I first heard that term out of the mouth of legendary boxing trainer/commentator Teddy Atlas while discussing the 8th-round TKO beating that Mike Tyson took at the hands of Lennox Lewis.

That shit hurt my heart when he said it & my first instinct was to cuss at my TV screen like Teddy's hating ass could actually hear me.

I grew up on Tyson knocking motherfuckas out.

My coolest unc even took me to see Iron Mike live in his heyday down at Trump Plaza in Atlantic City a couple times (vs Tyrell Biggs first then later Michael Spinks).

As I grew into adolescence, I realized it'd never be quite the same post-prison but there was enough evidence to allow my love as a fan to outweigh logic.

Atlas claimed that Tyson didn't really have the belief in himself at that stage.

Never really convinced himself before or during the battle that he could defeat a bigger, younger and by then more skilled/better-conditioned foe in Lennox.

The frenetic head movement, ferocity & unpredictability had all but evaporated.

Instead you had a more ordinary & always-undersized Tyson who now allowed himself to eat stiff jabs and absorb punishment for enough rounds to make it a 'respectable' defeat.

It was so blatant that The Baddest Man On The Planet wouldn't even take the risk of trying to catch the notoriously suspect-chinned adonis with a hook or upper cut that might get him out of there quick like far lesser heavyweights such as Hasim Rachman or Oliver McCall had.

Eventually after the initial sting wore off, Teddy's words were fairly undeniable.

Hip-hop is a gladiator sport, like boxing or stand-up comedy.

You need to be fully committed to it, retain rhythm/reflexes thru repetition, stay in fighting shape even during the lapses between training, maintain the edge that got you this far despite the fact that you're now enjoying the spoils of success and the physical toll mounts.

And even if you do somehow persevere past those obstacles, it's still a profession so unforgiving that each next visit to the ring, the stage, the studio could be the end of your career.

Tyson didn't go in there that night back in '02 planning or truly believing he could beat Lennox, he was there for the big check to pay debts and as an ex-con with an 8th grade education he didn't yet know what else he could do to get it.

So Kid Dynamite became just another game loser trying to hang in the fight.

As The Roots have amazingly become the world's greatest house band sharing stages with the president & Paul McCartney on national TV, it's pretty clear they're not even really trying that hard anymore on these LPs.

What's left of the band that was grinding thru the 90's/early 00's doing 250 dates a year knows that they're not gonna eat off records or tour money.

They've grown up & gotten a steady well-paying gig with benes and endless networking opportunities.

Good. They've more than earned it and I'm proud of how far the boys have come since the Middle East club days.

Yet Questo, the hardest-working-man-in-show-business, is a student of the game and knows what affectations/associations will serve to maintain his Metacritic score each time out.

But like an old friend who has to keep it true, it's time to admit that we've now been hearing some variation of this same blueprint for ten years.

And I won't even get into the records growing increasingly darker in content & aggressively more 'difficult' as some sort of subconscious antithesis to the crowd-pleasing band you see on TV.

What you end up with is skillfully played but somewhat ponderous music cloaked in all the accoutrements and murky meaningfulness that the critics/certain fans will proudly proclaim they like but long-term very few truly love.

A month or two after this album when they do a show in New York/Philly/LA, the band will be back to playing Next Movement, Proceed, backing other artists and closing with You Got Me/Seed 2.0.

Short story now 'get a damn blog, Bomb!' long......none of this new shit sticks to the ribs.

We're in that 2000s Sonic Youth, post-70's Lou Reed, last 20 years or so Woody Allen, Neither Fish Nor Flesh TTD, post-WB Prince, Jack White after Elephant, George Carlin's caustic/barely-comedic last HBO special after 9/11, Red Hook Brooklyn Spike, Public Enemy with a 10-piece-band to play their R&RHOF Induction......you get the idea.

And oddly enough the group once considered 'conscious' by proxy in the late 90's now lyrically seems to try to make big sweeping societal statements but neglect to do the individual soul-bearing work required.

This new album is hopefully the nadir of albums made in this style, the sonic/thematic mood is like some sort of dystopian Gorillaz record where the rap verses are ancillary, minor keys are unrelenting, a few string breaks are interjected, the tempos rarely change and the hooks feel like elongated funeral dirges that you instantly forget when they mercifully end.

After their umpteenth 'challenging' indie-rock/art-hop album in a row, the challenge The Legendary seem least up for taking on is attempting to make entertaining music with any degree of rap energy or rock danger.

Hate to be the 'you grandiose motherfuckas don't play the shit that they like' type but fuck it, after 20 years of countless shows, embarrassing numbers of posts & double-digit automatic album purchases I guess I feel like I've earned the right to gripe.

