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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 03:52 AM

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"The Myth of Black Church Singing/Rockism in Black Music"
Tue Mar-01-05 04:03 AM

  

          

**this post was inspired by fire’s wrongheaded attempt to bestow credibility as a singer on Beyonce (over Joss Stone) by arguing that Yonce had honed her craft in “the black Southern church” while Joss had learned how to sing by imitating records by black singers. Forgive me if my arguments are a bit anemic and sketchy because these days i have neither the time nor the energy to really flesh them out**

Rockism is above all things about mythology. And rocksim’s favorite myth is the idea that rock is “rebel music.” That’s what rock was in the beginning after all: a vehicle for white kids to rage against the world of their parents. And of all their parents values, the one the distrusted the most was commercialism. As a result, rock (and rockist thought) has remained obsessed with “authenticity” – the idea that the music you are hearing is not a commercial product but a true, heartfelt expression that may or may not just happen to make the artist a fortune which they will pretend to be casually disdainful of.

This is the reason that such a huge premium is placed on playing your own instruments and writing your own songs (and if you don’t write your own songs, at least make sure that you “adapted” them from the songs of some Depression-era Negro singer, who you obviously have a lot in common with spiritually).

This is the reason that rockers deify Robert Johnson, an obscure backwoods guitar player who was probably heard by a total 17 people during his short life and elevate him above more accomplished and well-known bluesmen like Leroy Carr and WC Handy.

This is why rockers from suburban New Jersey, Minnesota and Orange County, California insist on talking like early 20th century Okie sharecroppers. Because if you are white, the best way to rebel against your society is to align yourself with the lowest levels of African-American life.

Traditionally, black people in America have never shared this obsession with authenticity. Why would they? Everybody could see that they were black… they didn’t need to go out of their way to prove to anyone that they were oppressed! If any guiding philosophy drove black music in America, it was Keeping ahead of Whitey.

Keeping Ahead of Whitey had been a central tenet of black music since the days in the cotton fields when the n!ggers had to sing in coded spirituals to keep massa out of the loop of what was going on in the Underground (Railroad) and it continued up to the bebop era when a new generation of intellectual jazz players started spitting new forms of musical gobbledygook to confound the (white) jazz mainstream.

Keeping Ahead of Whitey culminated in Soul music, which drew its inspiration from the Black Church. If you wanted to Keep Ahead of Whitey, you couldn’t do much better than to look inward to the Church, a place that was so unremittingly “us” and which traditionally held much fascination and fear in the white imagination.

The Church was a place that was at the center of the black community, and its music was fairly unique, rejecting most of the stylings of American commercial music… of course, it wasn’t long before Whitey discovered that once you could scrub the music clean of some of the more unsettling elements of the Church such as the spirit possession and the angry shouting (whites tend to interpret any instance where blacks raise their voices as “angry”… go figger), they had some pretty cool sounds.

As a result, the Church became the new center of authenticity in American music. We learned that black singers were viewed as more “real” if we could believe that they were plucked out of the choir of the Bethel AME in East Hamhock, Alabama and that they were in essence untainted by commercialism. At the same time, white singers found that they were bestowed with instant authenticity and gravitas when they backed their songs with a bunch of fat black gospel singers in robes (this gimmick eventually filtered back to black musicians, as exemplified best by Robert Kelly… but we’ll get back to that later)

Eventually, the idea of black church singing became just another easily replicable “authenticity”-bestowing gimmick that could be reduced to a bunch of overdramatic riffs, melismas and vibratos.

The whole “i grew up singing in the Church” became a part of the standard credibility card in the utility belt of any black soul/R&B singer worth their salt. But i contend that it’s a load of bullshit.

I don’t doubt that these singers actually grew up going to church, or that they might have even sung in church, but the fact is that at this point in time the majority of black singers are more influenced by radio/MTV/BET than any kind of “pure” church tradition. In other words, they learn to sing “black” the same way their authenticity-seeking white peers do.

Let’s take Beyonce. Now, i know that she is a devout Christian and probably “grew up in the church” (whatever the fuck that means nowadays) but i’ve read/watched a grip of biographical material on her and i haven’t seen anything that indicates the Church played any central role in the formation of her musical identity.

As SoWhat so eloquently pointed out before, the girl has been singing all her life, but her training ground was NOT the church. It was talent shows, and the very careful study of performers in talent shows and of the major pop stars of the day. The entire trajectory of Beyonce/Destiny’s Child was from day one based on getting a record deal and becoming pop stars. Just like Joss Stone.

There are very few contemporary artists who sound like “pure” gospel singers to me… the only ones who readily come to mind are Faith, Kelly Price, and maybe Lil Mo (and is it coincidental that while all of them are respected for their vocal prowess, none of them are particularly successful on the commercial front?)

And to be honest, i wonder about the existence of any “pure” church singing tradition at this point in general. Especially since over the past decade or so, the Church has actually been drawing heavily from radio/MTV/BET in order to reach out to the disaffected youth and halt the rapid “graying” of the Black Church.

Okay, i’ve talked enough. Discuss.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
any chance of erasing joss stone's name from the post?
Mar 01st 2005
1
i know, huh?
Mar 01st 2005
2
in retrospect, it was shouting 'fire' in a crowded theatre.
Mar 01st 2005
128
the shock posts have got to stop man!!
Mar 01st 2005
3
it's not one. matterafact, i was going to post sumthin' similar.
Mar 01st 2005
5
      calling the black church a 'gimmick' is a shock post..
Mar 01st 2005
22
           he ain' do that, tho'.
Mar 01st 2005
28
                How is chorale singing a gimmick? how the FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!????????????
Mar 01st 2005
44
                     calm down, dear.
Mar 01st 2005
48
                          he's not referencing anything cuz he didn't grow up in a
Mar 01st 2005
51
                               u mad?
Mar 01st 2005
55
                               then you should never hold an opinion you're not local to.
Mar 01st 2005
58
                                    there's a big difference betwixt critique & assessing that
Mar 01st 2005
60
                                    i might as well log out forever
Mar 01st 2005
62
                                         haha, word.
Mar 01st 2005
64
                                         word. me too
Mar 01st 2005
89
but she can sing and joss stone can not.
Mar 01st 2005
4
its about the justification people use to say why beyonce is good
Mar 01st 2005
6
i didn't use it as a justification
Mar 01st 2005
46
if all you got out of the post was Yonce vs. Joss...
Mar 01st 2005
7
to be truthful all of that other stuff made me dizzy.
Mar 01st 2005
13
people here have difficulty separating aesthetic from idealogical
Mar 01st 2005
63
that's not relevant.
Mar 01st 2005
8
      it wasn't offered as SKILL PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mar 01st 2005
47
you raise some interesting points and on one hand
Mar 01st 2005
9
pretty much.
Mar 01st 2005
10
I am actually mentally challenged by
Mar 01st 2005
15
and if it was only musical....
Mar 01st 2005
143
      dont man - dont frighten me man
Mar 01st 2005
225
the thing about this keeping ahead of whitey thing though is that
Mar 01st 2005
11
well, yeah...
Mar 01st 2005
21
      RE: well, yeah...
Mar 01st 2005
24
      i'm not talking about the album
Mar 01st 2005
32
      also, this notion that black audiences care little about authenticity
Mar 01st 2005
25
wow, i can't believe i read all that shit
Mar 01st 2005
12
.
Mar 01st 2005
14
pretty much
Mar 01st 2005
16
Jill, Anthony and Legend...
Mar 01st 2005
17
      i think you're boundaries of 'church singing'
Mar 01st 2005
29
i need to sit on this for a few
Mar 01st 2005
18
The problem is that the church wants 'relavancy'
Mar 01st 2005
19
Your Co-Worker is right
Mar 01st 2005
129
Interesting...
Mar 01st 2005
20
Relevance to a church
Mar 01st 2005
30
helluva post
Mar 01st 2005
23
the whole authenticity issue is misleading
Mar 01st 2005
27
there never was a 'pure' popular church sound....
Mar 01st 2005
26
yeah, i was gonna mention that
Mar 01st 2005
31
does D'angelo get a pass then ?
Mar 01st 2005
33
hmmm...
Mar 01st 2005
34
      RE: hmmm...
Mar 01st 2005
35
           i'm not interested in conferring credibility upon any artist
Mar 01st 2005
37
           come on, dangelo isnt THAT great a singer
Mar 01st 2005
40
Let me be the one to say...
Mar 01st 2005
36
i was betting on which asshole would be the first to say this.
Mar 01st 2005
39
      i mean...it needed to be said.
Mar 01st 2005
45
           my anthropological tone
Mar 01st 2005
49
           Yet the whole diatribe is shot in the foot by two sentences:
Mar 01st 2005
52
                i'm actually laughing out loud right now.
Mar 01st 2005
54
                your laughing just drives my point home.
Mar 01st 2005
57
                okay, i'm composed now
Mar 01st 2005
61
                     Who you callin nigga, African?
Mar 01st 2005
72
                          this gets more and more ridiculous.
Mar 01st 2005
75
                               "bash you"? dude, please don't overstate your importance lol
Mar 01st 2005
80
                                    you have the right to hold your own opinions.
Mar 01st 2005
86
           whats wrong with anthropologists though?
Mar 01st 2005
56
                but that was all exploitation-
Mar 01st 2005
74
                     actually, Lomax's work HAS caused some problems.
Mar 01st 2005
76
                     i know, but not all anthropologists are patronising ethnophiles
Mar 01st 2005
78
                          alot of anthropologists read books instead of doing field studies
Mar 01st 2005
88
                               not good ones, and anyway, neither method is a perfect gauge
Mar 01st 2005
91
                     Post of the day
Mar 01st 2005
204
did u attend a black american church while growing up?
Mar 01st 2005
38
LOL i was totally waiting for this.
Mar 01st 2005
41
      i did respond, NIGGER
Mar 01st 2005
42
           no you didn't.
Mar 01st 2005
43
                did you grow up in an African American Christian Church or not?
Mar 01st 2005
50
                what does my background have to do with it.
Mar 01st 2005
53
                     RE: what does my background have to do with it.
Mar 01st 2005
59
                     you gettin pretty tresvanty here
Mar 01st 2005
66
                          RE: you gettin pretty tresvanty here
Mar 01st 2005
81
                               okay, you are taking this post SO far left field
Mar 01st 2005
90
                               no i'm not, u just won't admit youre wrong
Mar 01st 2005
104
                               lemme me just laugh at this
Mar 01st 2005
121
                                    what's so funny?
Mar 01st 2005
168
                                         what if spirit was plural ?
Mar 01st 2005
185
                     she has a pertinent point, doe...
Mar 01st 2005
65
                          so i guess you're assuming
Mar 01st 2005
67
                          not tyrnna bring up your personal stuff....
Mar 01st 2005
142
                               damn, you must really think of me as
Mar 01st 2005
144
                                    i deal with specific issues somewhere else....
Mar 01st 2005
150
                                         noticed how i put quotes around 'pure' gospel
Mar 01st 2005
161
                                              jeez, man...if its not a real criteria, then.....
Mar 01st 2005
167
                          he's been to church though
Mar 01st 2005
68
                          uh... how do you know i didn't grow up in church?
Mar 01st 2005
69
                               in africa, yes. in african america, no.
Mar 01st 2005
84
                          i love live music but that all sounds like hokum
Mar 01st 2005
70
                          i saw the Blues Brothers-
Mar 01st 2005
77
                          i saw sister act 1 AND 2
Mar 01st 2005
83
                               oh happy day.
Mar 01st 2005
85
                          but so what?
Mar 01st 2005
                               you took the post right out of my mouth...
Mar 01st 2005
125
                               ::: sigh :::
Mar 01st 2005
153
                                    you're off-base.
Mar 01st 2005
158
                                         peep:
Mar 01st 2005
170
                i knew this would happen...........
Mar 01st 2005
107
it's more non-sequiturs than rae' up in this piece.
Mar 01st 2005
71
yeah
Mar 01st 2005
73
      i was referring to the replies (but yeeuh, likewise).
Mar 01st 2005
79
           its getting quite ugly
Mar 01st 2005
87
                i saw a fight between two matronly samoan women at church
Mar 01st 2005
99
                     i saw two snails roll over each other til their shells cracked open
Mar 01st 2005
101
I always had the idea that the Black Church was/is...
Mar 01st 2005
82
i never said the church had NO influence
Mar 01st 2005
92
black music culture in america is a MYTH
Mar 01st 2005
95
Interesting Post
Mar 01st 2005
93
this post hasnt a hope in hell of going anywhere LOL
Mar 01st 2005
94
it's been too hung up on the yonce
Mar 01st 2005
97
just as an aside-
Mar 01st 2005
96
interesting...
Mar 01st 2005
98
and it's interesting to note...
Mar 01st 2005
102
that's the what now?
Mar 01st 2005
108
where did gerald's father grow up?
Mar 01st 2005
110
so you dont need to actually be reared in church, its all just hereditar
Mar 01st 2005
112
where the fuck did i say hereditary?
Mar 01st 2005
116
hence the 'just as an aside', dearest
Mar 01st 2005
117
this was VERY obvious a few years ago...
Mar 01st 2005
177
Niggers, I grew up in church and I agree w/Afkap.
Mar 01st 2005
100
how much has the advent of music videos
Mar 01st 2005
105
Whitney has everything to do w/it.
Mar 01st 2005
111
i've thought that also of whitney-
Mar 01st 2005
127
      Mary...
Mar 01st 2005
134
she was the first thang come to mind while readin this post
Mar 01st 2005
221
she still got it though..
Mar 01st 2005
106
hmmm.
Mar 01st 2005
114
      maybe that is WHY DC was formed but what the hell does
Mar 01st 2005
123
           you know what though?
Mar 01st 2005
126
                RE: you know what though?
Mar 01st 2005
131
                     this is telling:
Mar 01st 2005
137
                          RE: this is telling:
Mar 01st 2005
147
                               is that what this is? you think we're attacking Yonce?
Mar 01st 2005
151
so you're saying singing in church didn't inform her singing?
Mar 01st 2005
109
yup.
Mar 01st 2005
120
folks didnt understand
Mar 01st 2005
113
so they only should've showed beyonce in church
Mar 01st 2005
115
Marvin's biggest influence was not church
Mar 01st 2005
118
RE: Marvin's biggest influence was not church
Mar 01st 2005
135
      technically, he didn't grow up in 'the Black Church'
Mar 01st 2005
139
           actually
Mar 01st 2005
222
                really?
Mar 01st 2005
230
RE: so they only should've showed beyonce in church
Mar 01st 2005
124
      RE: so they only should've showed beyonce in church
Mar 01st 2005
141
           naw.
Mar 01st 2005
155
as did i
Mar 01st 2005
136
thank you
Mar 01st 2005
140
'niggers?' s'wrong with you, man? jeez
Mar 01st 2005
146
      church cred is to R&B as street cred is to hip-hop.
Mar 01st 2005
159
           is that what all this babbling is about?!?!?
Mar 01st 2005
160
           that's exactly what it's about, Key.
Mar 01st 2005
163
           sadly, yes
Mar 01st 2005
166
           beat me to it
Mar 01st 2005
173
           that is not what my original assertion even ALLUDED to
Mar 01st 2005
176
                ...that was for Torez...which is why i replied to him, not you.
Mar 01st 2005
184
dog I born & raised in GA
Mar 01st 2005
103
Regardless of where they got their chops...
Mar 01st 2005
119
the point is not about Joss vs. Beyonce
Mar 01st 2005
122
i just want my name to be archived that i was here durin'
Mar 01st 2005
130
block arrives lol
Mar 01st 2005
226
I think it's a bit inaccurate to
Mar 01st 2005
132
hmmm
Mar 01st 2005
133
forget about how i phrased certain things
Mar 01st 2005
138
case by case
Mar 01st 2005
156
here they do
Mar 01st 2005
145
      What you talkin bout
Mar 01st 2005
157
           the obligatory mention of the church background by YT
Mar 01st 2005
162
                gotcha
Mar 01st 2005
217
I thought I remember reading or hearing somewhere from
Mar 01st 2005
148
hey stranger!
Mar 01st 2005
154
Now THIS is a good AFKAP post
Mar 01st 2005
149
you know what
Mar 01st 2005
152
*******so everyone can shutup)(***********************
Mar 01st 2005
164
and this proves what?
Mar 01st 2005
165
      that your contention:
Mar 01st 2005
169
           this is a bunch of PR material
Mar 01st 2005
171
                to prove your point you need evidence
Mar 01st 2005
174
                dude
Mar 01st 2005
178
                     afkap has led all of yall astray about my assertion
Mar 01st 2005
180
                     ur assertion and all past posts aside
Mar 01st 2005
183
                     no i dont agree with him
Mar 01st 2005
188
                          u are making me tear my hair out
Mar 01st 2005
192
                          RE: u are making me tear my hair out
Mar 01st 2005
205
                               I DIDNT SAY YOU DID! all im saying is
Mar 01st 2005
207
                          lol@the vanity
Mar 01st 2005
193
                               HA!
Mar 01st 2005
223
                     but this post isnt about you
Mar 01st 2005
189
                          watch tv instead of watching me
Mar 01st 2005
196
                     they didn't read it then, they won't read it now.
Mar 01st 2005
181
                really though.
Mar 01st 2005
175
RE: The Myth of Black Church Singing/Rockism in Black Music
Mar 01st 2005
172
LOL
Mar 01st 2005
179
Ding-ding-ding!!!
Mar 01st 2005
210
End of post
Mar 01st 2005
228
fuck this post
Mar 01st 2005
182
my dick is hard
Mar 01st 2005
187
      you are not right!
Mar 01st 2005
190
i adore this post
Mar 01st 2005
186
quick points
Mar 01st 2005
191
i REALLY wanna talk about this in another post:
Mar 01st 2005
194
word
Mar 01st 2005
195
yup. 179 i fell into that trap
Mar 01st 2005
197
pls whatever you do AFKAP
Mar 01st 2005
227
new OKP mandate: all plat posts need a re-cap like this.
Mar 01st 2005
199
that's precisely what this post was intended as.
Mar 01st 2005
238
good break down
Mar 01st 2005
224
.
Mar 01st 2005
198
don't be scared ! it's not like you live in
Mar 01st 2005
200
      nah, im done - see reply 58!
Mar 01st 2005
203
Captain Save a Jo
Mar 01st 2005
201
This is true of rappers too
Mar 01st 2005
202
my thoughts...and some perspective
Mar 01st 2005
206
thanks... that was some valuable input.
Mar 01st 2005
220
This is a great post
Mar 01st 2005
208
Can we get a Suggested Listening list for this post?
Mar 01st 2005
209
i contribute
Mar 01st 2005
211
The problem i see with this list
Mar 01st 2005
212
      i'm not doing no more expounding in this post
Mar 01st 2005
215
i went through the post.
Mar 01st 2005
214
      last point
Mar 01st 2005
216
This post needs Jesus.
Mar 01st 2005
213
jesus didn't grow up in the blk church
Mar 01st 2005
218
      ;op
Mar 01st 2005
219
You're waaaaay off in your last statement.
Mar 01st 2005
229
WOW
Mar 01st 2005
231
He's not way off at all.
Mar 01st 2005
232
      Complete Idiocy.
Mar 01st 2005
233
           Complete Idiocy is correct
Mar 01st 2005
236
                You on crack.
Mar 01st 2005
237
Who gives a fuck?
Mar 01st 2005
234
Uhhh....Stormfront.com?
Mar 01st 2005
235
ARCHIVE IT.
Mar 03rd 2005
239

GumDrops
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26088 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 03:54 AM

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1. "any chance of erasing joss stone's name from the post?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

it inspires hysteria.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 03:55 AM

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2. "i know, huh?"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

hmmm... i'm tempted to do that. but fuckit... let it stand.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Jehan
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Tue Mar-01-05 07:17 AM

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128. "in retrospect, it was shouting 'fire' in a crowded theatre."
In response to Reply # 1


          




|Fliteweight|

  

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love2000
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Tue Mar-01-05 04:00 AM

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3. "the shock posts have got to stop man!!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


what's gotten into you?

