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Subject: "Hip-hop beats/production: the only musical genre not in a lull/holding p..." This topic is locked.
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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39983 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 02:39 PM

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"Poll question: Hip-hop beats/production: the only musical genre not in a lull/holding p..."


  

          

what i mean is, do you think that hip-hop production is the only type of music right now that isn't stagnant or in an endless, increasingly impotent rehash of itself? that isn't the same thing as saying you prefer beats NOW vs. 5, 10, 15 years ago, just do you think it's still interesting, original, diverse.

(note: i am NOT talking about emceeing here, don't complicate this poll.)

i grew up listening to 3 main genres: hip-hop, rock, and electronic music. the latter 2 i think have been in a lull for years. in coming to the conclusion that hip-hop *music* is the only style remaining vibrant, exciting, inventive, and fun right now, i also considered jazz (dead as biggie), classical with a lowercase c (R.I.P. 1940s? even if you want to include minimalism and avant garde, reich's, glass', axelrod's, etc. best music is all decades behind them), and country (fell from grace decades ago). i guess arguments could be made for reggae and folk but i'm out of my element there. house heads, what do you say, am i off in saying electronic music as a whole is stagnant? is someone going to bring up jazzanova? and rock fans, save the names of lame and obscure indie bands, they suck.

Poll result (47 votes)
Agree (18 votes)Vote
Disagree (25 votes)Vote
Hi look at me I can't make a decision (4 votes)Vote

  

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
no one? not even a vote? or are you still marinading.
Nov 28th 2006
1
r&b is crap.
Nov 28th 2006
15
      RE: r&b is crap.
Nov 28th 2006
46
*good natured rant forthcoming*
Nov 28th 2006
2
FURTHERMORE,
Nov 28th 2006
3
RE: *good natured rant forthcoming*
Nov 28th 2006
5
zero 7 is elevator music.
Nov 28th 2006
17
i'd call it 'airport music'
Nov 28th 2006
18
      it has its place
Nov 28th 2006
25
           what's wrong with 'safe'?
Nov 28th 2006
30
                "it has its place"
Nov 28th 2006
40
                LOL ->RE: what's wrong with 'safe'?
Nov 29th 2006
92
lol@thievery corp
Nov 28th 2006
20
dear god, do they suck
Nov 28th 2006
23
*kicks you square in the chest*
Nov 28th 2006
26
jazzanova's remixes>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>their own material
Nov 28th 2006
32
      Ironically, I think it's the opposite.
Nov 28th 2006
34
      ..admittedly, i'm yet to hear the second set
Nov 28th 2006
37
      RE: jazzanova's remixes>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>their own material
Jan 04th 2007
138
can't cosign on Jazzanova, but Thievery Corp DO indeed suck.
Nov 28th 2006
29
      as in "AFKAP doesn't like them" suck or "untalented" suck?
Nov 28th 2006
33
           thievery corp<<<<<<<<<<FL/SS
Nov 28th 2006
35
           "untalented suck"
Nov 28th 2006
38
           TC aren't wack, just paint by numbers
Nov 28th 2006
47
                ok, I JUST saw this...
Nov 29th 2006
100
                     RE: ok, I JUST saw this...
Nov 29th 2006
102
                          aw, for fucks sakes...
Nov 29th 2006
105
                               RE: aw, for fucks sakes...
Nov 29th 2006
106
                                    you still didn't answer my question.
Nov 29th 2006
109
                                         RE: you still didn't answer my question.
Nov 29th 2006
110
           as in 'boring, style over substance, reheated dub' suck.
Nov 28th 2006
39
                well, I'll accept that. You bring up a valid point.
Nov 28th 2006
42
                     you deserve to be smitten in the ass with a bolt of lightning
Nov 28th 2006
44
                          right-
Nov 28th 2006
58
                          sooooooooooo...
Nov 29th 2006
98
                               why do you like music you consider boring?
Nov 29th 2006
101
                                    we're getting WAAAAY off topic...
Nov 29th 2006
103
                                    RE: we're getting WAAAAY off topic...
Nov 29th 2006
104
                                    RE: why do you like music you consider boring?
Jan 04th 2007
144
                                         nah
Jan 04th 2007
146
                                              RE: nah
Jan 04th 2007
163
^^^has never heard "Heart is a lonely Hunter" ^^^
Nov 28th 2006
24
      i like air
Nov 28th 2006
28
      LOL.
Nov 28th 2006
36
      LMAO
Nov 28th 2006
41
      Air isn't all light either
Nov 28th 2006
48
RE: *good natured rant forthcoming*
Jan 04th 2007
139
you must be out of your mind if you think Electronic is stagnant
Nov 28th 2006
4
RE: you must be out of your mind if you think Electronic is stagnant
Nov 28th 2006
6
      RE: you must be out of your mind if you think Electronic is stagnant
Nov 28th 2006
22
           RE: you must be out of your mind if you think Electronic is stagnant
Nov 28th 2006
49
I agree
Nov 28th 2006
7
this post is very american
Nov 28th 2006
8
SPEAK ON IT
Nov 28th 2006
10
      ah, pay his America-hating ass no mind.
Nov 28th 2006
13
           ^ thinks he knows everything about everyone + everything
Nov 29th 2006
113
                nah...sounds like that's YOU you're describing
Nov 29th 2006
114
hmmm...
Nov 28th 2006
9
2 things
Nov 28th 2006
12
      good point
Nov 28th 2006
14
      right.. it's in the hands of the MCs and vocalists to take it
Nov 28th 2006
50
      the modern beats dont have much of an edge though
Nov 28th 2006
21
           a lot of that trap/snap/hyphy stuff has edge
Nov 28th 2006
27
           some of it does
Nov 28th 2006
31
           i think it does
Nov 28th 2006
51
                in urb clipse said they wanted a mantronix sound for the production
Nov 30th 2006
122
                     a lot of the tricks and techniques of the '80s have been retired
Nov 30th 2006
123
the beats *are* still interesting
Nov 28th 2006
11
like it or not, producers are the rock stars now.
Nov 28th 2006
52
      But also it has to do with your name and what 's hot right now
Nov 28th 2006
64
           not necessarily
Nov 28th 2006
66
                That's my point
Nov 28th 2006
71
                i guess my take is different
Nov 28th 2006
78
                     I see your point, I guess I'm talking about getting popular
Nov 28th 2006
90
                it kills me how artist be like they trying to break new producers
Nov 28th 2006
75
                     RE: it kills me how artist be like they trying to break new producers
Nov 28th 2006
79
                          Curtis is a business man... he knows about profits and losses
Nov 28th 2006
83
grime beats have the edge on hip-hop beats
Nov 28th 2006
16
grime = hip-hop
Nov 28th 2006
54
Nope
Nov 28th 2006
62
      i really need an explination why grime is not hiphop
Nov 28th 2006
63
      It's probably a form of hip hop, but the point is
Nov 28th 2006
65
      RE: i really need an explination why grime is not hiphop
Jan 04th 2007
140
           that's silly
Jan 04th 2007
147
                RE: that's silly
Jan 04th 2007
164
                     RE: that's silly
Jan 04th 2007
165
                          RE: that's silly
Jan 04th 2007
175
      again, grime = hip-hop
Nov 28th 2006
68
           Most people over 21, outside of the bay
Nov 28th 2006
73
           i couldn't care less what "Most people" think
Nov 28th 2006
80
                i can't pinpoint where but it does have potential...
Nov 28th 2006
86
                     lol
Nov 28th 2006
89
                     RE: i can't pinpoint where but it does have potential...
Jan 04th 2007
143
           RE: again, grime = hip-hop
Jan 04th 2007
142
                RE: again, grime = hip-hop
Jan 04th 2007
148
                     RE: again, grime = hip-hop
Jan 04th 2007
166
                          you made good points to the contrary though
Jan 04th 2007
168
                          Jungle MCing...
Jan 07th 2007
189
RE: grime beats have the edge on hip-hop beats
Jan 04th 2007
141
*saves the names of lame and obscure indie bands*
Nov 28th 2006
19
i agree, my sp1200 doesnt
Nov 28th 2006
43
oh shit! u makin beats now!??!?!
Nov 28th 2006
74
      i'm talking about u baby
Nov 29th 2006
112
the old guard hiphop producers are starting to stagnate
Nov 28th 2006
45
RE: the old guard hiphop producers are starting to stagnate
Nov 28th 2006
53
totally
Nov 28th 2006
55
      you just reminded
Nov 29th 2006
94
           ya'll wanna hear will @ his best?
Dec 07th 2006
127
                RE: ya'll wanna hear will @ his best?
Jan 04th 2007
174
Metal is still evolving...
Nov 28th 2006
56
Green...
Nov 28th 2006
57
I agree with Katz about the hook thing, but for a different reason..
Nov 28th 2006
60
RE: Green...
Nov 28th 2006
76
      do you own any synths?
Nov 28th 2006
81
           i did
Nov 28th 2006
85
                Photoshopped Beats (c) howisya
Nov 28th 2006
87
SMH
Nov 28th 2006
59
pretty much.
Nov 28th 2006
67
what are they?
Nov 28th 2006
69
      TVotR and Blood Brothers had me going for a sec...
Nov 28th 2006
70
      Definitely an outlier, but check out that Grizzly Bear album
Dec 07th 2006
133
Another thought
Nov 28th 2006
61
and on that note.... WE NEED A NEW PRINCE PAUL ALBUM NOW!!!!!!!
Nov 28th 2006
72
say word. Prince Paul, The Automator and Nicolay are
Nov 29th 2006
97
      agreed, now imagine if they were on the radio
Nov 29th 2006
99
So why has the album-making game suffered so much?
Nov 28th 2006
77
i find myself agreeing with fire
Nov 28th 2006
82
      but the artists are give beats with hooks already written
Nov 28th 2006
84
           and?
Nov 28th 2006
88
                LOL!!! Imagining an artist speaking up for themselves.
Nov 28th 2006
91
I don't consider hip hop production...
Nov 29th 2006
93
care to back that opinion up with an argument
Nov 29th 2006
95
      RE: care to back that opinion up with an argument
Nov 29th 2006
115
           RE: care to back that opinion up with an argument
Nov 29th 2006
116
                RE: care to back that opinion up with an argument
Nov 30th 2006
117
                RE: care to back that opinion up with an argument
Nov 30th 2006
124
                and another thing...
Nov 30th 2006
118
                I see your point, but those instances of "building" are very rare
Nov 30th 2006
119
                     What people should be paying attention to...
Nov 30th 2006
120
it ain't in a lull, but i can't say that it's the only genre not stagnan...
Nov 29th 2006
96
hip hop seems to be a lot fresher to 'outsiders' from what i read
Nov 29th 2006
107
sort of getting away from the point but you got me
Nov 29th 2006
108
RE: Hip-hop beats/production: the only musical genre not in a lull/holdi...
Nov 29th 2006
111
I Voted "I Dizagree" Cauze I Do
Nov 30th 2006
121
RE: Hip-hop beats/production: the only musical genre not in a lull/holdi...
Dec 07th 2006
125
you peep that sampler yet...
Dec 07th 2006
128
      haven't yet but i will.
Dec 07th 2006
129
           i'm holding out...but its hard.
Dec 07th 2006
131
                RE: i'm holding out...but its hard.
Dec 07th 2006
132
                     rereading what i wrote...
Dec 07th 2006
134
Pharrel, Dr. Dre, Pete Rock, Kanye West . . . have all been slipping
Dec 07th 2006
126
RE: Pharrel, Dr. Dre, Pete Rock, Kanye West . . . have all been slipping
Dec 07th 2006
130
^^
Dec 18th 2006
135
why not.
Jan 02nd 2007
136
RE: Hip-hop beats/production: the only musical genre not in a lull/holdi...
Jan 04th 2007
137
RE: Hip-hop beats/production: the only musical genre not in a lull/holdi...
Jan 04th 2007
149
      RE: Hip-hop beats/production: the only musical genre not in a lull/holdi...
Jan 04th 2007
172
           RE: Hip-hop beats/production: the only musical genre not in a lull/holdi...
Jan 04th 2007
176
                RE: Hip-hop beats/production: the only musical genre not in a lull/holdi...
Jan 04th 2007
178
                RE: Hip-hop beats/production: the only musical genre not in a lull/holdi...
Jan 04th 2007
180
                     4Hero
Jan 07th 2007
191
                Got me puzzled...
Jan 07th 2007
190
                     you glossed over the key element of what i said:
Jan 07th 2007
194
one thing i'd like to see
Jan 04th 2007
145
they don't know how to RECORD them either..
Jan 04th 2007
150
      well hire people who do
Jan 04th 2007
151
      bedroom production wiped that whole frame of mind out though...
Jan 04th 2007
169
           like i said though
Jan 04th 2007
171
                *aaaachew*
Jan 04th 2007
177
      *cough*
Jan 04th 2007
157
nah, i disagree
Jan 04th 2007
152
RE: nah, i disagree
Jan 04th 2007
153
i got no beef with crunk
Jan 04th 2007
170
      RE: i got no beef with crunk
Jan 04th 2007
173
           lil' jon used to be a house dj here
Jan 04th 2007
179
                in his case, yes..
Jan 04th 2007
181
RE: nah, i disagree
Jan 04th 2007
182
      dude, i'm with you on the quality of 4 hero's work
Jan 06th 2007
185
           Can you give examples?
Jan 07th 2007
193
I'd venture to suggest that Americana is doing aight now
Jan 04th 2007
154
interesting
Jan 04th 2007
159
      The problem with roots musics in general though
Jan 04th 2007
162
           i'll allow it (c) mills lane
Jan 04th 2007
167
beat making is underated and that probably feeds its progress.
Jan 04th 2007
155
this is crucial, i think.
Jan 04th 2007
156
      $300k will buy you a hit loop!!!
Jan 04th 2007
158
      cats like michael jackson are 1st hand examples of good "beats"
Jan 04th 2007
161
i'm going to go out on a limb here and say...
Jan 04th 2007
160
dubstep makes this POST OVER
Jan 06th 2007
183
grime>>>>dubstep
Jan 06th 2007
184
as far as electronica
Jan 06th 2007
186
isn't that more pop?
Jan 06th 2007
187
      i consider it to be on the "techno" end of the spectrum
Jan 12th 2007
203
dubstep
Jan 07th 2007
188
i find dubstep can often be quite boring and rhythmically dead
Jan 07th 2007
192
i semi-agree
Jan 12th 2007
195
so did you semi vote no? voters came back w/ a vengeance!
Jan 12th 2007
196
      RE: so did you semi vote no? voters came back w/ a vengeance!
Jan 12th 2007
197
           RE: so did you semi vote no? voters came back w/ a vengeance!
Jan 12th 2007
198
                yeah, we're on the same page with this one
Jan 12th 2007
199
                     it's not easy being green (c) kermit
Jan 12th 2007
200
                          it aint eassyyy beeing whiiiiiite (c) Franklin/Gob
Jan 12th 2007
201
Q: what are the beats/producers that inspired this post?
Jan 12th 2007
202
RE: Q: what are the beats/producers that inspired this post?
Jan 13th 2007
204
indy rock is starting to shit on hiphop
Feb 01st 2007
205
elaborate
Feb 01st 2007
206
      a lot of studio experimentation going on...
Feb 01st 2007
207
           I don't think this is particularly new at all...
Feb 01st 2007
208
           RE: a lot of studio experimentation going on...
Feb 01st 2007
209
                i ALWAYS exaggerate to make a point
Feb 01st 2007
210
                     emo?
Feb 01st 2007
211
                          to be honest i don't listen to the lyrics that much
Feb 01st 2007
213
                               bwahaha.
Feb 01st 2007
214
                                    i know... but i spent so much time hating rock, its nice to have anythin...
Feb 02nd 2007
215
                                         freeform, abstract lyrics in rock
Feb 02nd 2007
216
This is a stupid post
Feb 01st 2007
212
^ as a companion to:
Feb 07th 2007
217
*glad this didn't get deleted*
Mar 07th 2007
218

howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39983 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 03:24 PM

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1. "no one? not even a vote? or are you still marinading."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i left out r&b. does anyone think r&b is exciting and original right now? i'm not saying it is or isn't. maybe it's a case of what you prefer since there are definitely some great and intesting singers now, although not usually on the radio.

i left out pop and i'd be surprised if anyone could make a good argument for that. i can't stand the "american idol"-ization of pop even though in a technical sense some of them are good singers (it's just so bland and cliche though).

btw the phrase that got cut off was "holding pattern."