Love, Peace & Gourmet Food-Truck Chicken Grease,

Bomb

>
>After their umpteenth 'challenging' indie-rock/art-hop album
>in a row, the challenge The Legendary seem least up for taking
>on is attempting to make entertaining music with any degree of
>rap energy or rock danger.
>

<--- Big Baller World Order

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

i think this question is relevant,
because at this point, the band does not have to release albums.
they have the tonight show gig.
quest is a tastemaker.
he can DJ. he'll always be able to do guest speeches. seminars.
produce for other artists.

hell, if times got really rough, he could sell his vinyl (although i am sure
it would never come to that).


so before we can answe the question of whether the roots
are "losing," we have to at least come up with an educated guess of what they are trying to accomplish by continuing to release material.

you mentioned Tyson and going in for another payday.
i don't think quest would release albums at this point
if it was only about money.

i can see him DJ'ing just for money, but not releasing albums.


so maybe it's about continuing to release critically acclaimed albums that
go gold. maybe that's his goal. i could see that, but i don't think that means
he's down for the count.

look at the artists you mentioned...
dylan/ prince/ etc. when they were past their prime.

it gets to a point when a major artist (or maybe any self actualized person)
has nothing left to prove.
they have many things they can do, but nothing left to prove.

will dylan/ prince/ etc... ever reach the peaks of their commercial heyday again?
of course not. but for diehard fans of these artists,
those post-prime albums hold a special place in our hearts.
not just because we are stans (although that's a part of it)
but because there is something profound about an artist
that has accomplished damn near everything still find ways to
experiment within their own sound.

in a way, i can get lost inside of Stevie's "conversation peace"
just as much as i can get lost in "innervisions," because as a fan,
it's a trip to hear stevie experiment within his own limitations.
he subtly shows off the type of harmonic and rhythmic depth that
a new kid on the block couldn't pull off no matter how brilliant they are.

will the kids care about a new stevie album?
no.
could i recommend "conversation peace" to somebody just getting up on stevie?
of course not.


but i am love that stevie is in the place where he can drop an album
if wants to, when he wants to, and it sounds exactly the way he wants it to.
are stevie's releases since "hotter than july" a failure
just because he's no longer a former kid artist with a chip on his shoulder
and something to prove?

not hardly.



which brings us back to the roots.
although i am not a roots stan, i respect them a great deal.
but more than all of that, i am a huge fan of what the represent.
they are one of the few hip hop artist i can think of
that has the artistic freedom that was granted to dylan/ prince/ stones etc while
past their prime.


i guess jay COULD do that,
but he'll never open up and do a album that isn't concerned
about having at least one song in the top 10.

they have the luxury to do the albums they want while past their prime,
and NOT be disrespected for not having a top 10 single.


most artists never get to that point.
most of the artists that DO get to that point are not black.
now ask yourself how many of the black artists that got to that point are hip hop.

what the roots are doing right now with their albums
isn't a loss. it's a miracle.

so i don't think of them as losing the fight by releasing albums.
as long as they want to do it and fans want to hear it,
they should keep doing it.

and maybe i feel they almost have an obligation to do it,
if for no other reason that to show that a black hip hop group
can occupy the "past your commercial prime, but still artistically relevant"
sweet spot that is usually reserved for white legacy acts.

hell, even michael jackson wasn't able to get to that point.
maybe that's what killed him.
maybe that's what kills a lot of our legends, when you think about it.

in other words,
i say the roots won.

>i think this question is relevant,
>because at this point, the band does not have to release
>albums.
>they have the tonight show gig.
>quest is a tastemaker.
>he can DJ. he'll always be able to do guest speeches.
>seminars.
>produce for other artists.
>
>hell, if times got really rough, he could sell his vinyl
>(although i am sure
>it would never come to that).
>
>
>so before we can answe the question of whether the roots
>are "losing," we have to at least come up with an educated
>guess of what they are trying to accomplish by continuing to
>release material.
>
>you mentioned Tyson and going in for another payday.
>i don't think quest would release albums at this point
>if it was only about money.
>
oh it's not for the money, as I mentioned they're not making money off these albums.

It's more a critical legacy type of thing.


>i can see him DJ'ing just for money, but not releasing albums.
>
>
>
>so maybe it's about continuing to release critically acclaimed
>albums that
>go gold. maybe that's his goal. i could see that, but i don't
>think that means
>he's down for the count.
>
>look at the artists you mentioned...
>dylan/ prince/ etc. when they were past their prime.
>
stands to reason as a studio act The Roots are past that point too, which isn't unusual, how many bands even make 20 years?

>it gets to a point when a major artist (or maybe any self
>actualized person)
>has nothing left to prove.
>they have many things they can do, but nothing left to prove.
>
>
>will dylan/ prince/ etc... ever reach the peaks of their
>commercial heyday again?
>of course not. but for diehard fans of these artists,
>those post-prime albums hold a special place in our hearts.

Dylan was in a bad way for a good chunk of the 80's & first half of the 90's, those later albums from Time Out of Mind on are prolly his best run since Street Legal tho.

I'd love to hear a good new Prince album but I've somewhat given up on that.

>not just because we are stans (although that's a part of it)
>but because there is something profound about an artist
>that has accomplished damn near everything still find ways to
>
>experiment within their own sound.
>
these albums tonally & thematically aren't really 'experiments' any more, it's pseudo-experimental but they've sorta been using this road map since Game Theory with this one & How I Get Over being the least enjoyable.

Rising Down started ferociously but sorta falls back into this Dice-hook mid-tempo malaise after 75 Bars.

