for those who are currently in either program, or to those who have graduated from each respective program...i would be quite grateful to hear the following:

a./ has the program qualified you for the desired opportunities you had in mind when you pursued such a degree?

b./ how important is achieving a high GPA in these programs to prospective employers?

c./ how did you go about choosing the program of study?

finally...i'm in between wanting to pursue an MBA or a J.D., and quite frankly, am having a difficult time assessing which one might be more fitting for myself, my intellectual faculties, and my career-goals.

If i were to choose a law-degree, estate law (trusts, wills, real estate) would be my focus.

if i were to choose an MBA degree, simply, i'd just want it to help me make more money.

I'm trying to soak up your experiences, please do tell.

-->

Breathe through the nose
keep the mouth closed.
Through the blood
Chi goes where the dow flows.

I'm currently debating the two right now, myself. I was leaning towards a JD/MBA joint degree but I'm shying away from the JD in general right now.

From a "building wealth" perspective, I'm probably better off progressing in my field (tech consulting) for another 5-10 years vs earning a JD in 5 years and then working for another 5. I will likely be approaching the stating salary of the average law school grad in 4 years but I won't have the 100's of thousands of school debt weighing me down. Plus I'll have 5 extra years to invest and save, which can make a big difference.

The career potential in law is greater though. It's a skill set that doesn;t go obsolete nearly as fast as tech skills. You can also practice until you're very old and grey.

The MBA fits more with my line of work but I'd be doing it more for the connections than the education (since the education can easily be gained on your own). It's also alot easier to get a company to subsidize an MBA so the debt issue isn't quite as large.

What are the main reasons you're considering practicing law? You sound more like you're interested inceasing your income potential than anything else. I don't see anything wrong with that (considering that's the mentality of *most of the lawyers I've met) but you should re-evaluate your potential in your current industry and weigh the costs of going into law before jumping in.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

but you seem to be on the right path...

best of luck to you, and thanks for the response.

-->

Breathe through the nose
keep the mouth closed.
Through the blood
Chi goes where the dow flows.

to be perfectly honest with you it's best to gain real world experience in the field you think you might want to seek an advanced degree in first, before making that type of investment (timewise and financially). I had addressed this issue on this board before. A lot of younger people make the "career" mistake by getting scared of how the job market looks right now when they graduate and they run and hide in grad or law schools without gaining any real experience in the field they're going to specialize in. You can have 17 advanced degrees but without relevant experience, you're practically useless (unless you've recieved patents for some bio atomic sub partical type *ish in grad or med school...lol). My route was simple, worked in my field since my freshman year of college, graduated at 22, started working full time for my current employer and now have over 6 years or relevant job experience to offer any potential employer at the ripe old age of 25. But to answer your ?'s more specifically:

>a./ has the program qualified you for the desired
>opportunities you had in mind when you pursued such a
>degree?


Depends on what YOUR goals are career wise. If you have entrepreneurial goals and aspirations an MBA might not be for you. It's goal is to polish you for the corporate/non profit business world...although they do have programs that specialize in entreprenuerism, I think it's a waste of money.



>b./ how important is achieving a high GPA in these programs
>to prospective employers?

I can see this being relative for the J.D. Also, along with grades, where you attended law school may factor into the hiring selection if your goal is to work at some big firm and practice court room law. Grades really don't determine your sucess in business world, it's what you have retained and how you can apply those theoretical practices to real world situations...i.e. common sense.



>c./ how did you go about choosing the program of study?
>

I'm pursuing a dual degree right now...an MBA in Marketing and a Masters in International Management. My ultimate goal is to build up enough money, experience, and connections through corporate america so that one day I can eventually branch out on my own and become my own boss and be as self sufficient as I possibly can. I also believe that an MBA was better for me because it's more transferable for job to job. My major was communications in college and it has helped me out immensely in my career because it didn't allow me to pigeon hole myself into one set job definition...I was allowed to market myself in a way that other majors couldn't. Although initially off the jump, my entry level pay was considerably less than say a new software developer out of college, in the long run I have more options career wise. It's something you have weigh for yourself.

>finally...i'm in between wanting to pursue an MBA or a J.D.,
>and quite frankly, am having a difficult time assessing
>which one might be more fitting for myself, my intellectual
>faculties, and my career-goals.

Only you can satisfy your intellectual thirst...no degree with complete that. Self study, discipline and meditation helps.

Herb & Soul Gastro Cafe & Lounge

www.HerbandSoul.net

and your hustle.

-->

Breathe through the nose
keep the mouth closed.
Through the blood
Chi goes where the dow flows.

I say go with a JD but I am biased. Here is my argument never the less.

1. A JD is a gatekeeper degree that allows you to do all sorts of things that a person without a JD can't.
2. Everything you need to know in Business you can learn at most good law schools. Not true the other way around.
3. An MBA is only as good as the job you get afterwards. A lwayer no matter what, can always throw up a shingle after law school and start a practice.
4. I took a couple of Business school course and had the feeling that, besides accountant and similar stuff, you don't learn anything in Business school you won't learn on the J-O-B or from reading business week magazine every week.

All this adds up to a JD being a more versatile degree IMHOP. ANd I think this pans out in the real world when you see so many people in a wide range of fields with a JD. BTW a JD is only 3 years in the states. the person who said 5 doesn't know what he talking about.

**********

Reality check: according to the 2000 census, there were more than 31,000 black
physicians and surgeons, 33,000 black lawyers and 5,000 black dentists.
Guess how many black athletes are playing professional basketball, football
and baseball combined. About 1,400. In fact, there are more board-certified
black cardiologists than there are black professional basketball players.

**********
"naive as the dry leaves on the ground looking past the trees to the blue sky asking 'why me?'" -Blu

Why I still fuzz with the Lesson
http://open.spotify.com/user/brothersport86/playlist/3DhEhilho77Z0UCPbJlEJf

I guess I wasn't clear. I'd be shooting for starting in fall 2006 so it would be a year before I could get in. Then another 4 to get the dual degree.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

I have an undergraduate business degree and I recently received my JD.

I felt that I wouldn't learn *that* much more in an MBA program. Ultimately I will be an entrepenuer and that MBA won't be of as much use to me. My JD on the other hand will be quite useful.

I paid attention to many people who I think are quite successful (and wealthy) and many have JD degrees and are entrepenuers.

Basically, I feel that my JD will give me more options.

****
"I'm a fly young man, check my wingspan."

****
R.I.P. Sean Taylor

i've read your posts..and have been thoroughly impressed w/ your productivity...curious as to how old you are.

and u know i'm still trying to peep the beats.

-->

Breathe through the nose
keep the mouth closed.
Through the blood
Chi goes where the dow flows.

Thanks. You're impressed but I feel like I'm not doing enough. I still don't feel like I'm *hustling* enough. I need a bit more direction now that I actually have my JD.


Oh and I got you on the beats, I still have your info in my inbox. My partner has been so busy performing that he's hardly in the studio anymore.

****
"I'm a fly young man, check my wingspan."

****
R.I.P. Sean Taylor

>Thanks. You're impressed but I feel like I'm not doing
>enough. I still don't feel like I'm *hustling* enough. I
>need a bit more direction now that I actually have my JD.

wow..having a JD at 26 is mightily impressive...but i feel u, and it's good to be striving and feeling like u need to be more strong on the hustle...best of luck on all your endeavors...i'm 24 right now, and am trying to get into law school this coming year...you make me feel like i'm behind.

>Oh and I got you on the beats, I still have your info in my
>inbox. My partner has been so busy performing that he's
>hardly in the studio anymore.

good look...i reckon that's a good thing that your man is busy performing...but i'm def curious as to what kinda heat he's got on the beats.

-->

Breathe through the nose
keep the mouth closed.
Through the blood
Chi goes where the dow flows.