  

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Jehan
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Tue Mar-01-05 04:05 AM

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5. "it's not one. matterafact, i was going to post sumthin' similar."
In response to Reply # 3


          




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love2000
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Tue Mar-01-05 04:30 AM

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22. "calling the black church a 'gimmick' is a shock post.."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          


in my opinion at least..

  

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Jehan
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Tue Mar-01-05 04:49 AM

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28. "he ain' do that, tho'."
In response to Reply # 22
Tue Mar-01-05 04:51 AM

          

he referenced

(a) white mainstream vocalists' use of stereotypically-imagined blak gospel choirs, and

(b) blak vocalists' brandishing of their third soprano sunday status

as certificates of authenticity, being the gimmicks, not the church itself.


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fire
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Tue Mar-01-05 05:34 AM

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44. "How is chorale singing a gimmick? how the FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!????????????"
In response to Reply # 28


          


________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

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www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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Jehan
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Tue Mar-01-05 05:41 AM

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48. "calm down, dear."
In response to Reply # 44


          

he said this:

>At the same time, white singers found that
>they were bestowed with instant authenticity and gravitas
>when they backed their songs with a bunch of fat black
>gospel singers in robes (this gimmick eventually filtered
>back to black musicians, as exemplified best by Robert
>Kelly… but we’ll get back to that later)

and not this:

"blak gospel choirs in any/all dynamics are gimmicks".

imsayin', he's referencing neither mahalia nor take 6.


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fire
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Tue Mar-01-05 05:48 AM

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51. "he's not referencing anything cuz he didn't grow up in a"
In response to Reply # 48


          

black american church. it's like me studying buddhism from afar & moving to china & all of a sudden discounting those people's stance on their culture that grew up in it cuz i read a bunch of books & decided to join a buddhist temple there.......then proceeding to tell them what they should be thinking instead of what they feel..

________________________________________
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 05:51 AM

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55. "u mad?"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          


_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Jehan
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58. "then you should never hold an opinion you're not local to."
In response to Reply # 51


          

unless of course, it's applause.

by this token, most posters here should never critique london's brokenbeat scene, early-nineties g-funk, east coast Hip-Hop, or any jazz pre-1950.


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fire
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60. "there's a big difference betwixt critique & assessing that"
In response to Reply # 58


          

a young black female singer is surely not influenced by what she said she was influenced by and by what everyone around her says she was influenced by. that's like me releasing an album & saying i was influence by pfunk&prince & afkap saying i was influenced by willie nelson. same fucking thing.

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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GumDrops
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62. "i might as well log out forever"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          


  

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Jehan
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64. "haha, word."
In response to Reply # 62


          




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afrobongo
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:27 AM

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89. "word. me too"
In response to Reply # 62


          

______________________________

*TWINNING*


  

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habitual line stepper
Member since Jan 15th 2005
1444 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 04:04 AM

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4. "but she can sing and joss stone can not."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i don't understand what is going on here.

We Been Too Strong For Too Long

****3*3* Is A Cowardly Spic...$$$DON-HATE$$$

  

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GumDrops
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6. "its about the justification people use to say why beyonce is good"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

and joss is not.

  

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fire
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Tue Mar-01-05 05:36 AM

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46. "i didn't use it as a justification"
In response to Reply # 6


          

i stated that joss mimicked black people in general & afkap stated that beyonce mimicked mariah carey & star search.

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 04:07 AM

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7. "if all you got out of the post was Yonce vs. Joss..."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

i can't do nothin' for ya man (c) F. Flav

maybe i really SHOULD edit Joss's name out of the post, since it looks like that's the shit everybody's gonna focus on

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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habitual line stepper
Member since Jan 15th 2005
1444 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 04:16 AM

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13. "to be truthful all of that other stuff made me dizzy."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

i replied the way i did to be annoying.

We Been Too Strong For Too Long

****3*3* Is A Cowardly Spic...$$$DON-HATE$$$

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:04 AM

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63. "people here have difficulty separating aesthetic from idealogical"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

see also: ...ah, n/m

but it's an uphill struggle

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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Jehan
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8. "that's not relevant."
In response to Reply # 4


          

it's the basis of a vocalist's tenure in junior pentecostal choirs shakily offered as irrefutable evidence of their skill that's being challenged.


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fire
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47. "it wasn't offered as SKILL PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
In response to Reply # 8


          

it was offered up because yonce's credibility was being credited to mariah fucking carey & ed mcmahon.

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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Boy Wonder
Member since Oct 31st 2003
5055 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 04:08 AM

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9. "you raise some interesting points and on one hand"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I agree with you but on the other im actually scared as to what this means lol.

Basically YT manages to figure, co opt and subvert black/african american musical expression for projection back to ourselves so we have a false understanding of the original meaning. Am I right in understanding this?

You know Fire and you are gonna kick off again right?
_____________________________

BREAKBEAT PRODUCTIONS (BBP) PRESENTS: MARLEY RIDDIM E.P

COMING SOON ON AWAKENING RECORDINGS....(2nd QUARTER 2005)

Uh oh they gave us a soundclick page....
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/breakbeatproductions.htm

How beautiful is Jill Scott? The answer: Unfathomable.

"If I dont like it I dont like/it dont mean that im hating" - Common

Top 10 albums I heard from 2004:



**1. KEANE - HOPES AND FEARS**
(comments coming later)

2. JILL SCOTT - BEAUTIFULLY HUMAN
(comments coming later)

3. KLASHNEKOFF - THE SAGAS OF....
(comments coming later)

4. TEEDRA MOSES - COMPLEX SIMPLICITY
(comments coming later)

5. ASH - MELTDOWN
(comments coming later)

6. MURS - MURS 3:16 THE 9TH EDITION
(comments coming later)

7. KANYE WEST - COLLEGE DROPOUT
(comments coming later)

8. RAPHAEL SADDIQ - AS RAY RAY
(comments coming later)

9. EMBRACE - OUT OF NOTHING
(comments coming later)

10. THE KILLERS - HOT FUSS
(comments coming later)



5 that nearly made it to the big 10:

1. Nas -Streets Disciple
2. Van Hunt - Van Hunt
3. Ghostface - The Pretty Toney LP
4. The Roots - Tipping Point
5. R.Kelly - Happy People/You Saved Me

Honourable Mentions (good music released in 2004 in no particular order):

Estelle - The 18th Day
Dizzee Rascal - Showtime
Dead Prez - RBG
Secret Machines - Now Here Is Nowhere
Mos Def - The New Danger
Usher - Confessions
Brandy - Afrodisiac
Razorlight - Up All Night
The Music - Welcome To The North
Talib Kweli - Beautiful Struggle
De La Soul - The Grind Date
Kelis - Tasty
The Zutons - Who Killed The Zutons?
Anthony Hamilton - Comin' From Where I'm From
Norah Jones - Feels Like Home (SE)
RJD2 - Since I Last Spoke
Pete Rock - Soul Survivor 2
*newly added* Manic St Preachers - Lifeblood
*newly added* Interpol -Antics
*newly added* The Prodigy - Always Outnumbered, Never Outgunned

Currently reading:
The Pathology of Eurocentrism - Charles Wm. Ephraim

UHURU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Red, Black and F****** Green For Life.

_____________________________
patiently waiting for the Pumpkins to come back...

http://breakbeatproductions.blogspot.com

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 04:13 AM

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10. "pretty much."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

you can also read it as "the whole American music scene (and by extension the scenes that emulate it) is a big minstrel show"

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Boy Wonder
Member since Oct 31st 2003
5055 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 04:20 AM

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15. "I am actually mentally challenged by"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

this post - thank you AFKAP. I feel like ima go to the library lol.
_____________________________

BREAKBEAT PRODUCTIONS (BBP) PRESENTS: MARLEY RIDDIM E.P

COMING SOON ON AWAKENING RECORDINGS....(2nd QUARTER 2005)

Uh oh they gave us a soundclick page....
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/breakbeatproductions.htm

How beautiful is Jill Scott? The answer: Unfathomable.

"If I dont like it I dont like/it dont mean that im hating" - Common

Top 10 albums I heard from 2004:



**1. KEANE - HOPES AND FEARS**
(comments coming later)

2. JILL SCOTT - BEAUTIFULLY HUMAN
(comments coming later)

3. KLASHNEKOFF - THE SAGAS OF....
(comments coming later)

4. TEEDRA MOSES - COMPLEX SIMPLICITY
(comments coming later)

5. ASH - MELTDOWN
(comments coming later)

6. MURS - MURS 3:16 THE 9TH EDITION
(comments coming later)

7. KANYE WEST - COLLEGE DROPOUT
(comments coming later)

8. RAPHAEL SADDIQ - AS RAY RAY
(comments coming later)

9. EMBRACE - OUT OF NOTHING
(comments coming later)

10. THE KILLERS - HOT FUSS
(comments coming later)



5 that nearly made it to the big 10:

1. Nas -Streets Disciple
2. Van Hunt - Van Hunt
3. Ghostface - The Pretty Toney LP
4. The Roots - Tipping Point
5. R.Kelly - Happy People/You Saved Me

Honourable Mentions (good music released in 2004 in no particular order):

Estelle - The 18th Day
Dizzee Rascal - Showtime
Dead Prez - RBG
Secret Machines - Now Here Is Nowhere
Mos Def - The New Danger
Usher - Confessions
Brandy - Afrodisiac
Razorlight - Up All Night
The Music - Welcome To The North
Talib Kweli - Beautiful Struggle
De La Soul - The Grind Date
Kelis - Tasty
The Zutons - Who Killed The Zutons?
Anthony Hamilton - Comin' From Where I'm From
Norah Jones - Feels Like Home (SE)
RJD2 - Since I Last Spoke
Pete Rock - Soul Survivor 2
*newly added* Manic St Preachers - Lifeblood
*newly added* Interpol -Antics
*newly added* The Prodigy - Always Outnumbered, Never Outgunned

Currently reading:
The Pathology of Eurocentrism - Charles Wm. Ephraim

UHURU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Red, Black and F****** Green For Life.

_____________________________
patiently waiting for the Pumpkins to come back...

http://breakbeatproductions.blogspot.com

  

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afrobongo
Charter member
33968 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 08:25 AM

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143. "and if it was only musical...."
In response to Reply # 9


          

>I agree with you but on the other im actually scared as to
> Basically YT manages to figure, co opt and subvert
>black/african american musical expression for projection
>back to ourselves so we have a false understanding of the
>original meaning. Am I right in understanding this?

but it's not.
______________________________

*TWINNING*


  

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Boy Wonder
Member since Oct 31st 2003
5055 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 02:05 PM

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225. "dont man - dont frighten me man"
In response to Reply # 143


  

          

dont remind me even - i wanna sleep tonight lol
_____________________________

BREAKBEAT PRODUCTIONS (BBP) PRESENTS: MARLEY RIDDIM E.P

COMING SOON ON AWAKENING RECORDINGS....(2nd QUARTER 2005)

Uh oh they gave us a soundclick page....
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/breakbeatproductions.htm

How beautiful is Jill Scott? The answer: Unfathomable.

"If I dont like it I dont like/it dont mean that im hating" - Common

Top 10 albums I heard from 2004:



**1. KEANE - HOPES AND FEARS**
(comments coming later)

2. JILL SCOTT - BEAUTIFULLY HUMAN
(comments coming later)

3. KLASHNEKOFF - THE SAGAS OF....
(comments coming later)

4. TEEDRA MOSES - COMPLEX SIMPLICITY
(comments coming later)

5. ASH - MELTDOWN
(comments coming later)

6. MURS - MURS 3:16 THE 9TH EDITION
(comments coming later)

7. KANYE WEST - COLLEGE DROPOUT
(comments coming later)

8. RAPHAEL SADDIQ - AS RAY RAY
(comments coming later)

9. EMBRACE - OUT OF NOTHING
(comments coming later)

10. THE KILLERS - HOT FUSS
(comments coming later)



5 that nearly made it to the big 10:

1. Nas -Streets Disciple
2. Van Hunt - Van Hunt
3. Ghostface - The Pretty Toney LP
4. The Roots - Tipping Point
5. R.Kelly - Happy People/You Saved Me

Honourable Mentions (good music released in 2004 in no particular order):

Estelle - The 18th Day
Dizzee Rascal - Showtime
Dead Prez - RBG
Secret Machines - Now Here Is Nowhere
Mos Def - The New Danger
Usher - Confessions
Brandy - Afrodisiac
Razorlight - Up All Night
The Music - Welcome To The North
Talib Kweli - Beautiful Struggle
De La Soul - The Grind Date
Kelis - Tasty
The Zutons - Who Killed The Zutons?
Anthony Hamilton - Comin' From Where I'm From
Norah Jones - Feels Like Home (SE)
RJD2 - Since I Last Spoke
Pete Rock - Soul Survivor 2
*newly added* Manic St Preachers - Lifeblood
*newly added* Interpol -Antics
*newly added* The Prodigy - Always Outnumbered, Never Outgunned

Currently reading:
The Pathology of Eurocentrism - Charles Wm. Ephraim

UHURU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Red, Black and F****** Green For Life.

_____________________________
patiently waiting for the Pumpkins to come back...

http://breakbeatproductions.blogspot.com

  

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GumDrops
Charter member
26088 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 04:15 AM

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11. "the thing about this keeping ahead of whitey thing though is that"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Mar-01-05 04:16 AM

  

          

the black face of soul was never replaced by a white one. yeah you had the odd white soul singer making a name and doing well, but they were never seen as being properly 'authentic' by anyone except the masses (who black or white dont care for issues of authenticity either way, they just care if they like something or not). soul has always been seen as a black artists' game, much like hip hop (despite there being white musicians along the way).

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 04:29 AM

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21. "well, yeah..."
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

>the black face of soul was never replaced by a white one.
>yeah you had the odd white soul singer making a name and
>doing well, but they were never seen as being properly
>'authentic' by anyone

right… i think with Soul, it got to a place where the essence could really not be co-opted because it was so intrinsically tied to the heart of black American life. But even then, you had a few singers who were eager to let you know that they grew up in “small towns” like Memphis (because in the popular Faulkner-nourished imagination, “southern” and “black” are almost the same thing) and so they are **almost** down with that black essence

except the masses (who black or white
>dont care for issues of authenticity either way, they just
>care if they like something or not).

I think that the masses DO care about authenticity… that’s why even people on the bus still view artists who write and play their own material as being “realer” than someone who makes shamelessly commercial product.

If we didn’t care about authenticity, then white rappers wouldn’t still need black sponsors (Eminem/Dre, Bubba Sparxx/Timbo) in order to be accepted by both black AND white audiences. And people would not have made fun of Vanilla Ice the way they did, because let’s face it… “ice ice baby” was a good record. People just had a hard time wrapping their heads around it because something about the guy did not seem “real” (as opposed to 3rd Bass, who never forgot to remind you that they danced in the Latin Quarter back in the day and had black girlfriends)



_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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bassndaplace
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11692 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 04:43 AM

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24. "RE: well, yeah..."
In response to Reply # 21


          

>because let’s face it… “ice
>ice baby” was a good record. People just had a hard time
>wrapping their heads around it because something about the
>guy did not seem “real”

Him being disengenius had little relevance...c'mon af that album is some of the most repugnant s**t to hit my ear drums eva...

**************************************

www.scottstewartphotos.com

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 04:55 AM

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32. "i'm not talking about the album"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

"ice ice baby" the song was not bad

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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GumDrops
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26088 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 04:43 AM

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25. "also, this notion that black audiences care little about authenticity"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

isnt entirely true. authenticty as an issue in hip hop has always been as paramount as in indie/rock.

  

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Iltigo
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Tue Mar-01-05 04:15 AM

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12. "wow, i can't believe i read all that shit"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

for the sake fo argument, where do jil scott, anthony hamilton and say john legend fit into the pantheon of "chu'ch sanga's"


i have personally never felt that 'yonce had a church voice. her voice was a bit too sweet and polished for chu'ch. like it had been honed by someone and not blindly encouraged by shouts of "go'n girl! sang ya song chile"

anthony hamilton and john legen on the other hand have a gruffnes to their voices that would indicate that chu'ch feeling. when you listen to them you think...."damn they need to be in somebody's choir".

i personally put joss and 'yonce in the same category of well trained polished voices of pop music. not exactly gruff enough for the "chu'ch" sound


but thats just me...

return to your home citizens

madagascar titties- (c) phontiggalo the rap jiggalo

I would never, ever hit a woman....but i'll beat a bitch (c) wifey

________________________________________
It's A Boy and his name is MILES KHALIL YOUNG

  

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GumDrops
Charter member
26088 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 04:17 AM

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14. "."
In response to Reply # 12
Tue Mar-01-05 04:25 AM

  

          

.

