance considering the context of and attempting to understanding the white supremacy within which black issues sit.

Therefore, you must make presuppositions about 'the white' system (either through your own observations or existing literature), but do so having never worn the shoes of a white man.

However, you then assert that a white man should not comment on black issues because he has never worn the shoes of a black man...

I don't really see a difference, and tend to think that a dialogue between the two (white and black thinkers) is a far more conducive relationship for beginning to understand race dynamics.

  

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The Lemon Kid
Member since May 02nd 2005
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Sat May-14-05 05:44 AM

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98. "RE: Then I'll address it..."
In response to Reply # 97


          

..wrong on one count. This is white man's country. Therefore before you even begin a discussion, white people have had a negative effect on black lives, and probably provoked the discussion in the first place. How would you like it if you had Africans walking around Toxteth or Brixton telling you what to do with yourselfs ya junkie bastards?

...In the Land of The Strange Confusion Is King.

  

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moot_point
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
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Sat May-14-05 05:52 AM

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100. "Wrong IF"
In response to Reply # 98


          

>This is white man's country.

you uncritically subsribe to this generalisation.

  

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The Lemon Kid
Member since May 02nd 2005
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Sat May-14-05 05:55 AM

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101. "RE: Wrong IF"
In response to Reply # 100


          

..what generalisation is that? That The U.K. and the U.S. are run by White People, For White People. Rich White People. Y'know if I was doing my bit for international relations, I'd be warning people about you...

...In the Land of The Strange Confusion Is King.

  

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The Lemon Kid
Member since May 02nd 2005
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Sat May-14-05 05:59 AM

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102. "RE: Wrong IF"
In response to Reply # 100


          

..anyway. I owe you an apology. Interupting your debate is technically against the rules. I'll leave you alone to get on with your buisness.

...In the Land of The Strange Confusion Is King.

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
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Sat May-14-05 03:21 PM

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104. "Huh?!?"
In response to Reply # 97


  

          

No one is trying to stand in a white man's shoes, we must show the ability to analyze white supremacy, which can be done by anyone because it is a world wide system. The whites that are interested in us should be more so interested in dismantling white supremacy themselves if they want to do anything. Our issues in the Black community has to be resolved by us, and that does not need discourse with whites.

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
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Sun May-15-05 12:50 AM

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107. "RE: Huh?!?"
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

>No one is trying to stand in a white man's shoes, we must
>show the ability to analyze white supremacy, which can be done
>by anyone because it is a world wide system.

I don't think the world wide system has exposed the innerworkings of white supermacy. do you think there is enough avaiable research material to understand it at it's core, even though you are black?

The whites that
>are interested in us should be more so interested in
>dismantling white supremacy themselves if they want to do
>anything. Our issues in the Black community has to be resolved
>by us, and that does not need discourse with whites.
>

That's a great idea. And there is good progress in dismantling it. But, how do we use that knowledge? Peace.

>*****
>Gina is out of control
>I'm out of control
>the whole--damn--party
>--is--out--of control!
>(c) White Bob
>*****


~
he stood there,
eyes locked on her,
stare irreversible.
her hands over mouth,
she laughs. he smells
her soul,
tames his thoughts,
and hides the want.
- the perfect mistake

  

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The Lemon Kid
Member since May 02nd 2005
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Sun May-15-05 05:33 PM

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109. "RE: Huh?!?"
In response to Reply # 107


          

..what planet are you living on?

...In the Land of The Strange Confusion Is King.

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
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Tue May-17-05 02:32 AM

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114. "RE: Huh?!?"
In response to Reply # 109


  

          

the one you're obviously not on. so i should be asking you that question.

peace
~
he stood there,
eyes locked on her,
stare irreversible.
her hands over mouth,
she laughs. he smells
her soul,
tames his thoughts,
and hides the want.
- the perfect mistake

  

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moot_point
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
3809 posts
Tue May-17-05 11:05 AM

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115. "This response if very disappointing"
In response to Reply # 104
Tue May-17-05 11:24 AM by moot_point

          

>No one is trying to stand in a white man's shoes, we must
>show the ability to analyze white supremacy, which can be done
>by anyone because it is a world wide system. The whites that
>are interested in us should be more so interested in
>dismantling white supremacy themselves if they want to do
>anything. Our issues in the Black community has to be resolved
>by us, and that does not need discourse with whites.
>

I'm sure you fully understand the turn of phrase in the context I used it, because I have explained it twice coherently and you expalin the context above.

Why don't you see the inherent contradiction in what you write?