What school are are you trying to go to? I went to Catholic.
You work for a law firm if I remember, that will look great on your application.

****
"I'm a fly young man, check my wingspan."

****
R.I.P. Sean Taylor

>What school are are you trying to go to? I went to
>Catholic.
>You work for a law firm if I remember, that will look great
>on your application.

I'm actually looking @ Catholic as well....also am looking at American, GWU (stretch school), George Mason, and Temple (another stretch).

My GPA in college was just average (3.2, altho 3.8 in major concentration courses), so i'll need a big time LSAT score to get into the schools I want to go to.

And yes, I work for Foley & Lardner (Intellectual Property)

How was your experience @ Catholic?

-->

Breathe through the nose
keep the mouth closed.
Through the blood
Chi goes where the dow flows.

It was cool. I was a night student working a full time gig so that made it a lot tougher. The students were cool for the most part, but there was a lot of tunrover in the administration during my 3.5 years. It looks like they are getting a tighter grip on things now.

The thing about law school is that the students make or break it, not the professors. The students are the driving force behind what you get out of class.

I will say that it is way too expensive, especially since they have slipped in thier ranking.

****
"I'm a fly young man, check my wingspan."

****
R.I.P. Sean Taylor

Edit

~~~
Washington DC, Home of Taxation Without Representation. Check it out

www.dcvote.org

"When you hear a man talking, then,
always inquire as to what he is doing
or what he has done for humanity."

Carter G. Woodson

He was in litigation for about 10 years, then he became a CFO at a small company, now he's managing several different projects supporting the military.

You'd swear he's a lifetime soldier though with the depth of his knowledge he's built in just 5 years. I figure he prepared for this job just like he used to prepare for court.

He doesn't know a damn thing about technology though lol

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

thanks for this. Very helpful.

-->

Breathe through the nose
keep the mouth closed.
Through the blood
Chi goes where the dow flows.

Personally, I think that the market is glutted with Lawyers and MBAs and how far you go with either degree is very dependent on the person, your first job starting out and where you went to school.

After all, there are MBAs working jobs that reasonably talented people could get with BAs and Lawyers who hung out a shingle and aren't doing too well.

While I agree with you as to the versatility of the JD, I think you glossed over the value of an MBA with respect to the financial analysis and accounting skills you can pick up. Running a business is about analyzing opportunities, picking areas to invest in, managing capital, etc - having those financial skills can be invaluable, particularly for a entrepreneur.

The caveat is that those skills have to be in the right hands, many MBAs are blessed with a wealth of tactical skills and no real idea as to how to apply them. Not to mention believing that they know far more than they think they do and that they don't have to learn or really analyze a situation, they can just plug in a paragraph from one of their textbooks.

This is not to say that Lawyer's don't have a tendency to think they know it all too, but I will say that a Lawyer's natural perpensity towards analysis will often lead them in the right direction (with respect to a business problem), but having the additional analysis skills that many MBAs have can be valuable.

I think people just need to look at their current skillset, career path and determine which one would be more valuable and/or if they should get both. If you're already working in accounting, Mgt. Consulting or the finance industry (or in business in general) at a fairly high level, an MBA could be your ticket to the executive ranks.

As for me personally........

Deciding what to do with respect to pursuing an MBA, JD or both presents a somewhat murky picture and really depends on what I want to do with my career:

-Work in Corporate Finance & Business Development, where the ladder refers to using financial skills to analyze/identify potential opportunities and make high level strategic decisions/recommendations.

-Marketing & Biz-Dev - where the former is obvious and the latter is related to Business Development described above, but relates more to Sales & Marketing, product positioning, developing opportunities, etc.

-Go into Investment Banking, M & A advisory work, Private Equity, etc.

-Go back into Mgt. Consulting, which I did without an MBA, but having one would make me more marketable in that field.

At the moment, I don't have an answer and am still deciding what to do.

An MBA is conceivably all I need to jump into the exec ranks/get to my boss' level. Still, I could get one and remain at the same level I am now, plus there is the issue that there aren't many schools I could to where the Avg. Graduate earns more than me. Which makes the ROI picture difficult as I could conceivably lose money on the deal as lost wages, cost for the degree and than end up making a near lateral move as far as income at my post MBA job.

If I leave "the game" for three years to get a JD, than I'm basically committing to becoming a Lawyer, (at the corporate level at least - only law I'm interested in) and it's a better income picture. BUT, do I want to lose three years of income and career advancement (or two more than getting an MBA) and perhaps be in a similar place in the medium term, but have more options?

To be honest, my usual decisive self hasn't a clue as to my decision will be.



Peace,









M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

>I say go with a JD but I am biased. Here is my argument never
>the less.
>
>1. A JD is a gatekeeper degree that allows you to do all
>sorts of things that a person without a JD can't.

I don't know if that's true or not.

>2. Everything you need to know in Business you can learn at
>most good law schools. Not true the other way around.

I don't really think that's possible. You may have a base on some topics, but there's no way you can get the depth of an MBA with a few business oriented courses. But, again...I could be wrong. I need some more information and examples.

>3. An MBA is only as good as the job you get afterwards. A
>lwayer no matter what, can always throw up a shingle after law
>school and start a practice.

I'm actually looking to leave the "job" soon after getting my MBA. I'm picking up what I can to become an entrepreneur, and possible a small business advisor. That's a single you can throw up also, without any other paper(being bared). I'm learning things constantly that help me run the business I already have in motion.

>4. I took a couple of Business school course and had the
>feeling that, besides accountant and similar stuff, you don't
>learn anything in Business school you won't learn on the J-O-B
>or from reading business week magazine every week.

This is the most biased comment of all. If this was true, there would be no need for an MBA. And, it wouldn't carry the weight that it does.

>All this adds up to a JD being a more versatile degree IMHOP.
>ANd I think this pans out in the real world when you see so
>many people in a wide range of fields with a JD. BTW a JD is
>only 3 years in the states. the person who said 5 doesn't know
>what he talking about.

Even lawyers run a business. And, business people need legal guidance. They're seperate disciplines because to truly understand and get into the meat of it, you have to get deeper and wider, and that takes time, practice and exposure.

I think you're limiting the options available to an MBA. I can't disagree about the JD, because I don't know enough about it.

======
FLASH!!

.

He doesnt know which one he wants to pursue. His undergrad degree is in Poly Sci and I think he's leaning a lot towards the JD, but recently starting thinking about an MBA.

As far as experience goes, if you dont have much job experience, which degree would be easier to find a job with?

An MBA can be near useless in the hands of someone who doesn't come in without a lot of business knowledge and experience, so chances are, he'll have skills and little idea of how to use them.

With a JD, he'll be a Lawyer and the education will teach him how to use the knowledge he's picked up in school.


Peace,









M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

i don't know about other areas of the country, but here in DC, worst case scenario, you could at least be a legal temp and get gigs lasting a month or two at time, around 30/hour, 50-60 hours/week, once you pass the bar.

if you don't pass the bar, you could be an overqualified paralegal at a company that provides litigation support staffing. again, this is DC. not sure how the rest of the country rolls.

hanging out the shingle can get you a decent wage out the gate too. there are plenty of niche areas of law where you can basically do the same thing all day long and pull in good money (immigration, wills, etc).
____

This Week's "Jesus Christ, I Forgot How Banging This Shit Was" Award goes to "Promote Violins" by The Liks feat. Kurupt (guaranteed to get you a speeding ticket when bumped in the whip)

HIP-HOP IS BACK ON DC RADIO!! WPFW 89.3 FM, Mon-Fri, 11pm-midnight (don't sleep! literally!)

http://www.freedommag.org/english/vol29I4/page04.htm - holla at dipset and tell em how deep jim jones' name really is...click the link, fam. take the red pill.

http://costofwar.com/index-kids-health.html - why it's smarter to be anti-war

http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/webb.html - CIA got that work