>in a way, i can get lost inside of Stevie's "conversation
>peace"
>just as much as i can get lost in "innervisions," because as a
>fan,
>it's a trip to hear stevie experiment within his own
>limitations.
>he subtly shows off the type of harmonic and rhythmic depth
>that
>a new kid on the block couldn't pull off no matter how
>brilliant they are.
>
>will the kids care about a new stevie album?
>no.
>could i recommend "conversation peace" to somebody just
>getting up on stevie?
>of course not.
>
>
>but i am love that stevie is in the place where he can drop an
>album
>if wants to, when he wants to, and it sounds exactly the way
>he wants it to.
>are stevie's releases since "hotter than july" a failure
>just because he's no longer a former kid artist with a chip on
>his shoulder
>and something to prove?
>
>not hardly.
>
we're talking Stevie Wonder, dawg, the level of songwriting is a different tier.
>
>
>which brings us back to the roots.
>although i am not a roots stan, i respect them a great deal.
>but more than all of that, i am a huge fan of what the
>represent.
>they are one of the few hip hop artist i can think of
>that has the artistic freedom that was granted to dylan/
>prince/ stones etc while
>past their prime.
>
>
>i guess jay COULD do that,
>but he'll never open up and do a album that isn't concerned
>about having at least one song in the top 10.
>
>they have the luxury to do the albums they want while past
>their prime,
>and NOT be disrespected for not having a top 10 single.
>
they never had a Top 10 single, my point is they're spinning their wheels in this same mold & haven't even added a song to their own canon in a fan favorite sense.
>
>most artists never get to that point.
>most of the artists that DO get to that point are not black.
>now ask yourself how many of the black artists that got to
>that point are hip hop.
>
>what the roots are doing right now with their albums
>isn't a loss. it's a miracle.
>
I disagree, they're capable of better work but they're churning out half-baked concept records for critical applause but little else in the long run.

>so i don't think of them as losing the fight by releasing
>albums.
>as long as they want to do it and fans want to hear it,
>they should keep doing it.
>
>and maybe i feel they almost have an obligation to do it,
>if for no other reason that to show that a black hip hop group
>
making a good hip-hop record would be a nice statement there, this indie-rock arty mishmash is yielding diminishing returns.

>can occupy the "past your commercial prime, but still
>artistically relevant"
>sweet spot that is usually reserved for white legacy acts.
>
>hell, even michael jackson wasn't able to get to that point.
>maybe that's what killed him.
>maybe that's what kills a lot of our legends, when you think
>about it.
>
>in other words,
>i say the roots won.
>
obviously they 'won', the concept of 'game loser' is that now it's just a case of showing up for appearances sake but not really digging in.

There's obviously a myriad of reasons for that, not the least of which is they used to live off working their early records for 2/3 years straight.

The stakes were higher, now the records are a side hustle.

In the lesson, ever. I havent heard the album yet.

Last roots albums i bought (phrenology, tipping point, game theory).... Heard undun about 8 times and there are some great traxx on there... But this review has me skeptical.


Extremely well written piece tho

* * * * =========
* * * * =========
* * * * =========
==============
==============

for the record I liked undun to a degree, much more than HIGO & this record, however now that I think about it I haven't played it in awhile.

you want old shit, buy the old albums.

if you don't like it, to each is own, but why do they have to held to any sort of standard? why can't it be experimental & different, if nothing else? isn't labeling them as being in some sort of a "stage" putting them into a box?

them niggas is gettin old yo. if you been a diehard for a while, you old too.

aren't you supposed to grow w/ age?

if you don't like anymore, perhaps you've grown apart?

i just don't get why mofos keep waiting a certain sound, when the roots do nothing but push envelopes & do new shit.

(no snark-i think your comparison is introspective as fck. i simply beg to differ w/ the expectations (maybe the wrong word, but bleh))

_____________
if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayer™

>you want old shit, buy the old albums.
>
own them all.

>if you don't like it, to each is own, but why do they have to
>held to any sort of standard?
uh.......artists are often held to the standards their art created.

why can't it be experimental &
>different, if nothing else?
it is neither experimental, nor different, this is a worse version of the record they've now been making for 8-10 years.

>isn't labeling them as being in
>some sort of a "stage" putting them into a box?
>
it's an analogy

>them niggas is gettin old yo. if you been a diehard for a
>while, you old too.
>
>aren't you supposed to grow w/ age?
>
I'm 37, my tastes transform over time but I didn't become a soccer mom, I'm still an active participant in this music shit.

Might be part of the reason I still have all my hair and in its original color.

>if you don't like anymore, perhaps you've grown apart?
>
>i just don't get why mofos keep waiting a certain sound, when
>the roots do nothing but push envelopes & do new shit.
>
they really don't tho, that's my main issue, it's mostly aural window dressing.

>(no snark-i think your comparison is introspective as fck. i
>simply beg to differ w/ the expectations (maybe the wrong
>word, but bleh))

>>you want old shit, buy the old albums.

>own them all.

-rock them shits, reminisce & be fulfilled!

>>if you don't like it, to each is own, but why do they have
>to
>>held to any sort of standard?

>uh.......artists are often held to the standards their art
>created.

-never to be allowed to expand? ppbbtt. you know that's silly.