  

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shockzilla
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37800 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 05:31 PM

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15. "r&b is crap."
In response to Reply # 1


          

there are far too few exceptions to deny it.

  

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pk00
Member since Dec 03rd 2005
750 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 07:13 PM

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46. "RE: r&b is crap."
In response to Reply # 15


          

hip-hop beats/production = rnb beats/production these days

  

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disco dj
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Tue Nov-28-06 03:49 PM

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2. "*good natured rant forthcoming*"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

DUDE.


Electronic Music? Stagnant?

Zero 7
Theivery Corp

on second thought I'm not even gonna name a list "who's who in electronica". It's pointless and time consuming. YOU know who's good.

Electronica/Dance Music is popping up so fast I can't even keep up with it all. AND it's getting better everyday. I'm even to the point of buying records from the label I WORK for, just so I can have all the production credits, etc as opposed to a bag full of promos. AND it's all getting better everyday. That's what kills me when people go "House is getting Stale". SHEEEIT.

AND with subgenres like Broken Beat and Nu-Soul ( I think that sounds stupid, btw) there's more shit dropping than I can even follow. Established cats (Blaze , Vikter Duplaix, Spacek, Franck Roger, Roni Size) are all going in new directions CONSTANTLY, so you never know what to expect...




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disco dj
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Tue Nov-28-06 03:52 PM

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3. "FURTHERMORE,"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

isn't that what everybody complains about?

"I can't keep up with all the subgenres of Electronica..."

Deep House, Hard Trance, DnB, Techno, IDM, Tech-House, Trance, Ambient, Nu-Jazz, Broken Beat, etc...

that's PROOF it's constantly evolving.

______________



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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39983 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 04:14 PM

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5. "RE: *good natured rant forthcoming*"
In response to Reply # 2
Tue Nov-28-06 04:19 PM by howisya

  

          

>Electronic Music? Stagnant?

yeah.. and a couple good examples:


>Zero 7
>Theivery Corp

i'm not saying these artists are bad. i even have hometown love for TC. but neither artist is bringing anything particularly new, or, due to the nature of "lounge" music, exciting to the table. these are good artists, it's just not advancing the artform.


>on second thought I'm not even gonna name a list "who's who in
>electronica". It's pointless and time consuming. YOU know
>who's good.

i do. i also know who's been slacking, who just rehashes tried and true formulas (their own or others'), who is all hype, who's naughty or nice, santa claus is coming to town, etc.

this is music i love but i'm very honest about the current state of.


>Electronica/Dance Music is popping up so fast I can't even
>keep up with it all. AND it's getting better everyday.

is it getting better, or are you just still enjoying it? i mean i enjoy it, too, but i can't agree with the improvement if there's no advancement. nothing new's come along, nothing's been a shining example, there hasn't been a classic in a long time that i know of.


>That's what kills me when people go "House is getting Stale".
>SHEEEIT.

house is not my area of expertise so elaborations on this thesis are exactly what i'm asking for.


>AND with subgenres like Broken Beat

i want to say this is one of the most interesting and exciting things to come along in a while but even that's been around for at least a decade, right? remember when styles or (sorry, BSharp) sub-genres were sprouting up every year? what happened? some movements are still alive (broken beat and house come to mind, not so much my beloved IDM) but they're not really advancing IMO.


>Deep House, Hard Trance, DnB, Techno, IDM, Tech-House, Trance, Ambient, Nu-Jazz, Broken Beat, etc...
>
>that's PROOF it's constantly evolving.

it evolved for a long time and then stopped. prove me wrong though.


>and Nu-Soul ( I think that
>sounds stupid, btw) there's more shit dropping than I can even
>follow. Established cats (Blaze , Vikter Duplaix, Spacek,
>Franck Roger, Roni Size) are all going in new directions
>CONSTANTLY, so you never know what to expect...

what has roni size done in the last 6 years besides collect residuals and DJ fees?

  

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shockzilla
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Tue Nov-28-06 05:33 PM

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17. "zero 7 is elevator music."
In response to Reply # 2


          

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Nov-28-06 05:35 PM

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18. "i'd call it 'airport music'"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

and i don't even mean that as a dis

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shockzilla
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Tue Nov-28-06 05:53 PM

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25. "it has its place"
In response to Reply # 18


          

but it's just so.. safe.

  

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disco dj
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Tue Nov-28-06 05:59 PM

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30. "what's wrong with 'safe'?"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

sometimes I just wanna chill out and read a book.

______________



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shockzilla
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37800 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 06:17 PM

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40. ""it has its place""
In response to Reply # 30


          

and i really like sia's voice

(go aussie!)

i shouldn't recommend driving to it, though.

  

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MEMEs
Member since Oct 02nd 2005
1031 posts
Wed Nov-29-06 01:27 AM

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92. "LOL ->RE: what's wrong with 'safe'?"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

>sometimes I just wanna chill out and read a book.



<<<<<<WANTED: For spreading hip hop propaganda…

A nation is a historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, and psychological make-up manifested in a common culture.

  

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GumDrops
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Tue Nov-28-06 05:38 PM

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20. "lol@thievery corp"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

they make Air look like Slayer

  

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shockzilla
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23. "dear god, do they suck"
In response to Reply # 20


          

jazzanova are overrated, as well.

(i'm hungover and i'm hating)

  

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disco dj
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26. "*kicks you square in the chest*"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

>jazzanova are overrated, as well.

Overrated as WHAT? Nobody's doing anything remotely similar to what they're doing. It's not like they're run of the mill producers.

I've fuckin' heard it ALL now...


>
>(i'm hungover and i'm hating)

CLEARLY.


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shockzilla
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32. "jazzanova's remixes>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>their own material"
In response to Reply # 26


          

but they are indeed head and shoulders over the rest of that 'nu-jazz' bullshit

  

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disco dj
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34. "Ironically, I think it's the opposite."
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

5 or 6 years ago, i would've agreed with you. but they stepped up BIG TIME on "in Between". Since then, they've been phoning in the remixes.


that second box set was HORRIBLE.


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shockzilla
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37. "..admittedly, i'm yet to hear the second set"
In response to Reply # 34


          

but i wore the first volume out

when i get home, i'll listen to 'in between' again

it just never really grabbed me

  

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sweetL
Member since Nov 29th 2006
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Thu Jan-04-07 06:48 AM

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138. "RE: jazzanova's remixes>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>their own material"
In response to Reply # 32


          

lieeees!

anyone whos heard 'in between' will disagree. was ahead of its time.

mark de clive lowe is king.

---------------------
some... kinda?

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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29. "can't cosign on Jazzanova, but Thievery Corp DO indeed suck."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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disco dj
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33. "as in "AFKAP doesn't like them" suck or "untalented" suck?"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

based on our exchanges there's a difference. you cosigned on some Timbaland shit in another post, so don't tell me you mean "untalented" suck...

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GumDrops
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35. "thievery corp<<<<<<<<<<FL/SS"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

  

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shockzilla
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38. ""untalented suck""
In response to Reply # 33


          

i'll take back my jazzanova call

but thievery corp are wack as fuck.

  

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howisya
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Tue Nov-28-06 07:16 PM

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47. "TC aren't wack, just paint by numbers"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

TC and Zero 7 are best as background music.. anyway it wasn't my point to put them down as artists, i just wanted to debate disco dj on the point that they're advancing anything. to me they're perfect examples of retreading ground that was broken 10 years or more earlier. they're stagnant and just not as good, and that's what this topic is about.

  

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disco dj
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100. "ok, I JUST saw this..."
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

> i just wanted to debate
>disco dj on the point that they're advancing anything.

fair enough. Maybe they aren't breaking new ground. maybe they're building on the model laid by cats like Kruder and Dorfmeister and to some extent Jazzanova. BUT are they not better than average? IMO ( which apparently is in the minority) I look FORWARD to hearing music from these dudes.

to me
>they're perfect examples of retreading ground that was broken
>10 years or more earlier. they're stagnant and just not as
>good, and that's what this topic is about.


Dude. this whole thing started by someone making the statement that Hip-Hop was the only genre of music that wasn't stagnant. when we ALL know that it's the most cookie cutter shit on the planet ( with R&B coming in a close second). Now I can hear the backpackers running this way ready to call me all types of names and so forth, so I wrap it up with a question.

If Hip-Hop is so innovative these days, why is there a "Hip-Hop is dead" post every 5 minutes?

I've yet to see an "Electronica is dead" or "what can we do to improve Dance Music" post...


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howisya
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Wed Nov-29-06 09:29 AM

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102. "RE: ok, I JUST saw this..."
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

>fair enough. Maybe they aren't breaking new ground. maybe
>they're building on the model laid by cats like Kruder and
>Dorfmeister and to some extent Jazzanova. BUT are they not
>better than average? IMO ( which apparently is in the
>minority) I look FORWARD to hearing music from these dudes.

that wasn't my point. the best rock bands who are actually popular (i.e. not niche or obscure) right now are arguably "better than average" and nothing more. that's why rock isn't going anywhere and it's dull. electronic music is in a rut. i already ran thru my opinions on the state of different genres. i'm asking you to make a solid argument that electronic music (or whatever genre you pick to defend) isn't stagnant, not asking you whether or not you still like any current artists (i do, too!) or if they're any good at all (of course they are).


>to me
>>they're perfect examples of retreading ground that was
>broken
>>10 years or more earlier. they're stagnant and just not as
>>good, and that's what this topic is about.
>
>
>Dude. this whole thing started by someone making the statement
>that Hip-Hop was the only genre of music that wasn't stagnant.

hip-hop PRODUCTION/beats/music, not the whole enchilada (emceeing).


>when we ALL know that it's the most cookie cutter shit on the
>planet ( with R&B coming in a close second). Now I can hear
>the backpackers running this way ready to call me all types of
>names and so forth, so I wrap it up with a question.
>
>If Hip-Hop is so innovative these days, why is there a
>"Hip-Hop is dead" post every 5 minutes?

i wouldn't know, i don't click on them.


>I've yet to see an "Electronica is dead" or "what can we do to
>improve Dance Music" post...

"you're too old, let go, nobody listens to techno" -eminem

  

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disco dj
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Wed Nov-29-06 09:43 AM

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105. "aw, for fucks sakes..."
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

>> i
>already ran thru my opinions on the state of different genres.
>i'm asking you to make a solid argument that electronic music
>(or whatever genre you pick to defend) isn't stagnant,


I started out with House. Your response was you don't know much about House. So my explaining how it has evolved would have been pointless...


>>Dude. this whole thing started by someone making the
>statement
>>that Hip-Hop was the only genre of music that wasn't
>stagnant.
>
>hip-hop PRODUCTION/beats/music, not the whole enchilada
>(emceeing).
>


either way. my point still stands.
>

>>
>>If Hip-Hop is so innovative these days, why is there a
>>"Hip-Hop is dead" post every 5 minutes?
>
>i wouldn't know, i don't click on them.


that's the mother of all cop-outs. that's basically saying "If I didn't see it, it didn't happen". I call bullshit.




>
>
>>I've yet to see an "Electronica is dead" or "what can we do
>to
>>improve Dance Music" post...


>
>"you're too old, let go, nobody listens to techno" -eminem

he's right. I don't listen to Techno either. But explain to me how eminem has broken new ground again?

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Wed Nov-29-06 09:49 AM

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106. "RE: aw, for fucks sakes..."
In response to Reply # 105


  

          

>I started out with House. Your response was you don't know
>much about House. So my explaining how it has evolved would
>have been pointless...

i was just warning you that it wouldn't be a level discussion, i didn't say i wouldn't listen to you.


>>>Dude. this whole thing started by someone making the
>>statement
>>>that Hip-Hop was the only genre of music that wasn't
>>stagnant.
>>
>>hip-hop PRODUCTION/beats/music, not the whole enchilada
>>(emceeing).
>>
>
>
>either way. my point still stands.

it's not much different from what i myself implied elsewhere in this topic. there's a reason i wanted to exclude that from the discussion.


>>>
>>>If Hip-Hop is so innovative these days, why is there a
>>>"Hip-Hop is dead" post every 5 minutes?
>>
>>i wouldn't know, i don't click on them.
>
>
>that's the mother of all cop-outs. that's basically saying "If
>I didn't see it, it didn't happen". I call bullshit.

i don't click on them, what do you want me to pretend? i know people are unhappy with hip-hop as a whole but i'm talking about the production and making a specific point about it. if you look back to my original post, i said i wasn't asking if people prefered beats today to the beats of yore, i only asked if people think hip-hop production is the only genre still advancing and invited people to elaborate on their answer.


>>"you're too old, let go, nobody listens to techno" -eminem
>
>he's right. I don't listen to Techno either. But explain to me
>how eminem has broken new ground again?

i was being facetious, that lyric is a joke. i remember when i was in copenhagen in 2002, in a country where techno is actually very popular, and a local teenage boy was leadenly singing along to that very lyric and i found it very amusing.

  

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disco dj
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109. "you still didn't answer my question."
In response to Reply # 106


  

          

how has eminem ( who is a respected artist in Hip-Hop) evolved?

I'll acknowledge we weren't talking about MC's but If i'm not mistaken em is also a producer.

how has he advnaced Hip-Hop? What's he doing that's so creative?

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howisya
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Wed Nov-29-06 10:01 AM

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110. "RE: you still didn't answer my question."
In response to Reply # 109


  

          

>how has eminem ( who is a respected artist in Hip-Hop)
>evolved?

how does the progress of one person relate to the topic? just like i wouldn't make sweeping generalizations about the state of electronic music based on zero 7 alone, what difference does it make if i spend the next 2 minutes either defending or criticizing eminem?


>how has he advnaced Hip-Hop? What's he doing that's so
>creative?

i like his beats but i don't love them. other than that we'll have to wait for the next eminem production thread for me to put any more thought into that question (no dis to you btw, i'm just trying to steer us back on topic).

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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39. "as in 'boring, style over substance, reheated dub' suck."
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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disco dj
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Tue Nov-28-06 06:25 PM

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42. "well, I'll accept that. You bring up a valid point."
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

they ARE critic's darlings, and while I stumbled upon Zero 7 on my own without any prompting, I'll admit I'd heard Theivery Corp's name mentioned amongst the downtempo hipster crowd ( they practically had their own fan zine courtesy of the good people at URB), and I decided to give them a listen. But I do actually like them. I'd hardly call them boring. If ANYBODY's boring of the groups we've discussed, it'd be Air ( and I like them too)


what's the consensus on Aim ( "Cold Water Music " is that shit...)




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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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44. "you deserve to be smitten in the ass with a bolt of lightning"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

for calling Air boring

Air has more edge than any of these other bands that have followed in their wake... they're not even in the same category as the Zero7s and Thievery Corps and what not. they're way, way above.

_____________________

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shockzilla
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58. "right-"
In response to Reply # 44


          

and i think 10000 hz legend is their best album

which puts me in the minority there, it seems

  

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disco dj
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98. "sooooooooooo..."
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

YOU can say TC is untalented, and that's ok, BUT when I say Air is boring (AFTER stating that I do in fact LIKE them) and that brings the Wrath of God down upon my ass?


nice.





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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Wed Nov-29-06 09:24 AM

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101. "why do you like music you consider boring?"
In response to Reply # 98


  

          

air are tried and true veterans of modern electronic music, thievery corporation have a hipster following, make decent music, and that's about it. name their classics? you could reply to my "on topic" replies to you but you want to dis air and defend TC? why?