___

http://www.newgoldenera.com

http://tinyurl.com/liberators2 - anarchy in two dimensions

where you can get both...I believe that its 3-4 years. Its a killer (I know two people that completed it), but they both had LOTS of options after all was said and done. Would you consider that?

http://www.poorrighteousteech.com
Funky. Radical. Hip.

Follow me now: www.twitter.com/prteech

prolly because I am in the same situation.

anyway....

find a school that offers a dual JD/MBA program and just knock it out that way (if you can).

It's rigorous as hell, but think about how you will look to prospective employers.

You'll be naming your salary damn near.

"it's a different jingle when you hear these car keys" (c) Push

| http://soundcloud.com/liveguy |
| http://www.twitter.com/liveguy |
| http://www.soulargrooves.com |

i was very comfortable with my decision to pursue an MBA. it all depends on the individual, but in my situation it was the right option. i considered the JD as well, but i felt that the MBA gave me a bit more versatility for what i wanted to accomplish.

you may want to try a dual program though.

-------------



"I asked GOD to help me fly away, and if not, then please keep your eye on me"

I'm just your average everyday stockbroker.

Who is John Galt??

i'm very interested in law..BUT i never wanna see a court room
what concentrations within law never go to trial
i'm thinking maybe contract,etc
basically i am analytical,etc
but i don't see myself enjoying "arguing" my case to somebody everyday
i've been on state champion mock trial teams
and have taken like 2-3 college level law courses
so i know what to expect somewhat, just curious if there is some area of law thats basically a desk/office type thing

----------------

with the exception of criminal defense. I forget the actual number but the large majority of lawyers NEVER set foot in a courtroom.

****
"I'm a fly young man, check my wingspan."

****
R.I.P. Sean Taylor

might seriously look into that
i think law schools might be easier to get into then mba programs,etc
how difficult do you think it is for lawyers to get jobs now days
i hear that it's kinda of hard at the present
like lawyers are relocating ,etc

----------------

But if you have good grades and better legal related work experience, finding a job as an atty. should not be as difficult.

****
"I'm a fly young man, check my wingspan."

****
R.I.P. Sean Taylor

http://www.hbs.edu/mba/profiles/lwilliams.html

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

hence that lame bio....

That lil write up on ol' Les seems more like an advertisement to get people to wanna go there (if they can get in and afford it).

Plus its another way for them to show how diverse they are.

blah blah blah.....

MBA programs are mainly in place to give students cases/scenarios to consider, analyze and develop answers to minor *and/or major issues like money discrepancies, how to fix liquidity problems (if any), etc.

They can brush up on their analytical skills without the pressure of losing a 10 million dollar account by screwing up on earnings projections. An F on a mock project is better than a corporate canning. The more you do that shit, the more it stays with you.

It's no different than how you learn in law school by reading cases, creating briefs, discussing in class and practicing what you've learned by participating in moot court, or whatever it is that yall do to drive the points home.

lol, but i'm sure you knew all this.......

"it's a different jingle when you hear these car keys" (c) Push

| http://soundcloud.com/liveguy |
| http://www.twitter.com/liveguy |
| http://www.soulargrooves.com |

i'm only undergrad but i took graduate level courses and i work at wharton and am familiar wit their curriculum
all that shit is str8 case studies and memo analysis
i had a subscription to the harvard b-school case studies journal and it's pretty intensive...but its not exactly "learning" imo
more like exercising abilities u already were introduced to in ug

----------------

it's really just a constant re-emphasis on what undergrad business majors (should have) learned while in school.

You just do that shit over, and over, and over for two years...or until you finish. Then they slap a masters on you which adds a lil value to your earnings potential (at least for now).

"it's a different jingle when you hear these car keys" (c) Push

| http://soundcloud.com/liveguy |
| http://www.twitter.com/liveguy |
| http://www.soulargrooves.com |

the cool thing about law is that there is some structure and some answers. I wasn't sure the same thing existed with business though.

I wonder if it is effective.

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

Warren Buffet wouldn't be the world's greatest investor without the stuff he learned in his MBA program, a lot of very structured, rigorous ways of analyzing things that he has utilized to make himself very, very, very, rich.

I used to work with a Wharton MBA, we used to do a lot of feasibility analyses for potential ventures for our mutual employer, analyze acquisition targets, analyze various areas of the business to increase profitability, etc.

The structured way of doing this that we utilized was based on what he had learned in B-School.

I will say that I think Harvard's program spends too much time reading case studies, vs. Wharton's program where you learn to do more hardcore analytical work.

One thing about a top B-School is the connections you make, Warren Buffet went to Columbia and had Ben Graham for a professor, impressed the hell out of him, which led to him working with Ben and the rest is history.

The guy who started Staples went to Harvard and was able to leverage a professor as a resource who helped him start Staples.

Of course, if you go to the U. Phoenix online, the only connection you may make is the Philosophy Student working at Starbucks - LOL






Peace,








M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

didn't initially go to grad or law school. My point being is that I think a lot of you guys are fooling yourselves if you believe a "school" is going to make or break you. You are responsible for learning as much as YOU possibly can. Granted, going to a high profile institution will get you noteriety and maybe better learning resources but again, it's business school and understand that in business you won't always have the best of resources, or the best of this and that...YOU have to set out for and achieve sucess on your own. You can subscribe to the Journal, BE, Fortune, etc. on your own. You can read papers, watch FOX, CNN, MSNBC, news on your own. Be a student of life.

For instance, I graduated with high honors from a small black university and landed a job at one of the top broadcasting companies in America...sure, there were Harvard, Yale, hell even Howard U kids vying for the job but it ultimately boiled down to "What and How Much YOU KNOW" vs. what the title on your diploma states.

Herb & Soul Gastro Cafe & Lounge

www.HerbandSoul.net

the whole point about warren buffet is kinda moot because his whole steez is doing things the untraditional way and taking risks

also i think some people might be confused about what a case study is. a case study is a bunch of documentation on a company, maybe backlogs of any corp. activity for the past 10 yrs.
taking that infomation u have to analyze it from ALL business aspects and make a suggestion.
i seen where M2 said harvard concentrates on case studies while wharton does more analytical work...well doing a case study IS analytical work. most times u have to do ROI and all that financial analysis , maybe even some accounting. marketing and econ. also should be addressed somewhere in ur case study to help forecast suggestions
the only problem i have wit b-school being structured like that is because they dont TEACH u the skills u need to do a successful case study. if u were a bio major in undergrad ur case studies will suck ass because u won't know how to analysis numbers,trends,etc.

----------------

A lot of the stuff Warren does is taken from the Ben Graham playbook, and/or the playbooks of other Investing luminaries that Ben taught Warren about.

Ben was the author of "The Intelligent Investor" a book full of unconventional tactics and in Warren's mind the greatest investment book ever.

Ben taught Warren in B-School and while Warren had skills before Ben, he was even better after Ben.

A "Case Study" isn't necessarily as you described: "A bunch of documentation on a company" a case study typically documents the success of a best practice, or event, project, initiative, etc. Hence the phrase "Case Study" as in a particular instance or Case. This means the case study details how success was achieve, but also provides you with success metrics. Many case studies are prepared as marketing materials (Often called Customer Evidence by Marketing people) - so leaving the case study incomplete by not providing ROI data, or requiring the reader to provide additional info, would defeat the purpose of using the case study to sell a product, service and/or be used by others to replicate best practices.

E.g. Samsung might publish a Case Study detailing an efficient manufacturing process that saved money and produced products of higher quality in a division that produces DVD players, as the methodologies could be replicated in its LCD division.

or

Microsoft might product a case study discussing how their EPM Solution decreased the Product Development Life Cycle at Toyota and leverage it to sell EPM Solutions at Audi, BMW and Nissan.

In other words, a case study is a completed analysis and while it has value in terms of learning from someone else's success and teaching the student how to apply that knowledge to other areas, it isn't as helpful with respect to teaching the student how to analyze something from scratch.

