https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP7xRieiZm0

- I was skeptical about this mainly because you feel like you've seen and heard everything about this, but this was very well done.
- I'm having a hard time figuring out who had the best interview between Metta, Jermaine and Stephen. All were fantastic.
- Could not believe they interviewed the fan that ran on the court.
- LOVED Metta's honesty about winning a championship near the end of the film.
- The editing and graphical treatment for this entire film was on point. The ending shot of the film had me standing and applauding.
- Beautifully shot interviews. Especially Stephen Jackson's interview. What's common used as a hair light was reversed and used on his face for the profile shot. Very clean.
- Did I mention that the interviews were great?

- There's ONE quote that made the entire documentary, but I don't want to spoil it for those who haven't seen it.
Stephen was quoting something Ron Artest said AFTER the game was over. It's been a while since I laughed that hard.

it was a really good interview. He gave a lot of good insight into how he got the idea off the ground and why he decided to even do it. I immediately watched the doc after that and it was surprisingly good. I know you look at things like this with a different eye, due to your experience with film. LOL…the Artest quote did make me legit LOL. He was dead ass, too.

when you watch you'll know what i'm talking about. don't want to give anything away.

Doc was good too.

- I had really forgotten how good that team was.
- I had really forgotten how good Jermaine was (6x All-Star)
- Dude who ran on the floor and squared up on Ron really had the nerve to call Jermaine's punch a bitch move. The gall to even be in the doc. Some people are really delusional.
- Kudos to the prosecutor who saw through all the bullshit and held fans accountable.
- The media was really reprehensible back then for focusing exclusively on the players and blaming hip-hop and tattoos. Fuck 'em.

______________________________________________________________________________

"To Each His Reach"

but.....

Fuck aliens.

>- Dude who ran on the floor and squared up on Ron really had
>the nerve to call Jermaine's punch a bitch move. The gall to
>even be in the doc. Some people are really delusional.

and randomly ended up in the smoking section with one of this person's friends. she was complaining about how he got sucker punched and i legit laughed in her face and called him an idiot who got what he deserved.

she kinda didnt say anything for a minute, and looked at the ground and finally just goes "yeah...i know"

>- The media was really reprehensible back then for focusing
>exclusively on the players and blaming hip-hop and tattoos.
>Fuck 'em.


and without seeing the doc, it sounds like the player's dress code was instituted in large part because of aftermath of the brawl. I was around for it, but the brawl wasn't that big a deal in my eyes outside of the players getting suspended. I didn't view the league or players different or negatively at all.

Set a whole phone reminder for this lol

And it lived up to the hype. Saw footage that I had never seen before or didn’t even know existed

I don't ever think about Reggie Miller when the malice pops in my mind. His face is on the Netflix thumbnail. Haven't watched yet... I don't even know what role he played.
I know he was near the end, so with the age difference, and perhaps mentality, I'm imagining him like "WTF!"

.

seemingly then and now.

Supposedly Artest and the guy that through the cup got together to squash everything.

I'm going to try and run that this weekend.

going to root around for it, this weekend.

I guess it does follow him around, but I never immediately associate him with it.

married him to that moment longer than the other 2.

Old boy would have been KTFO or dead. Still don't understand the clown that squared up on the floor against Ron. He got everything he deserved.

I forgot exactly how bad the media coverage and angle was on this. Every time I heard 'thug' the bile and rage inched up in my throat

cry

damn david... seeing Stephen A in 2004 again was almost jarring--like he's on valium compared to his energy now

Pistons who would go on to win series and beat the Lakers in the Finals.

I feel like the Lakers would've destroyed that Pacer team even with Karl Malone hobbled.

>I feel like the Lakers would've destroyed that Pacer team even
>with Karl Malone hobbled.

My wife isn’t a basketball fan but she loves documentaries.

She clapped when it ended.

That implosion of the building and the curtain closing was fantastic.

When I watched that one, I was interested in hearing more from O'Neal, and I'm glad they gave him attention this time.

Other thoughts:


- Maybe it's just me, but I hadn't heard Wallace talk about the incident before. He wasn't particularly effusive, but I'm glad he gave some of his perspective.

- That fan who ran on the court came off by far as the biggest jackhole ever. Even Green recognizes that what he did was foul. It's kind of amazing that Abad is still a fucking dipshit.

- I wanted more of Tinsley and the dust-pan, especially after they showed how he sorta set it off.

