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Subject: "I can see that argument, but it's pretty one-dimensional" Previous topic | Next topic
lonesome_d
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Wed Feb-25-15 02:08 PM

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6. "I can see that argument, but it's pretty one-dimensional"
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>what i think i read was that bebop musicians
>started introducing weird chords and chord changes into pop
>songs
>that hadn't been used in western music before,

I think where you're most wrong wrong is that "western music" should be "American pop music."

But even that's sort of disingenuous.

>and that these changes came about because bebop musicians came
>
>out of the blues tradition,

Yeah... nope.

I'm no jazz historian an there was certainly plenty of overlap between 'jazz' and 'blues' music and musicians. But claiming that bebop musicians "came out of the blues tradition" at all, let alone moreso than the jazz musicians that predate them, isn't accurate.

One thing that's generally overlooked in these kinds of statements is that 'the blues tradition' wasn't really 'the blues tradition' at that point in history... 'the blues' was really no more than 50 years old max at the time bebop was born, and had evolved rapidly for most of that time.

>which was based on a scale system
>that had the flattened third and fifth as the norm...

okay... commonly known as 'the blues scale'*

>which is completely different from what western music
>had been doing up to that point.

no.

I can't say whether this scale was use in Western classical music but as Teknontheou pointed out it is not at all uncommon in various Euro vernacular musics, in addition to certain Western African vernacular musics, especially those informed by Arabic culture, and Middle Eastern musics (which understandably may not be considered Western for the purpose of this conversation).

In particular with reference to the development of this scale in Western music, the 'blues scale' was also present in British Isles vernacular music in what's come to be known as 'modal' scales, very common in balladry and also Celtic instrumental music.

It's most likely that rather than developing in isolation on reaching American shores, those commonalities combined, recombined and reinforced themselves as they emerged as major influences in developing American music of all kinds throughout the 19th century.

>and based on the popularity of bebop and its offshoots,
>those chords spread... and it's influence was so great
>that those previously unused chords now show up in every
>genre
>from funk to pop.

Hmmm... I can kind of see that a bit, but it's not like the Great American Songbook isn't aware of dissonance or complex chords.

>And the idea of jazz being based on an
>entirely different scale than the do re me fa sol la ti do
>scale that I learned in school...

I don't see it as based on a different scale at all... if anything, jazz musicians' use of the fuller capabilities inherent in the Western scale system require a greater mastery of it than in most previous musics, possibly excepting classical music composers'.

>black americans ppl gave the world an entirely new musical
>vocabulary.
>it affected all music that came after it.

That's very true several times over, regardless of everything I typed above.

>sorta like hip hop.
>
>did I understand what I read correctly?

Not sure what you read.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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did jazz players invent dissonance? [View all] , Joe Corn Mo, Wed Feb-25-15 12:00 AM
 
Subject Author Message Date ID
Dissonance predates jazz and blues
Feb 25th 2015
1
the rite of spring wants to talk to you, among others.
Feb 25th 2015
2
Dissonant chords have been around as long as chords have been around.
Feb 25th 2015
3
There's lots of non-diatonic scales in European music.
Feb 25th 2015
4
i'll take these answers as a no.
Feb 25th 2015
5
RE: I can see that argument, but it's pretty one-dimensional
Feb 25th 2015
8
      This is wrong:
Feb 25th 2015
9
      to be honest I kinda tune out the theory stuff
Mar 03rd 2015
10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonance_and_dissonance
Feb 25th 2015
7

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