What you described isn't a case study in a business world sense, it's more of a company report that is full of data that the student can use as a basis for Analysis.

Finally, in the Business world Case Studies are typically compiled and written by Marketers and/or Professional Writers and it's relative child's play to document the process/event/case and compile the data to provide to the writer.


Peace,









M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

i just did case studies for a whole semester and i had a yr long subscription to harvard b-school case study archives
a case study is not focused on success or failure, it simply outlines a company's activity for a certain period. ie: change in management, product development,etc. basically any business change that is worth documenting
the only financial info provided is the information that is revealed to stock holders,ie: balance sheets and net income,etc
any analysis work like ROI or TIIP is NOT provided
in essence u basically get what i equate to a "story" with some hard line facts like dates and balance sheet/marginal profit information
and u have to assess the situation from there
i don't know who writes these things to be honest
maybe u can link me up to some u have read

----------------

Let me get this straight: You're talking to me about what you studied in school and I'm talking about to you what I do at WORK!

LOL

Look - case studies are often used to sell a product or service, part of doing that requires detailing information that goes beyond what you'd find in a company's annual report.

Why?

Because Case Studies are specific drill downs to an "event" whose details are going to be buried in a company's annual report.

If Samsung uses an EPM product to reduce time to market for product improvements and new product iterations, you're not going to find the financial impact of that in a financial report.

That's why you have to put the data into the case study, because without it, it's hard to use the case study to sell anything to a Sr. Executive, not to mention convince an internal department to change the way they do business.

But, what do I know?

I just maintain a database of Case Studies at work that our sales force uses and work with the Vendor that writes them.


Peace,






M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

If alumni from a particular school are pervasive in the field or particular company you're interested in, it pays to go to that school (if possible).

For instance, if you want to work at a leading management consulting firm, you're probably gonna be well-served with an MBA from an Ivy League school.

You can get in without one, but you'll see the majority of folks are alumni from a small group of schools and they have mature networks of influence they've been building since their days in school.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

Especially since those schools aren't particularly big and it's easy for people to be only 2-4 degrees apart, whether by company or by school.

I don't think it's an accident that there are so many Northwestern & Stamford MBAs on the walls of my co-worker's offices, as they go back and hire fellow graduates, those people are getting first crack at the jobs (In most cases) and the other graduates get what's left.







Peace,










M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

Let's not forget that Microsoft wouldn't be Microsoft without the contacts Bill made at Harvard, or contacts other early Microsofters made at Stamford and that at the end of the day, Bill G. is an exception, not the rule.

Additionally, I know for a fact that it's VERY difficult to get into various management positions at MS if you didn't go to a name school. I've personally seen people from Ivy League schools with zero experience get hired there over people who went to a no-name school and have years of experience.

Anyway, whilst where you go to school may not make or break you, the fact remains that people who go to Ivy League schools have an edge that is in excess of their level of skill. It's also true that at many large corporations you can't go past a certain level if you don't have that Top School degree.

I've been in places where maybe one or two no-name people are working with the execs and they're all making fun of the cat downstairs with the MBA from Drexel who "dared" apply for a job at their level.

The Academic Glass Ceiling is real and in full effect, this doesn't mean you can't break it, it just makes it a harder road.

I'd rather be the talented guy with the Degree from Harvard than the degree from Drexel.



Peace,








M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

>I'd rather be the talented guy with the Degree from Harvard
>than the degree from Drexel.


Though my goals may be totally different than yours. I'd rather be an architecht rather than a contractor...if you get my analogy.

Sure, if you're goal is to work in middle management at a major firm, by all means do what you must but my goal has never been that.

Also, the example of "educational glass ceiling" is pointed when it comes to corporate America as their are far more considerable limitations in corporate America for certain folks...even if you do have a "top school" degree...I think we can fill in that blank.

Which leads me to this point, there are gonna be challenges and battles that one must fight regardless of the circumstance, that's life and you know what...that's business.

I'd like to see some statistics on an affluency level that breaks down the top 1000 richest blacks and see what schools they went to (if any at all),if they graduated, and what field their in now (including sports/entertainment)...i'd bet a lot of people's opinions would change drastically.

Herb & Soul Gastro Cafe & Lounge

www.HerbandSoul.net

>>I'd rather be the talented guy with the Degree from Harvard
>>than the degree from Drexel.

>Though my goals may be totally different than yours. I'd
>rather be an architecht rather than a contractor...if you
>get my analogy.

Our goals don't sound different to me. So you know my goal is to run a major corporation, I may own it or I may be C-level exec, either one is cool as I'm thinking about access to other top business people, potential wealth and overall impact on the business world, as those things are more important to me than saying I own my business when the business pays less than what I'd make working in Corporate America.


>Sure, if you're goal is to work in middle management at a
>major firm, by all means do what you must but my goal has
>never been that.

First - See above.

Second - the Academic Glass ceiling isn't as much of a factor for rank and file middle managers as it is for Execs or near execs. At work, my peers are all near execs in that while they may not be execs, they do have exec level responsibility and impact.

Very few went to no-name schools, the number of people who went to no-name schools amongst the full-fledged execs is even
smaller.

Take it further, people leave all the time and start successful businesses by leveraging the contacts, skills and wealth they accumulated whilst working.

So whether you want to work for yourself eventually or just be a company man, that top degree is a significant asset.

It's not a philosophical difference, it's just the reality of corporate America, whether you own the corp or someone else does.

>Also, the example of "educational glass ceiling" is pointed
>when it comes to corporate America as their are far more
>considerable limitations in corporate America for certain
>folks...even if you do have a "top school" degree...I think
>we can fill in that blank.
>
>Which leads me to this point, there are gonna be challenges
>and battles that one must fight regardless of the
>circumstance, that's life and you know what...that's
>business.

You just proved my point - there are obstacles, so if you can remove one, by all means do so.

>I'd like to see some statistics on an affluency level that
>breaks down the top 1000 richest blacks and see what schools
>they went to (if any at all),if they graduated, and what
>field their in now (including sports/entertainment)...i'd
>bet a lot of people's opinions would change drastically.

First - People in the world of sports and entertainment should be removed from consideration as we're talking about people using mental abilities to achieve, not the ability to sing, dance or play a sport.

Second - I think my argument would be strengthened, as what you described above isn't true for White People, I've got white friends whose school pedigree holds them back, so how could it be true for us considering the extra barriers we face?

Third - Go to Blackenterprise.com - and check out the their list from either Jan or Feb of 2000 - they had a list of the top 50 Blacks in Corporate America, people at the top of the corporate game to the point that even if they ran their own biz, chances are they would earn less, have less impact, stature and wealth. The vast majority went to name schools.

Ditto for an issue listing the top 50 Blacks on Wall St., these people were younger than the above list and few went to non-name schools.

The CEOs of the two largest Black owned banks in America are Harvard Graduates.

Philly Coke is a large Black owned business and is owned by a Harvard Grad.

Of the 5 Black CEOs of Fortune 500 companies (including the recently diposed Franklin Raines) all went to Harvard except for Alwin Lewis.

I think if you took the top 1000 richest Blacks outside of Sports and Entertainment, you'd find entrepreneurs and execs who primarily went to name schools.