>why can't it be experimental &
>>different, if nothing else?
>it is neither experimental, nor different, this is a worse
>version of the record they've now been making for 8-10 years.

-says you. where's your lead single homie? i'll cop if it's dope! no d/l!

>>isn't labeling them as being in
>>some sort of a "stage" putting them into a box?

>it's an analogy

-indeed. an anology that lends labels most artists don't care for.

>>them niggas is gettin old yo. if you been a diehard for a
>>while, you old too.

>>aren't you supposed to grow w/ age?

>I'm 37, my tastes transform over time but I didn't become a
>soccer mom, I'm still an active participant in this music
>shit.

>Might be part of the reason I still have all my hair and in
>its original color.

>>if you don't like anymore, perhaps you've grown apart?

>>i just don't get why mofos keep waiting a certain sound,
>when
>>the roots do nothing but push envelopes & do new shit.

>they really don't tho, that's my main issue, it's mostly aural
>window dressing.

-that sir, is your opinion. & you don't have the answers!

if they remade illadeph over & over, niggas would have some shade to throw abt that too.

so, those of us who think the recent albums are dope are.....

because.....

_____________
if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayer™

Did you actually read the post?

They aren't expanding. They arent doing anything different. They sound uninspired. Etc etc.

That's the point.

Adding strings doesn't make an album different.

And the "where's your single/album" response comes acress as mad-defensive and right out of the stan playbook.

dumb fuck


>They aren't expanding. They arent doing anything different.
>They sound uninspired. Etc etc.

quest and the rest would obviously disagree with this
as was said..to each their own. you either didn't evolve with the band
or more likely....this is a classic case of ppl hating when their favorite artist gets bigger than life
move the fuck on loser

what Herman Cain is up to or what's the latest on the Lebron app.

Of course Quest would disgree with me saying they aren't expanding. When that thought entered your head, how excited did you get to type it??


I'm not saying they are actively trying to make bad music.


But to me (and obviously others), they sound uninspired and stuck in a rut. At the very least, sonically in a rut.

In my (and others) opinion. Which, you know, is the driving force of this forum. Discussing opinions on music.

"Questo would disagree"hahahahahahah

At least your streat of being literally the dumbest poster in all of Okayplayer is in tact. And I'm the loser.

Honestly, Bomb said it much better than I have and hats off to him.

But anyone coming through saying "where's your album" really needs to check their stannery.

But at the very least at least that is a better rebute than "Questo wouldn't think so" hahahahaha

And people need to back off the "you didn't evolve with the band" excuse because its painfully played out.

That's the problem. The Roots have released the same album 5 times in a row with minor changes (usually for the worse).

And its not like them. At least it didn't used to be. How different was TFA from Illadelph and Phren from TFA and Game Theory from anything prior?

Hahaha so in this thread we have people freaking out saying-

"where's your album/single?"

"If you want their old stuff spin their old sh!t" <<which completely misses the point

"you didn't evolve with the band"

"Questo wouldn't think so"

"loser"

"bullsh!t"


hahahaha. Nice level of discourse.

i replied w/ quote.

>They aren't expanding. They arent doing anything different. They sound uninspired. Etc etc.

>That's the point.

-that's not a point, that's your fucking opinion.

(art and opinions are made to clash, btw)

>Adding strings doesn't make an album different.

-if that's your take, you're remedial.

>And the "where's your single/album" response comes acress as
mad-defensive and right out of the stan playbook.

-yet, you have still failed to produce a better sounding product. so why do you matter if all you got is shade?

you don't like it, it's not for you. go cop other shit. why does it have to be someone's failure because whoever ain't feeling it?

no one is defending anything.

niggas just discussing, yo-

try to remark w/o being snide.

_____________
if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayer™

They can be as dark and experimental as they'd like, but I'd really like a Roots album to have more than five or six Black Thought verses total.

That said, I do like this album, though not nearly as much as their previous efforts. I'm not at all in the camp of "The Roots have been getting worse for years." I thought "HIGO" was one of the best hip-hop of 2010. I think "Undun" was one of the top 10 hip-hop albums of 2011. And this album definitely works on a good number of spots. Whenever he does rap, Thought rips it, and even through the much bally-hooed "dark" atmosphere, there's a lot of humor in the verses that hasn't been in many of their recent albums. But I'm definitely don't feel the compulsion to listen to this album obsessively like I have the ones that came before it.


>As The Roots have amazingly become the world's greatest house band
>sharing stages with the president & Paul McCartney on national TV,
>it's pretty clear they're not even really trying that hard anymore on
>these LPs.

This part I disagree with. I think they're definitely trying hard. This album may not always work for me, but it's not boring. At all. And a boring Roots album would be a bigger sin.


>After their umpteenth 'challenging' indie-rock/art-hop album in a
>row, the challenge The Legendary seem least up for taking on is
>attempting to make entertaining music with any degree of rap energy
>or rock danger.

Eh, I'm not so sure I feel you here either. It's treading to close to the "Making 'challenging' music is easy, but making music that has pop value is what's really difficult" argument that I really, really, REALLY hate. And really, they already sorta went down that road with "The Tipping Point," which many hated because they thought it was too accessable and straight ahead and only really featured Black Thought (side note: I loved that album too).