A black man can understand the 'white' component of the dynamic (because it is a world wide system?!) but a white man cannot understand the 'black' component of the dynamic.

It simply makes no sense.

  

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Nettrice
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Tue May-17-05 11:42 AM

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116. "Jumping in..."
In response to Reply # 115


  

          

>A black man can understand the 'white' component of the
>dynamic (because it is a world wide system?!) but a white man
>cannot understand the 'black' component of the dynamic.
>
>It simply makes no sense.

I think the real issue for some white folks is how to come away from the system in order to see their privileged place in it, as well as how it is for others (ex. Black people). This is harder than you might think. For lack of a better example, I just watched an episode of Good Times and Michael was considering moving out, with a white girl (both college students). His mother, a single Black mother in the projects, was quite upset and not just because the girl was white. The girl's WASP (white Anglo-Saxon Protestant-like) parents came over and immediately tried to act Black with exaggerated gestures and speaking slang incorrectly to show they were "down", much to the dismay of the Black people in the room. The disconnect came with the assumption that being in the projects or among Black people required acting "Black" while the Black people were expecting them to be themselves (WASP parents).

The reason Black people can understand the "white component" is because they have been trained up in it since entering the world as children, the same as white folks. Usually, Black issues are not a part of this early and ongoing training/experience. It is left out or marginalized, stereotyped even more so than the WASP experience. So how else can white folks know about Black issues? There is more of a benefit to behaving like one who is white and, therefore, more privileged. Thus, for many Black folks, theirs is a very symbiotic existence. Black folks learn how to "switch" while white folks are able to be themselves and not have to adjust in the same way. Many white folks are unable to see a difference or divest from their "class-and-whiteness" privilege.

"The understanding of one's historical and privileged position requires a great deal of political clarity. However, political clarity can never be achieved if one accomodates to a position of ambiguity that usually suppresses one's ideological contradictions."

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6561 posts
Tue May-17-05 12:16 PM

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118. "Thank You"
In response to Reply # 116


  

          


*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

  

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Cre8
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Wed May-11-05 07:13 PM

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73. "RE: This is a weak analogy..."
In response to Reply # 70
Wed May-11-05 07:20 PM by Cre8

  

          

"Is the black solution a secret, which should be kept from white thinkers in case they try to steal it?"

LOL, but seriously, YES!

Oh, and most folks keep family matters secret or to those in the immediate family. Also businesses usually do the same.

and for that last comment, LOL, you've been narrowing this down to a on-line chat board while I've been looking at it from a wider perspective (i.e.) community meetings, church gatherings, political social events (noDem/Repubo)...ha, no wonder we're bumping heads.

Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
To help: L9 Health Clinic http://www.commongroundrelief.org/node/242
DEADLINE: November 22, 2006
Please submit your recipes to playerscookbook@yahoo.com or inbox and don't forget PHOTOS.

*********************************

  

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moot_point
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
3809 posts
Wed May-11-05 08:17 PM

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75. "You either like the to and fro'"
In response to Reply # 73


          

(hence the retrospective edit) or you don't (hence 'wasting time')..

Which is it?!


>LOL, but seriously, YES!
>
>Oh, and most folks keep family matters secret or to those in
>the immediate family. Also businesses usually do the same.

I'm sorry but this is another weak analogy. Who would post their immediate family matters up here? It's a public site! This is not the issue at all; unless you claim that you are part of the black 'extended' family.


>and for that last comment, LOL, you've been narrowing this
>down to a on-line chat board while I've been looking at it
>from a wider perspective (i.e.) community meetings, church
>gatherings, political social events (noDem/Repubo)...ha, no
>wonder we're bumping heads.


I was looking at it from Barthes' pov in 'Death of the Author'; but I can see that my experiment wouldn't work in the salient situations you describe.

Here's an idea. Shall we just agree to disagree and leave it at that?

Peace!

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Wed May-11-05 10:40 AM

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64. "RE: You're not worth my time,"
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

I am going to ignore you from now on.
Peace
~
he stood there,
eyes locked on her,
stare irreversible.
her hands over mouth,
she laughs. he smells
her soul,
tames his thoughts,
and hides the want.
- the perfect mistake

  

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FireBrand
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145739 posts
Wed May-11-05 07:11 AM

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58. "?"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          


Rules to post by (Break them, get deleted): http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

www.northernarc.net
www.myspace.com/egyptianknight

<<<<----Sam Sharpe. 3rd World people, remember where ya coming from!