>- There's ONE quote that made the entire documentary, but I don't want to
>spoil it for those who haven't seen it.
>Stephen was quoting something Ron Artest said AFTER the game was over.
>It's been a while since I laughed that hard.

Ha. I'd heard that quote before. Jax has talked about it on other appearances and in the Artest documentary.

I'm actually surprised that they left out Jax's response. He apparently turned to Artest and saidm "Trouble?!?!?! Ron, we might not ever play again."

>- Maybe it's just me, but I hadn't heard Wallace talk about
>the incident before. He wasn't particularly effusive, but I'm
>glad he gave some of his perspective.

Agreed. But man, I'd really like to hear from Sheed on this too.
I know this was a Jermaine O'Neal produced feature, but I wonder if they reached out to Wallace.

Both were cut out because of "time restraints"

to go away from a more physical style of play and take away hand-checking and other things like that because of the image to was being portrayed about the league as the "TBA-Thug Basketball Association".

They needed people like Steve Nash and Dirk to win MVP's and take back the "face" of the league. Kobe was probably the best player around that time but was coming off the rape case. Lebron wasn't quite ready.

after Sheed got to Detroit we went 13 games in a row holding teams under 70 pts

the league cant have that

Didn't know about Ben's brother dying
Great doc
A series of mistakes all around
I never really blamed the players...so it didn't change much for me TBH
I can see why they don't want to talk about it, but I'm glad they did
Best part was JO talking about it...feel like we know the least about him off the court...so it was good to get to know some of his personality
Forgot how good JO and Ron were...Ron absolutely was a problem every night and JO had his best years in IND
They would've been a problem going forward had they stayed together and replaced Reggie
Only issue I take is with Reggie a$$uming IND would have beat the LAL in the finals
I'm confident Kobe and Shaq would've beat the brakes off them...again.
FOH Reggie
Interesting contrast to what happened this year with the spit and popcorn throwing...those 2004 hot takes were cringeworthy
2021, literally no one took that angle and everyone blamed the fans...just a weird contrast to what the narrative was in 2004
Maybe some fans needed to catch a few to change that narrative

All of a sudden he was doing 13 and 6, when age wise he should’ve still been in his prime. I assume it was injuries catching up.

with this incident

this whole clip is great, but the Malice In The Palace part starts at 2:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8b81UM74Ow

She had no idea what Malice at the Palace was so it reminded me that this doc had just come out so we watched it.

and Jermaine.

Throw Matt Barnes in there to for good measure, just because that's Jax's guy.

Whatever happens, happens.

That dude is a piece of work. "Somehow I wound up on the court"

Dude ran up to Ron with every bit of body language signaling that he was ready to scrap.

He said Ron "sucker punched" him.

He went up to Ron, face to face, ready to scrap, and got punched for it. That's anything but a sucker punch.

The bitch move is squaring up, getting the losing end of it, and then fifteen years later, still pretending that you were a victim.

This man is pure garbage and I have no qualms about making broader assumptions about his character outside of this, because he's willing to say all this with a straight face, on camera, 15 years after the fact, despite footage to the clear contrary.

Frankly, I think he's just as bad as that POS John Green. He should have served time too. He's another who, in his interviews, was pure trash. Just a garbage human being. Ron made his peace and reached out. Good on Ron for that, but that man is garbage.

That POS should have gotten time for that.

Even the clip at the time where he's talking about how his face hurts, and needs x-rays.

The only thing that saves him from being the biggest POS on this entire doc, is the repugnant media response.

I wonder if anyone has any regrets about their response. I highly doubt that. The players have a share of responsibility here, but the portrayal of them as thugs for this was way over the line. Ditto the talk of them being spoiled, overpaid, etc.

seems they were no where to be found during the actual brawl,I imagine they became spectators too.

Jax mentioned how they were all tight friends away from the ball ,and woudve been interesting to see how Pistons react if they had been wetted by a fan too

Like, I'm listening to Jermaine's interview on Russillo now and there's plenty they talk about here that was only alluded to in the doc, like expanding on the fan's aggressive behavior explaining he'd threatened Yao Ming previously. Kinda weird since the Way brothers' last feature for Netflix, Wild Wild Country, was almost TOO exhaustive LOL.