  

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disco dj
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Wed Nov-29-06 09:36 AM

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103. "we're getting WAAAAY off topic..."
In response to Reply # 101


  

          

first of all I don't "like music i consider boring". My response was to if *I* personally had to choose one of the three acts we were talking about being boring, MY choice would be Air. BUT I also said when the name first came up that I liked Air, so it's not about me dissing them.

look at it this way: if you have 3 of your favorite foods on the same plate, you'll STILL have to eat one of them first. Subsqeuently, one of them would also be your LAST choice.

>air are tried and true veterans of modern electronic music,

agreed.
>thievery corporation have a hipster following, make decent
>music, and that's about it.

well, in my book that's successful, whether we like it or not. The same applies to lame ass bands like The Strokes, Yeah yeah yeah's and ( insert trendy retro rock band).

>name their classics?

that's relative, the fact that they're getting shit on here makes that argument moot. Jay -Z has sold ten gazillion albums and has made many 'classics'. I own none of them, so "classic" is meaningless within the confines of this debate...

you could
>reply to my "on topic" replies to you but you want to dis air
>and defend TC? why?

I just answered that. I'm not dissing anybody.




bottom line. We can argue all day about how TC sucks or whatever, but that genre of music is STILL miles ahead of anything out there. Isn't that what we were SUPPOSED to be talking about?

I mean would we really rather hear Timbaland and Kanye West than Zero 7 and Thievery Corp?


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howisya
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Wed Nov-29-06 09:42 AM

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104. "RE: we're getting WAAAAY off topic..."
In response to Reply # 103


  

          

>I mean would we really rather hear Timbaland and Kanye West
>than Zero 7 and Thievery Corp?

actually, yes, which was my point. i like how IMO timbo and kanye are doing interesting, different, original (not "discovering electricity" original but "fresh takes on existing styles, sounds, and techniques" original) things in their music, whereas zero 7 and thievery corp are just making "good" but bland rehashes of music done much better 10 years ago. so it isn't miles ahead, it hasn't gone anywhere and that's the problem with the genre (which, may i remind you, i am in love with).

  

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sweetL
Member since Nov 29th 2006
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Thu Jan-04-07 07:03 AM

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144. "RE: why do you like music you consider boring?"
In response to Reply # 101


          

no... air are boring.

air are as dull as kraftwerk, yet people rate them still.

---------------------
some... kinda?

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Jan-04-07 08:36 AM

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146. "nah"
In response to Reply # 144
Thu Jan-04-07 08:37 AM by howisya

  

          

kraftwerk >>>> air >> jazzanova
true story

i really rate you... haha i love how the brits use that verb...

  

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sweetL
Member since Nov 29th 2006
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Thu Jan-04-07 10:46 AM

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163. "RE: nah"
In response to Reply # 146


          

rate?

lol... yeah, funny how our word patterns change all the time, still...

(theres another one! 'still' haha)


---------------------
some... kinda?

  

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disco dj
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24. "^^^has never heard "Heart is a lonely Hunter" ^^^"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

they make some light joints, but it ain't ALL light like Air...

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GumDrops
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28. "i like air"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

but thievery corp is the type of music i think comes free with ikea furniture

  

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disco dj
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36. "LOL."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

>but thievery corp is the type of music i think comes free
>with ikea furniture

that would be Dirty Vegas or Esthero...



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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Nov-28-06 06:20 PM

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41. "LMAO"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

>but thievery corp is the type of music i think comes free
>with ikea furniture

that's how i actually think of them, too...

_____________________

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Tue Nov-28-06 07:21 PM

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48. "Air isn't all light either"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

case in point: 10,000 Hz Legend. not their finest work, but not easy listening. it's fine though that Air have their lane and it's not aggressive or abrasive. they do what they do amazing well and i will keep buying their albums. anyway why does this have to devolve into a pointless A vs. B pissing contest? the point of this topic isn't to compare "like" artists, it's to compare hip-hop to other genres in terms of advancement or to put up an argument in favor of or against the present state of individual genres, not specific artists.

  

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sweetL
Member since Nov 29th 2006
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Thu Jan-04-07 06:49 AM

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139. "RE: *good natured rant forthcoming*"
In response to Reply # 2


          

theivery corp are great.

zero 7... are pretty middle of the road... they fill the gap that everything but the girl left...

but could never step into say, bjorks shoes, or massive attacks kicks..


---------------------
some... kinda?

  

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javi222
Member since Jun 14th 2003
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4. "you must be out of your mind if you think Electronic is stagnant"
In response to Reply # 0


          

and its evolving much more than hip hop...

tons of hip hop producers are doing what was done 10+ years ago...

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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6. "RE: you must be out of your mind if you think Electronic is stagnant"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

>and its evolving much more than hip hop...
>
>tons of hip hop producers are doing what was done 10+ years
>ago...

i agree with this, hip-hop is still playing catch-up to what we've been listening to for 10+ years. but is it still evolving, in 2006? or was it for a long time just so far ahead that we haven't noticed that nothing new or great has come along in a while? the best electronic album i heard this year was hip-hop-inspired (dabrye's 'two/three'), or should i say inspired by hip-hop that was inspired by electronic music.

  

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javi222
Member since Jun 14th 2003
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22. "RE: you must be out of your mind if you think Electronic is stagnant"
In response to Reply # 6


          

>the best electronic album i heard this year
>was hip-hop-inspired (dabrye's 'two/three'), or should i say
>inspired by hip-hop that was inspired by electronic music.

I think both inspire each other... though its a shame that in the hip hop area those who take it to another level go unoticed... people like El-P, Fat Jon, Dj Spinna, Nujabes, Eligh, Prefuse 73 etc. barely get regonition while Kanye and Just Blaze are held as geniuses for reworking what has already been done...

  

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howisya
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Tue Nov-28-06 07:23 PM

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49. "RE: you must be out of your mind if you think Electronic is stagnant"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

>I think both inspire each other... though its a shame that in
>the hip hop area those who take it to another level go
>unoticed... people like El-P, Fat Jon, Dj Spinna, Nujabes,
>Eligh, Prefuse 73 etc. barely get regonition while Kanye and
>Just Blaze are held as geniuses for reworking what has already
>been done...

i agree with all of the above. to me the most interesting music being made right now in electronic music are those artists who are electronic/hip-hop hybrids like some of the names you listed. i think nujabes and fat jon have gotten a fair share of samurai champloo fallout love, and personally i love kanye and just blaze, so it's not black and white you know.

  

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Alphabet
Member since Jun 28th 2003
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Tue Nov-28-06 05:14 PM

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7. "I agree"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Nov-28-06 05:14 PM by Alphabet

  

          

even though I see you talking about vs. other genres..

but I mean as far as inside of hip-hop..I'm findign my self thinking that the production is the only this really still suprising me and keepign shit 'fun' and unexpected..

I mean I've heard plenty of times where a emcee acually 'fucked up the vibe on the SONG' by acually spitting on it!..

I still hear new sounds, ways to flip shit adn ect.. in hip-hop production..as far as the rhyme department..even the good and great ones you have a feeling you've heard it all before at this point..underground AND commercial emcees I might add..

#PicABeat Audio Photo series. Where the beat is inspired by the photo.
http://soundcloud.com/KingAkai

http://kingakai.com

“I love these bitches, man. I really do.â€
- Andre 3000

  

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tohunga
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8. "this post is very american"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

_________________________
http://www.paulwalsh.co.nz
art.design.comics.blog.etc

  

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howisya
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10. "SPEAK ON IT"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

this is supposed to open up a dialogue and challenge the notion that the lesson no longer has "in-depth music discussion." offended by my U.S.-centric argument? debate me.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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13. "ah, pay his America-hating ass no mind."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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tohunga
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113. "^ thinks he knows everything about everyone + everything"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

excuse me, could you sit up straight? your gigantic ego seems to be affecting the gravitational field of the Earth.

don't you have a direct-to-VHS movie to distribute?

_________________________
http://www.paulwalsh.co.nz
art.design.comics.blog.etc

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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114. "nah...sounds like that's YOU you're describing"
In response to Reply # 113


  

          


>don't you have a direct-to-VHS movie to distribute?

ha... that was *almost* funny.

you're making progress, nimrod!

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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9. "hmmm..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

hip-hop IS coming forth with new sounds to some degree... but in a way, aren't they kinda reworkings of OLD sounds? (you can make a case that a lot of this southern stuff is a rehash of old Miami bass and early 808 stuff)

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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12. "2 things"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

1. there are too many things going on/divergent movements in hip-hop production right now for that argument to stick

and

2. while clearly forefathers to the popular sound of today, miami bass and early '80s electro didn't have the "kitchen sink" maximalist aesthetic that a lot of the 808/drum machine-driven beats of today have. even polow da don throws in acoustic guitars, synth washes, etc. it's not so mimimalistic even if it's still decried as too minimalist by some (MySP1200 comes to mind).

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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14. "good point"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

at the moment, hip-hop production actually IS as innovative as it's ever been since the Bomb Squad era, but it's easy to overlook it because while the ingredients being mixed into the batter as more diverse than ever, ultimately the batter is being poured into the same cake pan (so to speak)

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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howisya
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50. "right.. it's in the hands of the MCs and vocalists to take it"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

...to the next level. we're still waiting on that and we may be waiting for a very long time.

  

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GumDrops
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21. "the modern beats dont have much of an edge though"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

theyre using the same sounds in a fresh way but by and large they dont have the 'edge' that the beats in the mid 80s did. theyre all produced very cleanly and sterile so even if theyre not made with huge budgets, thats what theyre aspiring to. and it shows.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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27. "a lot of that trap/snap/hyphy stuff has edge"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

maybe even too much of it!

i don't enjoy that kind of music at all, but i don't think i can accuse it of being too sterile or "safe"

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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GumDrops
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31. "some of it does"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

which is the stuff i like.

but a lot of it is too slick and polished. it takes all the bite out of the production.

  

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howisya
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51. "i think it does"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

a lot of that '80s edge came from the fact that those sounds at the time were so otherworldly and fresh and new to an urban audience. it was using new technology and using it in a way very different from how disco producers were using it (i mean there was an obvious lineage, but it wasn't the same at all). we've had 25+ years to get used to the sound and musical aesthetic, so the surprise is gone and thus you could perceive there being less of an "edge." but i agree w/ AFKAP, there still is VERY MUCH an edge to the music sprouting up, it's just less sudden and more gradual. organized noize, timbaland, the neptunes, dre, etc. eased us into the synths & live instruments and away from the exclusively samples/breakbeats era.

  

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GumDrops
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122. "in urb clipse said they wanted a mantronix sound for the production"
In response to Reply # 51
Thu Nov-30-06 08:19 AM by GumDrops

  

          

i see what they mean for the bulk of HHNF but spare as those beats are, theyre just not as hard as mantronix or rick rubin beats from the mid 80s (never mind that with tracks that bare you need more interesting drum programming)

  

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howisya
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123. "a lot of the tricks and techniques of the '80s have been retired"
In response to Reply # 122


  

          

you can't program drums like rick rubin (well, sam sever, but you get my point) now or for some time without it being obvious biting or overly nostalgiac homage. yeah the drums hit hard but they were on a primative level technologically and musically. for better or worse, with technology production has become a whole lot more advanced and sophisticated (even in minimalist beats), not to mention the far more time and MONEY spent on mixing and engineering. back then it was more punk rock aesthetic, you have your drum machine and maybe some sample stabs here and there, you mix down the track and it's through. then dre and some others brought more of a nuanced and deliberate take on the music. even arthur baker wasn't all that fussy about the polish of the track. things were more basic back then and a) sometimes less is more, and b) we have an unbreakable mental association with that sound so that's why we sometimes say it's better or glorify it.

  

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GumDrops
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11. "the beats *are* still interesting"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Nov-28-06 05:25 PM by GumDrops

  

          

but its not like everyones pushing the bar in terms of production either
theres a lot of really terrible stuff being produced
youre right though, thats the most interesting part of most new hip hop, not the lyrics (i think i stopped really listening to lyrics years ago)
i think most people recognise this - even if you dont like the change in beat-styles, that IS where the innovation seems to be going in terms of hip hop, and you have to applaud hip hop on some level for not staying the same and getting comfortable
but i should still be able to listen to hip hop for more than just the beats
and this year or the past year or two, i dont think much has come out thats really been a dramatic shift from whats gone on before, as far as US hip hop

  

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howisya
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52. "like it or not, producers are the rock stars now."
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

so bear that in mind all you OK Producers, you have to keep up and you better wow people or you'll be left in the dust with all the '90s "relics." we're definitely in a producer-driven musical climate and i think the level of innovation and diversity (of sounds being listened to, AND disparate elements within a single beat or at least at the disposal of a single producer) are quite high right now.

  

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mmmBop
Member since Mar 10th 2003
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64. "But also it has to do with your name and what 's hot right now"
In response to Reply # 52


          

Alot of Jazze Pha keyboard snap BS is getting all kinds of love and recognition, but that shit is ass and most music lovers know it. The only really talented stuff that's getting praised is by uber-talented people like Timbaland and like a John Mayer or Roots.

  

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howisya
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66. "not necessarily"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

jazze pha is wack most of the time and i don't personally like snap, but i disagree with you, new producers are gaining fame/acclaim/notoriety all of the time now. hip-hop is not as "superproducer"-driven as it was a few years ago. you can be a nobody and be on a multiplatinum album with your songs either being singles or at least considered by popular concensus (listeners and critics) as an album highlight.

  

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mmmBop
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71. "That's my point"
In response to Reply # 66


          

You can get far doing some 5 minute casio BS because that is what's hot right now. You don't have to have talent, just be good at imitating what's hot right now, regardless of how crappy it is.

  

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howisya
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Tue Nov-28-06 11:01 PM

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78. "i guess my take is different"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

a lot of that one-finger melody, amusical casio BS *is* what's hot right now, you're right about that. but you can also just with your talent and creativity be successful. i've said many times that that is one thing i admire 50 and g-unit for, the chances they give unknown producers who are actually talented and just need an opportunity to shine.

  

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mmmBop
Member since Mar 10th 2003
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90. "I see your point, I guess I'm talking about getting popular"
In response to Reply # 78


          

Like getting major play. In order to do that you kind of got to cater to the masses.

  

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imcvspl
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Tue Nov-28-06 10:52 PM

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75. "it kills me how artist be like they trying to break new producers"
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

they just got budgets and no-names is cheap, plus the way shit is now most no name's sound like big names, so you just choose the best knock off for the price. i mean seriously go through all of the scratch articles about up and coming producers. there are 100k+ producers and 10k- producers. how would you spend 500k? two big names, thirteen no names and get some bling with the change.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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howisya
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Tue Nov-28-06 11:03 PM

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79. "RE: it kills me how artist be like they trying to break new producers"
In response to Reply # 75


  

          

well i think that saving money isn't the ONLY reason unknowns get a shot. i think some cliques really do have an ear for good but unknown talents, like g-unit. and i think some, like dipset circa 2005-2006, are just being cheapasses. it's not black and white.

  

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imcvspl
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83. "Curtis is a business man... he knows about profits and losses"
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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GumDrops
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16. "grime beats have the edge on hip-hop beats"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Nov-28-06 05:42 PM by GumDrops

  

          

IMO they really do make hip hop beats look like theyre in a lull as they still have musical 'hunger', an attitude and general rawness that a lot of hip hop beats dont generally have anymore (im guessing cos people dont want to make anything too hard and because that hunger in the genre as a whole isnt as prevalent as it once was)

eg - footsie - scars 2 (on dizzee rascals label)
http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF204971-01-01-01.mp3

  

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howisya
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54. "grime = hip-hop"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

it's yours geographically but it's hip-hop. it's not a separate genre, it's still claimed.

grime
crunk
hyphy
electronic-tinged hip-hop
oddball, pop-flavored hip-hop

these are probably the most exciting things in the production right now.