  

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t510
Charter member
100002 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 04:21 AM

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16. "pretty much"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

nothing about the yonce screams church to me whatsoever

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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84244 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 04:23 AM

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17. "Jill, Anthony and Legend..."
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

Jill doesn’t sound like a proper church singer to me… she’s a bit more jazz-tinged, which is not surprising since the majority of the Philly sound is inspired by the more “secular” soul sound of the early 70s

(i tend to bifurcate soul the same way i do the Civil Rights movement: 1960s = church/gospel-based/pacifist; 1970s = Black Panthers/jazz-fusion based/”angry” and explorative)

Anthony Hamilton… i don’t know what to say about him because i really can’t take him seriously at all. There was a period that he used to walk around wearing a trucker hat that said “ACTOR” on it, and i thought that was fitting because that is really how i see him. The dude is trying five hard © StacyAdams if you ask me… he IS a good singer, though he kinda represents what i was talking about black singers trying to “sound black”…

John Legend… hmmm. Something about him sounds authentically churchy to me, but at the same time his vocal approach makes me think that he learned to sing by studying Stevie Wonder’s more pop-oriented records much more than from the choir

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Torez
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19262 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 04:50 AM

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29. "i think you're boundaries of 'church singing'"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

might be too narrow.

again, the SOUND of it doesn't make church singing. the FEELING behind it, the emotionalism, the unfettered wailing or the brassy shouting is prolly more an indication of what a 'church singer' might sound like. Whatever the tone or heaviness of a person's voice sounds like, it can be adapted to the church sound. other influences can even be added to it. (see my orignal post about where i think 'gospel' comes from.)

that doesn't mean its not church, doe.

church can fluctuate and still be church, in my estimation.

also, folks can be secular and still be church, too. every prominent black singer in the last thirty years has prolly struggled with the pull of the secular against the teachings of the church. if al green sings about bonin' another woman, is he now NOT CHURCH.

not to me, given how many folks i know IN CHURCH that be bonin' folks they shouldn't.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The man of faith who has never experienced doubt is not a man of faith

  

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thebigfunk
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Tue Mar-01-05 04:23 AM

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18. "i need to sit on this for a few"
In response to Reply # 0


          

*wheels turning, wheels turning*

-thebigfunk
homepage.mac.com/thebigfunk/

-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

  

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Errol Walton Barrow
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
6186 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 04:24 AM

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19. "The problem is that the church wants 'relavancy'"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and what that is, is church folk sangin their ass off over beats now.

But when you listen to 'old' gospel, it wasn't just riffing for the sake of riffing, it was that certain notes, certain words would get accentuated. Nowadays, singers would stretch out EVERY note, and that could have only come from television.

When did this happen tho? Disco?

My co-worker actually blames Stevie, and that people started to mimic his singing instead of ol' church singers.

-------
http://adevotedappraisal.tumblr.com - Essays, reviews, short stories and free writes on music, film and life around us.

  

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Queal Jay
Member since May 22nd 2002
2412 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 07:21 AM

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129. "Your Co-Worker is right"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

>My co-worker actually blames Stevie, and that people started
>to mimic his singing instead of ol' church singers.

Stevie has ruined and will continue to ruin generations of singers. Everyone tries to emulate the licks only, but they forget the context, the setup, the subtlety. Stevie has runs out the ass, but he can still sing a song straight without melisma...well, he used to anyway. Now even he's become a bad imitation of himself when he performs live.

http://www.facebook.com/marquealjordan
http://twitter.com/MarquealJordan
www.marquealjordan.com

  

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bassndaplace
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Tue Mar-01-05 04:29 AM

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20. "Interesting..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

I wish I had more time right now...I'll try and catch up later...

**************************************

www.scottstewartphotos.com

  

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Raheelo
Member since Feb 28th 2005
19 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 04:52 AM

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30. "Relevance to a church"
In response to Reply # 20


          

... Now, he said John Legend and Anthony sound gruff enough to be in a choir... No doubt. But then Beyonce can't cuz her voice is too polished... Prob cuz she's been more trained/ whateva... But I think there's a misconception about R&B bein mostly femme oriented... But the females in the R&B stuff right now are soundin like to much hip-hop or pop. But with Legend, Hamilton, other guys in it right now... it feels more connected to the past of em.

However- I agree wit AFKAP... cuz a true church singer lookin back at the church for her soul in the music... its less controlled and more powerful... alot of what the singers used 2 do back in the day. And i think thats what singin should be, alot more emotion then it has now.
But Beyonce is polished. She doesnt have that emotion that alotta people used to have. SHe doesnt have her voice growlin... shes a pretty good singer, but she hasnt grew up church singin... You can see it in the way she sings.

The thesis to a minimalized hypothesis.

One that grows.
More substance, information.
The deeper you go, the more you have to listen.

Auriz Deep, J-Deep

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
18637 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 04:40 AM

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23. "helluva post"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

white rebellion (rock)
need for authenticity
affinity to black people
projection of authenticity onto black church
black people unwittingly buying into rockist projection

is that your argument?

anyway. only thing I have to say, is that the whole authenticity thing is so mangled... for instance if you look at authenticity in hiphop, or the very idea of "soul,"... or does it seem straightforward to your eyes?

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 04:44 AM

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27. "the whole authenticity issue is misleading"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

It would be a lot easier if people just acknowledged that the vast majority of the music you hear (if not all of it) is commercial product, unless it’s a field recording or something

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Torez
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Tue Mar-01-05 04:44 AM

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26. "there never was a 'pure' popular church sound...."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

that had impact on larger culture. the PURE stuff was practiced down in sanctified churches out in the country south. it sounds more like slave work songs that anything else. most folks in america have never heard it.

the typical "gospel sound" that people like james cleveland and thomas dorsey popularized was a blending of sounds from the jump. i agree that that sound has been co-opted by america, but as a cat from the south that still hears sanctified music, my estimation is what america calls gospel is to 'real' gospel what mc hammer rap was to 'real' hip hop.

the only real HOLDOVER from that original gospel sound was the 'rough, passionate, earnestness' of the singing. the music itself is more blues and soul than that original church style.

on a certain level, there is a chicken/egg dynamic to this argument. one could argue that i've gone so far back into the history of black church music that the stuff i'm talking about isn't gospel. its pre-gospel, and therefore doesn't refute the initial point.(fair enough)

but honestly, i HEAR the church in beyonce's singing (especially on I'D RATHER BE WITH YOU) if she tones it down for commercial success, that doesn't refute her church upbringing. and if her music doesn't reflect the church teachings, that doesn't either. (jodeci is all from the chruch, but there lyrics hardly ever reflected the over teachings of the black church. same with al green and mary j. blige for various periods.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The man of faith who has never experienced doubt is not a man of faith

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 04:53 AM

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31. "yeah, i was gonna mention that"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

the conventional "gospel" sound that most of us are accustomed to is actually a very deliberate (and originally very controversial) blues hybrid pioneered by ex-bluesmen like Thomas Dorsey, but i was gonna save that for later

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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zionites16
Member since Oct 09th 2002
9836 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 05:02 AM

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33. "does D'angelo get a pass then ?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I know you are talking about females but really, on Brown Sugar and Voodoodoes he show enough 'gospel' church styles and authenticity to be considered true.

He did sing in the church right ?

//////

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 05:05 AM

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34. "hmmm..."
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

methinks you might be misinterpreting the point of the post, man...

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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zionites16
Member since Oct 09th 2002
9836 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 05:17 AM

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35. "RE: hmmm..."
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

>And to be honest, i wonder about the existence of any “pure”

not really. when you wrote this in the end it made me think of D' and his church upbringing, that's all. You mention Kelly and Faith, and I think D' still has more pureness in his voice, harmonies, and music than those two do in their hands.


//////

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 05:25 AM

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37. "i'm not interested in conferring credibility upon any artist"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

i'm just exploring the philosophies on which this credibility is based

so no... i don't "give a pass" to D'Angelo. i'm not "giving a pass" to anybody, really.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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GumDrops
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26088 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 05:27 AM

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40. "come on, dangelo isnt THAT great a singer"
In response to Reply # 35
Tue Mar-01-05 05:27 AM

  

          

edit:
or rather, he IS that great a singer, but his voice isnt as great as his skills as a singer.

  

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tha8thjewel
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Tue Mar-01-05 05:20 AM

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36. "Let me be the one to say..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

...that as an outsider who did not grow up in the Black church, I doubt that you have the authority to speak on this matter. To the point of substance, I'll defer to Torez's statements.

<-- Slicka than ya average.

"It's a war in the streets tonight
And nobody's really feelin alright
I got a blunt for my chronic
A juice for my tonic
I know now
That I'm feelin right if it goes down"
-- Nas, "War"

"perky breasts go with anything....its like the black shoe."
-- my nigga my bruh, OKP thashadow

"I've spoken to women that said they deserved men that made 6 digits, when I asked what they were bringin' to the table, they ran their hands down their malformed bodies, like that's enough."
--OKP Grand_Royal, on chickenheads


"Alphas are that good high...stick witcha, you can't shake that shit...like heroin. You'll always be addicted."
--OKP novembersgift

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 05:26 AM

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39. "i was betting on which asshole would be the first to say this."
In response to Reply # 36


  

          


_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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tha8thjewel
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Tue Mar-01-05 05:35 AM

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45. "i mean...it needed to be said."
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

i mean, because on some level, in reading what you posted, you approached the Black church like an anthropologist investigating a new phenomenon, whether you can cop to that or not. and on some level it takes someone steeped in the tradition to be able to adequately and accurately critique it.

<-- Slicka than ya average.

"It's a war in the streets tonight
And nobody's really feelin alright
I got a blunt for my chronic
A juice for my tonic
I know now
That I'm feelin right if it goes down"
-- Nas, "War"

"perky breasts go with anything....its like the black shoe."
-- my nigga my bruh, OKP thashadow

"I've spoken to women that said they deserved men that made 6 digits, when I asked what they were bringin' to the table, they ran their hands down their malformed bodies, like that's enough."
--OKP Grand_Royal, on chickenheads


"Alphas are that good high...stick witcha, you can't shake that shit...like heroin. You'll always be addicted."
--OKP novembersgift

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 05:42 AM

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49. "my anthropological tone"
In response to Reply # 45
Tue Mar-01-05 05:44 AM

  

          

was for the sake of objectivity

notice that i never explicitly referenced myself as black in the post... that's because i hate racial discourse that have the tone of "what you white folks don't understand about *us* is..." (see the current Ego Trip Race-o-Rama series on VH1, for instance)

i feel it automatically alienates the audience, so i deliberately wrote about the Negro in the third person (the same way James Baldwin did)

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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tha8thjewel
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10004 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 05:48 AM

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52. "Yet the whole diatribe is shot in the foot by two sentences:"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

"The whole 'i grew up singing in the Church' became a part of the standard credibility card in the utility belt of any black soul/R&B singer worth their salt. But i contend that it’s a load of bullshit."

And the simple fact is, your contention isn't based on anything other than pure conjecture, for exactly the reasons that fire lays out in her opening statement. The Church and its choirs are a very real and very central part of the Black experience and the experience of many Black singers, and you discount all of that as a marketing gimmick. And the mere act of doing so speaks (1) to an outsider status where you can't comprehend the Black church and (2) an anthropological view that attempts to reduce *us* to terms *you* can understand.

<-- Slicka than ya average.

"It's a war in the streets tonight
And nobody's really feelin alright
I got a blunt for my chronic
A juice for my tonic
I know now
That I'm feelin right if it goes down"
-- Nas, "War"

"perky breasts go with anything....its like the black shoe."
-- my nigga my bruh, OKP thashadow

"I've spoken to women that said they deserved men that made 6 digits, when I asked what they were bringin' to the table, they ran their hands down their malformed bodies, like that's enough."
--OKP Grand_Royal, on chickenheads


"Alphas are that good high...stick witcha, you can't shake that shit...like heroin. You'll always be addicted."
--OKP novembersgift

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 05:49 AM

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54. "i'm actually laughing out loud right now."
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

i'll have to come back and talk to you once i compose myself

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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tha8thjewel
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10004 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 05:58 AM

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57. "your laughing just drives my point home."
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

<-- Slicka than ya average.

"It's a war in the streets tonight
And nobody's really feelin alright
I got a blunt for my chronic
A juice for my tonic
I know now
That I'm feelin right if it goes down"
-- Nas, "War"

"perky breasts go with anything....its like the black shoe."
-- my nigga my bruh, OKP thashadow

"I've spoken to women that said they deserved men that made 6 digits, when I asked what they were bringin' to the table, they ran their hands down their malformed bodies, like that's enough."
--OKP Grand_Royal, on chickenheads


"Alphas are that good high...stick witcha, you can't shake that shit...like heroin. You'll always be addicted."
--OKP novembersgift

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:01 AM

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61. "okay, i'm composed now"
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

>"The whole 'i grew up singing in the Church' became a part
>of the standard credibility card in the utility belt of any
>black soul/R&B singer worth their salt. But i contend that
>it’s a load of bullshit."
>
>And the simple fact is, your contention isn't based on
>anything other than pure conjecture, for exactly the reasons
>that fire lays out in her opening statement.

Nigga, ANYthing that anybody says on this board is largely based on conjecture. What makes the difference is the extent to which you can back your theory up with cogent facts and sturdy research. If you don’t agree with what i’m saying, then go ahead and find some facts to refute me rather than attempting to discredit me as an individual based on where or how i might have grown up… hell, i didn’t include myself in the post in any way, so why are you bringing me into it?

Deal with the FACTS, son… argue with the message and not the messenger.

Obviously, your only refutation is “this nigga ain’t even American”… which is incredibly lame on at least 3 levels.

The Church and
>its choirs are a very real and very central part of the
>Black experience and the experience of many Black singers,
>and you discount all of that as a marketing gimmick.

I really think the problem we’re encountering here is your difficulty with elementary reading and comprehension. I think i explicitly stated at least once in the post that the Church was the realest thing in black life. I never said that it was a gimmick.

What i DID say was that it is often used as a crutch to add “soulfulness” or “authenticity” to various forms of pop music (see: The Rolling Stones’ “you can’t always get what you want” or Foreigner’s “i wanna know what love is” or R. Kelly’s “Gotham City”)

Reading is fundamental, dude.

And the
>mere act of doing so speaks (1) to an outsider status where
>you can't comprehend the Black church

LOL i can’t even begin to comprehend the logical leap of faith that gets you from there to here

and (2) an
>anthropological view that attempts to reduce *us* to terms
>*you* can understand.

Uh huh. Riiiiiiiiiiight.


_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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tha8thjewel
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10004 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 06:14 AM

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72. "Who you callin nigga, African?"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

Anyways, as I said in my original, my points were largely covered by Torez, and as I said subsequently, the balance of my points were covered by fire. I just brought this up because you have to consider the messenger as well as the message. Whether you tried to craft your statement to SOUND objective or not, it's not subjective, nor can it be, nor is it necessarily desirable. If you embrace your own perspective, then people can actually debate the specious argument you presented, rather than trying to tease out your agenda/perspective.

<-- Slicka than ya average.

"It's a war in the streets tonight
And nobody's really feelin alright
I got a blunt for my chronic
A juice for my tonic
I know now
That I'm feelin right if it goes down"
-- Nas, "War"

"perky breasts go with anything....its like the black shoe."
-- my nigga my bruh, OKP thashadow

"I've spoken to women that said they deserved men that made 6 digits, when I asked what they were bringin' to the table, they ran their hands down their malformed bodies, like that's enough."
--OKP Grand_Royal, on chickenheads


"Alphas are that good high...stick witcha, you can't shake that shit...like heroin. You'll always be addicted."
--OKP novembersgift

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
Charter member
84244 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 06:18 AM

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75. "this gets more and more ridiculous."
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

you don't even have a point of view of your own, do you?

you just want to hang around and cosign with anybody who attempts to bash me.

weak.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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tha8thjewel
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10004 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 06:22 AM

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80. ""bash you"? dude, please don't overstate your importance lol"
In response to Reply # 75


  

          

i came in the post, torez had already basically made my point, and i added a piece i felt was missing. fire posted about the same time as i did and said basically the same things i did, but w/a lil more flavor. so why re-state what i felt has already been said?

shit dude, i barely even ever read your posts, let alone respond to them. read this one and felt you were both wrong and out of your depth.

<-- Slicka than ya average.

"It's a war in the streets tonight
And nobody's really feelin alright
I got a blunt for my chronic
A juice for my tonic
I know now
That I'm feelin right if it goes down"
-- Nas, "War"

"perky breasts go with anything....its like the black shoe."
-- my nigga my bruh, OKP thashadow

"I've spoken to women that said they deserved men that made 6 digits, when I asked what they were bringin' to the table, they ran their hands down their malformed bodies, like that's enough."
--OKP Grand_Royal, on chickenheads


"Alphas are that good high...stick witcha, you can't shake that shit...like heroin. You'll always be addicted."
--OKP novembersgift

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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84244 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 06:25 AM

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86. "you have the right to hold your own opinions."
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

that is all i will say about that, since it seems that arguing with you is like trying to reason with a torn paper bag.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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GumDrops
Charter member
26088 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 05:52 AM

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56. "whats wrong with anthropologists though?"
In response to Reply # 45
Tue Mar-01-05 05:58 AM

  

          

they come in all races. theyre not all liberal, condescending old bearded white men in search of some ethnic freakshow to pontificate about.

and as far as old white men with beards go, if it wasnt for alan lomax and his cronies, a lot of early, great blues recordings wouldnt have been made and we'd all be worse off.

  

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shockzilla
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74. "but that was all exploitation-"
In response to Reply # 56


          

white men are evil and have only brought evil into this world

what evil was the result of Lomax's efforts, you may well ask?

'Play'

the prosecution rests.


  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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76. "actually, Lomax's work HAS caused some problems."
In response to Reply # 74


  

          


_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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GumDrops
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78. "i know, but not all anthropologists are patronising ethnophiles"
In response to Reply # 76


  

          


  

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fire
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88. "alot of anthropologists read books instead of doing field studies"
In response to Reply # 78


          


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GumDrops
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91. "not good ones, and anyway, neither method is a perfect gauge"
In response to Reply # 88


  

          


  

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lonesome_d
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204. "Post of the day"
In response to Reply # 74


          

>what evil was the result of Lomax's efforts, you may well
>ask?
>
>'Play'
>
>the prosecution rests.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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fire
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38. "did u attend a black american church while growing up?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

did u go to church with beyonce? how many tuesdays & thursdays did you spend from 6:30 - 9:30 at choir practice with mr griffin? how many times a week did ur mom & dad make u practice piano/voice for church? was the piano bench in ur home full of the a.m.e or baptist hymnals.....3 different versions cuz every year there were new & improved hymns? how many bus trips did you take traveling all over w/ur church choir ala the gospel chitlin circuit cuz you guys had a reputation for bringing the biggest blackest man to tears with your uplifting voices? how many times have u seen sister johnson on the front row get filled w/the holy spirit while the missionary board has to fan him off of her cuz her & the holy spirit are gonna mess around & knock out the whole first & second pews with all that dancing? how many annual & general conferences have u been to where the choir amassed 150+ voices & heavens gates opened up & u were genuinely moved? which gospel choir in ur church was the best? the youth? the mt. zion ame choir? the senior choir? how many gospel competitions have you been to where the crux of ur life and all those practices depended on you moving the whole entire room to tears & repentance?

what is there to discuss when everything you so grandiloquently stated regarding beyonce's ascendancy was based on suspicion? while beyonce talks about the church without end? this whole shtick is a guesstimate....every frigging article & interview w/regard to ms. knowles church upbringing that i've read seen & heard point to her church. on vh1's driven (which i'm pretty sure u are alluding to, they took a whole 5 minute segment or so & talked about her church upbringing? how would a young man that did NOT grow up in an american black church, place a young woman that did not grow up in NOR was influenced by a black church, discount the said black church's influence on ANY black american singer's that says, on many occasions, on tape & record that god, his son jesus & their cousin the holy spirit are the biggest influence on their lives? ......until you've gone to church 3 times a week forcefully, for 18 years....u keep pulling these theories out ur head, the sky & ur ass to denigrate & besmirch black american church culture & it's huge ass influence on black music yesterday, today & forever in lieu of beholding a golden calf (read: yt girl) on a pedestal. i hope it makes u feel better. the black church would like to send u a big middle finger, but jesus wouldn't like that.