Didn't feel so much like a doc as a spruced up 60 Minutes editorial but I'll be recommending it around. I get it, too - clearly these three guys are tired of talking about this thing, they just saw an opportunity to capitalize on it one more time.


PLUS, it does feel like a really important catalyst for the current player empowerment era. This is the last legs (or the first steps of the last legs, anyway) of that time when the mainstream opinion was that guy from the Bill Burr joke complaining that the players made too much money to be annoyed with fans or the media, whereas now "shut up and dribble" maybe isn't quite fringe yet but definitely gets framed negatively when it comes up.


I sometimes wonder what the suspension situation would be like for a very similar incident in the past five or so years.

~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

honestly it seems like Jermaine O'Neal trying to re-shape his own legacy more than anything

>honestly it seems like Jermaine O'Neal trying to re-shape his
>own legacy more than anything

I didn’t know Ben’s bro died
I didn’t know a therapist traveled with the team.
I also just had never heard JO or Artest speak that much, before.

>I didn’t know Ben’s bro died
>I didn’t know a therapist traveled with the team.
>I also just had never heard JO or Artest speak that much,
>before.

I thought I remembered hearing something about Ben's brother being part of the fight not sure if that was a different brother or the stories got confused

>I thought I remembered hearing something about Ben's brother
>being part of the fight not sure if that was a different
>brother or the stories got confused

It's been so long, but I feel like either the night of or a few nights later I remember hearing that Wallace's brother was involved in the initial fight after the Artest foul. Or was at least yelling shit at Artest. But yeah, it could be either thing that you mentioned.

I enjoyed all the context building stuff more than anything about the event. I could've used some more about who the Pistons were at that time, what happened to the rest of them besides Artest (which structurally was just weird considering how long it lingered on O'Neal in the first third) afterward and examined more of the fallout in the years following.


Like you've got people in this thread that couldn't remember this is the specific key the NBA needed to institute the dress code, it would've been cool to get a look into how they and other players felt about the whole thing in the years afterward as the league tightened the vice on players' freedom of expression and, again, the fans/media vs. players piece, whereas now it feels like fans/players vs. ownership. Especially if this is the last time most of these guys are going to talk about this time of their lives at any great length.


I just think they opened enough doors surrounding the brawl itself they could've kept exploring some of that.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

is it that its still in place but not enforced anymore, since Silver has somewhat seemingly embraced hiphop culture, unlike Stern..

or was rule officially eradicated at some point??

A lot of players now dress casually going to games.

Untold ep 2…yeah, they could’ve explored a lot of corollaries
But this is a series based on background into sports topics
…of which malice in the palace is an episode…

me - sophomore in undergrad and packing to go home for thanksgiving break when I glanced up and saw ben wallace shove ron artest..

little did i know i was about to watch the most amazing 20 mins of nba player fan "interactions" ever.


the only pacer I felt bad for was Reggie Miller.

Syracuse played Memphis(the Rodney Carney squad), so I was up in my bedroom watching because I liked to focus and have no distractions and then at some point they showed the highlights. Crazy to think that was pre-twitter and very early stages of YouTube so you couldnt just pull up the video as soon as you caught wind of something.

I agreed to come to NY to film Fresh Produce, an artist showcase featuring a lot of OKP's at the time, Tanya Morgan being one of them.
Our flight had just got in that evening, and an OKP said we could hang at her house.
We were in her living room watching the game, which for most of the evening was just background noise.
But then the fight broke out and well...EVERYBODY was watching it.

The most interesting part was reading all the NY tabloids the next day.

>I agreed to come to NY to film Fresh Produce, an artist
>showcase featuring a lot of OKP's at the time, Tanya Morgan
>being one of them.
>Our flight had just got in that evening, and an OKP said we
>could hang at her house.
>We were in her living room watching the game, which for most
>of the evening was just background noise.
>But then the fight broke out and well...EVERYBODY was watching
>it.
>
>The most interesting part was reading all the NY tabloids the
>next day.

are those dudes still making music?

and a full length album, yesterday. It’s just Don and Von, but they’ve consistently put out music since they came out.

I lost track of them for a few years but caught back up on the stuff in the middle of their career that I had missed. They’ve really got a strong catalogue.

infamous post in OKS history went up then ran to the nearest tv to see if it was real...

https://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=21&topic_id=1399&mesg_id=1399&listing_type=search

…had me depressed / stressed .