  

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mmmBop
Member since Mar 10th 2003
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62. "Nope"
In response to Reply # 54


          

Actually all those other things you mentioned except Grime are in alull. Grime beats are killing hip hop beats right now. That Hyphy, Crunk stuff, that shit is a joke and it's been that way for a while now.

  

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imcvspl
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63. "i really need an explination why grime is not hiphop"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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mmmBop
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65. "It's probably a form of hip hop, but the point is"
In response to Reply # 63


          

It's levels above crunk/hyphy production, the beats are also more drum n bassy. If crunk/hyphy production is what is what's refreshing about hip hop right now, then it's in a garbage state. If you pointed to say what Timbaland, the Roots, or Madlib are doing then I would understand, but crunk/hyphy? Nah, most of that stuff gets dismissed as garbage by music lovers pretty quickly, that stuff is for the BET crowd and drunk white girls.

  

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sweetL
Member since Nov 29th 2006
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Thu Jan-04-07 06:51 AM

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140. "RE: i really need an explination why grime is not hiphop"
In response to Reply # 63


          

if only because its in reply to hiphop.... it seperates itself.

---------------------
some... kinda?

  

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howisya
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147. "that's silly"
In response to Reply # 140


  

          

every movement in hip-hop is a reply to a previous movement, grime is just another example. if it were more popular in the U.S. no one would even question it being just another sect of the genre.

  

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sweetL
Member since Nov 29th 2006
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Thu Jan-04-07 10:49 AM

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164. "RE: that's silly"
In response to Reply # 147


          

... thats actually valid point.

i probably seperate it on a personal level, because we have uk hiphop...

---------------------
some... kinda?

  

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howisya
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165. "RE: that's silly"
In response to Reply # 164


  

          

>i probably seperate it on a personal level, because we have uk
>hiphop...

right, which is more traditional/similar to american hip-hop. still, as an outsider listening in, i consider them both branches of hip-hop.

  

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sweetL
Member since Nov 29th 2006
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Thu Jan-04-07 11:42 AM

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175. "RE: that's silly"
In response to Reply # 165


          

fair enough..

did i mention how much i like sway, and the whole terra firma crew in particular klashnekoff? no? now i did.

thankyou


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some... kinda?

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39983 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 10:30 PM

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68. "again, grime = hip-hop"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

grime isn't something totally different from hip-hop, it's still MCing over beats. hyphy is DEFINITELY not in a lull, are you kidding? crunk i'll give you but it's still pretty cool music when done well.

  

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mmmBop
Member since Mar 10th 2003
1183 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 10:50 PM

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73. "Most people over 21, outside of the bay"
In response to Reply # 68


          

Think Hyphy is garbage. It might be "hot" right now, but that doesn't mean it's some refreshing, great shit.

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39983 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 11:05 PM

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80. "i couldn't care less what "Most people" think"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

this topic's about music, not sales or popularity. i respect your not liking hyphy, it's not easy to get into and more people who hear it dislike than like it i'm sure. that said, i'm over 21, live in maryland, and think it's really interesting, vibrant music.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 11:17 PM

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86. "i can't pinpoint where but it does have potential..."
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

but i haven't heard anything i would call really good hyphy yet.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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mmmBop
Member since Mar 10th 2003
1183 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 11:26 PM

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89. "lol"
In response to Reply # 86


          

I see the "potential" too, but most of what I heard is crap.

  

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sweetL
Member since Nov 29th 2006
129 posts
Thu Jan-04-07 06:57 AM

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143. "RE: i can't pinpoint where but it does have potential..."
In response to Reply # 86


          

iv never heard of hyphy... can someone send me an example please?

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sweetL
Member since Nov 29th 2006
129 posts
Thu Jan-04-07 06:56 AM

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142. "RE: again, grime = hip-hop"
In response to Reply # 68


          

back in jungle days... you had mcs over beats.

ragga is mcing over beats.

thats NOT hiphop.

hell, even gil scot heron rhymed over beats, that wasnt hiphop.

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39983 posts
Thu Jan-04-07 08:41 AM

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148. "RE: again, grime = hip-hop"
In response to Reply # 142


  

          

>back in jungle days... you had mcs over beats.
>
>ragga is mcing over beats.
>
>thats NOT hiphop.

i see your point but grime MCing is more similar to U.S. hip-hop than ragga. the production sounds different and the accents are thicker, but so what?


>hell, even gil scot heron rhymed over beats, that wasnt
>hiphop.

no, but it was a precursor to it.

  

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sweetL
Member since Nov 29th 2006
129 posts
Thu Jan-04-07 10:54 AM

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166. "RE: again, grime = hip-hop"
In response to Reply # 148


          

>i see your point but grime MCing is more similar to U.S.
>hip-hop than ragga. the production sounds different and the
>accents are thicker, but so what?

i agree that the rhyme patterns of the top guys NOW are similar to us hiphop - but i disagree from a source point of view - in a way - grime in its core - came from garage... which was a jungle outgrowth... ie: wack lyrics.

i guess iv conceded the whole thing of spittin over beats being hiphop already.... so thats all iv got to say... i think :-\

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Jan-04-07 11:01 AM

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168. "you made good points to the contrary though"
In response to Reply # 166


  

          

re: pre-hip-hop spoken word pioneers & ragga jungle

and you might be right about grime, too, i'm no expert on it

  

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BSharp
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Sun Jan-07-07 11:49 AM

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189. "Jungle MCing..."
In response to Reply # 166


  

          

...might not be considered hip hop, but it's roots are precisely from the same place as hip hop emceeing: talk a little bit over the DJ's music and rhyme here and there as a means of entertaining the crowd. It's almost like hip hop was back at square one...

-------------------------
Fat Beats Radio on EVR
Live each Sunday, 2-4 EST at Eastvillageradio.com
http://www.eastvillageradio.com/modules.php?name=evrshow&showid=6

Black Milk
Popular Demand: 3.13.07
Broken Wax: Vinyl and CD at http://www.fatbeats.com

  

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sweetL
Member since Nov 29th 2006
129 posts
Thu Jan-04-07 06:54 AM

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141. "RE: grime beats have the edge on hip-hop beats"
In response to Reply # 16


          

i dont agree... grime is the suck.

the producers are often unimaginitive, and they are insistent on using the same sounds.

dizzee's beats, wiley's beats, wonder.. skream.. there are a few greats, the rest just output tat. terra danger is another standout.


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shockzilla
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37800 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 05:37 PM

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19. "*saves the names of lame and obscure indie bands*"
In response to Reply # 0


          

..what rock music DO you like, howisya?

  

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fire
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111370 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 06:27 PM

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43. "i agree, my sp1200 doesnt"
In response to Reply # 0


          

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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74. "oh shit! u makin beats now!??!?!"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

< Live Mixshow - Thurs 11PM/EST >
https://twitch.tv/djchiefone

----Mixtape Archives-----
https://soundcloud.com/djchiefone

  

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fire
Charter member
111370 posts
Wed Nov-29-06 06:24 PM

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112. "i'm talking about u baby"
In response to Reply # 74


          

  

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dafriquan
Charter member
24695 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 06:40 PM

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45. "the old guard hiphop producers are starting to stagnate"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Dre and his workers will never surprise me again.
And this is not to say good music will not come
from that camp but they love formulas. yuck!

East Coast producers have no balls left.Or no good samples.
Whichever the case, nothing new there.

Pharell is a dry well.

I just wish the South had better rappers cause
some of the more exciting beats have been coming
from there. There is something from ghetto and
spontaneous about the new sounds from. Matter
of fact as a beatmaker thats the groove i am in.
Last time I went to the west coast. Stay tuned for
Dirty South adventures coming soon.
but fuck that snap music bullshit though.

Grime I don't really listen to but I like the
textures. And again their is something very
urgent and "now" about that sound. I need a
link to a recent compilation please.

I've been liking Will I Am beats recently.
He seems to be listening to everything happening
in hip-hop and simultaneously trying to incorporate
it. He stubbornly mixes motown drums with frail
808 claps. Shit like that. And it works.

All that said, I think hip-hop is going through
a garbage phase. And while other genres are not
evolving, they will seem fresh to me see I am
relatively new to them. I've been listening to
hip-hop non-stop for 17 years. its getting harder
to move me. if i was 18, i'd probably think
"Hollywood" by jay z was a good song....





  

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mrshow
Charter member
12567 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 07:38 PM

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53. "RE: the old guard hiphop producers are starting to stagnate"
In response to Reply # 45


          

I disagree but you're right on the money about Will.I.Am.

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39983 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 07:47 PM

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55. "totally"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

pharrell is running low on ideas (i don't think he's quite done yet but this hasn't been a good year all in all for him)
chad's retired, fired, or pushed even deeper to the background

this should've been primo's year but (what a shock) it wasn't, b/c overall he refuses to do anything different and for most people "more of the same but not as good" isn't good enough

dre's disappointed me

rest in peace dilla

pete rock's done

i think large pro retired.. i hope for the sake of his dignity he retired, but didn't he release a commercial beattape this year?

madlib is eh. not a good 2006.

is puffy still producing or is he just being produced?

timbaland is on fire though. organized noize are quietly on the comeup (if only other artists would work with them!). the roots are doing great IMO but we know they have no chance of working w/ other MCs outside of roots albums.

as for psuedo "new to the game" producers:

rich harrison is fairly interesting and exciting but not doing much hip-hop (is it the MCs, are they afraid?). looking forward to the collab w/ 50.

will.i.am's beats have all been hot this year, i couldn't front if i wanted to. much respect.

i don't consider kanye or just blaze "old guard" and they're still on the top of their game IMO.

  

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moyo
Member since Apr 09th 2006
673 posts
Wed Nov-29-06 05:02 AM

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94. "you just reminded"
In response to Reply # 55


          

me i was trying to get that beat album when i was ordering that shit was sold out. thanks man by the way that is a solid album with some good old school beats on it. now if we could get diamond to drop something.

  

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dj bee-can
Member since Jul 25th 2006
2346 posts
Thu Dec-07-06 11:08 AM

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127. "ya'll wanna hear will @ his best?"
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

then check out that sergio mendes "timeless" album.

all whack rhymes aside the production on this album is stellar and i dont even ride with will like that.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
weigh your words to waste no sound.

  

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sweetL
Member since Nov 29th 2006
129 posts
Thu Jan-04-07 11:38 AM

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174. "RE: ya'll wanna hear will @ his best?"
In response to Reply # 127


          

i have to agree.

only downside is hearing wills voice all the time.

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9766 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 08:10 PM

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56. "Metal is still evolving..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

I HATE what it's turning into but all those lame bands like Children of Bodom and co. who mixes Death Metal with fairy 80's cheese, yngwie-style wankery and hardcore-that stuff was surely not around a couple of years ago. Also, the mixture of modern death metal with black metal styles that bands like Behemoth do feels pretty fresh (and theyr'e good too!!!). Mastodon felt pretty fresh when they came along a couple of years ago. And as much as I HATE the nu-metal stuff from a couple of years ago, the bands were original even if they were just mixing various styles... I don't follow metal like I used to do but evolution has NEVER been a problem there, it's probably the most trend-driven genre around...

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 08:41 PM

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57. "Green..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

This really has nothing to do with the post but I'll say it anyway. So I was reading Sound On Sound this month and there's an article about managers for producers. I'm going to quote from Zach Katz (Hi-Tek's manager):

"I wouldn't say is dead - it's just metamorphosed (his word not mine). Today you have to shop songs."

The article also says the following:

"There is so much more on the line financially that just playing an instrumental (aka 'beats') and getting a positive answer is almost never going to happen."

"If we're talking about the hip-hop genre, beats that come with the choruses or 'hooks' already recorded are usually a must."

Now this naturally has nothing to do with creativity at all, but it is relevant. I mean when the hook is more important than the music a boundary is set. Of course there are plenty of people who are working outside of those boundaries, but taking okp as a case study what percentage of okp producers are not trying to shop their beats. Even the ones that are trying to emulate the likes of dilla, would leave it all behind if 50 gave them a hot hook and said gimme 808's.

Still as the money starts running out I think the numbers will drop. Meaning those that were just in it for the opportunity, once the opportunity is gone will realize their day job ain't that bad.

The thing is that mediocrity is so easy now, and creativity don't get that well rewarded. Once mediocrity don't pay, those being creative will still be at it. But we're still a few years away from that and a lot can happen in those years. Still the potential is and always has been there, but I don't think its anywhere near being realized.

As for electronica I think its suffering from the same thing but on a different scale. Electronica has been boxed in by this notion that it is dance music. It's gotta break out of that to move forward.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Alphabet
Member since Jun 28th 2003
4402 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 09:16 PM

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60. "I agree with Katz about the hook thing, but for a different reason.."
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

I mean putting hooks on your beats, you are closer to PRODUCING than beatmaking..and if you an up and coming producer thats about as close as you gonna get to acually PRODUCING in today's times of internet, aim, personal FTP servers and email file transfers...Even the maticulous Dr. Dre has folded under the "just yousendit to me" way of life. (Jay siad thats how him and Dre did there songs for Kingdom Come)

I've seen it alot in my experiences and I'm still tryna scap thru the game, were 'known' rappers and emcee's with a proven track record may not 'get it' buy just hearing the beat...my ratio of beats sold with hooks or clear concept(like a sample in the beat that has a vocal) far out weigh the beats I've sold without hooks...

Im not saying Katz is wrong either though, cuz I know thats a element to it also finacaly, with record sales this year being in the toilet and poeple losng they industry jobs left and right...The last thing somebody wants to do is have they livelyhood in the hands of some unknown dude..

But there IS a creative reasoning behind that also..

By the way, you said thats in this months Sound to Sound article?..I gotta check that out..

#PicABeat Audio Photo series. Where the beat is inspired by the photo.
http://soundcloud.com/KingAkai

http://kingakai.com

“I love these bitches, man. I really do.â€
- Andre 3000

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39983 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 10:58 PM

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76. "RE: Green..."
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

>The article also says the following:
>
>"There is so much more on the line financially that just
>playing an instrumental (aka 'beats') and getting a positive
>answer is almost never going to happen."
>
>"If we're talking about the hip-hop genre, beats that come
>with the choruses or 'hooks' already recorded are usually a
>must."

OKPs can hate but that's why swizz is killing it right now. he's mastered this.


>Now this naturally has nothing to do with creativity at all,
>but it is relevant. I mean when the hook is more important
>than the music a boundary is set.

is it though? a lot of hooks today don't seem very catchy or memorable. i mean i don't listen to the radio or watch music TV much but i know some of the popular songs and the music seems to be the "it" factor, not so much the chorus. it's still important but i think people are listening for the beats (and i don't mean that in a music nerd, $100 headphones on listening to "the mixing and engineering" sort of way).


>The thing is that mediocrity is so easy now, and creativity
>don't get that well rewarded.

i think the current popular production is pretty creative, hence the topic...


>Once mediocrity don't pay,
>those being creative will still be at it.

i agree w/ the principle behind this though


>As for electronica I think its suffering from the same thing
>but on a different scale. Electronica has been boxed in by
>this notion that it is dance music. It's gotta break out of
>that to move forward.

it did and then it ran into a brick wall (see IDM), but i think it's reforming like the T-1000 terminator into something ironically more danceable (talk to GumDrops). something to listen for.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 11:09 PM

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81. "do you own any synths?"
In response to Reply # 76


  

          

i mean it really comes down to this. if you go through your average synth presets you'll find 80 percent of the sounds in today's popular music. none of these cats no jack about synthesis and lfo modulation. shit half of them don't know the pitch wheel changes the pitch. they flip through the presets, press a couple of keys. put it in a sequence and build a bunch of other presets around it. get an engineer to tweak so it sounds real clean (removing the bassline if the 808 is strong like that) and call it a masterpiece. it may be whats hot but its not innovation. (btw this was the point of my sexyback post).