I don't think the situation is quite as bleak as you're painting it here. This isn't mid-'00s KRS, churning out album with weaks ('cause they're the only ones he has a budget for) and so far up his own asshole that it's difficult for him to breathe. This isn't 2009 Rakim, again saddled with poor beats and a complete lack of interest in rhyming. There's a lot of the Roots that I grew up loving on this album. I just think they need to refocus they're musical energy, for lack of a better term.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

on these past three records and then of course in terms of the show.

He seems happy tho.

>They can be as dark and experimental as they'd like, but I'd
>really like a Roots album to have more than five or six Black
>Thought verses total.
>
He killed 'The Dark (Trinity)', as did Quest on drums, that's prolly my only true standout cut.

>That said, I do like this album, though not nearly as much as
>their previous efforts. I'm not at all in the camp of "The
>Roots have been getting worse for years." I thought "HIGO" was
>one of the best hip-hop of 2010.
don't remember what else was out that year but to me that was their weakest record until this one.

I think "Undun" was one of
>the top 10 hip-hop albums of 2011.

perhaps.

the story/concept/narrative was underwhelming tho, particularly after the Kendrick album that came out afterwards.

'Kool On' was dope, 'Other Side' goes live.

And this album definitely
>works on a good number of spots. Whenever he does rap, Thought
>rips it, and even through the much bally-hooed "dark"
>atmosphere, there's a lot of humor in the verses that hasn't
>been in many of their recent albums. But I'm definitely don't
>feel the compulsion to listen to this album obsessively like I
>have the ones that came before it.
>
I listened to this thing about five or six times in a row and couldn't tell you much about it.

>
>>As The Roots have amazingly become the world's greatest house
>band
>>sharing stages with the president & Paul McCartney on
>national TV,
>>it's pretty clear they're not even really trying that hard
>anymore on
>>these LPs.
>
>This part I disagree with. I think they're definitely trying
>hard. This album may not always work for me, but it's not
>boring. At all. And a boring Roots album would be a bigger
>sin.
>
We'll agree to disagree, this is an incredibly well-crafted but irredeemably boring album.

>
>>After their umpteenth 'challenging' indie-rock/art-hop album
>in a
>>row, the challenge The Legendary seem least up for taking on
>is
>>attempting to make entertaining music with any degree of rap
>energy
>>or rock danger.
>
>Eh, I'm not so sure I feel you here either. It's treading to
>close to the "Making 'challenging' music is easy, but making
>music that has pop value is what's really difficult" argument
>that I really, really, REALLY hate.
I skipped listing 'pop' because that's exactly what I'm *not* saying.

But this is like some new MOR/indie-rock/arty middleground record that obviously barely resembles a rap record but they're not 'rocking' either, Kirk's a great guitarist but on record they've never really found a way to let him loose.

They've got a horn section now too but you couldn't really tell.

They're a shit-hot big-ass multifaceted band that on recent records sounds like Quest & Poyser doing these Beatles/Radiohead-style pastiches.


And really, they already
>sorta went down that road with "The Tipping Point," which many
>hated because they thought it was too accessable and straight
>ahead and only really featured Black Thought (side note: I
>loved that album too).
>
I went to the Tipping Point release party when I still lived in Philly, that's been ten years now.

I'm just looking for something with a different mood, I don't need them going to call DJ Mustard.

Just perhaps a strong rap record or if you're gonna 'rock' actually do so.

Make a Meters album with Steve Albini producing.

I don't really care, I'm just saying we've seen this movie before a few times now.

>I don't think the situation is quite as bleak as you're
>painting it here. This isn't mid-'00s KRS, churning out album
>with weaks ('cause they're the only ones he has a budget for)
>and so far up his own asshole that it's difficult for him to
>breathe. This isn't 2009 Rakim, again saddled with poor beats
>and a complete lack of interest in rhyming. There's a lot of
>the Roots that I grew up loving on this album. I just think
>they need to refocus they're musical energy, for lack of a
>better term.

I'm not saying they're done, I wouldn't have bothered typing all that if I believed they were.

I'm just admitting I've reached The Tipping Point for these moody, metacritic-chasing, droning hook 'think piece' records.

It's become a default approach with diminishing rewards.

>Kirk's a great guitarist but on
>record they've never really found a way to let him loose.
>
>They've got a horn section now too but you couldn't really
>tell.

and probably why 'Phrenology' remains my favorite Roots record... the band sounds like a fucking BAND on it. It goes in every direction, and imho successfully.

Haven't listened to the new one, or most of the past several, but then again I HAVE become a soccer mom, so I have an excuse...

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

that was Ben Kenny era on guitar tho & he was a converted bassist playing guitar so it was more chord-crunch driven.

Sometimes the technical limitations can be a blessing rather than burden.

The best Roots arrangement of 'Concerto Of The Desperado' was the version they played in the late 90's before they even had a guitarist in the group at all.

They'd take Kamal out from behind his keyboard (with him being the only touring key player) and hand him a guitar for just that song.

He would play a line of two or maybe three notes in a loop repeatedly for the whole joint while holding the guitar out front with a big grin on his face like the Long Island bro down the hall from my Northeastern U dorm room when he borrowed his roommates guitar & learned how to play the opening lick from Candlebox's 'Far Behind'.