I'm betting that the backgrounds of the top 50 or so repeats itself on down the list.


Peace,









M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

For instance, I have a friend that runs a growing real estate related website (www.hbrcenter.com). She got her undergrad from an HBCU and immediately went back to get her MBA from that same school.

Though it might be helpful, she doesn't need a deep network of well connected individuals to build her company. The site makes it's money as basically a marketing tool; her focus is on increasing the quality of the content-> to attract more people -> to sell more ad space.

She's not likely going to need an "in" with Morgan Stanley to help with an IPO... She's not going to be pitching for millions of dollars in angel funds from deep pocketed classmates to help grow her company.

She chose to get her MBA as quickly as possible because she doesn't want the responsibility (nor the commitement) required to run a very large corporation. Her field really doesn't require it either so she didn't have to think too hard about where to go to school for an MBA.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

......and positioning yourself for maximum earning and wealth creation potential, in addition to providing yourself with a hedge against any economic shocks your business may face.

Not to mention the fact that gaining experience and connections whilst working can be valuable too.

Since 9/10 entrepreneurial pursuits will eventually fail, positioning yourself so that you're protected and/or have the most options is always a good idea.


Peace,






M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

>First - People in the world of sports and entertainment
>should be removed from consideration as we're talking about
>people using mental abilities to achieve, not the ability to
>sing, dance or play a sport.


So if we're talking about financial wealth, we're supposed to take out athletes and entertainers because if i'm reading correctly, you assume that they a. got lucky, b. don't use mental abilities to achieve, c. singing, dancing, or playing a sport is a less admirable accomplishment than studying mergers and acquisitions? This sounds kinda odd considering we're having this debate on an...Entertainer's website who seems to demonstrate those skillsets you described as being advantagous for corporate sucess.



>Second - I think my argument would be strengthened, as what
>you described above isn't true for White People, I've got
>white friends whose school pedigree holds them back, so how
>could it be true for us considering the extra barriers we
>face?

They are exceptions to the rule, but not the rule...but again, I subscribe to a different school of thought. Who made the rules, who are the rules made for? Who says you can't change the rules...i'm an agent of change, not a yes man and I guess that's why i've gotten thus far in my career, for not be scared to think outside of the box or not trying to be like everyone else.


>
>Third - Go to Blackenterprise.com - and check out the their
>list from either Jan or Feb of 2000 - they had a list of the
>top 50 Blacks in Corporate America, people at the top of the
>corporate game to the point that even if they ran their own
>biz, chances are they would earn less, have less impact,
>stature and wealth. The vast majority went to name schools.


Again, Black Enterprise is geared towards those of us who are in Corporate America. Business school teaches you that small business is the driving force behind American capital. Per capita, i'd argue there are more blacks doing sufficiently well in small business than in corporate America. In fact, i'm quite sure.


>
>Ditto for an issue listing the top 50 Blacks on Wall St.,
>these people were younger than the above list and few went
>to non-name schools.


Again, you are only speaking of corporate America...I said generally...the top 1000 wealthy black Americans...including entertainers, singers, and entreprenuers more so to prove a point that no matter what the Top Named B School tells you, the stark reality is totally different.



>The CEOs of the two largest Black owned banks in America are
>Harvard Graduates.

Okay and the richest black man in America (Bob Johnson) didn't...again, we could go tit for tat on this one...

>
>Philly Coke is a large Black owned business and is owned by
>a Harvard Grad.

And Reggie Fowler earned a social work degree from Wyoming and is about to become the first black NFL owner in history...again tit for tat



>Of the 5 Black CEOs of Fortune 500 companies (including the
>recently diposed Franklin Raines) all went to Harvard except
>for Alwin Lewis.

and just how big of impact are they making? And are they really that powerful? I'm not trying to be a debbie downer however I do enjoy engaging in intellectual debates on the relevance of so called "name brand" education and it's impact on ones future sucess...

It's almost the same jive that Howard & FAMU kicks to you about going to a Bethune Cookman or Coppin...like Bill Jefferies from Paducah, KY is gonna give a dang you paid 20 thousand a semester to go to Howard over Bethune...lol

Herb & Soul Gastro Cafe & Lounge

www.HerbandSoul.net

>So if we're talking about financial wealth, we're supposed
>to take out athletes and entertainers because if i'm reading
>correctly, you assume that they a. got lucky, b. don't use
>mental abilities to achieve, c. singing, dancing, or playing
>a sport is a less admirable accomplishment than studying
>mergers and acquisitions? This sounds kinda odd considering
>we're having this debate on an...Entertainer's website who
>seems to demonstrate those skillsets you described as being
>advantagous for corporate sucess.

This discussion is one on success in the Business world, is it not? In other words, we're talking about Entrepreneurs and Business Professionals.

Athletes and Entertainers can be classified as neither, as Business acumen typically has little bearing on their success and their lack of said acumen often reveals itself in the entertainers who declare bankruptcy, have less money after they were famous than during, etc.

Hence the reason they don't belong in this conversation, since we're having one about the relevance of big name college degree with respect to succeeding in the business world.



>They are exceptions to the rule, but not the rule...but
>again, I subscribe to a different school of thought. Who
>made the rules, who are the rules made for? Who says you
>can't change the rules...i'm an agent of change, not a yes
>man and I guess that's why i've gotten thus far in my
>career, for not be scared to think outside of the box or not
>trying to be like everyone else.

Your school of thought is entirely irrelevant, as we're (again) discussing the value of a big name degree with respect to succeeding in the Business world, insofar as it being more valuable than having a degree from a non-name school.

Providing that you can succeed without it, or stating that you're going to do things "your way" doesn't change my thesis that having said name degree can be quite beneficial.

Deciding to pick Harvard over Drexel has nothing to do with "thinking differently" or being a "yes man" it has to do with recognizing that you can leverage the former more than the latter, not to mention the connections you can make.

The argument here is whether or not a name degree is more valuable than a no-name one, I'm arguing yes and I have evidence to back up my claim.

How you or I wish to do things is not relevant.




>>Third - Go to Blackenterprise.com - and check out the their
>>list from either Jan or Feb of 2000 - they had a list of the
>>top 50 Blacks in Corporate America, people at the top of the
>>corporate game to the point that even if they ran their own
>>biz, chances are they would earn less, have less impact,
>>stature and wealth. The vast majority went to name schools.
>
>
>Again, Black Enterprise is geared towards those of us who
>are in Corporate America. Business school teaches you that
>small business is the driving force behind American capital.

Well, they say that small businesses are an important part of our economy ON AGGREGATE moreso than individual, due to them employing a lot of people (ON AGGREGATE) and spending a lot of money as a group.

Additionally, Microsoft, Wal-Mart, Apple, Dell, etc, were all small businesses at one point in time, so the next grew fast growing company in America is currently a small business somewhere.

When it comes to American capital, foreign investors are the driving force behind that, but that's a discussion for another day.

> Per capita, i'd argue there are more blacks doing
>sufficiently well in small business than in corporate
>America. In fact, i'm quite sure.

First - To have this conversation, we need to define what is a small business as the term is VERY nebulous. It could mean a mom and pop store, a McDonald's franchise or a regional chain of Grocery stores that generate 7-figures in operating income.

We also have to realize that many of these businesses are just privately held corporations and anyone working for them (and the owners) should be considered part of Corporate America

Second - Where is your data that backs up your statement? I'd like to see it because my data disagrees with you.

My data breaks down like this:

http://www.census.gov/econ/census02/sbo/sboadvance.htm

Blacks only make up 1.6% of Business Owners that have paid employees, out of 7.7 Million total Business Owners, for a grand total of 123,200 Black owned businesses with employees. Now, I will say you could have various types of businesses that are doing well with no employees, BUT - it's not a stretch to say that the ones with employees average a higher level of income from their business.