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39983 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 11:17 PM

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85. "i did"
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

for 10 years i had a "loaner" late '80s yamaha synth but it was my uncle's and i gave it back last year. i just bought someone a keyboard as a gift to learn to play music (classical piano and just messing around). i want to buy myself a nice synth so i can get back into making music but i haven't decided on a model yet.


>i mean it really comes down to this. if you go through your
>average synth presets you'll find 80 percent of the sounds in
>today's popular music.

true. we know this, but most don't. it's just like graphic design. as a photoshop user i look at magazine ads for multimillion/billion dollar corporations and i can tell instantly what filters were used by the designer. it's a bit of a turnoff. but most don't have that background, so to them it might be very impressive. and then there are gifted artists in both music and graphic design who take "obvious" things their peers (even if they are amateur peers) know and still impress us with their technique.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 11:19 PM

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87. "Photoshopped Beats (c) howisya"
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Nate118
Member since Oct 31st 2005
2425 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 09:11 PM

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59. "SMH"
In response to Reply # 0


          

This has been an incredible year for music and almost all of the best albums have been rock.

  

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shockzilla
Charter member
37800 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 10:28 PM

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67. "pretty much."
In response to Reply # 59


          

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39983 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 10:35 PM

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69. "what are they?"
In response to Reply # 59
Tue Nov-28-06 10:39 PM by howisya

  

          

the deftones album is pretty incredible. tool's album was awesome but not really a step forward. i don't consider thom yorke's album rock at all. the 1/2 of the incubus album i heard sucked but i don't like them (or john mayer). believe it or not after all of these months i still haven't listened to the new tv on the radio or the mars volta, two bands i dig (i just haven't made time for these long-ass albums yet).

i'm not debating a lack of quality, just the idea that the music is moving forward. list these progressive, rock-advancing albums. most of the current rock people here praise is throwback or just mediocre to my ears.

if you only can come up with 2 or 3 albums, ask yourself are these bands leading or really symbolic of rock today, or are they outliers in the genre and the music as a whole is stagnant right now like i say.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 10:42 PM

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70. "TVotR and Blood Brothers had me going for a sec..."
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

but then i listened to that fucking Bloc Party leak and realized it'll be another five years before something else blows my mind in rock. I say this because TVotR can and should not be replicated by others, and Blood Brothers are good but are unique only in that fact.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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stylez dainty
Member since Nov 22nd 2004
6740 posts
Thu Dec-07-06 11:47 AM

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133. "Definitely an outlier, but check out that Grizzly Bear album"
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

Yellow House (on Warp, by the way, but so was Gravenhurst, so maybe that doesn't mean much)

I don't know that I'd say it rocks, but it has one of the most interestingly produced albums I've heard this year. It has this great noisy, soft, messy, clean sound. Good winter music, and while the music certainly isn't without precedent, it feels forward thinking.

----
I check for: Serengeti, Zeroh, Open Mike Eagle, Jeremiah Jae, Moka Only.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Tue Nov-28-06 09:23 PM

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61. "Another thought"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Is Endtroducing the only instrumental hiphop LP to break 100k sales. I'm not saying sales matter but...

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
Charter member
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Tue Nov-28-06 10:50 PM

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72. "and on that note.... WE NEED A NEW PRINCE PAUL ALBUM NOW!!!!!!!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

< Live Mixshow - Thurs 11PM/EST >
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disco dj
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Wed Nov-29-06 09:05 AM

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97. "say word. Prince Paul, The Automator and Nicolay are"
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

GREAT examples of Hip-Hop producers who aren't afraid to take risks.

______________



http://www.windimoto.com


http://ten2one.wordpress.com/ <-FEB

http://wallpapershi.net/wallpapers/2012/01/boba-fett-star-wars-star-wars-boba-fett-movie-anime-1080x1920.jpg

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Wed Nov-29-06 09:21 AM

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99. "agreed, now imagine if they were on the radio"
In response to Reply # 97


  

          

but i digress, it's still music being made and listened to and that's what i'm talking about with this topic. who are the automator and prince paul equivalents in rock and electronic music who DON'T blur the lines with hip-hop (see, you can't say dust brothers)? i think radiohead is one of the only rock bands advancing the genre but they hardly represent it. that's why it's in a lull and i can't stand the lame "retro" bands that come out every month and lessonheads fall for.

  

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mmmBop
Member since Mar 10th 2003
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Tue Nov-28-06 10:58 PM

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77. "So why has the album-making game suffered so much?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

We got albums full of filler and shitty RnB hooks, why?

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Tue Nov-28-06 11:11 PM

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82. "i find myself agreeing with fire"
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

the songwriting isn't really there. that's the downfall of the music being centered around beats, the songwriting loses. IMO it's up to the vocalists and MCs to take the lead, they have all of this hot, technologically advanced, hypercreative production, make magic with it. it's not easy but they did it in the '80s and '90s, it can be done again. there are great, cohesive albums being made now in mainstream hip-hop in 2006 but for the most part you actually have to look past the MCing. i don't want to discuss underground albums so much because that's niche audiences, it will appeal to some and few will ever hear it.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Tue Nov-28-06 11:15 PM

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84. "but the artists are give beats with hooks already written"
In response to Reply # 82


  

          

and not by songwriters by some producer trying to emulate whatever is already hot in the club.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Tue Nov-28-06 11:21 PM

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88. "and?"
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

i know, but it's up to the artists to put their foot down and come up with something better. i mean, be produced, but don't be afraid to speak up to producers and A&Rs. if you can't do that you're not really an artist (which would disqualify a lot of people in the industry but hey).

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Tue Nov-28-06 11:29 PM

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91. "LOL!!! Imagining an artist speaking up for themselves."
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

This thread is starting to depress me. Reply to my other shit.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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BSharp
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Wed Nov-29-06 02:24 AM

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93. "I don't consider hip hop production..."
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Nov-29-06 02:26 AM by BSharp

  

          

...any more or less progressive or stagnant as anything else.

In fact, I think hip hop production is rather stale.


-------------------------
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howisya
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Wed Nov-29-06 07:57 AM

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95. "care to back that opinion up with an argument"
In response to Reply # 93


  

          

or any details/specifics at all

  

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BSharp
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Wed Nov-29-06 10:19 PM

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115. "RE: care to back that opinion up with an argument"
In response to Reply # 95


  

          

...any music that's made with a sampler or a sequencer/based computer program could be considered hip hop production because of the methodology involved.

Is it really fair to consider Timbaland or Neptunes in a different world than Rodney Jerkins or Will.I.Am?

The producers that I consider to be truly progressive and fresh are more often than not not working within the boundaries of what most people consider hip hop.

There's a song called "Artifact" on DJ Shadow's new album that is just incredible to me, but if you played it for someone without telling them who it was, probably 5% would call it hip hop. After playing it for them and telling them who it was, probably 33% would consider it hip hop.

Play someone Madlib or Count Bass D, and the ratios might be a little bit higher if you tell them who made it, but the music wouldn't likely make people scream 'hip hop' in a blind taste test. Especially if they were told it was made by a white guy.

Play people would consider to be hip hop without question: Just Blaze, 9th Wonder, Swizz Beatz.

You really think that hip hop could be any more or less of a 'lull/holding pattern' than any other genre?

Most modern rock music makes me cringe at its lack of originality and ingenuity. I'd imagine that many people feel the same way when they listen to hip hop, and they're absolutely justified in feeling that way.

There are a lot of talented people making music, but hip hop is such a massive part of mainstream culture and such a dominant force in this generation that pretty much anything could be considered hip hop.

The suggestion that what is commonly considered 'hip hop production' is in any sort of golden age in terms of quality or creativity isn't really valid to me.

The production on the Clipse album is superior (to my ears), but it sounds like it could've been made 2 or even 5 years ago. If that's not a lull/holding pattern, then please offer me a more clear explanation of what is.

-------------------------
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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Wed Nov-29-06 10:31 PM

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116. "RE: care to back that opinion up with an argument"
In response to Reply # 115


  

          

>...any music that's made with a sampler or a sequencer/based
>computer program could be considered hip hop production
>because of the methodology involved.

and vice versa any hip-hop made with the same gear could be considered electronic music with vocals (usually)...


>Is it really fair to consider Timbaland or Neptunes in a
>different world than Rodney Jerkins or Will.I.Am?

well at least 3 of them produce hip-hop. i don't really consider rodney jerkins, period, but if i must, with the miscegenation between hip-hop and r&b for the last 15+ years i don't really see the music as different worlds, so in my mind i've been including more hip-hop-oriented branches of r&b in my argument without necessarily saying that up until now.


>There's a song called "Artifact" on DJ Shadow's new album that
>is just incredible to me, but if you played it for someone
>without telling them who it was, probably 5% would call it hip
>hop. After playing it for them and telling them who it was,
>probably 33% would consider it hip hop.

right but people are silly...


>You really think that hip hop could be any more or less of a
>'lull/holding pattern' than any other genre?

i don't get the connection. my topic's purely about the music, not the listeners or the public. shadow makes hip-hop and so do count bass d and madlib, and all 3 are great examples of musical advancement.


>Most modern rock music makes me cringe at its lack of
>originality and ingenuity. I'd imagine that many people feel
>the same way when they listen to hip hop, and they're
>absolutely justified in feeling that way.

but can people back up their opinion of hip-hop like i can with rock? most people i've talked to who complain about hip-hop beats are ignorant, close minded, or have very limited taste in music. again i don't want it to seem like i'm portraying hip-hop fans as the perfect audience; the average rap lover probably doesn't know much about rock, just like the average mainstream rock guy or girl probably can't tell you much about jazz. we're lucky to be here where people know a fair bit about multiple genres and can, when they choose, express their ideas on them in an intelligent and thoughtful manner. people have a right to think and like what they want but i think the people who listen to multiple types of music are more qualified to answer the question i'm posing in this poll/topic than the "average listener" of rock or hip-hop.


>The suggestion that what is commonly considered 'hip hop
>production' is in any sort of golden age in terms of quality
>or creativity isn't really valid to me.

i didn't say it was in a golden age; if you refer back to the original post and my replies i said you don't have to love or prefer the music of right now to the music of before--the question is do you think it's the only genre that is clearly still full of ideas and growing/advancing. do you really think rock is? i think that's the easiest one to rule out. the "shit" people love is almost 100% retro/throwback. the grayer area is electronic music (see previous exchanges in this discussion).


>The production on the Clipse album is superior (to my ears),
>but it sounds like it could've been made 2 or even 5 years
>ago.

some of it probably was! ha. but my point about the production of right now wasn't necessarily that it sounds futuristic or ultra-modern/current. i think where hip-hop is exceeding rock is that it's taking past influences and actually building and (dare i say it) in some cases improving upon them, not just tirelessly rehashing them. so it's not a lull or holding pattern at all.

  

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BSharp
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117. "RE: care to back that opinion up with an argument"
In response to Reply # 116


  

          

All I know is that the stuff I think is advancing hip hop, people don't think that it is, in fact, hip hop.

It's as simple as that.

And I'm not even talking about ignorant fans. I'm talking about the people in the front row. AND the people backstage.

Hip hop is a few dozen rappers (including a few legends) rallying to The Game to do a remix, even though the beat is horrid, and the rapper whose track it is can't even rap. There's no integrity at all in hip hop, it's all business and money and promotion and publicity and exposure.

-------------------------
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Live each Sunday, 2-4 EST at Eastvillageradio.com

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Nov-30-06 01:07 PM

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124. "RE: care to back that opinion up with an argument"
In response to Reply # 117


  

          

while i respect your taste and, in some cases, allegiances, for me a lot of the production that is universally considered hip-hop IS advancing the artform. i came up with a list of a dozen or two hip-hop producers on paper in case i was pressed for examples but it's fair to say that it's everyone from the "left" (in terms of experimentalism, both backpacker-friendly and not) to the "right" (in terms of sticking to traditional, "conservative," tried-and-true sounds and methods) who is just impressing and inspiring the hell out of me this year. i can't say that for the other genres i mentioned in this poll. the new (2006) rock that inspires me is only on the "left" and few and far between, and i haven't been inspired by anything new in electronic music for a good while because to me it's stagnant.

  

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BSharp
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Thu Nov-30-06 12:58 AM

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118. "and another thing..."
In response to Reply # 116


  

          

>>Is it really fair to consider Timbaland or Neptunes in a
>>different world than Rodney Jerkins or Will.I.Am?
>
>well at least 3 of them produce hip-hop. i don't really
>consider rodney jerkins, period, but if i must, with the
>miscegenation between hip-hop and r&b for the last 15+ years i
>don't really see the music as different worlds, so in my mind
>i've been including more hip-hop-oriented branches of r&b in
>my argument without necessarily saying that up until now.

To suggest that Rodney Jerkins is doing anything different than the other producers named is nothing more or less than semantics. It's the same shit, period. End of story.

-------------------------
Fat Beats Radio on EVR
with Bill Sharp, Monster, & MOONBOOTS
Live each Sunday, 2-4 EST at Eastvillageradio.com

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mmmBop
Member since Mar 10th 2003
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Thu Nov-30-06 12:59 AM

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119. "I see your point, but those instances of "building" are very rare"
In response to Reply # 116


          

In every genre your gonna have 2-5 instances where the music is actually progressive and builds upon past trends, but the majority of it is still garbage to alot of people, just like most other genres. Sure there might be a single here and there that has great production, but those instances are even pretty rare these days, and as soon as it's done there are 50,000 wannabe joints that sound just like it.

  

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BSharp
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Thu Nov-30-06 01:11 AM

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120. "What people should be paying attention to..."
In response to Reply # 119


  

          

...is not production, but songwriting.

Not only did Cee-Lo elevate the Pussycat Dolls' talentless schtick to millions of dollars in revenue, he also elevated Danger Mouse's pedestrian production to a phenomenon.

It's all mathematics.

-------------------------
Fat Beats Radio on EVR
with Bill Sharp, Monster, & MOONBOOTS
Live each Sunday, 2-4 EST at Eastvillageradio.com

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IkeMoses
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Wed Nov-29-06 08:05 AM

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96. "it ain't in a lull, but i can't say that it's the only genre not stagnan..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


-30-

a square from the block.

http://www.myspace.com/ikemoses

  

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GumDrops
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Wed Nov-29-06 09:52 AM

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107. "hip hop seems to be a lot fresher to 'outsiders' from what i read"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

it seems a lot of people who havent been into it as long as people who were into it pre-96 still think the genre is doing amazing things. i think theyre comparing it to other genres they were into before though, or comparing it to current pop/rock music, rather than older hip-hop and previous standards.

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Wed Nov-29-06 09:57 AM

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108. "sort of getting away from the point but you got me"
In response to Reply # 107


  

          

the idea behind the post wasn't to compare hip-hop now to hip-hop "then" in terms of likability (you can hate what's being made now and still hear it as alive and changing).

but i got into hip-hop around 1995, rock in maybe '92, electronic in about '96. like i said in my "ethering" of that imagineyenation guy in the rjd2 thread, i DO consider myself an outsider and primarily because i've always listened to these 3 types of music pretty evenly. i'll never describe myself as a head. so because i have the frame of reference of these other musics, and because i didn't have any older siblings putting me onto classic, golden age hip-hop and i had to discover it all for myself, maybe i do come to different conclusions than the average OKP and you have a very valid albeit highly specific point.

  

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L.E.S.
Member since Oct 18th 2006
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Wed Nov-29-06 10:24 AM

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111. "RE: Hip-hop beats/production: the only musical genre not in a lull/holdi..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

yeah, but barely.

  

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Grand_Styles
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Thu Nov-30-06 01:25 AM

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121. "I Voted "I Dizagree" Cauze I Do"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

If you got a problem wit dat den dat'z your problem cauze I see all formz of muzik goin' in nu dyrectionz but some are goin' slower than othaz.

Peace & Pizza Greaze!