Song kinda bubbled quietly until Quest's drums cracked in & then Thought was off with the verse, tagging the Stetsasonic 'It Ain't Nothin Like Hip-Hop Music' mantra on the end of the hook.

Then the Stetsasonic 'It ain't nothin like hip-hop music' call-and-response-with-the-crowd tag at the end of each hook.

Plus that was during that (for lack of a better term) 'garage' semi-revival of the early 2000s so the template was different.

Now half of this Pitchfork stuff classified as rock doesn't actually 'rock' in any sense of the word but we've discussed that many times here before.

Phrenology was actually a jarring leap & one they felt they needed with the fender-rhodes/neo-soul sound that Things Fall Apart helped create fading & some of its biggest artists going MIA.

But yeah, I love that album, with those first four MCA/Geffen albums they're all great for completely different reasons which is a rare feat.

each album has songs that I could put on a Roots compilation but the albums as a whole don't last with me as long as they once did. I think I might've listened to The Tipping Point more than the last three or four albums. I know I've heard Phrenology and Game Theory a lot at this point.

Of course, this new album has to settle in with me a little bit more before. And as many people have already said, it could use more Black Thought.

Ultimately, I think what a lot of fans are looking for is an entire Roots album that carries that raw live energy they bring on stage over to songs that stay with you. I hate to use the term but it seems like what a lot of fans really want is for The Roots to be more poppy. Instead of albums that seemed to be more or less made for the critics, I want something that I know can only be made by The Roots: an album filled with awesome, raw, energetic rapping and live instrumentation.

That's what drew me to them originally. I'm 29. In middle school I always messed with The Roots simply because Black Thought rapped for what seemed like an eternity at a time and the band played the shit outta those instruments. It wasn't just some half-baked playing and rapping: it was full-on musicianship.

The Roots might actually be guilty of overthinking these albums at this point.
---------------------------------------


---------------------------------------

>each album has songs that I could put on a Roots compilation
>but the albums as a whole don't last with me as long as they
>once did. I think I might've listened to The Tipping Point
>more than the last three or four albums. I know I've heard
>Phrenology and Game Theory a lot at this point.
>
>Of course, this new album has to settle in with me a little
>bit more before. And as many people have already said, it
>could use more Black Thought.
>
>Ultimately, I think what a lot of fans are looking for is an
>entire Roots album that carries that raw live energy they
>bring on stage over to songs that stay with you. I hate to
>use the term but it seems like what a lot of fans really want
>is for The Roots to be more poppy. Instead of albums that
>seemed to be more or less made for the critics, I want
>something that I know can only be made by The Roots: an album
>filled with awesome, raw, energetic rapping and live
>instrumentation.
>
>That's what drew me to them originally. I'm 29. In middle
>school I always messed with The Roots simply because Black
>Thought rapped for what seemed like an eternity at a time and
>the band played the shit outta those instruments. It wasn't
>just some half-baked playing and rapping: it was full-on
>musicianship.
>
>The Roots might actually be guilty of overthinking these
>albums at this point.
>---------------------------------------
>
>
>---------------------------------------

was wack

and not for substance abuse, or whatever the fok

I could hear him sayin'

Redford? FOH, OCK, Ima SPIT!

HAHA.

I had Game Theory on the other day

dreams of M16s with loaded magazines...yeah, I need that.

I agree, I think they are over thinking these albums

like these reality contest shows like top chef or ink master

when they are up for critique

and the judges are like, you overthought this one, less is more.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

Things Fall Apart, Illadelph, Do You Want more, Game Theory.

I disagree with a lot of it - will come back to comment later - but really nice, thoughtful read.

-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

>I disagree with a lot of it - will come back to comment later
>- but really nice, thoughtful read.
>
>-thebigfunk
>
>~ i could still snort you under the table ~

I just want them to be that neo soul all star group we were promised with the soulquarian hype of 99/00

Them playing neo soul shit vented by a who's who of neo soul singers

That record would be a hit

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

sparked that subconsciously, peeped that earlier and it reminded me that we used to stretch out & let it fly sometimes just for sport.

Even had a lil flip of that archived Maxwell thread title but between being a decade-plus old reference & not wanting to be extra I kept it.

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

so it's easier for me to not only give them a pass for this 1 (since I don't like it either) but also to still expect to enjoy future albums


@rob_starrk

They can be as dark as they want just don't make Thought a guest artist on his own album. That's a crime IMO. Game Theory was the last album I loved and they continue to make albums with fewer songs that stick with each release since then.

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

I actually tried to give Undun a spin yesterday because their defenders had me second guessing myself.

Yeah there's a joint here and there but the album is PAINFULLY boring and I'm not compelled to listen to it.

What does Undun provide that Game Theory didn't provide 4x better?

As you said, they seem to be sticking to the same blueprint for the last 8 or so years and none of it sticks.

This new album has me really sratching my head.


And as you said, I'm all for experimenting and trying different things...but that is the exact opposite of what they've been doing.

They have been making the same album for 5 straight releases now and it gets worse each time.