________________________________________
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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41. "LOL i was totally waiting for this."
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

pls

Spare me the ad hominem attacks… either respond to the substance of the post or just shut up

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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fire
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Tue Mar-01-05 05:33 AM

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42. "i did respond, NIGGER"
In response to Reply # 41


          


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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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43. "no you didn't."
In response to Reply # 42


  

          


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fire
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50. "did you grow up in an African American Christian Church or not?"
In response to Reply # 43


          

because if you didn't you are pulling this theory (however untheoretical it is) out or ur ass like a string of beads

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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53. "what does my background have to do with it."
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

either you agree with my (well-informed and well-thought out) theory or you don't.

if the latter is the case, then you tell me why, in objective terms.

you are becoming tiresome, as all your arguments are starting to revolve around the axis of "you can't understand because you are not

a) black
b) American
c) a woman
d) the offspring of clergy
e) in short, you are not FIRE"

_____________________

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fire
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59. "RE: what does my background have to do with it."
In response to Reply # 53


          

>either you agree with my (well-informed and well-thought
>out) theory or you don't.

if you havent figured out now that ure theory is neither well informed or well thought AND that i don't agree with it, u gottalot2learn.


>
>if the latter is the case, then you tell me why, in
>objective terms.

i told you why down there. i'm not gonna sit & go point to point, cuz u're' coming from a combative & defensive stance on this & i'm way too passionate about church to even go there, it's the core of alot of people's being...& i don't push my feelings about god & church on people cuz thats not how i operate...& really, beyonce sings secular music & shakes her ass which isn't necessarily christian like but so did marvin, al & prince....all of us brought up in the church have a tendency to struggle with the heart & the flesh.......but just cuz her ass is hanging out doesn't mean that she wasn't influenced by jesus as opposed to mariah carey (who never danced outside of the dream lover video).


>
>you are becoming tiresome, as all your arguments are
>starting to revolve around the axis of "you can't understand
>because you are not

look at the michelin calling the goodyear tiresome! we treading on the same road black.


>
>a) black
>b) American
>c) a woman
>d) the offspring of clergy
>e) in short, you are not FIRE"


u rn't

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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66. "you gettin pretty tresvanty here"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

>if you havent figured out now that ure theory is neither
>well informed or well thought AND that i don't agree with
>it, u gottalot2learn.

so tell me why (c) Boomtown Rats

>>if the latter is the case, then you tell me why, in
>>objective terms.
>
>i told you why down there. i'm not gonna sit & go point to
>point, cuz u're' coming from a combative & defensive stance
>on this

no, actually that would be YOU.

i just stated a theory. i'm not trying to buck anybody down. either you accept it or you don't...

>& i'm way too passionate about church to even go
>there, it's the core of alot of people's being...

not that it matters, but i'm willing to bet that i'm more passionate about God and the Church than you ever have been or will be.

& i don't
>push my feelings about god & church on people cuz thats not
>how i operate...

this discussion is about neither God nor the Church, though. it's about music and music marketing.

& really, beyonce sings secular music &
>shakes her ass which isn't necessarily christian like but so
>did marvin, al & prince....all of us brought up in the
>church have a tendency to struggle with the heart & the
>flesh.......

btw that's another rockist Soul myth that i'm gonna tackle later

but just cuz her ass is hanging out doesn't mean
>that she wasn't influenced by jesus as opposed to mariah
>carey

???

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

_____________________

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fire
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:22 AM

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81. "RE: you gettin pretty tresvanty here"
In response to Reply # 66


          

>>if you havent figured out now that ure theory is neither
>>well informed or well thought AND that i don't agree with
>>it, u gottalot2learn.
>
>so tell me why (c) Boomtown Rats

", but the fact is that at this point in time the majority of black singers are more influenced by radio/MTV/BET than any kind of “pure” church tradition. In other words, they learn to sing “black” the same way their authenticity-seeking white peers do."

motherfucker please. if that ain't the biggest lie.....fantasia's on the phone & jaheim left a message for you & john legend would like to have lunch with you and faith evans said negro please & do i even need to drag robert kelly into this? or almost any other contemporary black singer that is hot?
all of the press releases & interviews i've seen with said artists mention in NO UNCERTAIN terms that growing up in the church (read black church) influenced than more than any fucking mtv/bet....& truth be told, there are very few black music acts on mtv/bet since their inceptions that are NOT steeped in church...please name at least five that get regular rotation that sing r&b? btw, the rolling stones are a british rock band, last time i checked, does power 99 in philly play the stones?




>
>>>if the latter is the case, then you tell me why, in
>>>objective terms.
>>
>>i told you why down there. i'm not gonna sit & go point to
>>point, cuz u're' coming from a combative & defensive stance
>>on this
>
>no, actually that would be YOU.


i told u how passionate i am about the situation, don't fuck w/the church.

>
>i just stated a theory. i'm not trying to buck anybody down.
>either you accept it or you don't...

ur theory is unacceptable & i refute it concurrently.


>
>>& i'm way too passionate about church to even go
>>there, it's the core of alot of people's being...
>
>not that it matters, but i'm willing to bet that i'm more
>passionate about God and the Church than you ever have been
>or will be.
>

BwahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11


STOP
IMMEDIATELY
NIGGER PLEASE


>& i don't
>>push my feelings about god & church on people cuz thats not
>>how i operate...
>
>this discussion is about neither God nor the Church, though.
>it's about music and music marketing.

so why was god & church used as the polestar for starting the discussion, are we talkign about blk music & marketing as it relates to other music & marketing or are we talking about blk music & marketing as it relates to the church?are we gonna remove the church fromt he argument cuz if so then we have a whole nother argument going on here....if we're gonna leave jesus in it, then it is as it stands.


>& really, beyonce sings secular music &
>>shakes her ass which isn't necessarily christian like but so
>>did marvin, al & prince....all of us brought up in the
>>church have a tendency to struggle with the heart & the
>>flesh.......
>
>btw that's another rockist Soul myth that i'm gonna tackle
>later


this whole post is a myth, it's a white unicorn w/a horn & rainbow wings riding on the mighty clouds of joy.....some of which are rolling over in their heavenly graves.


>
>but just cuz her ass is hanging out doesn't mean
>>that she wasn't influenced by jesus as opposed to mariah
>>carey
>
>???
>
>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


dancing = holy spirit=church, that's not far fetched

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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90. "okay, you are taking this post SO far left field"
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

and i am not gonna go there with you

either stick to the subject of the post or make your own in which we can discuss the other things that interest you

_____________________

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fire
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:50 AM

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104. "no i'm not, u just won't admit youre wrong"
In response to Reply # 90


          


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afrobongo
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121. "lemme me just laugh at this"
In response to Reply # 81


          


>dancing = holy spirit=church, that's not far fetched


______________________________

*TWINNING*


  

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fire
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Tue Mar-01-05 09:38 AM

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168. "what's so funny?"
In response to Reply # 121


          


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afrobongo
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Tue Mar-01-05 10:18 AM

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185. "what if spirit was plural ?"
In response to Reply # 168


          

______________________________

*TWINNING*


  

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Torez
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:05 AM

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65. "she has a pertinent point, doe..."
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

church music has to be EXPERIENCED LIVE to be fully appreciated/known.

i can listen to jazz on cd - that's one thing.

to see it live is quite another.

to actually PLAY IT takes it to another level.

back to my original point: really, to try to critique church music without a live experience with it is like trynna appreciate hip hop without having seen a live show.

you missing the PURE ESSENCE of it. as in, the THING that makes it what it really is, and the SOURCE that makes people produce the art the way they do.

i mean, you ain't gotta be from MISSISSIPPI to appreciate blue...in fact, you can appreciate blues just listening to it on WAX.

but

until you have heard it LIVE....you can't know that the MUSIC is just a by-product of the circumstance. and that what makes BLUES isn't the music, but what people were FEELING that made them produce music that way.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The man of faith who has never experienced doubt is not a man of faith

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:08 AM

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67. "so i guess you're assuming"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

that i've never heard church music live

LOL

look. y'all... this post is not about me. just deal with the issues that are in the post and leave my personal life out of it.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Torez
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Tue Mar-01-05 08:19 AM

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142. "not tyrnna bring up your personal stuff...."
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

moreso saying that experiencing culture gives a person more insight into it than anything else.

you are making a lot of statements about CULTURE, and i'm saying that

1.) some of your points are wrong

2.) it could very well be because you have not experienced the culture you're talking about. this whole idea of 'black folks not putting a premium on authenticity' is one example.

the reason church music flourishes is primarily BECAUSE the only thing folks care about is the AUTHENTIC FEELING behind the singer, not how good it sounds.

i can't help but think if you'd spent a lot of time EXPERIENCING church culture, you'd know this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The man of faith who has never experienced doubt is not a man of faith

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 08:29 AM

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144. "damn, you must really think of me as"
In response to Reply # 142


  

          

some kind of bush-ass bamma fresh off the boat

you know... i've actually spent more of my life in America than in Africa. all this "you haven't experienced the culture" shit is really starting to annoy me

if you think my facts are wrong, fine. concentrate on that. don't make silly assumptions about what i have and haven't experienced in life, because you don't know me

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Torez
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Tue Mar-01-05 08:43 AM

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150. "i deal with specific issues somewhere else...."
In response to Reply # 144


  

          

as for not making "silly assumptions about what i have and haven't experienced in life", all i can say is YOU are the cat that started this post talking about PURE gospel, when there is no such thing.

so....

all i'm saying is that there are so many wrong assumptions in your initial post that it makes me question exactly what you know about the topic your talking about.

if a mug said common wasn't hip hop cause 'like water for chocolate' didn't have that PURE hip hop sound , i'd respond to them the same way.

when mugs be saying 'this party/radio rap isn't REAL HIP HOP' i routinely do.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The man of faith who has never experienced doubt is not a man of faith

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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161. "noticed how i put quotes around 'pure' gospel"
In response to Reply # 150


  

          


_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Torez
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167. "jeez, man...if its not a real criteria, then....."
In response to Reply # 161


  

          

you can't criticize them for not ADHERING to it, seems to me.

which makes the critique even worse, cause now its just picking to be picking.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The man of faith who has never experienced doubt is not a man of faith

  

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fire
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:11 AM

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68. "he's been to church though"
In response to Reply # 65


          

he didn't grow up in it...it's like being trained to be a doctor for 12 years vs. taking online courses for a medical degree.

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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69. "uh... how do you know i didn't grow up in church?"
In response to Reply # 68


  

          


_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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fire
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84. "in africa, yes. in african america, no."
In response to Reply # 69


          


________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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GumDrops
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70. "i love live music but that all sounds like hokum"
In response to Reply # 65
Tue Mar-01-05 06:52 AM

  

          


  

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shockzilla
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77. "i saw the Blues Brothers-"
In response to Reply # 65


          

i'm down.

  

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GumDrops
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83. "i saw sister act 1 AND 2"
In response to Reply # 77
Tue Mar-01-05 06:29 AM

  

          


  

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shockzilla
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85. "oh happy day."
In response to Reply # 83


          


  

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SoWhat
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:48 AM

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"but so what?"


  

          

>back to my original point: really, to try to critique church
>music without a live experience with it is like trynna
>appreciate hip hop without having seen a live show.

this post isn't about critiquing church music.

>you missing the PURE ESSENCE of it. as in, the THING that
>makes it what it really is, and the SOURCE that makes people
>produce the art the way they do.

what does that have to do w/the post?

>i mean, you ain't gotta be from MISSISSIPPI to appreciate
>blue...in fact, you can appreciate blues just listening to
>it on WAX.
>
>but
>
>until you have heard it LIVE....you can't know that the
>MUSIC is just a by-product of the circumstance. and that
>what makes BLUES isn't the music, but what people were
>FEELING that made them produce music that way.

what does that have to to do w/the post?

fuck you.

  

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thebigfunk
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125. "you took the post right out of my mouth..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

lol

where in the post did afkap critique church music???

-thebigfunk
homepage.mac.com/thebigfunk/

-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

  

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Torez
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153. "::: sigh :::"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>>this post isn't about critiquing church music.<<

the FIRST thing the cat came with was talking about a 'pure' gospel sound. he made a characterization of what it sounded like. to me, characterization = assesment = critque

in my estimation, he is wrong off the bat. which is what made me call into question everything else he said. he went on to say other things i think are in error (black folks not valuing authenticity, for one), which backed up my initial skepticism.

people say enough off the wall stuff about a subject, you eventually call into question if they know what they are talking about.

how is that unreasonable?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The man of faith who has never experienced doubt is not a man of faith

  

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SoWhat
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Tue Mar-01-05 08:56 AM

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158. "you're off-base."
In response to Reply # 153


  

          

>the FIRST thing the cat came with was talking about a 'pure'
>gospel sound. he made a characterization of what it sounded
>like. to me, characterization = assesment = critque

here's the only mention of purity i saw:

I don’t doubt that these singers actually grew up going to church, or that they might have even sung in church, >>but the fact is that at this point in time the majority of black singers are more influenced by radio/MTV/BET than any kind of >>>“pure”<<< church tradition.<< In other words, they learn to sing “black” the same way their authenticity-seeking white peers do.

that's got nothing to do w/critiquing gospel.

and it's toward the end of the post anyway...it's not the 1st thing he said.

>in my estimation, he is wrong off the bat. which is what
>made me call into question everything else he said. he went
>on to say other things i think are in error (black folks not
>valuing authenticity, for one), which backed up my initial
>skepticism.

i wondered about the authenticity part too.

fuck you.

  

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Torez
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170. "peep:"
In response to Reply # 158


  

          

>>There are very few contemporary artists who sound like “pure” gospel singers to me… <<<

to make this claim, you have to have looked at 'gospel' music and ascertained what you think 'pure gospel' sounds like.

ascertain = critique

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The man of faith who has never experienced doubt is not a man of faith

  

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Boy Wonder
Member since Oct 31st 2003
5055 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 06:53 AM

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107. "i knew this would happen..........."
In response to Reply # 43


  

          


you two man..........
_____________________________

BREAKBEAT PRODUCTIONS (BBP) PRESENTS: MARLEY RIDDIM E.P

COMING SOON ON AWAKENING RECORDINGS....(2nd QUARTER 2005)

Uh oh they gave us a soundclick page....
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/breakbeatproductions.htm

How beautiful is Jill Scott? The answer: Unfathomable.

"If I dont like it I dont like/it dont mean that im hating" - Common

Top 10 albums I heard from 2004:



**1. KEANE - HOPES AND FEARS**
(comments coming later)

2. JILL SCOTT - BEAUTIFULLY HUMAN
(comments coming later)

3. KLASHNEKOFF - THE SAGAS OF....
(comments coming later)

4. TEEDRA MOSES - COMPLEX SIMPLICITY
(comments coming later)

5. ASH - MELTDOWN
(comments coming later)

6. MURS - MURS 3:16 THE 9TH EDITION
(comments coming later)

7. KANYE WEST - COLLEGE DROPOUT
(comments coming later)

8. RAPHAEL SADDIQ - AS RAY RAY
(comments coming later)

9. EMBRACE - OUT OF NOTHING
(comments coming later)

10. THE KILLERS - HOT FUSS
(comments coming later)



5 that nearly made it to the big 10:

1. Nas -Streets Disciple
2. Van Hunt - Van Hunt
3. Ghostface - The Pretty Toney LP
4. The Roots - Tipping Point
5. R.Kelly - Happy People/You Saved Me

Honourable Mentions (good music released in 2004 in no particular order):

Estelle - The 18th Day
Dizzee Rascal - Showtime
Dead Prez - RBG
Secret Machines - Now Here Is Nowhere
Mos Def - The New Danger
Usher - Confessions
Brandy - Afrodisiac
Razorlight - Up All Night
The Music - Welcome To The North
Talib Kweli - Beautiful Struggle
De La Soul - The Grind Date
Kelis - Tasty
The Zutons - Who Killed The Zutons?
Anthony Hamilton - Comin' From Where I'm From
Norah Jones - Feels Like Home (SE)
RJD2 - Since I Last Spoke
Pete Rock - Soul Survivor 2
*newly added* Manic St Preachers - Lifeblood
*newly added* Interpol -Antics
*newly added* The Prodigy - Always Outnumbered, Never Outgunned

Currently reading:
The Pathology of Eurocentrism - Charles Wm. Ephraim

UHURU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Red, Black and F****** Green For Life.

_____________________________
patiently waiting for the Pumpkins to come back...

http://breakbeatproductions.blogspot.com

  

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Jehan
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:14 AM

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71. "it's more non-sequiturs than rae' up in this piece."
In response to Reply # 0


          




|Fliteweight|

  

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GumDrops
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:15 AM

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73. "yeah"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

i wanna respond to the lead post but havent got enough time right now.

  

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Jehan
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79. "i was referring to the replies (but yeeuh, likewise)."
In response to Reply # 73


          




|Fliteweight|

  

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GumDrops
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87. "its getting quite ugly"
In response to Reply # 79


  

          


  

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shockzilla
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37800 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 06:39 AM

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99. "i saw a fight between two matronly samoan women at church"
In response to Reply # 87


          

one easter, many years ago

that was ugly

  

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GumDrops
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:44 AM

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101. "i saw two snails roll over each other til their shells cracked open"
In response to Reply # 99
Tue Mar-01-05 06:44 AM

  

          

that was pretty nasty.

  

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Alphabet
Member since Jun 28th 2003
4402 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 06:22 AM

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82. "I always had the idea that the Black Church was/is..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the closest thing a black kid can come to music school and training....