Anotha Keyztylebonic Vizion Prezentation!

http://myspace.com/GrandStyleDecypher
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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Dec-07-06 10:27 AM

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125. "RE: Hip-hop beats/production: the only musical genre not in a lull/holdi..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Thu Dec-07-06 11:14 AM

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128. "you peep that sampler yet..."
In response to Reply # 125


  

          

interested how you feel it fits in with this...

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Dec-07-06 11:18 AM

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129. "haven't yet but i will."
In response to Reply # 128


  

          

it's going to be a while, i won't be using the computer at home much from now until 3rd week of december.

did you cave and listen to 'confield'? it's not a good place at all to start with autechre but if you're just listening for what can be done with technology then you might as well go for it.

  

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imcvspl
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Thu Dec-07-06 11:33 AM

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131. "i'm holding out...but its hard."
In response to Reply # 129


  

          

incidently though i'm definitely listening for the technology, i think i'm more listening for the use of technology in a musical sense. i think what you're hinting at is that in their later releases they focused more on the technical than the musical. which i think is the natural process for technological innovation. an example would be the evolution of radiohead. though i like kid a i think a lot of the album flow got lost in their technological experimentation. by amnesia they had improved, and the last joint was their staking a claim to the new sound. i imagine autechre is like this though they may not have gotten to the end point yet, which is why i'm holding out. i've been hesitent to order online but may end up going that route.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39983 posts
Thu Dec-07-06 11:44 AM

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132. "RE: i'm holding out...but its hard."
In response to Reply # 131


  

          

>incidently though i'm definitely listening for the
>technology, i think i'm more listening for the use of
>technology in a musical sense. i think what you're hinting at
>is that in their later releases they focused more on the
>technical than the musical. which i think is the natural
>process for technological innovation.

natural maybe but it doesn't make for good music (so as a musician, be warned of the perils?). 'confield' was their last release that had a perfect balance of composition and production. the followup was a weaker 'confield' compositionally, and productionwise was not enough of an evolution to make up for it. their latest is more advanced in production but almost unlistenable musically (IMO, but then i only listened to it twice and have been meaning to listen again). a lot of it is just hyper kinetic, abrasive beats that go nowhere.

i started listening to autechre when technology was less advanced than it is now so i never developed a technology fetish with them. i listened to them starting in about 1998 and my reason was simple: it was amazing music. the melodies, the rhythm patterns, the production, everything was phenomenal, from what they were releasing at the time all the way back to their first release years before. i think you're truly missing out if you're listening "past" the music in order to hear the technology, and run the risk of being influenced to make digital music that is technologically up to date but compositionally empty like p*te m*rriot, but whatever, at least you're listening at all. still, autechre have got soul.


>an example would be the
>evolution of radiohead.

who, throughout their embrace of technology, still write better songs than anyone else in rock or pop.


>though i like kid a i think a lot of
>the album flow got lost in their technological
>experimentation.

i disagree but i understand how one might think that.


>by amnesia they had improved

i thought that album was inferior, but it wasn't an improvement or drop because those were all from the same studio sessions as 'kid a'.


>and the last
>joint was their staking a claim to the new sound.

i think HTTT is so underrated.


>i imagine
>autechre is like this though they may not have gotten to the
>end point yet, which is why i'm holding out. i've been
>hesitent to order online but may end up going that route.

save money and get the ones you actually want delivered to your door, what's not to like?

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Thu Dec-07-06 12:13 PM

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134. "rereading what i wrote..."
In response to Reply # 132


  

          

somethings were less than clear.

amnesia was better sequenced than kid a IMO. and i'm not the biggest fan of HTTT but for me it's like The Bends before Ok Computer. Can't wait to hear what they do next.

regarding the evolution i was trying to say that when an artist embraces a technological advance, there is a period of regression before they return to form.

and i'm always listening for the music. always. really complicated technology based noise is still noise.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Wordup
Member since Mar 03rd 2006
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Thu Dec-07-06 11:08 AM

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126. "Pharrel, Dr. Dre, Pete Rock, Kanye West . . . have all been slipping"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

If we talking about just hiphop then I disagree. Its not like 3 years ago . . . hiphop beats have been slippin.

But if we talking about eletronica/downtempo/lo-fi . . . then yeah that stuff is fly.

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Dec-07-06 11:24 AM

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130. "RE: Pharrel, Dr. Dre, Pete Rock, Kanye West . . . have all been slipping"
In response to Reply # 126


  

          

Pharrell - product of not making the beats w/ chad anymore, but some people might argue that he's still excelling on albums like HHNF or even IMM ("baby" was one of the most inspirational pieces of music i heard all year)

Dr. Dre - product of aging, but i don't see how one well drying up affects my theory about genres as wholes

Pete Rock - relic, already covered that, but who knows what his next album will hold.

Kanye West - not in a lull/holding pattern AT ALL. if he was still doing "chipmunk soul" on every song then sure, but he has shown a bevy of styles in the last few years and keeps things exciting, interesting, and different


>If we talking about just hiphop then I disagree. Its not like
>3 years ago . . . hiphop beats have been slippin.

in quality/how much you like it? or in terms of changing? you have to think objectively, that's what this topic is about, not personal taste.


>But if we talking about eletronica/downtempo/lo-fi . . . then
>yeah that stuff is fly.

ok it's fly but are you familiar enough with it to judge whether it's stagnant or not? to me there hasn't been much development or progress in it in a while now, hence the topic.

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Mon Dec-18-06 09:18 AM

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135. "^^"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

upping this just as a contrast with Wordup's post

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Tue Jan-02-07 09:33 AM

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136. "why not."
In response to Reply # 135


  

          


  

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sweetL
Member since Nov 29th 2006
129 posts
Thu Jan-04-07 06:34 AM

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137. "RE: Hip-hop beats/production: the only musical genre not in a lull/holdi..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

i disagree VERY strongly. electronic music has sectors advancing very quickly, and jazz music continues to work in a similar direction... these sectors of electronic music are wayyyyy more musically advanced than hiphop, to the point where its embracing seperate cultures (even rap cultures) from the norm - and making its own sub genres... dubstep and broken beat are the first examples that pop into mind.

there is far too much good music out there to make that statement, even with rock being pushed way past its generally accepted bracket... into ska and stuff... 'the good the bad and the queen' is the first example that pops into mind.

commercial hiphop is in regression.

other than that - hiphop is alive and well and still vibing its way through on the low... but imo, has lost some of what made it great.... some seem to be insistent on taking it .... way past where it needs to be. its trying to be too advanced (and this is from someone who plain loves to be challenged)... and its not coming off, imo.

if you dont believe that other music is advancing - check out joanna newsom's latest.

---------------------
some... kinda?

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Jan-04-07 08:48 AM

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149. "RE: Hip-hop beats/production: the only musical genre not in a lull/holdi..."
In response to Reply # 137


  

          

>i disagree VERY strongly. electronic music has sectors
>advancing very quickly

you neglected to name them, let alone give evidence of their advancement.


>and jazz music continues to work in a
>similar direction...

are you fucking serious? i know the UK has a good jazz scene, but advancement?


>these sectors of electronic music are
>wayyyyy more musically advanced than hiphop

clearly, but they stopped advancing (arguably).


>to the point
>where its embracing seperate cultures (even rap cultures) from
>the norm - and making its own sub genres... dubstep and broken
>beat are the first examples that pop into mind.

dubstep is the only new sect that's come up in this thread, and another, that is arguably alive and evolving. broken beat i'm not so sure, but i know it's not new, not at all, it's just getting more and more popular each year w/o cracking the mainstream.


>there is far too much good music out there to make that
>statement, even with rock being pushed way past its generally
>accepted bracket... into ska and stuff... 'the good the bad
>and the queen' is the first example that pops into mind.

i posted about that EP yesterday. i enjoyed it, but it's not that different from gorillaz 2000-2002. then again i think the gorillaz are probably the best, most interesting, and exciting thing in mainstream "rock," but with hip-hop producers heavily involved in both albums you almost can't give their success to rock exclusively.


>commercial hiphop is in regression.

for the last time this topic is not meant to address the emceeing aspect.


>other than that - hiphop is alive and well and still vibing
>its way through on the low...

in the last couple years, overground > underground, IMO.


>some seem to be insistent on taking it .... way past where it needs to be.

i like that though.


>its trying to be too advanced
>(and this is from someone who plain loves to be challenged)...
>and its not coming off, imo.

elaborate, i'm interested. provide examples if possible.


>if you dont believe that other music is advancing - check out
>joanna newsom's latest.

ugh that fucking voice? i don't know if i can take more than one song from her.

  

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sweetL
Member since Nov 29th 2006
129 posts
Thu Jan-04-07 11:35 AM

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172. "RE: Hip-hop beats/production: the only musical genre not in a lull/holdi..."
In response to Reply # 149


          

>you neglected to name them, let alone give evidence of their
>advancement.

i didnt say it was new - but that it was moving ahead. bugz in the attic. 4hero 'play with the changes'. kaidi last offering. inverse cinematics album when it drops will no doubt be huge. broken beat has taken over everything that basement jaxx do, clearly.

MARK DE CLIVE LOWE!!!!! the freesoul sessions - come on... there aint noone doing that.

new sector movements...


>are you fucking serious? i know the UK has a good jazz scene,
>but advancement?

i didnt say uk.... hajime yoshizawa, koop, notalgia 77, atjazz.


>dubstep is the only new sect that's come up in this thread,
>and another, that is arguably alive and evolving. broken beat
>i'm not so sure, but i know it's not new, not at all, it's
>just getting more and more popular each year w/o cracking the
>mainstream.

skream alone can bear this torch. hes a good representative for that scene.



>i posted about that EP yesterday. i enjoyed it, but it's not
>that different from gorillaz 2000-2002. then again i think the
>gorillaz are probably the best, most interesting, and exciting
>thing in mainstream "rock," but with hip-hop producers heavily
>involved in both albums you almost can't give their success to
>rock exclusively.

ok - my perception of what iv heard from them - the thought put into the music is far and beyond what gorillaz was - tho it was great.


>>commercial hiphop is in regression.
>
>for the last time this topic is not meant to address the
>emceeing aspect.

im didnt suggest i was addressing the mc'ing aspect. im saying that commercial hiphop - for the most part - is ... well... poor. i think 2007 will be a good year however.


>>other than that - hiphop is alive and well and still vibing
>>its way through on the low...
>
>in the last couple years, overground > underground, IMO.

fair point, but the past 2 have been good for under. little bro, jneiro, strange fruit.


>>some seem to be insistent on taking it .... way past where it
>needs to be. its trying to be too advanced (and this is from someone who plain loves to be challenged)... and its not coming off, imo.
>
>elaborate, i'm interested. provide examples if possible.

this is probably the wrong place to say this... madlib? sorry, it just dont hit me. dangermouse? same deal. the only one i could see ADVANCING the art and getting away with it.. was dilla.


>>if you dont believe that other music is advancing - check
>out
>>joanna newsom's latest.
>
>ugh that fucking voice? i don't know if i can take more than
>one song from her.

ok - so you dont like it - fair enough, but thats schools ahead, from a purely forward moving point of view.


---------------------
some... kinda?

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Jan-04-07 11:50 AM

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176. "RE: Hip-hop beats/production: the only musical genre not in a lull/holdi..."
In response to Reply # 172


  

          

>i didnt say it was new - but that it was moving ahead. bugz in
>the attic. 4hero 'play with the changes'. kaidi last
>offering. inverse cinematics album when it drops will no
>doubt be huge. broken beat has taken over everything that
>basement jaxx do, clearly.

basement jaxx, maybe. 4 hero i haven't heard the new album but the tracks from it that gilles played on his show last year were nice although they didn't seem particularly progressive.

i think broken beat is probably one of the few evolving branches of electronic music, which i still think is overall stagnant.


>MARK DE CLIVE LOWE!!!!! the freesoul sessions - come on...
>there aint noone doing that.
>
>new sector movements...

i really need to hear more from all of these people above and below:

>i didnt say uk.... hajime yoshizawa, koop, notalgia 77,
>atjazz.



>ok - my perception of what iv heard from them - the thought
>put into the music is far and beyond what gorillaz was - tho
>it was great.

well i look forward to hearing it. i downloaded the live performance but i'd rather wait for the studio album before listening.


>im didnt suggest i was addressing the mc'ing aspect. im saying
>that commercial hiphop - for the most part - is ... well...
>poor. i think 2007 will be a good year however.

i guess we'll see. i dunno, i thought hip-hop beats were way better than hip-hop emceeing last year. like, on a musical level, i thought the game's album was borderline incredible. not ultra-futuristic but its west coastisms seemed updated and not boring or regressive. i also thought nas' album had a really nice mix of styles of music, most productions pulled off exceedingly well, and some of it particularly fresh sounding (kanye is quietly on a hot streak IMO).


>fair point, but the past 2 have been good for under. little
>bro, jneiro, strange fruit.

i like little brother but i can't really get into them too much. SFP even less so. the jneiro stuff i heard was more electronic to me.


>>elaborate, i'm interested. provide examples if possible.
>
>this is probably the wrong place to say this... madlib? sorry,
>it just dont hit me. dangermouse? same deal. the only one i
>could see ADVANCING the art and getting away with it.. was
>dilla.

cool. yeah you might be right about that. i'm a fan of madlib, to a smaller extent danger mouse as well, and think both are extremely talented. i like where they take their hip-hop but it's not quite as successful, cohesive, and believable as what dilla did, with the exception of the 2nd quasimoto album. i thought that was thrilling.


>>>if you dont believe that other music is advancing - check
>>out
>>>joanna newsom's latest.
>>
>>ugh that fucking voice? i don't know if i can take more than
>>one song from her.
>
>ok - so you dont like it - fair enough, but thats schools
>ahead, from a purely forward moving point of view.

i don't think so, it's just so different from what's popular right now in either the mainstream OR underground/indie scene that it's a breath of fresh air for those who like it. avant garde artists have been making similar music for a long time, and even some of kate bush's stuff was along the lines of what i heard from JN, it's just that she has some buzz right now.

  

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sweetL
Member since Nov 29th 2006
129 posts
Thu Jan-04-07 12:02 PM

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178. "RE: Hip-hop beats/production: the only musical genre not in a lull/holdi..."
In response to Reply # 176


          

>basement jaxx, maybe. 4 hero i haven't heard the new album but
>the tracks from it that gilles played on his show last year
>were nice although they didn't seem particularly progressive.

honestly? the new album i hear odd tracks - and have to stop the album - it gets me TOO much.

>>MARK DE CLIVE LOWE!!!!! the freesoul sessions - come on...
>>there aint noone doing that.
>>
>>new sector movements...
>
>i really need to hear more from all of these people above and
>below:
>
>>i didnt say uk.... hajime yoshizawa, koop, notalgia 77,
>>atjazz.

go and get mark de clive lowes 'tides arising'... its amazing.


>i guess we'll see. i dunno, i thought hip-hop beats were way
>better than hip-hop emceeing last year. like, on a musical
>level, i thought the game's album was borderline incredible.
>not ultra-futuristic but its west coastisms seemed updated and
>not boring or regressive. i also thought nas' album had a
>really nice mix of styles of music, most productions pulled
>off exceedingly well, and some of it particularly fresh
>sounding (kanye is quietly on a hot streak IMO).

ok - little bit back tracking.... games album sounds sonically amazing.... 'california vacation' and some of the tracks on kingdom come sound amazing... so far.. I havent been pulled into hip hop is dead.


>the jneiro stuff i heard was more
>electronic to me.
that might be a fair thing to say, but three piece puzzle was a work of art.