http://www.blackenterprise.com/ArchiveOpen.asp?Source=ArchiveTab/2000/02/0200-50.htm

According to the Dept. of Labor in 1998 they were 19 Million Administrators, Execs and Managers in the workforce, (Basically Middle Managers or above) of that group 7.2% were Black for a total of roughly 1.37 Million.

Now let's assume that all of the Black owned business owners were counted as managers or execs by the Dept. of Labor (There is undoubtedly some overlap) - it still means that about 1.2 Million or nearly 10X the number of Blacks are working at the Middle Manager level or above in Corporate America than are business owners.

Now to break this down further, we'd have to take out companies that can make the BE 100 lists because those companies should be considered part of corporate America.

Next we'd have to do a drill down with respect to average income and net worth of the corporate America group vs. the Small Business group.

I seriously doubt the Small Business Group would win, it's mathematically impossible actually.

Anyway, I'd love to see your data.

>Again, you are only speaking of corporate America...I said
>generally...the top 1000 wealthy black Americans...including
>entertainers, singers, and entreprenuers more so to prove a
>point that no matter what the Top Named B School tells you,
>the stark reality is totally different.

For the average person it's much more likely that they're going to be able to become a CPA than play in the NBA, so when discussing what is the most probably path to success for the average person, factoring in those who work in entertainment is utterly fatuous.

Additionally, since you want to "Prove a point" shouldn't the list look at Wealth, vs. time they've been wealth vs. their likelihood of maintaining that wealth? Isn't that more significant than who got a big signing bonus?

Entrepreneurs only helps my argument as according to the census: http://www.census.gov/econ/census02/sbo/educ.htm

76% of Black Business Owners have at least some college education, 46% have a degree and 25% have a grad degree, the highest percentage amongst all groups.

Wanna bet many of the wealthiest ones went to top schools? Or have a higher avg. wealth on aggregate, all it takes is a few cats like John Rogers & Bruce Llewelyn to completely sku the data in my favor.

Remember, all I need are more people with name degrees to win the debate and I've already won in the Corporate Arena.


>>The CEOs of the two largest Black owned banks in America are
>>Harvard Graduates.
>
>Okay and the richest black man in America (Bob Johnson)
>didn't...again, we could go tit for tat on this one...

All I need are more Blacks who are successful in the top rungs of business to win the argument, and I've already established that pattern.

By the way, Johnson went to the U. Illionis a Tier 1 college and got a Masters from Princeton.


>>Philly Coke is a large Black owned business and is owned by
>>a Harvard Grad.
>
>And Reggie Fowler earned a social work degree from Wyoming
>and is about to become the first black NFL owner in
>history...again tit for tat

You're missing the point - more Black Business Notables went to top Schools than not.

>>Of the 5 Black CEOs of Fortune 500 companies (including the
>>recently diposed Franklin Raines) all went to Harvard except
>>for Alwin Lewis.
>
>and just how big of impact are they making? And are they
>really that powerful? I'm not trying to be a debbie downer
>however I do enjoy engaging in intellectual debates on the
>relevance of so called "name brand" education and it's
>impact on ones future sucess...

Sorry hon, you can argue this all you want, but I work for a Dow Component company where its hard to get in the door if you don't have a name degree, I've worked for other Fortune 100 companies where the rule was interview the name school kids first.

You can choose to ignore it, but it's a reality.

If you're going to work in Corporate America, at least recognize the academic issues so you can adjust, there can't be a debate when the hard evidence and data back me up so strongly.

I look at the world differently can't disabuse the data.

Remember, all I need is to consistently show that statistically it's more likely that a successful person in business has a name degree.

As for impact, if you're the CEO you're the man you control budgets and decisions that can have tremendous impact. Franklin Raines may have been forced to resign, BUT, he brought that on himself AND he's had tremendous impact with respect to fighting loan discrimination and helping Blacks buy homes.

Or take it down lower, it's not uncommon for a upper-middle manager to have a 7-figure (or close) budget they either control or influence. A lot of that many goes to vendors, small companies that control a service, companies they have the power to choose at will.

That's impact.

>It's almost the same jive that Howard & FAMU kicks to you
>about going to a Bethune Cookman or Coppin...like Bill
>Jefferies from Paducah, KY is gonna give a dang you paid 20
>thousand a semester to go to Howard over Bethune...lol

Question: How long have you worked in Corporate America?

The idea that you refuse to believe that where you go to school can be a problem when companies are fairly up front about pursuing certain graduates first and C students from name schools are getting hired by Wall St. Firms whilst A students from State Schools barely have a shot is mind boggling.

Anyway, I guess it's just a "weird coincidence" that the the vast majority of the people in my Business Unit went to name schools, just a strange coincidence.


Peace,











M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

elitist even...you sound more like an accountant than an intellectual (not to be rude).

You point out data that says blacks who attend name brand b schools are more prevalant in business than blacks who didn't but you didn't point out the most glaring statistics...how many blacks have went to said schools? Clearly you must've forgotten that it's only been 30-40 years since blacks have been allowed to go to said schools. We all know that most of corporate America is controlled by "old-money", maybe you're argument would be more prevelent 10 years from now but not now...that my friend is impossible to suggest that there are more blacks doing well who came from top tier b-schools (and I mean the top 10) than those who went to "lowly" state schools or off brand universities, the admittance percentages of minorities as a whole into those programs would dispute that claim.

Also, this post was about b-school vs. law school, we went off into a tangent in which both of us were a bit misguided. I clearly pointed out that your data doesn't support your thesis. Just the tone in your post alone suggest that an ivy league degree doesn't teach one the value of a diverse workforce if your criterion for choosing employees is based on where they went to school and what fraternity you pledged vs. how much they've actually learned and attained and can transfer into the "real world".

And just an FYI, Illinois is a "state" school but you pointed it out as a top tier school, doesn't that dilute your entire argument?

Herb & Soul Gastro Cafe & Lounge

www.HerbandSoul.net

>elitist even...you sound more like an accountant than an
>intellectual (not to be rude).

whoa..hey now, im an acountant and he was just backing up factual numbers for his side of the debate. That is what usually goes down when presenting your arguement in board rooms. Both of you bring up great points, but I debating wise - I see where he is coming from and his background shows it in his arguement, and vice versa for you (ie: given your background and pursuitment in your MBA courses/curriculum right now)


carry on...

<<<---...and a child shall lead them.
Tsietsi Mashinini - Leader of the June 16 1976 Soweto Uprising


Education is OUR passport to the future. For tomorrow belongs to the people that prepare for it today ©Malcolm X

We should just do this corporate style - and make a full fledged "Business Case"

I'm actually in Accountant Mode right now - the last 6 weeks have been focused first on Mid-year budget reviews and now that we got most of what we wanted we need to make sure everything is allocated accordingly before the middle of next month when the VP will be on our asses again.

I hate this crap.


Peace,








M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

I said that when you look at the top Blacks in Business, they primarily went to Ivy League and/or top schools, no?

I proved this in spades, by pointing to multiple listings of the Top Blacks in Business and showing how they disporportionately come from the top schools.

You pointed out that a small % of Blacks go to these schools in the first place, which only further strengthens my argument that you're chances of rising to the top are significantly better if you go to the top schools, since these small group of people are over-represented in certain areas of business.

Yes, it's a state school - but it's a Tier 1 school, just another example of how going to a Tier 1 school can be a help. After all, some companies put Tier 1 school as a requirement in the job posting.

As for the value of diversity in Corporate America, it often works like this:

-Diversity within a certain bucket, different genders and races sure, but with similar backgrounds. I work at a company noted for diversity and at the end of the day, we're pretty much middle class people who went to name schools.

-Diversity on aggregate, but little diversity when it comes to people in power.

So you know, companies usually don't think of diversity in terms of recruiting from a wide number of schools.

Finally, I often sound pompous and arrogant and if that offended you, I apoligize.