  

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Cre8
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Wed May-11-05 10:20 AM

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62. "Thats nice and all"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

but your one white non-american person, but realize you're concerning yourself with a people who are considered the lowest of low in THIS nation, to which you are considered the cream of the crop. Regardless of your personal views, world exprience and other wonderful traits, you are still white as the driven snow and if Blacks are speaking of issues concerning Blacks (not just social problems) then it seems a bit oddball for you to feel that we should be so accepting to your point of views.
You wouldn't take road travel directions in China from a person giving second hand info thats never visited, so why should we?

Also what drives you to speak on Black issues? and why should I or anyblackbody else uphold it?

Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
To help: L9 Health Clinic http://www.commongroundrelief.org/node/242
DEADLINE: November 22, 2006
Please submit your recipes to playerscookbook@yahoo.com or inbox and don't forget PHOTOS.

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Wed May-11-05 10:55 AM

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66. "RE: Thats nice and all"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

then it seems a
>bit oddball for you to feel that we should be so accepting to
>your point of views.

You do not have to accept anything. Also, as I mentioned, Black Revolution is not my only point of interest. I am interested in many movements, including women's suffrage, first nation's people's, etc. This is only an aspect of me you see here, considering this is the hot topic on these boards. When I first joined this board, I began reading and learning, then, exploring.

>You wouldn't take road travel directions in China from a
>person giving second hand info thats never visited, so why
>should we?

Any information I provide is mere insight based on revolutions that came before. Also, any information I provide is from an outsider's perspective. If you set your pride aside and read it, you may find useful information. Nothing you have to accept, but something that may aid.

>
>Also what drives you to speak on Black issues? and why should
>I or anyblackbody else uphold it?

I explained this in my exchange with brokenchains, just scroll up.

Peace

~
he stood there,
eyes locked on her,
stare irreversible.
her hands over mouth,
she laughs. he smells
her soul,
tames his thoughts,
and hides the want.
- the perfect mistake

  

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Cre8
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Wed May-11-05 02:50 PM

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67. "thats a lot of scrolling"
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

whats wrong with posting a post #?

I think we should just agree to disagree, cause frankly and ironically, you have no idea of where I'm coming from and considering your own pride u never will...and that my friend is one of many problems with white input/opinions on BLACK issues.

Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
To help: L9 Health Clinic http://www.commongroundrelief.org/node/242
DEADLINE: November 22, 2006
Please submit your recipes to playerscookbook@yahoo.com or inbox and don't forget PHOTOS.

*********************************

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Thu May-12-05 12:07 AM

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78. "RE: what i think of that conversation..."
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

its worth reading it. shrug.

peace.
~
he stood there,
eyes locked on her,
stare irreversible.
her hands over mouth,
she laughs. he smells
her soul,
tames his thoughts,
and hides the want.
- the perfect mistake

  

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Aeon
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43644 posts
Wed May-11-05 07:31 AM

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60. "."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

_

shakin your block with a 6 million dollar bop

_

www.davidevanmcdowell.com

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Thu May-12-05 12:15 PM

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83. "RE: Archive!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Peace.

  

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TarnishedSpoon
Member since Aug 20th 2003
366 posts
Fri May-13-05 02:45 PM

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84. "RE: Racist discourse and paternalism."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

So does that mean that Daniel Patrick Moynihan was wrong, or that he should have even released his report, just because he was white?

S.ean | Waiting For Something Witty To Pop In Here

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6561 posts
Fri May-13-05 02:48 PM

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85. "He was as racist as they come."
In response to Reply # 84


  

          


*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

  

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TarnishedSpoon
Member since Aug 20th 2003
366 posts
Fri May-13-05 02:54 PM

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86. "RE: He was as racist as they come."
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

>
>*****
>Gina is out of control
>I'm out of control
>the whole--damn--party
>--is--out--of control!
>(c) White Bob
>*****


But does that make his report and the findings of it wrong?

S.ean | Waiting For Something Witty To Pop In Here

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6561 posts
Fri May-13-05 05:13 PM

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88. "Yes"
In response to Reply # 86


  

          


*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

  

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TarnishedSpoon
Member since Aug 20th 2003
366 posts
Mon May-16-05 01:10 PM

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111. "RE: Yes"
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

So I take it you can't prove it wrong, you just get all defensive and shit?