>infamous post in OKS history went up then ran to the nearest
>tv to see if it was real...
>
>https://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=21&topic_id=1399&mesg_id=1399&listing_type=search

had no idea there was a whole different world on the internet back then

Hez was like “yall on the site”

we were all looking at him like he was crazy.

“site? boards? online community? wtf is that?”

I had gone over at the homie's house to "broadcast" music (we only had the reach of a few blocks). He had a TV right above the mix set-up, and I watched it as it was happening.

Moved to Philly at the end of that summer
Freshman year at Drexel
Got a job working nights/weekends barbacking in Old City
Must’ve been the weekend when it happened
I remember the first couple of times it came on the 11pm sports center
People were completely stopping what they were doing, pointing, etc…huddling around the TV at the bar
I’m working…so it didn’t really register the first couple of times
Someone’s like…yo, you see this $hit..
Finally caught it, and TBH, I didn’t really think much of it at the time
Just looked like a bball fight to me…seen those before
I do remember after that, you couldn’t get away from it
But yeah, vividly remember it, but I was really busy at that time of my life.

I didn't see the game, but I heard about it and when online to see the clips.

my buddy and I were about to turn it off an play NHL when the foul happened and instead we sat there with our jaws on the floor

It was a Friday and I had decided I wasn't going on that night. Atypical for a Friday night. I can't remember if it was cold, or if I was just dragging my feet on figuring something out, or if the mayhem just glued me to the screens. But I was watching the game in my room and then the brawl happened. I texted a bunch of people and then ran downstairs to the computer lab to jump on okp, where I stayed for the rest of the night. Laughing and laughing at the thread

that portland team that had jermaine oneal was so loaded. i wish steve smith or sheed or bonzi or pippen or derek anderson or damon stoudamire or someone had hit a few buckets in that 4th quarter collapse vs the lakers.

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP7xRieiZm0
>
>- I was skeptical about this mainly because you feel like
>you've seen and heard everything about this, but this was very
>well done.
>- I'm having a hard time figuring out who had the best
>interview between Metta, Jermaine and Stephen. All were
>fantastic.
>- Could not believe they interviewed the fan that ran on the
>court.
>- LOVED Metta's honesty about winning a championship near the
>end of the film.
>- The editing and graphical treatment for this entire film was
>on point. The ending shot of the film had me standing and
>applauding.
>- Beautifully shot interviews. Especially Stephen Jackson's
>interview. What's common used as a hair light was reversed and
>used on his face for the profile shot. Very clean.
>- Did I mention that the interviews were great?
>
>- There's ONE quote that made the entire documentary, but I
>don't want to spoil it for those who haven't seen it.
>Stephen was quoting something Ron Artest said AFTER the game
>was over. It's been a while since I laughed that hard.
>
>

Other than that it was a pity party for the Pacers. I do feel bad for JO for this shit derailing his career in Indy and for Reggie having to go out like that but otherwise what the hell did they expect?

Donnie Walsh kept it 100. He rolled the dice bringing these dudes in and it kind of blew up in their face.

Then Artest bitched out and left. I at least give him credit for admitting how cowardly that was later.

I always thought the biggest weakness of that squad was Tinsley and now I find out it was in more ways than one.

but was cut for time.

They’re smart not to speak on it
There’s nothing to gain
If they were to say something negative about the fans or the city it would change how they are viewed and received in DET
I found it interesting on the 2021 rewatch…not one of them dudes had hands for Ron or Jax once they stole on those fools
All that pushing, shoving, talking $hit, throwing things, etc…
DET players all of the sudden couldn’t be bothered to climb a few rows and square up
Rip doing the tango with a staff member…LOL
They really look like some bitche$ IMO
Bad boys did not come out and play.

The only real fight to be had was with Ben and Artest and Ron didn't want none of that smoke. Why the hell would the rest of the players start fighting each other? This is some stupid shit man. A lot of them grew up together.

an opposing team hand out beat downs to your fans, in your house, after you started the $hit

Watching the footage now, the start looks like the classic fake bball brawl with 20+ people in between 2 people...hold me back, hold me back...

When it got really real...whattheydo?

Friends or not, there's a line
That line was crossed
They ain't do $hit.

To my point, if DET players were included in this episode, I would expect a lot of it sound like...
...see, what had happened was...LOL

Great take.