>>ok - so you dont like it - fair enough, but thats schools
>>ahead, from a purely forward moving point of view.
>
>i don't think so, it's just so different from what's popular
>right now in either the mainstream OR underground/indie scene
>that it's a breath of fresh air for those who like it. avant
>garde artists have been making similar music for a long time,
>and even some of kate bush's stuff was along the lines of what
>i heard from JN, it's just that she has some buzz right now.

see - i heard the book of right on from milk eyed mender in 04.. and man, that blew my mind... it was leagues above anything i heard that year... the very fact that shes playing what shes singing along with, made it all the more impacting.

she does have a kate bush quality, you're right.

ooo... folky / bloke with a guitar type music - ray lamontagne.. i rate highly.
---------------------
some... kinda?

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Jan-04-07 12:11 PM

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180. "RE: Hip-hop beats/production: the only musical genre not in a lull/holdi..."
In response to Reply # 178


  

          

>honestly? the new album i hear odd tracks - and have to stop
>the album - it gets me TOO much.

what do you give it on a scale of 5? sorry to trivialize the music with a numerical rating, but if it's honestly better than a 4 to you i will buy the U.S. domestic album when it's released w/o even hearing any more from it. i trust you. i was interested in it anyway.


>go and get mark de clive lowes 'tides arising'... its
>amazing.

i heard about that before...


>ok - little bit back tracking.... games album sounds sonically
>amazing.... 'california vacation' and some of the tracks on
>kingdom come sound amazing... so far.. I havent been pulled
>into hip hop is dead.

for the most part HHID is a subdued album so it has to work your way into its brain. it's not really immediate, but it's excellent. the emceeing complements the music, too (i don't agree w/ whoever in the other thread said nas is lazy on it).


>ooo... folky / bloke with a guitar type music - ray
>lamontagne.. i rate highly.

what about adrian crowley, heard of him?

  

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BSharp
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Sun Jan-07-07 11:57 AM

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191. "4Hero"
In response to Reply # 180


  

          

5

-------------------------
Fat Beats Radio on EVR
Live each Sunday, 2-4 EST at Eastvillageradio.com
http://www.eastvillageradio.com/modules.php?name=evrshow&showid=6

Black Milk
Popular Demand: 3.13.07
Broken Wax: Vinyl and CD at http://www.fatbeats.com

  

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BSharp
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Sun Jan-07-07 11:56 AM

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190. "Got me puzzled..."
In response to Reply # 176


  

          

>>the jneiro stuff i heard was more
>electronic to me.

You make the argument that Grime is hip hop (which I agree with), then suggest that Jneiro's music is 'more electronic.' You know how much I hate over-genrefication, but that is just completely contradictory.

-------------------------
Fat Beats Radio on EVR
Live each Sunday, 2-4 EST at Eastvillageradio.com
http://www.eastvillageradio.com/modules.php?name=evrshow&showid=6

Black Milk
Popular Demand: 3.13.07
Broken Wax: Vinyl and CD at http://www.fatbeats.com

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39983 posts
Sun Jan-07-07 12:34 PM

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194. "you glossed over the key element of what i said:"
In response to Reply # 190


  

          

"i heard"

unless i disliked something or found it boring enough to delete it (possible) here is all that i've heard from him:

B-Boy Portrait In Spain
Big Bounce Theory
Black Cinderella
Do Yo Thang

i could see how his music could be described either way. and after listening to them again they're more hip-hop than electronic but still both (to me). i forgot how dope these were btw.

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Jan-04-07 08:35 AM

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145. "one thing i'd like to see"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

is the addition of more exotic instrumentation. not all of the time, but just occasionally would be good. for example, it was dope how automator and, to a lesser extent, dj spinna brought back the melodica in their beats.

but what if all of the tracks using the pitch shift and modulation wheels on synthesizers used theremins? i feel like if a theremin were on "black republican" it would've taken the song over the top and been its 3rd star, seriously. even a ring-modulated synth would sound dope on hip-hop, west coast tracks in particula, e.g. the ondes-martenot. neither of these instruments are easy to learn but with as much dough as hip-hop is rolling in, the producers and MCs can afford a session musician to play these things. and they might as well, because even without these instruments (and other exotic ones) hip-hop production is still way more interesting and exciting than rock, and most electronic "producers" can't afford these instruments unfortunately.

http://www.obsolete.com/120_years/machines/martenot/index.html
http://www.obsolete.com/120_years/machines/theremin/index.html

  

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disco dj
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Thu Jan-04-07 09:23 AM

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150. "they don't know how to RECORD them either.."
In response to Reply # 145


  

          

I've had this dicussion with MANY beatmakers/producers/heads about how proper Mastering & recording techniques can make or break your project.

People NEVER use live instruments because the average beatmaker in 2007 has no idea how to properly mike a drum kit or set up the acoustics in the room to give handheld instruments the proper 'warm' sound.

a friend of mine uses a few handheld instruments in his work ( kalimba, shekere, and a few percussion instruments here and there), and for the most part it sounds just like the presets in a drum machine becuase he didn't record them with that 'warmth'...

______________



http://www.windimoto.com


http://ten2one.wordpress.com/ <-FEB

http://wallpapershi.net/wallpapers/2012/01/boba-fett-star-wars-star-wars-boba-fett-movie-anime-1080x1920.jpg

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Jan-04-07 09:39 AM

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151. "well hire people who do"
In response to Reply # 150


  

          

just like hip-hop can afford to pay theremin and ring-modulator synth players, they can afford engineers who know how to record them and other live instrument(alist)s.

i see what you're saying and i agree, i think despite the creativity with sampling and some machines and software, hip-hop producers are probably the most inexperienced and boneheaded in all of music. still, that can change, if they want it to.

  

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disco dj
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Thu Jan-04-07 11:10 AM

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169. "bedroom production wiped that whole frame of mind out though..."
In response to Reply # 151


  

          

the DIY ethos that came out of bedroom production was built on the premise that you can 'avoid' paying people to do shit. Thus a 17 year-old cat that bought an MPC and bangs out heat on a consistent basis doesn't *know* about mastering and recording live instruments. he's never really seen it within the realm of what he does.

it's like telling somebody to send a telegram. they'd have NO idea what to do. because nobody does it anymore. and the people who DO do it are dinosaurs. few and far between...

Cats are used to burning their tracks to CD and pressing them up as the finished product.




______________



http://www.windimoto.com


http://ten2one.wordpress.com/ <-FEB

http://wallpapershi.net/wallpapers/2012/01/boba-fett-star-wars-star-wars-boba-fett-movie-anime-1080x1920.jpg

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Jan-04-07 11:33 AM

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171. "like i said though"
In response to Reply # 169


  

          

just a little bit of the instrumentation thing i talked about would be good.... not mandatory, not everyone.. because it's great how cats can make hot tracks with no traditional musical background or even knowledge.. just an MPC or whatever. some of the best beats have been made like that. but it's also good the other way, with the extra musical dimension, for those up to the challenge... a challenge that should be encouraged more within hip-hop and appreciated/embraced more by the listeners.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Thu Jan-04-07 11:53 AM

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177. "*aaaachew*"
In response to Reply # 171


  

          

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Thu Jan-04-07 10:17 AM

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157. "*cough*"
In response to Reply # 150


  

          

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
16105 posts
Thu Jan-04-07 09:56 AM

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152. "nah, i disagree"
In response to Reply # 0


          

the whole Benji B/modern hip-hop fusion/house/soul set kinda shits all over hiphop, for the most part. Bugz in the Attic, Kaidi Tatham, 4 Hero (more on remixes, tho'), Masters at work, DJ Spinna, even Jazzanova, lately, (whose album bored the shit outta me, aside from like 3 tracks) have been doin some pretty fresh shit.

Hiphop is still solid, but then i don't listen to most mainstream stuff. In fact, i find most mainstream shit to be very conservative, and a good chunk of it just redoes what the last hit did.

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Jan-04-07 10:05 AM

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153. "RE: nah, i disagree"
In response to Reply # 152


  

          

>the whole Benji B/*modern hip-hop* fusion/house/soul set kinda
>shits all over *hiphop*

*ahem*


, for the most part. Bugz in the Attic,
>Kaidi Tatham, 4 Hero (more on remixes, tho'), Masters at work,
>DJ Spinna, even Jazzanova, lately, (whose album bored the shit
>outta me, aside from like 3 tracks) have been doin some pretty
>fresh shit.

ok, now these guys may be hip-hop-inspired but i'm not sure how that's "modern hip-hop fusion"


>Hiphop is still solid, but then i don't listen to most
>mainstream stuff. In fact, i find most mainstream shit to be
>very conservative, and a good chunk of it just redoes what the
>last hit did.

fair criticism but still that's more of a taste thing. you could hate the sound of it but still recognize that at least hip-hop is developing at a steady pace compared to other genres. it hasn't stopped. plus it's hard to argue against crunk being musically exciting on a certain objective level. you can hate "the noise" but still recognize the bottom heavy percussion and bass lines and soaring synths are on a technical level immediate and aggressive.

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Thu Jan-04-07 11:21 AM

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170. "i got no beef with crunk"
In response to Reply # 153


          

the funny thing is, it's heavily influenced by house and classic techno. It's like a lot of the things that are innovative in mainstream hiphop come from the producers listening to more shit than hiphop.

Listen to dre 3000's production style - that shit got bjork all 'cross it. Timbaland? a lot of house styles and sounds. And they ain't really bitin, either. They just influenced by people that THEY influenced.

And yeah, almost all modern music is heavily heavily influenced by hiphop.

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Jan-04-07 11:37 AM

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173. "RE: i got no beef with crunk"
In response to Reply # 170


  

          

>the funny thing is, it's heavily influenced by house and
>classic techno.

yup but more indirectly by most of the producers though because they're using the same presets on the synths and drum machines.


>It's like a lot of the things that are
>innovative in mainstream hiphop come from the producers
>listening to more shit than hiphop.

agreed:
http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=1003735&mesg_id=1003735&listing_type=search#1052328


>Listen to dre 3000's production style - that shit got bjork
>all 'cross it.

yup! i've raved about 3000's production on OKP before. he's one of the most interesting producers in hip-hop, now and arguably ever.

neptunes are heavily bjork influenced, too... in fact they've lifted specific elements from bjork tracks at least twice.


>Timbaland? a lot of house styles and sounds.

right... dat teef!


>And they ain't really bitin, either. They just influenced by
>people that THEY influenced.

right, funny how it works out sometimes.


>And yeah, almost all modern music is heavily heavily
>influenced by hiphop.

^^thanks for validating my poll!

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Thu Jan-04-07 12:07 PM

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179. "lil' jon used to be a house dj here"
In response to Reply # 173


          

the influence is quite direct. He got turned on to the nord lead sound by some str8 up house and techno 12 inches

>>the funny thing is, it's heavily influenced by house and
>>classic techno.
>
>yup but more indirectly by most of the producers though
>because they're using the same presets on the synths and drum
>machines.


And yeah, this actually turned out to be a pretty decent discussion overall

No Jay/Nas lost moments anywhere, lol

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Jan-04-07 12:12 PM

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181. "in his case, yes.."
In response to Reply # 179


  

          

>the influence is quite direct. He got turned on to the nord
>lead sound by some str8 up house and techno 12 inches

cool, i knew he was a DJ but i didn't know that specifically.

  

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sweetL
Member since Nov 29th 2006
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Thu Jan-04-07 12:15 PM

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182. "RE: nah, i disagree"
In response to Reply # 152


          

>4 Hero (more on remixes, tho')

are you SERIOUS?????

4hero havent put out an album thats been anything but amazing.

we're talking about pioneers of hardcore, who helped kick off jungle when hardcore was getting stale - who helped kick off drum and bass when jungle was getting too popular, who then just turned their heels and helped kick off new jazz and broken beat.... these guys are unstoppable.

parallel universe precursored every great dnb/ jungle album you think came first.
two pages was epic.
creating patterns was mind blowing...

and play with the changes sounds so great... i cant even describe.

the whole time - marc macs own projects have been solid.

the best track - in my opinion - on goldies 'timeless' album, was co-produced with dego mcfarlane... i mean come on - thats no mistake....

---------------------
some... kinda?

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Sat Jan-06-07 03:07 PM

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185. "dude, i'm with you on the quality of 4 hero's work"
In response to Reply # 182


          

both them dudes are production BEASTS. However, the 4 hero ALBUMS don't take as many chances as they do when remixing other people's shit, which is kinda odd

  

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BSharp
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193. "Can you give examples?"
In response to Reply # 185


  

          

...because I don't agree.

-------------------------
Fat Beats Radio on EVR
Live each Sunday, 2-4 EST at Eastvillageradio.com
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Black Milk
Popular Demand: 3.13.07
Broken Wax: Vinyl and CD at http://www.fatbeats.com

  

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lonesome_d
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Thu Jan-04-07 10:06 AM

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154. "I'd venture to suggest that Americana is doing aight now"
In response to Reply # 0


          

though it isn't as healthy as it was 10-12 years ago either.

A few years back it looked like it was going to go completely stagnant (in fact, I was considering making an 'RIP Americana thread for a while) as the primary critical darlings - Son Volt, Wilco, Ryan Admas - either got mired in the their sound, or left the genre for pop/'experimentation.' And Killbilly broke up and moved onto lame-o bands like the Old 97s.

But starting with Nickel Creek's explosion onto the scene, there's been a bit of a refocusing/revitalization. Bands like the Avett Bros. are pushing the acoustic/songwriter aspect, Yonder Mtn. and sometimes donna the Buffalo push the improv/jam aspect, and a bunch of bands that dabble in it in a folk-rock setting are on the festival circuit. Nickel Creek of course have been putting together the instrumental wizardry of newgrass with a stronger emphasis on traditional material and an almost boy-girl group pop sensibility and impeccable taste. If thhat makes sense.

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Jan-04-07 10:20 AM

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159. "interesting"
In response to Reply # 154


  

          

i'm glad to hear this. as someone who listens to and is aware of very little americana, i would've thought that, as a genre seemingly overtly tied to musical and cultural tradition(s) and with a simple or at least straight-forward musical aesthetic (am i wrong?), this would be one of the most backwards-looking and static genres of them all. rock, a type of music that has proven, from my limited perspective on and understanding of americana, to be more musically varied and usually more "contemporary"/current, is inexplicably in the greatest/worst holding pattern of all IMO.

  

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lonesome_d
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Thu Jan-04-07 10:42 AM

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162. "The problem with roots musics in general though"
In response to Reply # 159


          

is that they seem to go through ccycles

like in 1970, the first folk-rock wave was reaching its peak here with the aftermath of the Byrds, and in the UK with Fairport Convention and Steeleye Span. These were bands doing really new things with genuinely old sounds.

Newgrass started big in the mid/late '70s but was kind of an isolated movement; most other roots musics were sucking by then. Jazz didn't make its way into Celtic stuff until ca. 1990.

Then nothing pretty much happened until about 1985, when bands like Meat Puppets, Boiled ini Lead, Pogues, Waterboys and later on the Levellers and Uncle Tupelo started mixing trad sounds with punk rock. To be fair, the 'progress' Americana has been making since then owes just about all to the stuff mentioned above.

Then nothing pretty much new happened until the mid-90s when the first electronic/roots fusions were starting up (not counting Clannad's synth-crap). Mouth Music, Martyn Bennett, Ashley MacIsaac's medium size hit with 'Sleepy Maggie,' Shooglenifty and some of Capercaillie's more adventurous stuff, Manau's 'Celtic Rap' from Brittany.

But the question is, where can they go from here? It's been mixed wiith everything that's come out so far, so it seems like to 'progress' we have to wait for something new to develop elsewhere before it can be worked into the roots sounds. Dig?

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Jan-04-07 10:59 AM

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167. "i'll allow it (c) mills lane"
In response to Reply # 162


  

          

that same kind of syncretism is exactly what propells hip-hop and why i love it and see it as an expanding, evolving genre. if i were to think about it more it's probably not even unique to hip-hop and americana (or whatever term you'd prefer).