S.ean | Waiting For Something Witty To Pop In Here

  

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TarnishedSpoon
Member since Aug 20th 2003
366 posts
Fri May-13-05 02:55 PM

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87. "RE: He was as racist as they come."
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

>
>*****
>Gina is out of control
>I'm out of control
>the whole--damn--party
>--is--out--of control!
>(c) White Bob
>*****

Oh, and I would invite you to prove that.

S.ean | Waiting For Something Witty To Pop In Here

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6561 posts
Fri May-13-05 08:25 PM

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92. "Racism is easy to prove"
In response to Reply # 87


  

          

Moynihan report piggy backed off of the Kerner report. LBJ wanted to know why these niggers are burning down these cities. Kerner tells him, because of WHITE RACISM Mr. President. In fact the racism is so bad the country is heading into two different societies. "Oh no, can't have that"

So here comes Moynihan, if the problem is white racism then we have to look at the Black Family(1st act of racism orientation to the problem). How does that address white racism? In fact the Black family was the strongest institution in the Black community. It was attacked (second act of racism). He imposed Eurocentric values of family on the Black family that was not eurocentric. The third act of racism was the labeling and the policies that came after, i.e. the black matriarch, i.e headstart, although we made it so effective whites started saying we should do that for our kids, but the only reason it was implemented was because of the assumption we are
inferior.

This isn't saying anything really...the schools and institutions are inherently racist. If I am wrong you can start with the Great Western Books. The pillars of academia is as racist as it was in the 18th century.

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
56595 posts
Sat May-14-05 07:59 PM

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106. "well stated..."
In response to Reply # 92


  

          

also the backlash is just as misled, the dogmatic multiculturalism is largely white academic circles is just a new set of bullshit to subscribe to. i understand positions have been marginalized but that does not make them bulletproof but of course preaching it the way makes these people sleep a bit easier.

<<< OKP fighting

  

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TarnishedSpoon
Member since Aug 20th 2003
366 posts
Mon May-16-05 01:12 PM

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112. "RE: Racism is easy to prove"
In response to Reply # 92


  

          

>Moynihan report piggy backed off of the Kerner report. LBJ
>wanted to know why these niggers are burning down these
>cities. Kerner tells him, because of WHITE RACISM Mr.
>President. In fact the racism is so bad the country is heading
>into two different societies. "Oh no, can't have that"
>
>So here comes Moynihan, if the problem is white racism then we
>have to look at the Black Family(1st act of racism orientation
>to the problem). How does that address white racism? In fact
>the Black family was the strongest institution in the Black
>community. It was attacked (second act of racism). He imposed
>Eurocentric values of family on the Black family that was not
>eurocentric. The third act of racism was the labeling and the
>policies that came after, i.e. the black matriarch, i.e
>headstart, although we made it so effective whites started
>saying we should do that for our kids, but the only reason it
>was implemented was because of the assumption we are
>inferior.
>
>This isn't saying anything really...the schools and
>institutions are inherently racist. If I am wrong you can
>start with the Great Western Books. The pillars of academia is
>as racist as it was in the 18th century.

Oh thats it! He's racist because he said that the failure of black families was because of a lack of fathers! He said that something was wrong with black culture so obviously he's racist!

So, since you seem to think that there are things wrong with 'white' culture, or 'european' culture, are you racist?


S.ean | Waiting For Something Witty To Pop In Here

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6561 posts
Mon May-16-05 01:42 PM

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113. "It's clear you dont know what racism is"
In response to Reply # 112


  

          


*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
56595 posts
Sat May-14-05 07:44 PM

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105. "That is presumptious..."
In response to Reply # 0
Sat May-14-05 07:52 PM by ConcreteCharlie

  

          

I am not saying it is not true in many if not most cases but I know a lot of white people commenting on racial issues or men commenting on gender issues who take a sort of backseat and only offer observations or very mild opinions. I am very much that way with reproductive rights and also to a large extent with matters of race even though I have read extensively on the subject and hold a degree in black studies. I nevertheless recognize that I am removed in the most fundamental sense and, as a holder of many very marginal positions, do not consider my positions the authoritatively normative ones nor to carry more (if anything they carry less) weight than anyone else's apart from those both extraneous to the culture and entirely uneducated perhaps. Also, as a Jew, I dont see black people keep their noses anywhere near out of the way of issues of anti-semitism or deferring in any way to those who are "part of the culture." Nor should they if they have opinions. The desire to study and express oneself on a subject does not inherently mean that they are interested in aligning against the group at hand. Angela Davis, James Baldwin and many other black scholars who are among my personal favorite authors involve themselves with latin, gay, asian, semitic and other peoples' histories and struggles. If you are truly concerned with social JUSTICE rather than further a particular group or agenda, I feel like one has to be concerned with identity and the interstices thereof. To limit discussions to only those "directly involved" is not to further them, but limit them, in my view.