I know some black kids are able to get classicly trained and things like that..but..for the most part any sence of music theory we have growing up comes from the church....

Even stage presence and such..choirs and preahers and stuff do alot of dynamic types stuff on the pulpit that alot of entertainers transfer onto the stage...

Even still to this day..alot of the R&B singers coem from the church..it's just a mixture now..of the BET/MTV trends with the fundamental vocals of the church..

I hear alot of church type rhythems in Missy/Timbaland's music
I hear alot of church type chords and shit with Dilla's music
9999.9999% percent of all R&B singers out now have churchy type riffs and vocal styles
I here alot of churchy type soul in 9th Wonder's music
The Roots reminds me of a church band like a mug..especialy live
Kanye... we all know his story...
Even 50 got SOMEWHAT of a gospel song on his new shit

So the "church style" is still an influence..not syaing it a TOTAL influence but it's still influencal I think...

I just don;t like how the church tried to be influence by the MTV/BET world to "draw the young people". I never realy got into that theory...Espacialy since the church spawned alot of whats going on in BET/MTV,popular music world as far as musicly



#PicABeat Audio Photo series. Where the beat is inspired by the photo.
http://soundcloud.com/KingAkai

http://kingakai.com

“I love these bitches, man. I really do.â€
- Andre 3000

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:29 AM

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92. "i never said the church had NO influence"
In response to Reply # 82


  

          

just that it is incredibly overstated and is used as a badge of authenticity to a somewhat unrealistic degree

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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fire
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:33 AM

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95. "black music culture in america is a MYTH"
In response to Reply # 82


          

i swear, i'm a write a book about this replete with gods, goddesses muses & tons of stories about the Mt. Motown and all of those that lived there eating the ambrosia of champagne better known as cristal.

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

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http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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johnny_domino
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:29 AM

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93. "Interesting Post"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I don't have anything of substance to contribute to the discussion, but the ad hominem attacks on you instead of substantive attacks on your argument are dispiriting. If it's any consolation, people pull that in every forum on here.

  

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GumDrops
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:31 AM

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94. "this post hasnt a hope in hell of going anywhere LOL"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


  

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shockzilla
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37800 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 06:37 AM

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97. "it's been too hung up on the yonce"
In response to Reply # 94


          

there's much more to the original post to tackle-

but i should really, truly be in bed right now

this is madness

  

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shockzilla
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:34 AM

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96. "just as an aside-"
In response to Reply # 0


          

'Gerald and Sean Levert grew up vocalizing together in Cleveland, Ohio under the inspiration of their father Eddie Levert Sr. - lead singer with the legendary O'Jays. "I always sang, beginning when I was real little," says Gerald, the group's chief lyricist. "I never sang in church, but began by mimicking my father." Eddie encouraged his sons, letting them help out on tours and buying them recording equipment. By the time Gerald was 12, he and his father would often spend long hours singing in the basement of the family's Shaker Heights home. '


i'd read this before and in greater detail; from what i understand, though, gerald (and possibly eddie as well) was never a part of the black american church experience- and yet still sounds like he's gotta lotta gospel in his voice.


  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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98. "interesting..."
In response to Reply # 96


  

          


_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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tha8thjewel
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:46 AM

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102. "and it's interesting to note..."
In response to Reply # 96


  

          

that unlike every other major R&B singer out there right now, gerald levert has never, ever, ever released an inspirational or gospel single or record. and he never claims the church as one of his influences.

so regardless of what you claim to "hear" in his voice, what AFKAP was talking about was how church is STATED as an influence in people's music, and proposing that it was/is a lie/gimmick. ashanti never claims she grew up in the church choir. the mofoes who grew up in the Church, CLAIM the Church. the ones that didn't, don't. and that's the whole fallacy of this discussion.

<-- Slicka than ya average.

"It's a war in the streets tonight
And nobody's really feelin alright
I got a blunt for my chronic
A juice for my tonic
I know now
That I'm feelin right if it goes down"
-- Nas, "War"

"perky breasts go with anything....its like the black shoe."
-- my nigga my bruh, OKP thashadow

"I've spoken to women that said they deserved men that made 6 digits, when I asked what they were bringin' to the table, they ran their hands down their malformed bodies, like that's enough."
--OKP Grand_Royal, on chickenheads


"Alphas are that good high...stick witcha, you can't shake that shit...like heroin. You'll always be addicted."
--OKP novembersgift

  

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shockzilla
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:54 AM

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108. "that's the what now?"
In response to Reply # 102


          

did you say 'pharisee'?

  

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fire
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:54 AM

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110. "where did gerald's father grow up?"
In response to Reply # 96


          

In a gospel duo:


http://www.mp3.com/eddie-levert/artists/79213/biography.html


Eddie Levert and group member Walter Williams, both Canton, OH, natives, first met in elementary school, then formed a gospel duo. While both were students at McKinley High School, they started the Triumphs with fellow students William Powell (born around 1941, died May 26, 1977), Bobby Massey, and Bill Isles. The group was signed to King Records and renamed the Mascots (not to be confused with the Swedish 1960s rock group) by label president Syd Lathan, recording four sides in 1961.


i grew up in new jersey in the 70's, but i guarandamntee you i got south carolina circa the 30's all up in my shit! & eddie levert is ONE artist out of a million that was not influenced by church (directly)

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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GumDrops
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:58 AM

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112. "so you dont need to actually be reared in church, its all just hereditar"
In response to Reply # 110


  

          

amazing!

  

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fire
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Tue Mar-01-05 07:05 AM

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116. "where the fuck did i say hereditary?"
In response to Reply # 112


          

we're talking about the environment & it's influence on ur art.

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shockzilla
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117. "hence the 'just as an aside', dearest"
In response to Reply # 110


          


  

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greg_soundz
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177. "this was VERY obvious a few years ago..."
In response to Reply # 96
Tue Mar-01-05 09:58 AM

  

          

BET had Gerald Levert on one of the Celebration of Gospel specials a few years ago. It was Gerald Levert, Kelly Price, and Shirley Caesar opening the show singing "He's All Over Me". Gerald looked and sounded SO outta place. He was snapping his fingers, doing all his trademark vocal moves but it was an obvious clash. After the song, host Steve Harvey made a joke about it basically saying..."y'all know Gerald ain't have no business up there...he looked lost..."

This, I think, points to the ideas of real tangible experience in the Black Church and the authenticity that is required from those who also share and value that experience. I could have told y'all that Gerald ain't grow up singing in the church, it's obvious.

----------------------------
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SoWhat
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100. "Niggers, I grew up in church and I agree w/Afkap."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

now come w/it.

i sang in the Sunbeams (youth choir) at 1st Baptist Church of Maplewood (Missouri) for 4 yrs from age 8 to 12. i was a soloist. (i used to could sing, y'all). i attended church each and every Sunday, choir rehearsal on Thursday (used to miss "Cosby" b/c of it!), and home Bible class on Wednesday. plus there was Vacation Bible School in the summers. oh, and Sunday School every Sunday morning where-in i was quite the scholar. so my Black Church card has all its holes punched. not to mention i just paid my American Nigger dues.

so what's up?

Affy didn't say the Black church has no cred...he said white Rock artists borrow from its traditions to give their work a certain credibility. think they don't? really? he also said current Black R&B artists are quick to lean on the church to give their careers some cred. he suspects, as do i, not that folks don't sing in the churches anymore...but that the music they release is more concerned w/sounding like Star Search than sounding like Greater New Bethel Rock Full Gospel AME Church of God In Christ Fellowship Holiness Temple. Beyonce is the penultimate example of this new phenomenon. i saw the same episode of "Driven" that Fire saw and i saw Kelly, Yonce, and them other ones doing singing/dancing drills ON CAMERA as lead by Mama and Papa Knowles. to me that meant from day 1 those girls were concerned w/being stars...not w/being 'authentic'. Yonce didn't pay her dues in a choir stand...she paid them in that basement in front of that video camera. and she paid them running miles everyday while singing...that was on camera too. those basement sessions shaped her singing much more than any choir rehearsal. if she sang in church it was a sidenote...her real concern was Star Search. (oh, and btw...she made it to Star Search.)

what's really going on here?

fuck you.

  

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shockzilla
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105. "how much has the advent of music videos"
In response to Reply # 100


          

influenced this change?

what's whitney got to do with it?

  

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SoWhat
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111. "Whitney has everything to do w/it."
In response to Reply # 105


  

          

lil kids everywhere tape and Tivo music videos from their idols and study their moves. they buy the CDs and rewind and rewind trying to mimic them. just watch American (err...Australian) Idol and you can see that.

>what's whitney got to do with it?

Whitney grew up singing in the church but the music that made her famous had little to do w/that. and so now when lil girls all over the world are out there doing Whitney impressions they're not drawing from any sort of Black church experience.

fuck you.

  

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shockzilla
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127. "i've thought that also of whitney-"
In response to Reply # 111


          

and it's seemed to me that she was *the* hero of a lot of today's r&b chicks

on the flipside is mary j. blige?

did she grow up in the gospel choir tradition?

'cause when she first started, she was very rough. hell, she's flat on record. that in itself wouldn't seem to be a product of all that training that you and fire spoke on- and yet again (to me) it would seem that she *does* have a church influence in her voice.

--

on the (ugh) idol singers- it's not so much vocal runs as vocal diarrhea. eff that.


  

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SoWhat
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134. "Mary..."
In response to Reply # 127


  

          

>and it's seemed to me that she was *the* hero of a lot of
>today's r&b chicks
>
>on the flipside is mary j. blige?

i dunno.

>did she grow up in the gospel choir tradition?

i don't remember hearing that.

>'cause when she first started, she was very rough. hell,
>she's flat on record. that in itself wouldn't seem to be a
>product of all that training that you and fire spoke on- and
>yet again (to me) it would seem that she *does* have a
>church influence in her voice.

the trouble is we think R&B singing in general came from church and so we assume everyone sings that way has church influence.


fuck you.

  

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Cre8
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221. "she was the first thang come to mind while readin this post"
In response to Reply # 105


  

          

*goes back to reading*

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urbgriot
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106. "she still got it though.."
In response to Reply # 100


          

hell Drew Hill started as a gospel group and became pop stars...

They when to talent shows and trained just like DC but they also had that church background..

do you take away they're church stripes...


https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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SoWhat
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114. "hmmm."
In response to Reply # 106


  

          

Dru Hill is a different case than Destiny's Child. DC was formed for the explicit purpose of making it big via Star Search and the like.

fuck you.

  

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fire
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123. "maybe that is WHY DC was formed but what the hell does"
In response to Reply # 114


          

it have to do with their biggest influence? there are a million groups that are formed for "stardom/blowing up" purposes, that doesn't take one drop of church influence out of their being.

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SoWhat
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126. "you know what though?"
In response to Reply # 123


  

          

your fervent defense of Yonce's church cred seems to prove Affy's point...that it's important to current audiences that their revered singers be steeped in church tradition. (which may cause them to overstate the importance of church in their backgrounds, as i suspect is the case w/Yonce)

if church wasn't her main influence what would that mean for you? would it change your opinion of her voice?

fuck you.

  

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fire
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131. "RE: you know what though?"
In response to Reply # 126


          

>your fervent defense of Yonce's church cred seems to prove
>Affy's point...that it's important to current audiences that
>their revered singers be steeped in church tradition.
>(which may cause them to overstate the importance of church
>in their backgrounds, as i suspect is the case w/Yonce)


i could give a fuck if you grew up in the church or not, if you're hot you're hot, but i'm not gonna sit up there & ignore the church and/or discount it's influence on blk music in america. it all can be linked to gospel.


>
>if church wasn't her main influence what would that mean for
>you? would it change your opinion of her voice?


no, i would love her voice regardless.....church just puts in her in the same box with other greatly successful black musicians.

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SoWhat
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137. "this is telling:"
In response to Reply # 131


  

          

church just puts
>in her in the same box with other greatly successful black
>musicians.

...and it's exactly what this post is about. singers use that "i grew up in church" bit BECAUSE it puts them in league w/other great Black musicians. even if it's not true. in the case of Yonce, i really don't think it is.

fuck you.

  

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fire
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147. "RE: this is telling:"
In response to Reply # 137


          

>church just puts
>>in her in the same box with other greatly successful black
>>musicians.
>
>...and it's exactly what this post is about. singers use
>that "i grew up in church" bit BECAUSE it puts them in
>league w/other great Black musicians.

but that's just a categorization, if she sucked we wouldn't be having this argument. the church influence is a trait that contributes to the end product result.

even if it's not
>true. in the case of Yonce, i really don't think it is.


what, that she's not great, or church didn't help her?

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SoWhat
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151. "is that what this is? you think we're attacking Yonce?"
In response to Reply # 147


  

          

you think this is a "Yonce Can't Sing" post? cuz it's not.

>but that's just a categorization, if she sucked we wouldn't
>be having this argument. the church influence is a trait
>that contributes to the end product result.

ha! i don't believe it.

> even if it's not
>>true. in the case of Yonce, i really don't think it is.
>
>
>what, that she's not great, or church didn't help her?

'great'? i dunno. she's good though.

fuck you.

  

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tha8thjewel
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109. "so you're saying singing in church didn't inform her singing?"
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

and you're basing that on the fact that she trained to be a singer outside of church? and that they didn't record (or, rather, that "driven" didn't show) her church performances? that her STYLE, not her drive, not her technical skill or meticulously honed ability to sing while doing aerobics, has nothing to do with growing up singing in youth choir and junior choir?

if that's your opinion, that she's a liar and church ain't influence her, fine. but just make it plain, doggie.

<-- Slicka than ya average.

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And nobody's really feelin alright
I got a blunt for my chronic
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"Alphas are that good high...stick witcha, you can't shake that shit...like heroin. You'll always be addicted."
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SoWhat
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120. "yup."
In response to Reply # 109


  

          

>and you're basing that on the fact that she trained to be a
>singer outside of church?

yup.

>that her STYLE, not her drive, not her technical skill or
>meticulously honed ability to sing while doing aerobics, has
>nothing to do with growing up singing in youth choir and
>junior choir?

her style owes more to Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey and the like than any youth or jr choir. that's what i'm saying, yes.

from what i've heard/read/seen about her background there was little time for choir in her life. it was all pretty much school & DC practice in that basement. to the point where Kelly and/or those other 2 moved into the Knowles house so they could practice!

>if that's your opinion, that she's a liar and church ain't
>influence her, fine. but just make it plain, doggie.

i wouldn't go so far as to say she's a liar b/c my mama taught me better than that © Destiny's Child. but i'm saying that i agree w/Affy's theory that she brings up church as a way of stamping her work w/some authenticity b/c that's important in today's music marketing.

fuck you.

  

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t510
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113. "folks didnt understand"
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

admittedly, neither did i
but someone asked to have his point confirmed somewhere up there and now i get it
and i agree

  

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fire
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Tue Mar-01-05 07:03 AM

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115. "so they only should've showed beyonce in church"
In response to Reply # 100


          

& her father shouldn't have taped any of her basement sessions in order to lend credence to the fact that she grew up in church? marvin aint got no tapes in church but every bio written on him says that church was the biggest influence on his singing growing up. i'm not gonna discount what an artist says about their influence simply cuz vh1 edits a program to exclude/include a huge part of their life.

& u grew up in church but u're not a recording artist on record being interviewed & asked questions about ur influence are u?

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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118. "Marvin's biggest influence was not church"
In response to Reply # 115


  

          

in fact, a lot of the churches he went to didn't partake in the kind of expressive singing that is most often associated with black American Christianity (remember that his dad was mostly affiliated with a kind of obscure Afro-Judaic sect)

i'm not saying that he had NO church in him whatsoever... it's been documented that he did do some church singing. but as i've argued before, his biggest influences came from the radio... particularly "guinea crooners" like Frank, Dino, Perry Como, Nat King Cole, and also from pop bluesmen like Big Joe Turner

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fire
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135. "RE: Marvin's biggest influence was not church"
In response to Reply # 118


          

>in fact, a lot of the churches he went to didn't partake in
>the kind of expressive singing that is most often associated
>with black American Christianity (remember that his dad was
>mostly affiliated with a kind of obscure Afro-Judaic sect)

did the churches have singing? yes or no?


>
>i'm not saying that he had NO church in him whatsoever...
>it's been documented that he did do some church singing. but
>as i've argued before, his biggest influences came from the
>radio... particularly "guinea crooners" like Frank, Dino,
>Perry Como, Nat King Cole, and also from pop bluesmen like
>Big Joe Turner


did marvin grow up in the black church in america, yes or no? & the fact that marvin wanted to be like nat king cole or a black frank sinatra aint got SHIT on how he grew up & what he was initially influenced by.

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 08:16 AM

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139. "technically, he didn't grow up in 'the Black Church'"
In response to Reply # 135


  

          

not as we know it, anyway

unless you're also open to describing a sect such as the Black Israelites as part of "the black church"

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Cre8
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222. "actually"
In response to Reply # 139


  

          

the Black Israelites have a dynamic choir, well the current ones in Chicago anyway.
this post is GRRREAT!
*goes back to reading*

Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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230. "really?"
In response to Reply # 222


  

          

i did not know that... i find it hard to imagine!

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SoWhat
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Tue Mar-01-05 07:12 AM

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124. "RE: so they only should've showed beyonce in church"
In response to Reply # 115


  

          

> & her father shouldn't have taped any of her basement
>sessions in order to lend credence to the fact that she grew
>up in church?

her father wasn't just taping those basement sessions. the camera was an integral part of those sessions b/c the work they were doing was highly concerned w/being ready for video(s).

marvin aint got no tapes in church but every
>bio written on him says that church was the biggest
>influence on his singing growing up. i'm not gonna discount
>what an artist says about their influence simply cuz vh1
>edits a program to exclude/include a huge part of their
>life.

Marvin's father was a minister...that doesn't mean the church was his #1 influence.

>& u grew up in church but u're not a recording artist on
>record being interviewed & asked questions about ur
>influence are u?

oh, so now we can't talk about this issue if we're not recording artists? lol



fuck you.

  

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fire
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Tue Mar-01-05 08:19 AM

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141. "RE: so they only should've showed beyonce in church"
In response to Reply # 124


          


>
>her father wasn't just taping those basement sessions. the
>camera was an integral part of those sessions b/c the work
>they were doing was highly concerned w/being ready for
>video(s).
>

how does being in front of & performing for a camera discount the church's influence on her life & singing?



>
>Marvin's father was a minister...that doesn't mean the
>church was his #1 influence.

was it or was it not his biggest influence & struggle betwixt the world & god during his whole life?