As for Accountant vs. Intellectual - people at work often tell me I talk like a Financial Analyst or Banker, I take it as a compliment.


Peace,







M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

I AM seriously reading this thread.. and have already decided on the JD but this comment threw me for a loop...

>>>First - People in the world of sports and entertainment should be removed from consideration as we're talking about people using mental abilities to achieve, not the ability to sing, dance or play a sport. >>>>

so because i sing.. i'm dumb?..wow.. I'm sorry off track I know.. but wow..

how u know bout that leboew grad school?

----------------

Did a lot of consulting work for various Pharma and Financial companies in the area - I worked with a couple of start-ups in the area as well.


Peace,




M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

>a./ has the program qualified you for the desired
>opportunities you had in mind when you pursued such a
>degree?

Law School? Yup.
It's the only way to be a Lawyer in TX.

>b./ how important is achieving a high GPA in these programs
>to prospective employers?

I plan to go into business for myself, sole practice.

In terms of working for someone else, some fields are more competitive than others.

If you want to prosecute, bad grades in Corporations isn't an issue. But more important than grades, much to my chagrin, was mock trial experience. The more, the better.

If you want to work for a big firm, 1) school, 2) law review 3) high gpa.

If you want to work for a big firm, and don't have the above, CONNECTIONS.

>c./ how did you go about choosing the program of study?

Seemed like a good fit.

>finally...i'm in between wanting to pursue an MBA or a J.D.,
>and quite frankly, am having a difficult time assessing
>which one might be more fitting for myself, my intellectual
>faculties, and my career-goals.
>
>If i were to choose a law-degree, estate law (trusts, wills,
>real estate) would be my focus.

Because you like those things, or because you can make money @ them?

>if i were to choose an MBA degree, simply, i'd just want it
>to help me make more money.

Because the degree itself makes you money, or the things you learn you can use yourself to make money?

When I was at AMD, hiring staff never seemed to be impressed by MBA's, even though they went to those type of career fairs.

I'd actually like to go to a couple MBA classes and see how it jumps off.

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

Vex,

I went through the same evaluation, MBA vs. JD ... I ultimately chose the MBA route (Kenan-Flagler Business School, UNC-Chapel Hill) ... for a couple of reasons. But first I wanted to address Buddy's comments b/c some good points were made:


>1. A JD is a gatekeeper degree that allows you to do all sorts of things that a person without a JD can't.

**Somewhat True, such as a corp contracts, etc. but you wouldn't want to go to law school and NOT take the bar, right? Personally, an MBA is more of a gatekeeper degree

>2. Everything you need to know in Business you can learn at most good law schools. Not true the other way around.

**Not true, though you can learn about incorporations (S, LLC, LLP, etc.) but you don't learn logistics, supply/demand, business plans, ROI, profit/loss, etc.

>3. An MBA is only as good as the job you get afterwards. A lawyer no matter what, can always throw up a shingle after law school and start a practice.

**Not true, this is only valid if you PASS the Bar Exam, which isn't for everyone. Otherwise, you are limited in your options b/c most of 'corp' america feels a JD applicant is above average analytically, but not highly quantitative.

>4. I took a couple of Business school course and had the feeling that, besides accountant and similar stuff, you don't learn anything in Business school you won't learn on the J-O-B or from reading business week magazine every week.

**Not true but not completely wrong. An MBA program is only as good as you make it. If you focus on CEOs (history), methodologies (ie: Apple, Microsoft, Dell business models), negotiations, strategy, marketing, etc. you will get FAR more insight than from any J-O-B; however, this ONLY applies if you have 'real-world' experience prior to going back to school. If you are going straight from undergrad than Buddy's statement is 100% correct.

>All this adds up to a JD being a more versatile degree IMHOP. ANd I think this pans out in the real world when you see so many people in a wide range of fields with a JD. BTW a JD is only 3 years in the states. the person who said 5 doesn't know what he talking about.

**Hard to argue here, net is that either a JD or MBA will serve you well. Just understand why you are pursuing an advance degree and what your short/long-term goals include. If you don't want to 'practice law' then I would advise and MBA. If you want the option to 'practice law', though you don't have to have a JD to sit for the bar, I would advise a JD. My caveat was that my company covered my bschool education so it was a free-ride (outside of a 40-50 hr work week plus a full-time executive MBA schedule!).

Hope this helps-

My two cents...

Challenger
*****************************************************************************************************

************************************************************************************
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself" - Einstein

>>1. A JD is a gatekeeper degree that allows you to do all
>sorts of things that a person without a JD can't.
>
>**Somewhat True, such as a corp contracts, etc. but you
>wouldn't want to go to law school and NOT take the bar, right?
>Personally, an MBA is more of a gatekeeper degree

You got to back up the statement that an MBA is more of a gatekeeper degree than a JD. Can you really dispute that a person with a JD can can get work in a business capacity, but a person with a MBA can not get work in a legal capacity.


>
>>2. Everything you need to know in Business you can learn at
>most good law schools. Not true the other way around.
>
>**Not true, though you can learn about incorporations (S, LLC,
>LLP, etc.) but you don't learn logistics, supply/demand,
>business plans, ROI, profit/loss, etc.

I could have learned all those things in law school (Columbia). If not in the law school than at the business school. Of course, MBA cats were in a lot of my law classes, but back to point 1, that doesn't mean they could become lawyers.

>
>>3. An MBA is only as good as the job you get afterwards. A
>lawyer no matter what, can always throw up a shingle after law
>school and start a practice.
>
>**Not true, this is only valid if you PASS the Bar Exam, which
>isn't for everyone. Otherwise, you are limited in your options
>b/c most of 'corp' america feels a JD applicant is above
>average analytically, but not highly quantitative.

Agreed there is the assumption in my statement that JD seeker would also seek to pass the bar. If we are discussing a JD seeker who can't pass the bar, scrap everything I said. You wasted your time going to law school if you don't intend to pass the bar.

>>4. I took a couple of Business school course and had the
>feeling that, besides accountant and similar stuff, you don't
>learn anything in Business school you won't learn on the J-O-B
>or from reading business week magazine every week.
>
>**Not true but not completely wrong. An MBA program is only as
>good as you make it. If you focus on CEOs (history),
>methodologies (ie: Apple, Microsoft, Dell business models),
>negotiations, strategy, marketing, etc. you will get FAR more
>insight than from any J-O-B;

My point is that you can leard all that stuff from a job OR from reading alot IMHOP. But I will give you that that can be said of almost anything you can learn in school. And yeah you can sit for the bar without going to law school, but who is the last person you ever heard of "reading" the law? Abraham Lincoln?

however, this ONLY applies if you
>have 'real-world' experience prior to going back to school. If
>you are going straight from undergrad than Buddy's statement
>is 100% correct.


>**Hard to argue here, net is that either a JD or MBA will
>serve you well. Just understand why you are pursuing an
>advance degree and what your short/long-term goals include. If
>you don't want to 'practice law' then I would advise and MBA.
>If you want the option to 'practice law', though you don't
>have to have a JD to sit for the bar, I would advise a JD. My
>caveat was that my company covered my bschool education so it
>was a free-ride (outside of a 40-50 hr work week plus a
>full-time executive MBA schedule!).

regarding "practicing law", I am a corporate lawyer which means I will probably never go to court (unless I am defending myself) and I really couldn't tell you how to actually go about suing someone. And yet, I am fielding calls from investment banks who are just as interested in hiring corporate lawyers as they are MBAs. And If
I ever wanted to go court, I am licensed to do so. Thanks my argument for a JD being a versitle degree. Truth is we don't disagree that much.
>Hope this helps-
>
>My two cents...
>
>Challenger
>*****************************************************************************************************
>
>


**********

Reality check: according to the 2000 census, there were more than 31,000 black physicians and surgeons, 33,000 black lawyers. There are about 1,400 black athletes playing professional basketball, football and baseball combined.

i'm going to law school for sure, now i gotta figure out how to pay for it...

Weird thing for me, the more I practiced, the lower my scores went


I got serious at the end of December and my goal was 160 or better. I took a practice test and hit 164. Unfortuantely, that was my peak, subsequent practice tests were lower and lower. By the week before the test, I hit 155.