<<< OKP fighting

  

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Nettrice
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Tue May-17-05 11:45 AM

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117. "From #116"
In response to Reply # 105


  

          

I think it applies here, as well:

I just watched an episode of Good Times and Michael was considering moving out, with a white girl (both college students). His mother, a single Black mother in the projects, was quite upset and not just because the girl was white. The girl's WASP (white Anglo-Saxon Protestant-like) parents came over and immediately tried to act Black with exaggerated gestures and speaking slang incorrectly to show they were "down", much to the dismay of the Black people in the room. The disconnect came with the assumption that being in the projects or among Black people required acting "Black" while the Black people were expecting them to be themselves (WASP parents)...and deal with the issue of their young daughter shacking up with a guy.

The reason Black people can understand the "white component" is because they have been trained up in it since entering the world as children, the same as white folks. Usually, Black issues are not a part of this early and ongoing training/experience. It is left out or marginalized, stereotyped even more so than the WASP experience. So how else can white folks know about Black issues? There is more of a benefit to behaving like one who is white and, therefore, more privileged. Thus, for many Black folks, theirs is a very symbiotic existence. Black folks learn how to "switch" while white folks are able to be themselves and not have to adjust in the same way. Many white folks are unable to see a difference or divest from their "class-and-whiteness" privilege.

"The understanding of one's historical and privileged position requires a great deal of political clarity. However, political clarity can never be achieved if one accomodates to a position of ambiguity that usually suppresses one's ideological contradictions."

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
4624 posts
Tue Jun-07-05 06:43 PM

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119. "let's hear more from the prophet on this, tell me oh ye of wisdom..."
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Jun-07-05 06:47 PM by Otto

  

          

"Being white, they feel as though their opinions should be the starting point for any conversation about any topic."

Is this a caricature and a generalization, or is it grounded in cold, incontrovertible fact?

I find it telling that you don't hold yourself to the same standard as you hold us white folks to. If we have no right as whites to give "color" commentary on your race, what gives you the right to post this piece, assessing our motives and our ethos--you presumably being black? Do you see the disparity?

-Otto

  

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Nettrice
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Tue Jun-07-05 07:20 PM

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120. "Question"
In response to Reply # 119


  

          

>I find it telling that you don't hold yourself to the same
>standard as you hold us white folks to. If we have no right as
>whites to give "color" commentary on your race, what gives you
>the right to post this piece, assessing our motives and our
>ethos--you presumably being black? Do you see the disparity?

Do you deny white privilege?

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
4624 posts
Tue Jun-07-05 07:50 PM

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121. "RE: Question"
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

No, seeing that whites are the majority in America, and the majority rules a democracy...that means the majority makes the rules. Does that mean all white people are privileged? No. It means the ones in the position of power are privileged. Now what percentage of whites are in political power? Not a very large percent. Though whites make up the majority of those in political and economic power, the majoity of whites are found in the woking class. And we are subject to the same BS as everyone else. In the Army especially, black commanders are just as vituperative to there subordinates as white commanders. I know from first hand experience. But whites don't walk around with some austere club membership. To believe that is highly erroneous, with sincere and due respect to you.



white privilege, a social relation
1. a. A right, advantage, or immunity granted to or enjoyed by white persons beyond the common advantage of all others; an exemption in many particular cases from certain burdens or liabilities.
b. A special advantage or benefit of white persons; with reference to divine dispensations, natural advantages, gifts of fortune, genetic endowments, social relations, etc.
2. A privileged position; the possession of an advantage white persons enjoy over non–white persons.
3. a. The special right or immunity attaching to white persons as a social relation; prerogative.
b. display of white privilege, a social expression of a white person or persons demanding to be treated as a member or members of the socially privileged class.
4. a. To invest white persons with a privilege or privileges; to grant to white persons a particular right or immunity; to benefit or favor specially white persons; to invest white persons with special honorable distinctions.
b. To avail oneself of a privilege owing to one as a white person.
5. To authorize or license of white person or persons what is forbidden or wrong for non–whites; to justify, excuse.
6. To give to white persons special freedom or immunity from some liability or burden to which non–white persons are subject; to exempt.

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
4624 posts
Tue Jun-07-05 07:52 PM

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122. "and what the hell is the black condition?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

melanin is a disease? Demystify this, please.

-Otto

  

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