>
>>& u grew up in church but u're not a recording artist on
>>record being interviewed & asked questions about ur
>>influence are u?
>
>oh, so now we can't talk about this issue if we're not
>recording artists? lol


that's not what i'm saying, i'm saying that beyonce knowles has taken it upon her self on NUMEROUS occasions to big up church, church singing & it's influence on her music & showmanship.

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SoWhat
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155. "naw."
In response to Reply # 141


  

          

>how does being in front of & performing for a camera
>discount the church's influence on her life & singing?

i'm not talking about the church's influence on her life nor am i saying she didn't attend church nor am i saying she's not a Christian. i AM saying i don't believe she's 1 of those artists whose singing craft was honed by years of experience in the Black church. why? partly b/c of the singing/dancing on camera in that basement...the way she and those others drilled themselves b/c they wanted to be ready for their tv auditions. to me it says church wasn't her main priority. if her goal all along was to get on tv (and it was) then it makes sense she'd look to other singers who're on tv for inspiration. if her goal was to get saints to praise the lord ("praise the lord, saints!") then why was there DC boot camp going down in Houston for those years? huh?

>>Marvin's father was a minister...that doesn't mean the
>>church was his #1 influence.
>
>was it or was it not his biggest influence & struggle
>betwixt the world & god during his whole life?

struggle? yes. influence? no. you already know how much he wanted to be a crooner, Fire. Perry Como has nothing to do w/Black church anything. hell, Harvey Fuqua (from the Moonglows...his doo-wop mentor) was a bigger influence on his singing than church.

>that's not what i'm saying, i'm saying that beyonce knowles
>has taken it upon her self on NUMEROUS occasions to big up
>church, church singing & it's influence on her music &
>showmanship.

b/c it's good for her career!

fuck you.

  

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nabi
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136. "as did i"
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

whoomp there it is.

there Af, you can BORROW some of my 'American Negro' points so they won't attack you on that front so much.

and i did say BORROW - LOL...

__________
"Justice is really love in calculation. Justice is love correcting that which revolts against love..." - MLK

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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140. "thank you"
In response to Reply # 136


  

          

i'll return your N!gger Card to you unscathed

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Torez
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146. "'niggers?' s'wrong with you, man? jeez"
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

to your points:

>>he also said current Black R&B artists are quick to lean on the church to give their careers some cred.<<<

cred? from the church? the CHURCH has no CRED. don't nobody buy music cause of the church. people buy music for 1.) hot beats 2.) catchy breaks and 3.) a decent voice. the church isn't very relevant.

>>he suspects, as do i, not that folks don't sing in the churches anymore...but that the music they release is more concerned w/sounding like Star Search than sounding like Greater New Bethel Rock Full Gospel AME Church of God In Christ Fellowship Holiness Temple.<<<

maybe. but if it sounds like that, its prolly more because there's no creative outlet for music with gospel themes, and music for radio isn't made to suit the gospel sound.

MARY J BLIGE doesn't sound like 'the church' necessarily - until you hear her LIVE. then you know.

you can't judge folks singing until you hear it live. (which backs up my other point.)

hearing beyonce on slow songs (and live) leads me to believe she CAN sing, and that the church had a heavy influence on her singing.

>>Beyonce is the penultimate example of this new phenomenon. i saw the same episode of "Driven" that Fire saw and i saw Kelly, Yonce, and them other ones doing singing/dancing drills ON CAMERA as lead by Mama and Papa Knowles. to me that meant from day 1 those girls were concerned w/being stars...not w/being 'authentic'. Yonce didn't pay her dues in a choir stand...she paid them in that basement in front of that video camera. and she paid them running miles everyday while singing...that was on camera too. those basement sessions shaped her singing much more than any choir rehearsal. if she sang in church it was a sidenote...her real concern was Star Search. (oh, and btw...she made it to Star Search.)<<<

this is all speculation, dawg. honestly, look at the current sex doused, hoochie'd up music scene today. there is NOTHING to be gained by talking about the church, or being church affiliated. its too many mugs that sell mad records that

1.) don't big up the church

2.) spit COUNTER to the church

y'all just some cynics.

what's really going on here?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The man of faith who has never experienced doubt is not a man of faith

  

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SoWhat
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Tue Mar-01-05 09:01 AM

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159. "church cred is to R&B as street cred is to hip-hop."
In response to Reply # 146


  

          

meaning they're about equally important to (some) artists of each genre and they're about equally true. hip-hop artists brag about jail time, gang affiliations, and crime like R&B singers brag about doing time in church choirs. that's the crux of this post. anything else you say that has nothing to do w/that is extra.

please tell me that makes sense. you can agree or not agree w/the assertion...but do you get the assertion?


fuck you.

  

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keybored
Member since Apr 08th 2003
43228 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 09:06 AM

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160. "is that what all this babbling is about?!?!?"
In response to Reply # 159


  

          

is it really??
somebody leff the gate wide the fuck open on this one. shit

<- Make We Puff It Inna Communion © Buju Banton

If his status ain’t hood I aint checking for him
better be street if he looking at me I need a soldier
and he’s gotta stand up for me
known to carry big things if you know what I mean

If his status ain’t hood I ain’t checking for him
Better be street if he looking at me
I need a soldier and he’s gotta stand up for me
Gotta know to get dough and he better be street...u mad?


feed ur voyuerism: read my blog.

BITE MY TONGUE FOR NO ONE, CALL ME EVIL...OR UNBELIEVABLE

i say
life and liberty
i say
love and unity
i say
clean livity...afrika

  

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SoWhat
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Tue Mar-01-05 09:10 AM

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163. "that's exactly what it's about, Key."
In response to Reply # 160


  

          

ppl got their feelings hurt b/c they think Af is attacking the Black church and/or Yonce.

fuck you.

  

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t510
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Tue Mar-01-05 09:26 AM

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166. "sadly, yes"
In response to Reply # 160


  

          


  

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k_orr
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Tue Mar-01-05 09:44 AM

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173. "beat me to it"
In response to Reply # 159


  

          

I was itching to write that, but I can't post from work.

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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fire
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111370 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 09:57 AM

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176. "that is not what my original assertion even ALLUDED to"
In response to Reply # 159


          

this argument got started because i said that joss' hand wave during singing can be directly LINKED to the black church culture in america & that she copied it while looking at african american singers, then i said that beyonce's was more "real" cuz she grew up seeing/mimicking it from a young age instead of seeing it one day while watching an aretha tape & thinking "hey i need to do that to be more soulful/black"....afkap went on to say that beyonce wasn't influenced performance wise by the church, but what instead influenced by mariah carey & star search. in his original post he STARTED OUT with my praise on the black church and BEYONCES artistry as being "wrong"....what he should've done is not used my fucking name as the go to person as being fucking wrong. i don't appreciate that shit & yes i'm gonna be fucking defensive when someone that didn't grow up in america NOR in a black church tries to discount it's legacy /influence...whether they believe it to be true or not. i ahve never fucking ever throughout the course of these dialogues EVER FUCKING stated that church cred = r&b cred. if u or any of these other posters can state that point during my argument where i did that, then i digress.

otherwise, everybody leave me thee fuck alone.

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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SoWhat
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Tue Mar-01-05 10:16 AM

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184. "...that was for Torez...which is why i replied to him, not you."
In response to Reply # 176


  

          

>this argument got started because i said that joss' hand
>wave during singing can be directly LINKED to the black
>church culture in america & that she copied it while looking
>at african american singers, then i said that beyonce's was
>more "real" cuz she grew up seeing/mimicking it from a young
>age instead of seeing it one day while watching an aretha
>tape & thinking "hey i need to do that to be more
>soulful/black"....afkap went on to say that beyonce wasn't
>influenced performance wise by the church, but what instead
>influenced by mariah carey & star search.

okay. but we're talking about this post. now, in the present...not whatever brought us to this post.

in his original
>post he STARTED OUT with my praise on the black church and
>BEYONCES artistry as being "wrong"....what he should've done
>is not used my fucking name as the go to person as being
>fucking wrong.

lol

i don't appreciate that shit & yes i'm
>gonna be fucking defensive when someone that didn't grow up
>in america NOR in a black church tries to discount it's
>legacy /influence...

i still don't see where you're getting that from. it's not in the post...you must be drawing it from something between you and Af.

>i ahve never fucking ever throughout the course of
>these dialogues EVER FUCKING stated that church cred = r&b
>cred.

i know. but i swear that's what the post is about. we should ask Af...he wrote it. it's pretty clear to me though.

if u or any of these other posters can state that
>point during my argument where i did that, then i digress.

you didn't..but you should've b/c that's what the post is about....

>otherwise, everybody leave me thee fuck alone.

it's Stevie Wonder Month.

Smile Please:

A smiling face is on earth like star
A frown can't bring out the beauty that you are
Love within and you'll begin smiling...
There're brighter days ahead

Don't mess your face up with better tears
'Cause life is gonna be what it is
It's okay, please don't delay from smiling...
There're brighter days ahead

Bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum
di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum

A smiling face you don't have to see
'Cause it's as joyful as a Christmas tree
Love within and you'll begin smiling...
There're brighter days ahead

Love's not competing it's on your side
You're in life picture so why must you cry
So for a friend please begin to smile - Please
There're brighter days ahead

Bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum

Please smile for me

Bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum

Please smile for me

Bum - smile
Bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum

fuck you.

  

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urbgriot
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Tue Mar-01-05 06:48 AM

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103. "dog I born & raised in GA"
In response to Reply # 0


          

grew up in two places the church and the streets...

and when you have lived something dog you'll recognize it when you see it..(real recognize real)

I grew up AME and have been to some of the most countrified churches..(where the piano player is also the drummer and she is using her feet for drums.. grandma got the dried up jheri curl in the front pew )

and they're are polished singers and rough singers in the church.. matter of fact some churches teach vocal lessons inorder to polish their chiors.. most chiors have a mixture of both..

with beyonce & joss's music I rarely hear the passion or energy from the church in their music..

I do hear it from DC especailly when they are live..
even more so when they are singing gospel ...

the point is that yonce got IT and it comes out of her especially when she is singing live..

with joss it just seems forced and unauthentic.. like even if I were to close my eyes and just listen it would sound the same way..

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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Warren Coolidge
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41998 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 07:07 AM

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119. "Regardless of where they got their chops..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

both Joss and Beyonce have them..

from my perspective...Beyonce has a lot more power and control over her voice....her voice is more mature and her soul comes across as more natural than Joss....

Joss is good, but her voice still sounds a bit like a young girl who is riffing to make it sound like she's got soul....B' is a woman who can blow....period. On record she doesn't show it as much ...but live it's right there for you.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 07:09 AM

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122. "the point is not about Joss vs. Beyonce"
In response to Reply # 119


  

          

if you like, we can change Joss's name to "Teena Marie" and Beyonce's name to "Michael Jackson" and the basic issue would not change

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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buildingblock
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100000 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 07:37 AM

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130. "i just want my name to be archived that i was here durin'"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

this momentus event

...a child is born with no state of mind, blind to the ways of mankind, god is smilin' on you and frownin' too, because only god knows what you gonna do...©melle mel

  

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Boy Wonder
Member since Oct 31st 2003
5055 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 02:28 PM

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226. "block arrives lol"
In response to Reply # 130


  

          

_____________________________

BREAKBEAT PRODUCTIONS (BBP) PRESENTS: MARLEY RIDDIM E.P

COMING SOON ON AWAKENING RECORDINGS....(2nd QUARTER 2005)

Uh oh they gave us a soundclick page....
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/breakbeatproductions.htm

How beautiful is Jill Scott? The answer: Unfathomable.

"If I dont like it I dont like/it dont mean that im hating" - Common

Top 10 albums I heard from 2004:



**1. KEANE - HOPES AND FEARS**
(comments coming later)

2. JILL SCOTT - BEAUTIFULLY HUMAN
(comments coming later)

3. KLASHNEKOFF - THE SAGAS OF....
(comments coming later)

4. TEEDRA MOSES - COMPLEX SIMPLICITY
(comments coming later)

5. ASH - MELTDOWN
(comments coming later)

6. MURS - MURS 3:16 THE 9TH EDITION
(comments coming later)

7. KANYE WEST - COLLEGE DROPOUT
(comments coming later)

8. RAPHAEL SADDIQ - AS RAY RAY
(comments coming later)

9. EMBRACE - OUT OF NOTHING
(comments coming later)

10. THE KILLERS - HOT FUSS
(comments coming later)



5 that nearly made it to the big 10:

1. Nas -Streets Disciple
2. Van Hunt - Van Hunt
3. Ghostface - The Pretty Toney LP
4. The Roots - Tipping Point
5. R.Kelly - Happy People/You Saved Me

Honourable Mentions (good music released in 2004 in no particular order):

Estelle - The 18th Day
Dizzee Rascal - Showtime
Dead Prez - RBG
Secret Machines - Now Here Is Nowhere
Mos Def - The New Danger
Usher - Confessions
Brandy - Afrodisiac
Razorlight - Up All Night
The Music - Welcome To The North
Talib Kweli - Beautiful Struggle
De La Soul - The Grind Date
Kelis - Tasty
The Zutons - Who Killed The Zutons?
Anthony Hamilton - Comin' From Where I'm From
Norah Jones - Feels Like Home (SE)
RJD2 - Since I Last Spoke
Pete Rock - Soul Survivor 2
*newly added* Manic St Preachers - Lifeblood
*newly added* Interpol -Antics
*newly added* The Prodigy - Always Outnumbered, Never Outgunned

Currently reading:
The Pathology of Eurocentrism - Charles Wm. Ephraim

UHURU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Red, Black and F****** Green For Life.

_____________________________
patiently waiting for the Pumpkins to come back...

http://breakbeatproductions.blogspot.com

  

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Warren Coolidge
Charter member
41998 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 07:41 AM

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132. "I think it's a bit inaccurate to"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

characterize the changes in Black music throughout the years as being varying degrees of Black folks trying to stay ahead of Whitey....way over simplification.

this whole rockist thing is a bit silly....I mean, Black culture regarding music is certainly sufficient enough to look at on it's own merit rather than trying to tie it to the macinations of Whitey, as you say.....for example, the bee-bop era was about more than just doing something that Whitey wouldn't understand....there is a larger general sociological argument one could make that would include this...but on the grassroots level so to speak, what made Charlie Parker flip things the way he did was about way more than him sitting at home trying to figure out ways to fool White folks...

if rockist is about finding authenticity...I would suggest todays modern mainstream Black music makers to be rockist because they are certainly not staying ahead of Whitey today....the lack of authenticity in mainstream Black music is killing it right now....

Whites have always been able to utilize what Blacks do in music to benefit them more than it benefits Blacks....unfortunately Black people have taken consumerism to such great heights, that they will disregard their own greatness in an effort to stay in tune with whatever the lastest form of popular culture White corporate America pimps out to them....Keeping it real as they say...but making a life-less, soul-less and many times quality-less mainstream...

  

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Wendell
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Tue Mar-01-05 08:07 AM

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133. "hmmm"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Beyounce is a bad example. She's is definitely a Pop singer. I really don't detect any "Soul" stylings in her singing. That should have been painfully clear at this weekends award show.

>Keeping Ahead of Whitey culminated in Soul music, which drew
>its inspiration from the Black Church. If you wanted to Keep
>Ahead of Whitey, you couldn’t do much better than to look
>inward to the Church, a place that was so unremittingly “us”
>and which traditionally held much fascination and fear in
>the white imagination.
>
>The Church was a place that was at the center of the black
>community, and its music was fairly unique, rejecting most
>of the stylings of American commercial music… of course, it
>wasn’t long before Whitey discovered that once you could
>scrub the music clean of some of the more unsettling
>elements of the Church such as the spirit possession and the
>angry shouting (whites tend to interpret any instance where
>blacks raise their voices as “angry”… go figger), they had
>some pretty cool sounds.

I'm with you, up until this point...

>As a result, the Church became the new center of
>authenticity in American music. We learned that black
>singers were viewed as more “real” if we could believe that
>they were plucked out of the choir of the Bethel AME in East
>Hamhock, Alabama and that they were in essence untainted by
>commercialism. At the same time, white singers found that
>they were bestowed with instant authenticity and gravitas
>when they backed their songs with a bunch of fat black
>gospel singers in robes (this gimmick eventually filtered
>back to black musicians, as exemplified best by Robert
>Kelly… but we’ll get back to that later)

Not liking this very much.

>Eventually, the idea of black church singing became just
>another easily replicable “authenticity”-bestowing gimmick
>that could be reduced to a bunch of overdramatic riffs,
>melismas and vibratos.

Not to me.

>The whole “i grew up singing in the Church” became a part of
>the standard credibility card in the utility belt of any
>black soul/R&B singer worth their salt. But i contend that
>it’s a load of bullshit.
>
>I don’t doubt that these singers actually grew up going to
>church, or that they might have even sung in church, but the
>fact is that at this point in time the majority of black
>singers are more influenced by radio/MTV/BET than any kind
>of “pure” church tradition. In other words, they learn to
>sing “black” the same way their authenticity-seeking white
>peers do.

We definitely part ways here. See Fantasia...

>Let’s take Beyonce. Now, i know that she is a devout
>Christian and probably “grew up in the church” (whatever the
>fuck that means nowadays) but i’ve read/watched a grip of
>biographical material on her and i haven’t seen anything
>that indicates the Church played any central role in the
>formation of her musical identity.

Depends on who did the stories. White folks, when they tell our story, normally forget to mention the church. See Ray for an example.


Peace

Wendell

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 08:13 AM

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138. "forget about how i phrased certain things"
In response to Reply # 133


  

          

and just concentrate on the point.

i think you DO agree with me, Wendell...

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Wendell
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Tue Mar-01-05 08:53 AM

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156. "case by case"
In response to Reply # 138


          

because I think your generalization, as most are, are wrong.

I agree Yonce came up on the pageant circuit, so yes on her. But I don't even think that she tries to Soul sing in the first place. She's a Pop singer and I'm not sure if she will ever be anything more than that.

I've never listened to Joss, but I know she's manufactored.

I do think mainstream singing has made it's way into the Church. I witnessed this at a funeral a few months ago where this 14 year old tried to Yonce her way through a spiritual. It was painfully bad, despite the fact that the kid had a nice voice. But I truely believe all that changes when the singer learns the meaning of the song. This kid didn't believe what she was singing, maybe because the song about "goin home" is not really relevant to an invincible teen. I'm willing to bet that this same song has a different level of meaning after her faith is tested with the passing of a close family member though.

Soul singing is a few things, but most importantly it's selling whatever you are singing. Maybe Yonce hasn't had the material to allow/make her sell a song properly, who knows???


Peace

Wendell

  

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afrobongo
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Tue Mar-01-05 08:30 AM

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145. "here they do"
In response to Reply # 133


          


>Depends on who did the stories. White folks, when they tell
>our story, normally forget to mention the church. See Ray
>for an example.

even when it doesn't exist...