I took the rest of the week off and got a 157 on the offical test, which was somewhat disappointing though still in my range. I'd need a 164 or better to average out above 160.. dunno if it's really worth it but the next test isn't until June so I have time to decide.

It probably rules me out of the top schools unless work experience really matters for admissions (I've heard law school admissions are particularly quantitative).

Is there a similar drop in value from first to second tier law schools as there is in business schools?

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

i got a 154 and a 3.29 GPA and i got into American, so go figure. if you got a top choice, i say apply for that mug and don't look back!

when I told him my scores... American and Catholic.

Are you getting any scholarships from American to attend?

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

Catholic is good i think, but $$$$. i talked to a girl from there when the LSAC law forums came to my city.

i blame hip-hop.

i get a good deal from other schools i applied to.

Iowa, when they were waitlisted by Howard... Go figure. Iowa's one of the Big Ten schools i actually didn't apply to.

i'll probably be at Indiana, still an outside shot at Chicago, and if I get in that could be a tough choice.

i blame hip-hop.

good luck with chicago, thats no slouch school!

>good luck with chicago, thats no slouch school!

yea nothing i can do now... just wait and hope.

indiana already offered me a full-ride though, so that's a damn good option.

i blame hip-hop.

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=2444348&mesg_id=2444348&listing_type=search

- - - Begin Sig. - - -

"Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is that little voice at the end of the day that says, 'I'll try again tomorrow.'" ~ ~ Anne Radmacher

Black Man Black Letter Law:
http://blackmanbll.blogspot.com/

I truly believe that the versatility of the JD is limitless. I recently received my JD and I am trying to make my money go as far as possible. I have considered an MBA, but a close homie has her JD and she always complains about how she is confined to one specialty and that no one will discuss other things with her other than business.
I am convinced that a JD, opposed to an MBA, is not a degree earned based on substantive knowledge. I went to a law school that taught based on construtionist theories; therefore, I was taught to think out of the box when observing situations. Overall, law school is an academic degree that one earns after learning to think differently. A JD-holder can engage in the same transactions as an MBA-holder without the substantive knowledge because of the ability to wrap his/her mind around the transaction and disect the governing laws and ordinances that control the deal.
My only downfall is age and race. I am a 25 year old black corporate attorney. People always second guess me. It would happen with an MBA. But knowadays, a JD is a dime-a-dozen. And people are not so keen on hiring a 25 year old brothah who has hip-hop-inspired art on the walls of his office, wears LRG skullies, is connected to an iPod like a Siamese twin, and wears crazy colors (in suit/professional coordinated business attire). Thus, if you dont have confidence (not arrogance...which people always mistake after seeing my Morehouse degree...) you wont make it PERIOD.
But, be not mistaken....this life is not for the faint at heart. It is hard work, hustle-oriented (particularly if you work at a firm), and institutionalized with all types of idiosyncratic b.s.
But good luck and God speed.

Grace and peace.

If you do not get into a top 25 law school (see US news & World Report's annual issue of the top law schools), do not expect to get into the top law firms in the country which start their associates at around $125k a year. If you do not care about getting into the top firms then disregard what I am saying.

To get a good job as a lawyer you MUST follow a certain pattern. Which is intern at a respectable law firm during the summer, or work for a judge. I know so many people with law degrees that did not know the rules of the game and did not get offers because they never interned. Great grades at a respectable school and summer internships at respectable law firms will guarantee you offers when you are through with law school. Of course being connected always helps.

The law field is very competitive and there are so many people with law degrees. A lot of schools are very expensive and the diploma they issue can be worthless, so be very careful with your selection. You do not want to be caught with $80k or more in student loan debt and not be able to get a decent paying job. Again, I know many people in that situation. Either its because of one or any combination of reasons - the school they went to, average grades and no internship history. Also, if your aim is to get nto one of the top firms, if you do not get into one of them within the first year of being out of school you will probably never get in. Every year there are many kids coming out of the top schools to choose from, and the firms think that you are not desireable if you are not able to get a position in a good firm in your first year out of school.

In my opinion, an MBA may be the better way to go - I know people with both and I know of a lot of lawyers going back to school for an MBA, whereas I've never heard of it the other way around. The lawyers I know that went back for an MBA all said the same thing, which is by working on corporate deals with banks or investment firms, they realize it is much better being on the other side. Less hours, more rewards, less stress, though both are stressful.

I've been a paralegal for many years and I have worked in big NY law firms and worked with all kinds of lawyers, from Partners to temp attorneys (those who cannot find steady work), so that's how I have the knowledge that I am sharing. Hope it is helpful.

>If you do not get into a top 25 law school (see US news &
>World Report's annual issue of the top law schools), do not
>expect to get into the top law firms in the country which
>start their associates at around $125k a year. If you do not
>care about getting into the top firms then disregard what I am
>saying.

in general this is true. Not ALWAYS, but in most cases.

>To get a good job as a lawyer you MUST follow a certain
>pattern. Which is intern at a respectable law firm during the
>summer, or work for a judge. I know so many people with law
>degrees that did not know the rules of the game and did not
>get offers because they never interned. Great grades at a
>respectable school and summer internships at respectable law
>firms will guarantee you offers when you are through with law
>school. Of course being connected always helps.

This is so true. I didn't follow the "pattern" and sometimes it has hurt me. Just this past Friday I went to get coffee with a young attorney and he asked me, "What are you doing here? You are too talented not to be at a big firm." So I explained to him that I didn't follow the traditional "pattern" and he immediately understood. But he repeatedly told me something that I already knew, "If you have the skills and integrity, you will succeed."

My current boss told me straight up that I got the INTERVIEW simply b/c I worked for a certain reputable firm in DC. Now, I know that I got the job b/c of who I am and my interview skills. But b/c I didn't go to a top 25 school, nor did I finish in the the top of my class, my journey has been a struggle.



>The law field is very competitive and there are so many people
>with law degrees. A lot of schools are very expensive and the
>diploma they issue can be worthless, so be very careful with
>your selection. You do not want to be caught with $80k or
>more in student loan debt and not be able to get a decent
>paying job. Again, I know many people in that situation.
>Either its because of one or any combination of reasons - the
>school they went to, average grades and no internship history.
> Also, if your aim is to get nto one of the top firms, if you
>do not get into one of them within the first year of being out
>of school you will probably never get in. Every year there
>are many kids coming out of the top schools to choose from,
>and the firms think that you are not desireable if you are not
>able to get a position in a good firm in your first year out
>of school.

Again, I must agree. If you don't get into the "premier" firms out the gate, you are gonna have to get at LEAST five years experience elsewhere before they will give you a shot.


But as I have said many times before, I GOOD attorney can write his/her own ticket b/c now matter what, at the end of the day, your skills dictate your true success. The traditional path ain't for everyone. Personally, I came to the fork in the path and went straight. You MUST know which path you want to follow BEFORE you START law school. Unfortunately, I didn't. I fell a few times, but, "I bounced back." (c) Juvie

****
"I'm a fly young man, check my wingspan."

****
R.I.P. Sean Taylor

The overwhleming majority of students that I know that ended up in big firm jobs HATED those jobs.

Be careful what you wish for...

i think that was them ...anyway, i know combo programs exist...

"yes, sometimes my rhymes are sexist, but you lovely bitches and hos should know i'm tryin to correct it"- hiphopopotamus

http://preptimeposse.blogspot.com

Still a great quality school and I can't be mad at a full ride to law school anywhere. i guess we'll see how it turns out in a few years.

i blame hip-hop.

decisions, decisions. its looking like iowa vs. american.

we could be big 10 buddies.

no homo.

i blame hip-hop.