  

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low2behold
Member since Jan 05th 2006
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Thu Jan-04-07 10:09 AM

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155. "beat making is underated and that probably feeds its progress."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

-------------
IG: mike_gx
-------------

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Jan-04-07 10:12 AM

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156. "this is crucial, i think."
In response to Reply # 155


  

          

as popular as hip-hop the music/genre is, the actual art and science behind it is still overshadowed in the media and largely unknown to the masses. i guess once every 12 year old is making beats then it might be time to move on, but until then it's thriving IMO.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Thu Jan-04-07 10:19 AM

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158. "$300k will buy you a hit loop!!!"
In response to Reply # 156


  

          

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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low2behold
Member since Jan 05th 2006
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Thu Jan-04-07 10:30 AM

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161. "cats like michael jackson are 1st hand examples of good "beats""
In response to Reply # 156


  

          

-------------
IG: mike_gx
-------------

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Thu Jan-04-07 10:28 AM

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160. "i'm going to go out on a limb here and say..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i'm the most innovative producer of any genre out there, and i plan to prove it this year. afterwards everyone will have to step their game up.
























yeah i said it....that is all.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Allah
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183. "dubstep makes this POST OVER"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Peace.

_______________________
"Arm Leg Leg Arm Hate." c/o desus
_______________________
Divine Ruler
http://www.facebook.com/divineruler
__gigs__
__stuff__

  

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GumDrops
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184. "grime>>>>dubstep"
In response to Reply # 183


  

          

go to the dubplates section of dubplate.net and check out the snippets of new tracks there. some of the most amazing stuff coming out right now anywhere in the world. hip hop sucks in comparison - grime still sounds angry, hard, and hungry. hip hop just sounds complacent.

  

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ihatemasfonos
Member since Dec 26th 2005
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Sat Jan-06-07 04:56 PM

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186. "as far as electronica"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

go listen to the knife's "silent shout", then tell me electronica is stagnant right now.

-------------------------------------
<---- as long as you're laughing, lou...

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Sat Jan-06-07 06:09 PM

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187. "isn't that more pop?"
In response to Reply # 186


  

          

i downloaded that, haven't listened yet, but i thought it was just cute hipster shit, you know, pop music that isn't actually popular. no?

  

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ihatemasfonos
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Fri Jan-12-07 08:11 PM

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203. "i consider it to be on the "techno" end of the spectrum"
In response to Reply # 187


  

          

i really like it. i mean, i consider a lot of things that i can't classify as "pop." so you could put it in that bin if you wanted to, i suppose. i thought it was superb, personally.

-------------------------------------
<---- as long as you're laughing, lou...

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Sun Jan-07-07 11:15 AM

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188. "dubstep"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

so i listened to a christine vaccine dubstep mix someone posted last month and i enjoyed it, but to me so far dubstep just sounds like slow IDM. so far it's not dissimilar enough to avoid the stagnation accusation. i'm gonna listen to the Vex'd 2-disc album soon though.

  

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GumDrops
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192. "i find dubstep can often be quite boring and rhythmically dead"
In response to Reply # 188


  

          

but check this mix
http://www.barefiles.com/download.php?id=823
play it from about half an hour in when the (shitty) vocal tracks stop
i dont see how it could be denied that many of those beats are pushing things forward

  

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HighVoltage
Member since Jan 04th 2004
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Fri Jan-12-07 10:24 AM

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195. "i semi-agree"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

there arent many rock bands that come up with unique sounds these days... though there certainly are exceptions, but on the larger scale that holds true.

however, i would argue that jazz is just as innovative or fresh as hip hop is in the long run. there are just sooo many types of jazz music out there that you have a wide range thats constantly changing and evolving with cats comin up with new and inventive shit all the time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

www.itsallthewaylive.net

www.twitter.com/allthewaylive

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39983 posts
Fri Jan-12-07 10:40 AM

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196. "so did you semi vote no? voters came back w/ a vengeance!"
In response to Reply # 195


  

          

>there arent many rock bands that come up with unique sounds
>these days... though there certainly are exceptions, but on
>the larger scale that holds true.

but why though? why is running with a "throwback" sound in? i mean, not everyone likes new wave music, but at least those new wave (and no wave, for those who know what that is) bands were original with their sound. i mean that was some dope production IMO. and then the '90s had its own unique movements in rock, some inspired by earlier music (like neil young's influence on grunge) but still their own styles. that seems to be gone now. even in the "indie" bands some champion, the music's not that original and to me it's not interesting.

to me hip-hop production has been in a new wave type production/sound/music period for a while now, and not just because some are directly influenced by that era in rock, but because of shared aesthetics and artistic motivations.


>however, i would argue that jazz is just as innovative or
>fresh as hip hop is in the long run. there are just sooo many
>types of jazz music out there that you have a wide range thats
>constantly changing and evolving with cats comin up with new
>and inventive shit all the time.

i don't deny that about jazz as a genre, but lately? didn't marsalis put the nail in jazz's coffin? i'm not a jazz expert but it seems to dead to me. "jazz-influenced" bands seem to be more interesting and popular than actual jazz bands now.

  

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HighVoltage
Member since Jan 04th 2004
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Fri Jan-12-07 01:57 PM

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197. "RE: so did you semi vote no? voters came back w/ a vengeance!"
In response to Reply # 196
Fri Jan-12-07 01:58 PM by HighVoltage

  

          

>>there arent many rock bands that come up with unique sounds
>>these days... though there certainly are exceptions, but on
>>the larger scale that holds true.
>
>but why though? why is running with a "throwback" sound in? i
>mean, not everyone likes new wave music, but at least those
>new wave (and no wave, for those who know what that is) bands
>were original with their sound. i mean that was some dope
>production IMO. and then the '90s had its own unique movements
>in rock, some inspired by earlier music (like neil young's
>influence on grunge) but still their own styles. that seems to
>be gone now. even in the "indie" bands some champion, the
>music's not that original and to me it's not interesting.

well thats mainly because everyone is saying Hip Hop is Dead, but really Rock is Dead. Somehow emo engulfed Rock, and thats all you hear now for the most part. And every emo band sounds alike. I miss the rock I grew up on... Rage Against The Machine, old school Incubus (SCIENCE style), Soundgarden, Bush, Smashing Pumpkins, Nirvana, etc. (i'm 22 years old). There are no rock bands like that anymore and thats what started my migration to hip hop. In fact, the only rock i listen to now are the bands I grew up on that are still around in some form or classic rock (led zep, black crowes, allman bros, the doors, hendrix, stevie ray vaughan, etc.)

>to me hip-hop production has been in a new wave type
>production/sound/music period for a while now, and not just
>because some are directly influenced by that era in rock, but
>because of shared aesthetics and artistic motivations.

yeah, theres all kinds of hip hop production out there. from crunk to underground to old school to soul/funk. its interesting how you can play 2 beats that are classified as hip hop or rap, yet its possible they sound nothing alike, which i think is interesting because its pretty much impossible to say that for rock.

>
>
>>however, i would argue that jazz is just as innovative or
>>fresh as hip hop is in the long run. there are just sooo
>many
>>types of jazz music out there that you have a wide range
>thats
>>constantly changing and evolving with cats comin up with new
>>and inventive shit all the time.
>
>i don't deny that about jazz as a genre, but lately? didn't
>marsalis put the nail in jazz's coffin? i'm not a jazz expert
>but it seems to dead to me. "jazz-influenced" bands seem to be
>more interesting and popular than actual jazz bands now.

well, more on the underground scene. shit like Soil & Pimp Sessions absolutely blows me away (check em out, they are from japan and call it Death Jazz http://www.myspace.com/soilandpimpsessions). I mean, compare that to a John Coltraine or Chick Corea and its like apples and oranges but its still jazz. Though I guess jazz has past its prime with its legends all passed or getting up there in age. I mean, my boy Herbie Hancock is still doing shows, but as far as any newcomers that stand out, its few and far between because as you said, most of the new cats are in jazz influenced type of bands.


edit: i voted 'Agree' btw.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

www.itsallthewaylive.net

www.twitter.com/allthewaylive

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Fri Jan-12-07 02:43 PM

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198. "RE: so did you semi vote no? voters came back w/ a vengeance!"
In response to Reply # 197


  

          

>well thats mainly because everyone is saying Hip Hop is Dead,
>but really Rock is Dead. Somehow emo engulfed Rock, and thats
>all you hear now for the most part. And every emo band sounds
>alike. I miss the rock I grew up on... Rage Against The
>Machine, old school Incubus (SCIENCE style), Soundgarden,
>Bush, Smashing Pumpkins, Nirvana, etc. (i'm 22 years old).

so do i! i mean these are not the best rock bands, and talentwise not even the best of the '90s arguably, but like you i grew up listening to this era of rock radio and back then they had a variety! all of these bands you listed were different from each other (ok, bush tried to sound like nirvana, but asides from them). but now it's all so bland and similar!


>yeah, theres all kinds of hip hop production out there. from
>crunk to underground to old school to soul/funk.

exactly.


>well, more on the underground scene. shit like Soil & Pimp
>Sessions absolutely blows me away (check em out, they are from
>japan and call it Death Jazz
>http://www.myspace.com/soilandpimpsessions).

i've heard some from them before on gilles peterson's show. they seemed retro but they're good.


>edit: i voted 'Agree' btw.

i think a lot of OKPs are overcompensating and clicking no, like "i have taste! i don't just listen to hip-hop, this poll is biased and ignorant, i'ma click NO!"

  

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HighVoltage
Member since Jan 04th 2004
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Fri Jan-12-07 02:52 PM

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199. "yeah, we're on the same page with this one"
In response to Reply # 198


  

          

if you vote yes, thats not saying you dont listen to a variety of music, i think people are kinda mixing that up.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

www.itsallthewaylive.net

www.twitter.com/allthewaylive

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Fri Jan-12-07 02:58 PM

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200. "it's not easy being green (c) kermit"
In response to Reply # 199


  

          

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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HighVoltage
Member since Jan 04th 2004
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Fri Jan-12-07 03:33 PM

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201. "it aint eassyyy beeing whiiiiiite (c) Franklin/Gob"
In response to Reply # 200


  

          

~~~~~~~~~~~~

www.itsallthewaylive.net

www.twitter.com/allthewaylive

  

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GumDrops
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Fri Jan-12-07 06:44 PM

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202. "Q: what are the beats/producers that inspired this post?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

id be interested to hear your recommendations

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Sat Jan-13-07 06:43 PM

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204. "RE: Q: what are the beats/producers that inspired this post?"
In response to Reply # 202


  

          

>id be interested to hear your recommendations

i can't even remember.. you read my posts though, you know who i'm feeling productionwise.. i just think there're a lot of good and varied things going on in the field right now. it may not be the best ever era for hip-hop production but at least it's still thriving.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Thu Feb-01-07 04:54 PM

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205. "indy rock is starting to shit on hiphop"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

this is a recent revelation of mine. but yeah rock is doing some major shit.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Feb-01-07 05:20 PM

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206. "elaborate"
In response to Reply # 205


  

          

name names, explain how it's progressive, etc.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Thu Feb-01-07 05:29 PM

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207. "a lot of studio experimentation going on..."
In response to Reply # 206


  

          

now i'm not going to say this is the first time that rock has become adventurous in the studio, but i think there's a lot more of it going on. tv on the radio is the obvious example. and after hearing bloc party's horrid attempt at it, i was avoiding calling it a good trend. but the menomena friend and foe and to a lesser extent blood brothers young machetes have changed my mind. so long as its not blatant imitation (which i think bloc is guilty of), there's room for a lot of new shit. rock right now is the only place where i'm hearing new sounds if that makes sense. shit all hiphops new sounds are just recycled from the 80's.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Thu Feb-01-07 05:39 PM

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208. "I don't think this is particularly new at all..."
In response to Reply # 207


          

Indie rock has stood on the same spot more or less since the mid-90's (and that's stretching it). If anything, the studio experimentation has become WAY tamer than the glory days of Butthole Surfers (86-87) or something like Royal Trux "Twin infinitives" (90). Sure, there may be more Hip-hop or electronica influences nowadays and the bands may be more open-minded towards stuff outside of the "rock" spectrum but I'm not sure about that either...

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Feb-01-07 06:00 PM

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209. "RE: a lot of studio experimentation going on..."
In response to Reply # 207


  

          

>shit all hiphops new sounds are
>just recycled from the 80's.

you really believe this or are you exaggerating to make a point?

anyway, i see your point w/ studio experimentation, it's popular again (vs. the blatant retro sound popularized by the strokes, the white stripes, and all those other trendy "the" bands), but like jakob said, that in itself isn't that new or special. it's a nice diversion until the next retro sound comes around. i don't have much faith that this is anything more than a fleeting movement and, b/c i don't really check for indie rock any more (can you blame me for stopping?), i haven't heard a lot of these new bands and specific albums touted for their so-called experimentation.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Thu Feb-01-07 10:02 PM

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210. "i ALWAYS exaggerate to make a point"
In response to Reply # 209


  

          

I also accept that it isn't the first time for rock experimentation. but for my tastes as an example i enjoy the experimentation of the 70's more than I do that of the 80's. I think what's going on now is much different from what was happening in the 90's and its not just the electronic factor, though it is partially motivated by technology. I like the attitude which shies away from canned expression and deals more with 'natural' expression, if that means anything. Right now I think the integration of natural expression with technological advances is really creating some good music.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39983 posts
Thu Feb-01-07 10:19 PM

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211. "emo?"
In response to Reply # 210


  

          

>I like the
>attitude which shies away from canned expression and deals
>more with 'natural' expression, if that means anything.

"the death of formalism in music"?

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Thu Feb-01-07 11:38 PM

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213. "to be honest i don't listen to the lyrics that much"
In response to Reply # 211


  

          

i know this quote will come back to haunt me.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39983 posts
Thu Feb-01-07 11:51 PM

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214. "bwahaha."
In response to Reply # 213


  

          

>i know this quote will come back to haunt me.

you're not kidding. it's the same criticism you level against hip-hop. i actually dig rock lyrics but there are so few "recent" (2000-) bands whose lyrics i can get into. that was actually one of the things this poll is about when i said that rock is in a lull. you shouldn't have to tune out the lyrics of these indie rock bands you're listening to. they should be coming w/ it. i mean, rock lyrics aren't for everyone, but there are lyricists in the genre with something to say and who can express themselves eloquently. no reason to give rock a pass when it's shown itself capable in the past of having good lyrics.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Fri Feb-02-07 12:00 AM

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215. "i know... but i spent so much time hating rock, its nice to have anythin..."
In response to Reply # 214
Fri Feb-02-07 12:01 AM by imcvspl

  

          

to be appreciative about.

honestly i think the lyrics are the place where experimentation could be reigned in. its like write some amazing 'simple' lyrics, and learn vocal arrangement instead of trying to be clever with effects and shit to mask some cryptic emotion which the lead guitar is expressing more than the words are.

as a parallel though, i find mama's gun unlistenable, even though the music is pretty good. but i can bump worldwide underground on repeat though it lacks the musicianship of mg.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39983 posts
Fri Feb-02-07 12:08 AM

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216. "freeform, abstract lyrics in rock"
In response to Reply # 215


  

          

is usually not a good look...

obtuse, ambiguous, that's fine as long as it's artful/creative and has a purpose (even if it's some kind of satire)

simplicity is great

what's not great is lyrics the listener doesn't care about and doesn't find memorable

  

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dondonald98
Charter member
posts
Thu Feb-01-07 11:08 PM

212. "This is a stupid post"
In response to Reply # 0


          

You have seen afropunk a million times
You dont like white hipsters
You are cool, so you like eltronic music
you are a loser

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39983 posts
Wed Feb-07-07 01:08 PM

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217. "^ as a companion to:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"are genres like jazz and classical a drain on talent from the mainstream..."
http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=1095682&mesg_id=1095682&listing_type=search

and
"the closest thing to Quincy Jones in hip hop is NOT Dr Dre but its"
http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=1095224&mesg_id=1095224&listing_type=search

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39983 posts
Wed Mar-07-07 10:52 PM

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218. "*glad this didn't get deleted*"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


  

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