As they never forget to mention Poverty
even if it doesn't exist
______________________________

*TWINNING*


  

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Wendell
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8207 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 08:55 AM

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157. "What you talkin bout"
In response to Reply # 145


          

Bongo???


Peace

Wendell

  

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afrobongo
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Tue Mar-01-05 09:08 AM

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162. "the obligatory mention of the church background by YT"
In response to Reply # 157


          


in any black musician biography even if said black musician never sang in church

same thing with "poverty".


______________________________

*TWINNING*


  

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Wendell
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8207 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 12:13 PM

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217. "gotcha"
In response to Reply # 162


          


Peace

Wendell

  

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Aja
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21515 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 08:40 AM

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148. "I thought I remember reading or hearing somewhere from"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Beyonce, herself, in either some paper or visual media that she didn't really grow up singing in the church.

I also feel that even with all Be-Be's vocal training, wherever it came from, when I hear her songs, I don't get much feeling from it--like she truly meant what she said. I may shake my butt a little or even sing to the songs-but I don't really get anything else from it. It's so on-the-surface to me, y'know.

I can hear more feeling come from Joss Stone when she's singing a song, even if she didn't mean those lyrics she sang, than I can from Beyonce.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 08:49 AM

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154. "hey stranger!"
In response to Reply # 148


  

          

always glad to see you round here!

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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weinventedthealias
Member since Mar 05th 2003
140 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 08:42 AM

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149. "Now THIS is a good AFKAP post"
In response to Reply # 0


          

not that other attention grabbing bullshit.

  

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tapedeck
Member since Dec 27th 2004
6785 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 08:44 AM

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152. "you know what"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i have always disagreed with people who think to be a good singer you have to get your skills in church first. then you can go on to sing. a person with a good singing voice can practice in the bathroom all the time and become a good to excellent singer. that's my 2 cents.


i'm playin: 1. roberta flack-vol.1(my own compilation) 2. anita baker-the songstress 3. patrice rushen-now 4. nnenna freelon-self-titled 5. ernie isley-high wire 6. en vogue-born to sing 7. donald brown-sources of inspiration


BLACK WOMEN RULE!

CASSETTES ARE THE TRUTH! VINYL ROCKS! CD'S MAKE GREAT DECORATIONS!

MY FAB 4 PRODUCERS!: bernadette cooper(www.klymaxx.org), la la, angela winbush, and lesette wilson

ROBERTA FLACK is da BOMB! www.robertaflack.com

i love music-THE MIGHTY O'JAYS

nobody makes love to music the way Barry White does. Nobody.-BARRY WHITE

i'll rock ya blind folded/betta yet with no mic/hype it accapella/make ya dee jay go on strike.-MC LYTE( www.mc-lyte.com )

THE GREATEST ALBUM IN THE UNIVERSE: SLAVE-STONE JAM

LIONEL RICHIE IS MY FAVORITE MUSICIAN!

RICK JAMES WAS A MUSICAL GENIUS!

my love for the art(MUSIC) is what drives me-AALIYAH

NEO SOUL DOESN'T EXIST-fire

THELMA from GOODTIMES is right hur: www.bstanis.com

jawjuh man
star being
lady sun's favorite

Bumpin in the STEREO:
Gladys Knight&The Pips
The Pointer Sisters-Steppin
Vesta-Vesta
The Isley Brothers -Go All The Way

  

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fire
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164. "*******so everyone can shutup)(***********************"
In response to Reply # 0


          

http://www.teenmusic.com/d.asp?r=48247

TeenHollywood.com: Your new film 'The Fighting Temptations' is all about gospel music. How important is the church and gospel in your life?

advertisement (story continues below)


Beyonce: I grew up in church and I really related because I know how church people can be sometimes. I grew up around very positive women. My mother owned a hair salon and I worked there, so I grew up around all these women, and they were strong. A lot were single mothers, and so I liked playing Lilly in the film. She doesn't have a perfect life, she's a single mother too with a lot of problems, and she's very earthy and very energetic.



___________________________________________________________

http://top40.about.com/od/artistsaf/p/beyonceprofile.htm

As a very young girl, she dominated the church choir, shining as its top singer. Her father, Matthew Knowles, took an active hand in shaping her career, acting as her manager and coach.


_________________________________________________________

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/content_objectid=13153771_method=full_siteid=50143_headline=-GOD-S-GIFT-TO-BEYONCE-name_page.html

GOD'S GIFT TO BEYONCE Jul 8 2003


How this devout girl from Texas grew up to become one of the world's hottest stars .. Hallelujah!

From Tanith Carey Us Editor In New York


IF Beyonce Knowles is to be believed, it's not just Prince Charles and his sons who are big fans.

The singer, who wowed Charles by wearing red leather hotpants on Sunday, says that she has God to thank for everything, from her No.1 single to her "bootylicious" rear.

A devout Methodist, who calls everything a blessing and peppers her speech with Hallelujahs, Beyonce believes God is more relaxed about skin-tight outfits than we might previously have been led to believe.

In fact, the Destiny's Child singer sees no contradiction between her sensual appearance and her religious beliefs.

"I honestly believe He wants people to celebrate their bodies - as long as you don't compromise your Christianity in the process," says the 21-year-old star from Houston, Texas, who has rapidly amassed a £12million fortune.

Many things may have crossed the minds of those who saw Beyonce perform at the Party In The Park in London on the weekend... but it would be fair to say that religion wouldn't be one of them. According to Charles, Prince William is among those smitten by the star, whose first solo album, Dangerously In Love, is also No1.

As she stole the show in Hyde Park, it was clear that since her band began its sabbatical last year Beyonce has staged a sexual reinvention not seen since Kylie Minogue gave up being the girl next door.

But the singer, who prays every day, demurs when asked if her image is more provocative.

"I'm older now," she says. "I wouldn't say it's a little more sexy, it's just a little more different.

"God is the main person in my life and I would never do anything to offend Him. Because the three of us in the band are open about our faith, it has been easy for people to criticise.

"They say it is hypocritical to wear sexy clothes then sing about God but it's not like that at all."

Judging by her success, it might be a good idea for Britney and J-Lo to get on their knees to pray, too.

Beyonce is the latest diva on the block - and she is outshining them on every front.




__________________________________________________________
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-02/11/content_305045.htm


Born in 1981 to a loving family in Houston, Texas, Beyonce showed a gift for music before she could even talk. As a young girl, she would drown out everyone, including the church choir, on Sundays at church. Every weekend, she also took opera classes, in which she was classically trained.


do u want me to post the other 149, 996 results or will this do?

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

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http://instagram.com/firefire100
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 09:18 AM

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165. "and this proves what?"
In response to Reply # 164


  

          


_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Torez
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Tue Mar-01-05 09:40 AM

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169. "that your contention:"
In response to Reply # 165


  

          

>>they learn to sing “black” the same way their authenticity-seeking white peers do.<<<

doesn't apply to her. if she 'domintated the choir' it stands to reason that she learned to sing 'black' in said choir.

The only EVIDENCE you seem to have that she doesn't 'sing black' is that they don't sound like PURE GOSPEL singers to you. But that's on YOU.

All the evidence points to the idea that she learned how to 'sing black' in the choir, and that its in her repetoire. if she turns it down for her mainstream music, it doesn't mean that other folks can't hear the influence. and when you hear her LIVE, it comes out even more and confirms what i already knew.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The man of faith who has never experienced doubt is not a man of faith

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 09:42 AM

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171. "this is a bunch of PR material"
In response to Reply # 169


  

          

than actually serves to PROVE my point rather than refute it

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Torez
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Tue Mar-01-05 09:52 AM

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174. "to prove your point you need evidence"
In response to Reply # 171


  

          

that she didn't do what the 'pr' claims she did.

saying 'your honor, that evidence is clearly bullshit' prolly wouldn't go over in court, dawg.

just sayin'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The man of faith who has never experienced doubt is not a man of faith

  

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t510
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Tue Mar-01-05 10:00 AM

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178. "dude"
In response to Reply # 174


  

          

he's not saying its bullshit
he's saying it doesnt mean what it should mainly for the fact its something that's been hyped up and used by fite wolks in r&b to get their 'cred' and respect

ask yourself why you are arguing for him to admit he's wrong and that yonce (who isnt even the point of the post) is church bred...did it matter back then w/ marvin? isaac? even those who predated them? NO. they just had it. shit u can argue most black singers 'have it' (whatever it is-soul?) regardless of where 'it' was honed.

point is, 'it' being the church isnt really saying much...considering who has had to use it to get their props, and considering how yall are waging a pogrom on the thread for the shit, and for the fact that as secularized and NOT-church the content of today's music is, folks still fall back on the church to justify their talent

  

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fire
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Tue Mar-01-05 10:07 AM

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180. "afkap has led all of yall astray about my assertion"
In response to Reply # 178


          

& i don't appreciate him fucking lying on me

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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t510
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Tue Mar-01-05 10:11 AM

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183. "ur assertion and all past posts aside"
In response to Reply # 180


  

          

now that u know the point of what he's saying

do u agree or no
?

  

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fire
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Tue Mar-01-05 10:20 AM

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188. "no i dont agree with him"
In response to Reply # 183


          

he has some "valid" points, but to discount the black church's influence on modern r&b is imprudent & this post....., which could've been great aint nothing but half cocked and an attack against me.

i'm not doing this anymore.

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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t510
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Tue Mar-01-05 10:29 AM

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192. "u are making me tear my hair out"
In response to Reply # 188
Tue Mar-01-05 10:30 AM

  

          

he's not saying the church's influence is bullshit (or hey maybe he is...thats not what i gathered)...at this point its just a pass folks with a handicap (i.e. not black) use to get by in but we (meaning black folks) have taken this as some sort of necessary component for a good soul singer when 'we' would have been just as accepting of their music and talent if they werent from the church.

if the yonce WASNT from the church, she'd still be good, right?


  

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fire
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Tue Mar-01-05 11:09 AM

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205. "RE: u are making me tear my hair out"
In response to Reply # 192


          

>he's not saying the church's influence is bullshit (or hey
>maybe he is...thats not what i gathered)...at this point its
>just a pass folks with a handicap (i.e. not black) use to
>get by in but we (meaning black folks) have taken this as
>some sort of necessary component for a good soul singer when
>'we' would have been just as accepting of their music and
>talent if they werent from the church.
>
>if the yonce WASNT from the church, she'd still be good,
>right?

yes. i never said she wouldnt

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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t510
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Tue Mar-01-05 11:15 AM

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207. "I DIDNT SAY YOU DID! all im saying is"
In response to Reply # 205


  

          

that was his point. we never had to mystify or give a reason or origin to what we did musically until other people wanted to do our music too. and not only did we not reject the mystification (or whatever you want to call it), we now use it ourselves as a gauge for why a musician is good/bad

  

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GumDrops
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Tue Mar-01-05 10:29 AM

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193. "lol@the vanity"
In response to Reply # 188
Tue Mar-01-05 10:35 AM

  

          

this
>post....., which could've been great aint nothing but half
>cocked and an attack against me.

  

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Cre8
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Tue Mar-01-05 01:45 PM

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223. "HA!"
In response to Reply # 193


  

          

too funny

Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
To help: L9 Health Clinic http://www.commongroundrelief.org/node/242
DEADLINE: November 22, 2006
Please submit your recipes to playerscookbook@yahoo.com or inbox and don't forget PHOTOS.

*********************************

  

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GumDrops
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189. "but this post isnt about you"
In response to Reply # 180
Tue Mar-01-05 10:32 AM

  

          

he just used one thing you said as the basis for his argument. so what?

  

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fire
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Tue Mar-01-05 10:39 AM

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196. "watch tv instead of watching me"
In response to Reply # 189


          


________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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Jehan
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Tue Mar-01-05 10:08 AM

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181. "they didn't read it then, they won't read it now."
In response to Reply # 178


          

it's been clear from jump street that only a handful of us in this post can address it w/out catching the spirit.


|Fliteweight|

  

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SoWhat
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Tue Mar-01-05 09:53 AM

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175. "really though."
In response to Reply # 171


  

          


fuck you.

  

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DarkStar
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Tue Mar-01-05 09:44 AM

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172. "RE: The Myth of Black Church Singing/Rockism in Black Music"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Singer: "I started in the church."

Me: "Yeah--and you sucked THERE, TOO."

________________________________________
...white feather wings.

http://thelastdaysofrussell.bandcamp.com (soon - "Election Day on Monster Island")

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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179. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 172


  

          


_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Marbles
Member since Oct 19th 2004
22330 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 11:30 AM

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210. "Ding-ding-ding!!!"
In response to Reply # 172


  

          


How many times have you heard someone say that they grew up singing in the church and heard other folks be impressed?? I actually did grow up in the church and some of the most singingest people couldn't carry a tune in a bucket. Their voices were horrible.

Also remember this...if you grew up in the church, you know good and well that the old folks would "Amen" *ANYONE* who even stood up and tried to sing, no matter how bad they were. The old folks didn't care as long as you were uplifting the Lord with your voice.

Singing in Church does not equal talent or even soul.

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

  

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KangolLove
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Tue Mar-01-05 03:31 PM

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228. "End of post"
In response to Reply # 172


          


__________________________________________

  

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fire
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182. "fuck this post"
In response to Reply # 0


          


________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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187. "my dick is hard"
In response to Reply # 182


  

          

knowing that i've aroused such strong emotions in you and others

this post is a success. make sure it's archived!

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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SoWhat
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Tue Mar-01-05 10:21 AM

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190. "you are not right!"
In response to Reply # 187


  

          

lol

fuck you.

  

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fwmj
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Tue Mar-01-05 10:18 AM

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186. "i adore this post"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

www.fwmj.com | www.fwmj.com/word | www.fwmj.com/x | www.ohsonappy.com

"i think you know my homey, too... i.d.? he says you're a cool motherfucker - contrary to whatever else i hear." - Quidom

----------------------------------------
www.fwmj.co
@fwmj

  

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k_orr
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Tue Mar-01-05 10:26 AM

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191. "quick points"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

0. Technical ie "white singing" vs. Chu'uch Sanging

1. Rockism
2. Marketers/Critics today are using Rockism in a new context, connecting Black Pop singers with the Black Churck

Point of contention
- Yonce learned to sing in the church
- Yonce was raised to be the next winner on Star Search

Evidence
- Yonce says she sang in the church - against Affy
- Destiny's Child homemade video tapes - for Affy

Argument Against Afkap
- He's not black American enough to even comment
- He's not black American enough to know what to comment on to prove his point
- more "ad hominem"/standing arguments

Compromise on Afkap's part - "I never said NO influence"

SoWhat steps in for Afkap, since he's got the right pedigree
- turns fire's support against her - evidence of how much koolaid has been drank
- fire backpedals on her argument to address Sowhat, and focuses on the fact that Vh-1's driven did not show Yonce in the church - suggesting that if they did - Younce would have church cred

Question becomes, which dominated more of Yonce's musical education, Singing in the Church or Singing for Star Search?

Interesting sidelines
- Marvin Gaye has Church - But did not grow up in the Black Church being referred to in this thread
- Levert - Learned to sing by watching his father, not the church. But Father was a Gospel man.
- Numerous other R&B acts, whom folks "hear church in".
- Warren - does Warren
- Wendell - sorta agrees with Afkap, but not sure
- Gumdrops and Bongo - 2 avid contributors are basically sidelined because they have less nigger cred than Afkap. Though they get to put in a few quips

__________________________

As for my take
- real life cred - street cred in hip hop, church cred in R&B.

Does it make a difference to sales? To the quality of the art?

- Underlying this whole concept, to me at least, is the idea that black people are merely spiritual beings, and that there is little if any thought/logic that goes into our art. I.E, we only have souls and not brains, relegating black people to mere savages. The only way we can create art is by channelling these raw emotions, brought on By God, or by "the streets".

all this talk of polish vs unpolish....

Yet seemingly there was a post about Al Green I believe, in which folks wanted to dissect his "soulful" performance as being calculated, so calculated, that so called "real niggas" really couldn't tell the difference. (but that one trailed off into some crap about performance, and I would say "channelling")

- The average public, even a specialized group like this, doesn't do well with abstract ideas. This post really isn't about Beyonce or Joss Stone, yet that's all that people can seem to talk about.

Can this topic be discussed w.o focusing one a handful of artists? I can understand the need to make things concrete, to see if the theory holds, but seemingly no one can think about this in terms of 20-30 artists.

Interesting thread though.

one
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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194. "i REALLY wanna talk about this in another post:"
In response to Reply # 191


  

          

>- Underlying this whole concept, to me at least, is the idea
>that black people are merely spiritual beings, and that
>there is little if any thought/logic that goes into our art.
> I.E, we only have souls and not brains, relegating black
>people to mere savages. The only way we can create art is
>by channelling these raw emotions, brought on By God, or by
>"the streets".

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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afrobongo
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Tue Mar-01-05 10:39 AM

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195. "word"
In response to Reply # 194


          

______________________________

*TWINNING*


  

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t510
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Tue Mar-01-05 10:43 AM

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197. "yup. 179 i fell into that trap"
In response to Reply # 194


  

          

there is this idea that we have 'something' that makes us make music how we do..which again, we take from those who have created this idea and used it as a marker for what is credible in our own music

  

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Boy Wonder
Member since Oct 31st 2003
5055 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 02:30 PM

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227. "pls whatever you do AFKAP"
In response to Reply # 194


  

          


do not start that post tomorrow - I gotta be out the whole day -I dont want the scraps....
_____________________________

BREAKBEAT PRODUCTIONS (BBP) PRESENTS: MARLEY RIDDIM E.P

COMING SOON ON AWAKENING RECORDINGS....(2nd QUARTER 2005)

Uh oh they gave us a soundclick page....
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/breakbeatproductions.htm

How beautiful is Jill Scott? The answer: Unfathomable.