I'm salty that self-professed Roots fans don't value Black Thought more too truthfully...

i agree with much of what you said, but not all. i definitely think they are still trying. but i have a had enough of these moody, depressing albums. i actually loved undun and listened to the new album a few times, and it just isn't grabbing me. obviously it needs more time to sink in but i feel like i just don't like it that much. i just want to hear some shit that knocks and thought rapping his ass off. artsy is cool but i want to hear something fun or at least something in a different mood from them.

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

I think the production is on-point. Thematically this is their strongest since Game Theory.

... but specifically for this release (dope written piece by the way fam). Game Theory is one of my fave albums of theirs, RD didn't get near as much burn as GT, but HIGO and Undun had dope spots and enough BT verses to tide me over. This one kind of lacks that although when Thought is on there the verses are NEVER phoned in, but it still leaves me with a hankering for more. I think I will pass on this releases (and I typically get multiples of each release since my kids are Roots fans as well ((edited of course)) ). I hope the next one does have more of Thought on it and hopefully we can get some Sandwiches too!

It's been all downhill after Rising Down for me, I hardly listened to How I got Over or Undun, and I haven't felt excited about listening to this new album yet. I used to run like a little kid to listen to a roots album when one came out but lately it feels like the new albums have been well executed compilation albums more than an actual The Roots record.

I'm not saying the albums are bad because they definitely are not but it's too much of the same by now, progression is cool but I'd like to see more of what used to be a combination of fun and serious.

Some of Organix, Do You Want More, Illadelphand Things mixed with Game Theory and Rising Down. Guess it's easy for me to say as a listener but putting a Roots cd on spin a couple of years ago wasn't dictated by whehter or not I was feeling serious, I could just put an album on blast at any time.

.

glad to see somebody still trying with their posting on this site, even if the roots aint tryin with their albums.

really tho, i think they are trying - trying to tread water and critic-bate with pseudo-deep shit that is as you said PONDEROUS

thats the word that comes to my mind most when listenening to this record, ponderous.

that said, black rock is sonically interesting and kinda madlibish in a way i dig. understand and the dark(trinity) are both kinda cool with the breakbeat aesthetic.. if it was more tracks like that id probably see it differently.

>glad to see somebody still trying with their posting on this
>site, even if the roots aint tryin with their albums.
>
every once in awhile....

>really tho, i think they are trying - trying to tread water
>and critic-bate with pseudo-deep shit that is as you said
>PONDEROUS
>
>thats the word that comes to my mind most when listenening to
>this record, ponderous.
>
yup, in Casey Kasem voice.

>that said, black rock is sonically interesting and kinda
>madlibish in a way i dig. understand and the dark(trinity) are
>both kinda cool with the breakbeat aesthetic.. if it was more
>tracks like that id probably see it differently.

I dig Dark (Trinity) a lot, definitely the standout on the album.

The others I would have to listen again to even recognize which cuts those are.

And that's after listening to that straight thru at least five times since yesterday.

album rap band don't, or didn't in the case of Carlin, bring it like they used to seems rather asinine and trifling. That's a hell of a lot of words to point out the obvious and expected course of a career.

_____________
if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayer™

If you used your own free time just to tell me I'm wasting mine, you're harrumphing backwards.

For the record Carlin was still killing into his mid-60's, it was just the last two specials as he approached 70 that really sucked.

Nothing physical tho even if he died shortly thereafter.

This ain't the NBA, this wasn't 'he got old & fell off' like Kevin Garnett in a Nets uniform looking like a staggering preying mantis missing his antenna.

If you're an artist that has your own lane, establshed & never transcended to the kind of megastardom that builds you up for an inevitably big fall, you can certainly still maintain in the arts.

Q-Tip made the best album of '08 two decades after Tribe dropped.

He's just still invested, possibly to an obsessive-compulsive level, in making a great album.

The Roots got bigger fish to fry but the albums still come, almost quicker than they did in the heyday.

Not to mention according to the critical chirping, they're 'bringing it' to stronger reviews than when they actually made strong rap albums.

Might be time to stop picking those joints up on the strength, took me both Volumes of the War & Peace albums to give up on Ice Cube even though instinctually I knew it had ended with 'you mean there snakes out there THIS BIG' in the trailer for "Anaconda".

Iron Mike wasn't old or cumulative punishment, he won the title back out of prison.

But when tested it became clear he'd lost his desire, belief and his skills had atrophied.

Since they aren't making the music that you want them to, their career resembles that of an aging, troubled fighter and a sick and sober Carlin towards the end of his rope. The comparison doesn't seem appropriate, and you seem to be placing a lot of responsibility on the Roots and not looking at other factors at play like your age when they were dropping your favorite records and how your tastes have or haven't changed. I agree about Q-Tip though, that was a great album.

but gonna pass on this one. Listened to the stream a few times and nothing stuck. And like you said, things have been trending to this outcome. I'm all for that growing with the artist shit. I guess The Roots finally outgrew me. This one didn't connect.

i don't agree w/ bomb's sentiment, but the analogy was well enough w/o specific correlation.