This is a ridiculous take. Let it go man. This isn't the Thunderdome. They're not about to strap up and defend some asshole who threw a cup. I'd be willing to bet they care more about the other team than those damn fans. And they should.

SMH.

If anything, they should’ve done more to shut the fans down.

Of course it wasn’t a real beef between the players. They almost never are.

Obviously, in real time, a lot of folks didn't know exactly what was going on
I pulled up some of the broadcasts
The cup being thrown wasn't even caught until after everything settled down
Shoutout to Mike Breen for calling out Ben in real time

Should they have sided with the fans...of course not...they were completely wrong
But watching Ben instigate the throwing of objects...
...let's be real...Ben was ejected...if he just walks back to the locker room and has his outburst there...none of this happens
So I guess it's more of being partly responsible for the level it went to...and then just standing there and watching it all burn down...
Yeah, they could've walked another 10-15ft and broke that $hit up...and if Ben really wanted to throw hands with Ron, nobody would've faulted him for that IMO
On top of what we know now about the absence of security/police

All the bravado, chest thumping, etc...and then when it went down
Whattheydo?

I don't expect them to start going toe to toe with any and every Pacer
But to throw those rocks and then hide your hand is some coward $hit
...and to my initial point...
That's what I would expect them to say if they were featured in the episode...I would expect them to shift blame to the Pacers...and try to absolve Ben of being the instigator.

ded with the fans...of course not...they
>were completely wrong
>But watching Ben instigate the throwing of objects...
>...let's be real...Ben was ejected...if he just walks back to
>the locker room and has his outburst there...none of this
>happens
>So I guess it's more of being partly responsible for the level
>it went to...and then just standing there and watching it all
>burn down...

He's not at ALL responsible.
For ANY of this.

He's responsible for his part in what happened on the court.
No more, no less.

Spoiler: There's no documentary to be made for that. That's news, but not headline news. And nobody is going to revisit two players getting into the non-fight you're talking about.

You know who is responsible for the actual "Malice In The Palace" though?

The fan who threw a fucking drink at a player.

End of story. The players who reacted, share a piece of that blame.

But Ben throwing a wrist band at another player isn't an invitation for fans to throw shit too.

What kind of backward ass logic is that?

You sound like the media covering this at the time, trying to shift as much blame as possible to the players- up to and including a player who had absolutely nothing to do with the actual incident at the center of the newsworthy part of all this.

We've seen all manner of inter-player dust ups.

That doesn't mean the fans were part of it

In this instance, a few fans decided to make themselves part of it.

And it was one fan in particular that is responsible for this incident. But Ben Wallace throwing wristbands has nothing to do with that.

This team was some lunchpail, blue collar shit.

Not the Bad Boys.

You're a decade and a half late on that moniker.

Not even the point…but here you go

https://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/2/bad-boys-2-the-detroit-pistons-slam-cover-atiba-jefferson.jpg

The fansite and Twitter feed are also named badboys

Are they calling themselves the Bad Boys?

And you're right- even if, somewhere you can find a line or two where one of them says just that, it is beside the point.

Because your whole "point" is... they didn't fight each other in a professional basketball game.

That's your big critique.

One on hand, you're shitting on the Pistons for not fighting.

On the other, you're talking about how Ron didn't want the smoke with Ben.

Your whole point, and criticism, is that there wasn't enough player-on-player violence. Which isn't much of a point.

Everyone in this doc was remorseful and clearly wishes things had gone down differently. Jax is glad that he rode for his brothers, but he's not celebrating the event itself. Just that he was there for his people.

Everyone, that is, except for the puerto rican POS, who doesn't take any responsibility at all for his own gross, antagonistic- and opportunistic- actions.

But your big takeaway was that the players didn't fight each other, and how dare the pistons call themselves bad boys when they didn't fight.

Even with the benefit of hindsight, that's your big "point".

Cool. I'm sure that shit plays well with the boys in your fight club.

IMO DET players were cut from the episode because they wouldn’t have an unbiased perspective

…and yes, Ben throwing $hit across the court at Ron was the catalyst for the fan doing the same…

Ben takes his tantrum into the locker room after being ejected…the malice doesn’t happen IMO

Never advocated for anyone to fight
I think it’s cowardly to start that $hit and then just stand there and watch the chaos unfold
All that fake tough guy energy could have been put to breaking it up

Read better.

He said theres a lot from all people that were involved that he wishes was kept in and would have been if was up to him.