"If I dont like it I dont like/it dont mean that im hating" - Common

Top 10 albums I heard from 2004:



**1. KEANE - HOPES AND FEARS**
(comments coming later)

2. JILL SCOTT - BEAUTIFULLY HUMAN
(comments coming later)

3. KLASHNEKOFF - THE SAGAS OF....
(comments coming later)

4. TEEDRA MOSES - COMPLEX SIMPLICITY
(comments coming later)

5. ASH - MELTDOWN
(comments coming later)

6. MURS - MURS 3:16 THE 9TH EDITION
(comments coming later)

7. KANYE WEST - COLLEGE DROPOUT
(comments coming later)

8. RAPHAEL SADDIQ - AS RAY RAY
(comments coming later)

9. EMBRACE - OUT OF NOTHING
(comments coming later)

10. THE KILLERS - HOT FUSS
(comments coming later)



5 that nearly made it to the big 10:

1. Nas -Streets Disciple
2. Van Hunt - Van Hunt
3. Ghostface - The Pretty Toney LP
4. The Roots - Tipping Point
5. R.Kelly - Happy People/You Saved Me

Honourable Mentions (good music released in 2004 in no particular order):

Estelle - The 18th Day
Dizzee Rascal - Showtime
Dead Prez - RBG
Secret Machines - Now Here Is Nowhere
Mos Def - The New Danger
Usher - Confessions
Brandy - Afrodisiac
Razorlight - Up All Night
The Music - Welcome To The North
Talib Kweli - Beautiful Struggle
De La Soul - The Grind Date
Kelis - Tasty
The Zutons - Who Killed The Zutons?
Anthony Hamilton - Comin' From Where I'm From
Norah Jones - Feels Like Home (SE)
RJD2 - Since I Last Spoke
Pete Rock - Soul Survivor 2
*newly added* Manic St Preachers - Lifeblood
*newly added* Interpol -Antics
*newly added* The Prodigy - Always Outnumbered, Never Outgunned

Currently reading:
The Pathology of Eurocentrism - Charles Wm. Ephraim

UHURU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Red, Black and F****** Green For Life.

_____________________________
patiently waiting for the Pumpkins to come back...

http://breakbeatproductions.blogspot.com

  

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SoWhat
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Tue Mar-01-05 10:49 AM

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199. "new OKP mandate: all plat posts need a re-cap like this."
In response to Reply # 191


  

          

>As for my take
>- real life cred - street cred in hip hop, church cred in
>R&B.
>
>Does it make a difference to sales? To the quality of the
>art?

sales?...in hip-hop it seems to. i highly doubt so many of us would've taken to NWA if we knew where Dre and Cube grew up for real. in R&B, not so much...and i say that b/c there aren't concerted efforts to disprove anyone's church cred the way some go out of their way to discredit rappers (see: Jay-Z & Prodigy, 50 & Ja Rule).

quality...emphatic 'no' on both counts.

>- Underlying this whole concept, to me at least, is the idea
>that black people are merely spiritual beings, and that
>there is little if any thought/logic that goes into our art.
> I.E, we only have souls and not brains, relegating black
>people to mere savages. The only way we can create art is
>by channelling these raw emotions, brought on By God, or by
>"the streets".

i agree completely.

>all this talk of polish vs unpolish....
>
>Yet seemingly there was a post about Al Green I believe, in
>which folks wanted to dissect his "soulful" performance as
>being calculated, so calculated, that so called "real
>niggas" really couldn't tell the difference. (but that one
>trailed off into some crap about performance, and I would
>say "channelling")

i remember that 1. it was good.

>- The average public, even a specialized group like this,
>doesn't do well with abstract ideas. This post really isn't
>about Beyonce or Joss Stone, yet that's all that people can
>seem to talk about.

...yeah.

>Can this topic be discussed w.o focusing one a handful of
>artists? I can understand the need to make things concrete,
>to see if the theory holds, but seemingly no one can think
>about this in terms of 20-30 artists.

i'm at the point where i immediately disbelieve artists who talk about their church upbringing just like i disbelieve those who claim to have been gangstas (i see you, Ray J). to me it's all hype and it seems folks are trying to latch onto the cred bestowed upon legends from the past (i hear you, Aretha)...Fire even said Yonce's church roots place her in the company of Black music legends. since we live in a time where artists are so uber-aware of the bizz i just can't believe media kit material anymore.

can we (the Lesson) talk about this church cred phenomenon? i hope so.

fuck you.

  

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Jehan
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10000 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 11:04 PM

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238. "that's precisely what this post was intended as."
In response to Reply # 199


          

>can we (the Lesson) talk about this church cred phenomenon?
>i hope so.

clearly we (not me an' you per se, but 'we') can't.


|Fliteweight|

  

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Cre8
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17379 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 01:53 PM

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224. "good break down"
In response to Reply # 191


  

          

*conts. readin*

Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
To help: L9 Health Clinic http://www.commongroundrelief.org/node/242
DEADLINE: November 22, 2006
Please submit your recipes to playerscookbook@yahoo.com or inbox and don't forget PHOTOS.

*********************************

  

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GumDrops
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26088 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 10:46 AM

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198. "."
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Mar-01-05 10:50 AM

  

          


  

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afrobongo
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33968 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 10:52 AM

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200. "don't be scared ! it's not like you live in"
In response to Reply # 198


          


Scotland !
______________________________

*TWINNING*


  

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GumDrops
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26088 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 10:59 AM

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203. "nah, im done - see reply 58!"
In response to Reply # 200


  

          


  

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lingo
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61467 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 10:58 AM

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201. "Captain Save a Jo"
In response to Reply # 0


          

.

  

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OldPro
Member since Dec 10th 2002
34401 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 10:58 AM

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202. "This is true of rappers too"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"I don’t doubt that these singers actually grew up going to church, or that they might have even sung in church, but the fact is that at this point in time the majority of black singers are more influenced by radio/MTV/BET than any kind of “pure” church tradition. In other words, they learn to sing “black” the same way their authenticity-seeking white peers do."

Just replace "church" with "streets" and there you go. I agree with AFKAP on most of these points by the way. I just don't need Beyonce to have any sort of "pass" to know she is a better signer than Joss Stone. But really it's just all a matter of taste.


_________________________________

  

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greg_soundz
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Tue Mar-01-05 11:14 AM

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206. "my thoughts...and some perspective"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

First off I have to agree with AFKAP concerning one particular point. The whole "I grew up in church" mantra has become more of a PR tactic rather than a 100% true statement. It has at times become sickening and makes me not want to mention my own church background to avoid being lumped in that category. Those of us who really grew up in the culture can spot a faker in a heartbeat and there are a number of Black singers out there who obviously have very little if any tangible church training.

With that said I think it is important to look at how church training is seen/heard in any singer today who's background is credible. At the point that most young singers encounter Gospel music today we have to keep in mind the changes that the music has gone through from the 80's to now. One constant in Gospel music has always been its interaction or flirtation with secular music. This dates back to Thomas Dorsey (of course), can be heard in the music of James Cleveland (rewriting Gladys Knight and The Pips hit, "The Best Thing That Ever Happened" for example), and the careers of The Hawkins Family or Andrae Crouch. With the success of the Hawkins' and Crouch, came the emergence of "Contemporary Gospel" in the late 70s/80s. The most influential group to emerge (IMO) were The Winans. What we saw and heard in their music was a continuation of what Hawkins and Crouch had started as well as cited influences like Rance Allen. As the musical mind behind The Winans, Marvin Winans displayed a new vocal style that referenced the classic church sound when needed but also showed us he had been exposed to a wide body of Black and other types of secular music---this became even more evident in the career of his brother Bebe who had a classic old school church upbringing but his voice lacks most if not all of the typical "Gospel" sound. The early 80s also brought us the ultimate female Gospel group, The Clark Sisters. When I think about runs, melisma, and "crazy" vibrato, I think about Twinkie, Karen, Dorinda, and Jacque. I place these woman at the root of any and all fascination and the ultimate popularization of runs (Daryl Coley should be somewhere in there too). Yet another group that MUST be mentioned is Commissioned. These brothers sought to bring an even "edgier" sound to "Contemporary Gospel" and continued to challenge the idea of what Black Gospel is or should be.

Much of the so-called church or Gospel sound that we hear today in modern-R&B is largely due to the music of The Clark Sisters and Commissioned (IMO). I know some of you want to give Kim Burrell some credit here but I'm strictly talking bout roots---she ain't no pioneer. In conjuction with the Contemporary Gospel influence we have a generation that has grown up with MTV/BET. Naturally this adds a new dimension to today's sound and oftentimes masks the church's influence however it should not in anyway lead the listener to question the credibility of that influence. A perfect example of how the overt and covert ways "the church" can show up in modern R&B is the music of Boys II Men and Jodeci. Given the smooth doo-wop harmonies and Pop success of BIIM one would immediately say there was no church influence however Wanya's vocals alone show us the classic use of "runs" for effect an emotion that have no other reference point except the church. Overall I think BIIM's music masks the church influence. On the opposite side of the coin is Jodeci with lead singer K-Ci. His voice was obviously "church" but could have easily been developed from listening to Blues records and a lot of Bobby Womack. K-Ci also went as far as biting Commissioned on one of Jodeci's songs singing the line "My arms are open wide, and I don't have to cry..." a direct reference to Commissioned's "Running Back To You". While Jodeci's church influence was obvious to many, to others their overtly sexual lyrics and "thug" image led some to attribute their sound/style to the streets rather than the pews.

These are just a few thoughts...I'm really feeling this post BTW...

----------------------------
http://www.broadjam.com/gregsoundz

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/13379233

"...the problem is that you Americans
think poetry is democratic, that
anyone can write. It's not--it's
aristocratic"
Derek Walcott

-----------------------------------
"much obliged" - Bubs

follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/soundz714

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Mar-01-05 01:02 PM

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220. "thanks... that was some valuable input."
In response to Reply # 206


  

          


_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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The Money Man
Member since Feb 27th 2004
13938 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 11:15 AM

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208. "This is a great post"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the exchanges are priceless

LOL at afkap not being nigger enough

  

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lonesome_d
Charter member
30443 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 11:25 AM

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209. "Can we get a Suggested Listening list for this post?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Or equally plausibly, a counter-point suggested listening list from the folks who disagree...

It seems to me the point should be fairly easily proved or disproved aurally.

(That said, I have Melanie's 'Candles In the Rain' on in my car now - featuring the Edwin Hawkins Singers for gauranteed authenticity!)

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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fire
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111370 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 11:32 AM

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211. "i contribute"
In response to Reply # 209


          

fantasias whole album
ruben studdards albums
jaheims albums
all kci& jojo albums
all dru hill albums
all faith evans albums
niveas music
r kelly all day
brandy brandy brandy

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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lonesome_d
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Tue Mar-01-05 11:49 AM

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212. "The problem i see with this list"
In response to Reply # 211


          

is that there is nothing to build a valid comparison on.

I think a chronology of sorts - to present listeners with the continuum you feel exists - would be more to the point than a random list of current singers you feel exhibit the Church in their music.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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fire
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111370 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 11:57 AM

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215. "i'm not doing no more expounding in this post"
In response to Reply # 212


          


________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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SoWhat
Charter member
154163 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 11:55 AM

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214. "i went through the post."
In response to Reply # 209


  

          

- the 1st few paragraphs are about folks like Eric Clapton, Bruce Springsteen, Bob Dylan, Nirvana, and Tom Petty. i'm not familiar enough w/their stuff to make recommendations...especially not here!

- then comes Keeping Ahead of Whitey: Bebop..."Groovin High", Dizzy G; Soul..."This Little Girl of Mine", Ray Charles

- Whitey catches up: "Please Mr. Postman", The Beatles; "Tutti Frutti", Pat Boone; "You Can't Always Get What You Want", Rolling Stones; "I Want To Know What Love Is", Foreigner (?)

- and Blacks co-opt the trend too: "I Wish" "I Believe.."& "Gotham City", R Kelly.

- Black church singing becomes something anyone can do: "Impossible", Christina Aguilera

- Blacks more influenced by BET/MTV than church, they're faking church just like Whitey: "Dangerously In Love" (Live Version), Beyonce; "Make It Happen", Mariah Carey

- Beyonce: VH1's "Driven: Beyonce"

- few contemporary singers who sound like church: "You Used To Love Me", Faith; "Friend of Mine" (original), Kelly Price

- church draws from MTV/BET: "Stomp", God's Property

fuck you.

  

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Wendell
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Tue Mar-01-05 12:11 PM

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216. "last point"
In response to Reply # 214


          

>- church draws from MTV/BET: "Stomp", God's Property

There was a huge backlash against Kirk Franklin and his sound, which brought about Donnie McClurkin and those types, who have a more traditional sound. I really think the younger artists are where the influence shows, but even they change once the "get" what they are singing about.


Peace

Wendell

  

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swinger3421
Member since Mar 09th 2003
21080 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 11:54 AM

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213. "This post needs Jesus."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

And frankly, it woulda been a lot better without the examples of Joss and B. Really all they served to do was bring in all the connotations and knee-jerk emotionality those two figures are associated with around here.

<--- Now with all six members. You ain't dunnt.

Dunnt Affiliates: firebrand, muzik macks, beholdme, lanivishnu....

Lost in .

OH THE IRONY

CANCEL YOUR TOUR

i suggest all "fans" save their money

you can view your shit while looking in the mirror jacking off
and telling yourself how great you are

  

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fire
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111370 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 12:15 PM

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218. "jesus didn't grow up in the blk church"
In response to Reply # 213


          

:0)

it didn't need joss, b & fire in the thesis statement....it would've fared MUCH better

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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swinger3421
Member since Mar 09th 2003
21080 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 12:32 PM

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219. ";op"
In response to Reply # 218


  

          

<--- Now with all six members. You ain't dunnt.

Dunnt Affiliates: firebrand, muzik macks, beholdme, lanivishnu....

Lost in .

OH THE IRONY

CANCEL YOUR TOUR

i suggest all "fans" save their money

you can view your shit while looking in the mirror jacking off
and telling yourself how great you are

  

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Whateva
Member since Jul 07th 2003
4637 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 04:05 PM

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229. "You're waaaaay off in your last statement."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"And to be honest, i wonder about the existence of any “pure” church singing tradition at this point in general. Especially since over the past decade or so, the Church has actually been drawing heavily from radio/MTV/BET in order to reach out to the disaffected youth and halt the rapid “graying” of the Black Church."

Wonder about the existence? A graying Black church? Are you kidding me? So you're saying in black churches they're rapping and singing RNB now to gain members?

I think if you actually visited real black churches, you'd know that the "black church singing tradition" is definitely alive and will never die. It's always been about putting your all, through your voice or instrument, into praising God. It was never about entertainment.It's a wreckless, boundless, shameless worship of the highest form of good; the creator. As long as black people believe and praise God, that sound will never disappear. Never. Churches will continue to teach "make a joyful noise unto the lord." so it'll always be about singing (or playing music) to praise God.

Seems to me like you're basing your conclusion on the popular Christian music market or maybe some BET television sermon.

***************************************
"Science" and Religion are the two most dangerous weapons of ideology. See holocaust.

Why do "scientists" constantly produce statistics based on "race", a social construct?

  

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Soulbrotha
Member since Feb 18th 2004
7401 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 06:51 PM

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231. "WOW"
In response to Reply # 229


  

          

Only an African could cause this much ruckus with one post.

*skedaddles out of thread*

"Do to others what you would others have done unto you." - The Lord Jesus Christ

SB Video: http://www.youtube.com/soulbrothavideo
SB tweet:www.twitter.com/soulb

  

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AnaStezia
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45338 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 07:29 PM

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232. "He's not way off at all."
In response to Reply # 229


          

Not that it matters at this point. I've seen plenty of black churches that try to keep the young people interested by branching out into more secular sounding church music. AND I've been to plenty of black churches with dwindling memberships because they did nothing to attract young people.


  

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Whateva
Member since Jul 07th 2003
4637 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 08:09 PM

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233. "Complete Idiocy."
In response to Reply # 232


  

          

That's all well and good darling, but I simply can't take you seriously at this point. Any church that uses anything other than God to build a congregation is is not a real church. It's a club or a small business. I'm sorry, but you haven't been attending churches.

A real church would know that attracting younger people isn't the problem now. The problem is a world that is believing less in the idea of an all powerful God. People in general don't feel compelled to attend.

I've attended four different churches in my lifetime and all four were of a pretty large size, never had problems with attendance. They have all had problems accomodating a swiftly growing membership.

Probably members leaving churches like the ones you've attended.

What I've noticed about each one is that they really and truly stress God first and all else second. Which meant, they never catered to the secular outside. That's like marketing Jesus. That's trying to sell something that doesn't need to be sold.

The general philosophy of the churches I've attended was that "the outside conforms to us and not us to them." It works the way it has always worked.

Who goes to church to listen to music anyway?

Even young impressionable kids understand you go to church to worship God. That's probably why the membership dropped in the "churches" you've attended.

Once again, you and he are way off in your assumptions.



***************************************
"Science" and Religion are the two most dangerous weapons of ideology. See holocaust.

Why do "scientists" constantly produce statistics based on "race", a social construct?

  

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AnaStezia
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Tue Mar-01-05 09:00 PM

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236. "Complete Idiocy is correct"
In response to Reply # 233


          

you are a complete idiot to believe that yours is the only possible frame of reference. If you can't even fathom a church losing members, then I can't take you seriously either.


  

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Whateva
Member since Jul 07th 2003
4637 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 09:21 PM

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237. "You on crack."
In response to Reply # 236
Tue Mar-01-05 09:28 PM

  

          

"And to be honest, i wonder about the existence of any “pure” church singing tradition at this point in general"

With the thousands of black churches in the USA right now, he's basically questioning whether any of them haven't given in and started catering to secular tastes in music. This is an idiotic and ignorant statement at best and you're a complete bumbling idiot for suggesting he's right. I don't see how any sane person could take this statement seriously.

He's way off in concluding that almost all churches are probably borrowing from the secular world. If he said "too many are" than maybe we have a real discussion. He's flat out wrong and you are too.

***************************************
"Science" and Religion are the two most dangerous weapons of ideology. See holocaust.

Why do "scientists" constantly produce statistics based on "race", a social construct?

  

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3121
Member since Feb 16th 2005
51 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 08:30 PM

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234. "Who gives a fuck?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

y u gotta write all that bullshit
does it really even matter?
the biggest myth is black people thinking they invented every genere of music
thikning they invented eveything that exists
why, last night I heard George Washington was the first black president
in the end
Beyonce is gonna be one big fat ass solid singer like all the rest of em: Patti, Aretha,
and Joss Stone, hell she will go away like all the other wigger singer chicks and start singing pop numbers

My band is endorsed by AFKAP:

aka the crazy nigga
endorsement
aka a nigga done gone mad
endorsement
aka a nigga like to bone me
in the ass endorsement
aka a what the fuck was that
nigga drinking endorsement
aka wild homo endorsement
aka a

  

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Whateva
Member since Jul 07th 2003
4637 posts
Tue Mar-01-05 08:34 PM

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235. "Uhhh....Stormfront.com?"
In response to Reply # 234


  

          

nm

***************************************
"Science" and Religion are the two most dangerous weapons of ideology. See holocaust.

Why do "scientists" constantly produce statistics based on "race", a social construct?

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Mar-03-05 03:04 AM

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239. "ARCHIVE IT."
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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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