_____________
if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayer™

still kinda surprised ppl are falling over themselves to congratulate this guy on such a narrow viewed & masturbatory "piece"

Because I'm going to demand you make this exact same post
about Jay-Z now, whose last 3 albums have been orders of
magnitude shittier than the Roots' and you know that

Talk about it breh

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

listen to enough to recall much about it, BP3 woulda been a solid record if they cut literally every Timbaland record on it.

Mostly though while this post was something I've been avoiding stating here for awhile, Jigga discussion has been done to death.

_____________
if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayer™

Enjoyed the live band in the studio feel even if that was prolly partly necessity due to scheduling.

And love Black Thought's work on there.

Like 'Little Ghetto Boy' for instance, that's some of the most personal stuff Thought ever laid to wax.

Just half of the stuff that dude soldiered thru in his formative years many other rappers woulda milked on record for twenty albums.

Thought's always just been about showing & proving rather than showing & telling.

Full disclosure: I'm not really a big Legend fan, wouldn't buy one of his records independently.

I will say he had a lot more grit & soulfulness to his voice seeing them do this record live (obviously with stronger material than 'Save Room') at The Troubadour with The Roots the week this dropped.

That impressed me.

The fact that I caught The Roots at a small iconic LA venue but the show lasted 65 minutes and Black Thought (or Kamal) weren't there?

That depressed me.

It's A New Day, People!(c)That trailer catchphrase from that new Cruise flick I'll never watch.

You basically made a generic bitchy argument that you
could make for just about any established artist at
this stage

You chose to go in on the Roots because you have some
residual Lesson-y bad habits...same ones that had you
talking about how awesome Kreayshawn was as recently
as a year ago (not letting up, sorry)

Picking on the Roots is lamest shit in the world, B,
you're better than this.

You're smart, people like your posts, and you're my
message broad sibling so I'm gonna have gone ahead and
be hard on you, use you as an example, and point out when you
don't shit on other established artist's shitty music

I mean, that "Dipshits" song, for example, is cute and
all but is honestly pretty shitty, and you know that

You still found something good to say about it

You could have done the same with this Roots album

Not really with that
----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

>I mean, that "Dipshits" song, for example, is cute and
>all but is honestly pretty shitty, and you know that

TAKE IT BACK! lol

_
Yo! That’s My Jawn: The Podcast - Available Now!
http://linktr.ee/yothatsmyjawn

Like Brooklyn Whatt said, they just became boring

I loved Game Theory and Rising Down tho.

Haven't cared much for the last two and have no desire to listen to this.

Phrenology will always be weak fuck yall

since it's just a series of single sentences with paragraph breaks between each but still I'm not gonna say you & BK don't have the gist of it in a sentence or two.

I was just having some fun with the Tyson cross-stream while listening to the new album in my headphones as I typed, mostly forgetting it was even on save the 'Black (Tempest)' cut which goes kinda hard and then the Raheem closer with the Regina Spektor-sounding piano bounce since it's so much 'lighter' in tone than the entire album leading up to it.

It's a masterpiece.

I have some issues with the new joint. I thought the last album was the operatic concept piece. There's not enough rappity-rap.I'm tired of all these other rappers sharing billing with thought. The albums have gotten increasingly shorter and this one is like 20 minutes long.

But at this point isn't buying a Roots album a little like going to a restaurant that doesn't have menus? Where you know the chef is gonna do his thing and not your thing? Reminds me of that movie 'Jiru dreams of sushi'. If you want it your way there's always burger king. These grandiose muhfuckas, however; play the shit that THEY like. This ain't a flabby Tyson staying in his corner to avoid a knockout. I don't think that they see themselves as going back to the same well twice.


That's why you see the leap between illadelph and TFA and Rising Down and HIGO. The High brow layering can wear thin tho, but what do you expect from a group whose target audience has always been college kids?

I think the Roots take the same approach to their albums that Quest takes to his deejay gigs.

>It's a masterpiece.
>
>I have some issues with the new joint. I thought the last
>album was the operatic concept piece. There's not enough
>rappity-rap.I'm tired of all these other rappers sharing
>billing with thought. The albums have gotten increasingly
>shorter and this one is like 20 minutes long.
>
>But at this point isn't buying a Roots album a little like
>going to a restaurant that doesn't have menus? Where you know
>the chef is gonna do his thing and not your thing? Reminds me
>of that movie 'Jiru dreams of sushi'. If you want it your way
>there's always burger king. These grandiose muhfuckas,
>however; play the shit that THEY like. This ain't a flabby
>Tyson staying in his corner to avoid a knockout. I don't think
>that they see themselves as going back to the same well twice.
>
if they don't see it, they ain't looking hard enough.
>
>
>That's why you see the leap between illadelph and TFA and
>Rising Down and HIGO.

the former feels like a Carl Lewis broad jump while the latter a bunny-hop.

The High brow layering can wear thin
>tho, but what do you expect from a group whose target audience
>has always been college kids?
>
>I think the Roots take the same approach to their albums that
>Quest takes to his deejay gigs.
>
Quest as a DJ is all about 'effective records', even if this was the most Okayplayery crowd possible in the Filo's or Fluid Tasty Treats days, DJ Quest wouldn't have dropped any Roots joint from the past three albums into the middle of set.
>
>
>
>