than Lonzo and Lonzo has better assist, rebound, block & steal numbers and his team has a better record.

Sac & Dallas are the 2 worst teams in the West, it’s a lot easier to pad with zero expectations.

If you base it off of stats or your eyes and you're not a Lakers fan or have stock in the Big Beige Baller Corp, you can clearly see that.

Lonzo' s also the 2nd highest rated defender on the team (trailing BI, team is currently 6th in defensive rating - the major reason for our relative success thus far)

I just know better.

I said better last year.

Said better at the draft.

I'm still saying better.

my $$$$$ is on Lonzo.

>my $$$$$ is on Lonzo.

He might not throw the best outlet baseball passes, but he's better at everything else.

gave him the ball twice down the stretch


was at the game last night. the kid is unbelievably quick in person. Kings squad is lowkey fun to watch

I like Justin Jackson. Malachi came in and made some good shots too.

WCS has to stay engaged though.

The inconsistencies of a young squad. I’m getting madder and madder seeing Russell become the player I thought he’d be though. Fuckin Mosgov.

10 shots, 10 shots and 28 minutes for everybody. Shit. I don’t even know what I’m mad at, at this point. I’m just mad.

The two 5 minute stretches where he left the game (end of the 1st and 3rd)...Milwaukee built their lead

On ebled the defensive beast

.

shit games in a row and you were quiet as hell lol

got in their feelings and thought this was about Lonzo.

This about D-Fox being better than all them guards Markelle, Dennis Smith, Frankie the Knick, Donovan Mitchell, and Lonzo. With Lonzo having a good chance of being the worst out of all of them.

(I didn't include Monk cuz ape don't kill ape)

>got in their feelings and thought this was about Lonzo.
>
>This about D-Fox being better than all them guards Markelle,
>Dennis Smith, Frankie the Knick, Donovan Mitchell, and Lonzo.
>With Lonzo having a good chance of being the worst out of all
>of them.

How many of them have 2 triple doubles? Or 1? I’ll wait...

Fox ain’t better than Smith either.

How'd that work out for the Lakers the last 2 games?

Every time they make a run, your mans on the bench.

Why?

Efg% - Fox
Ftr - Fox
Orb% - Zo
Drb% - Zo
Trb% - Zo
Ast% - Zo
Stl% - Zo
Blk % - Zo
Tov% - Fox
Usg - Zo
OWS - Fox
DWS - Zo (by far the biggest discrepancy of all the numbers, Zo is 10x of D'Aaron)
WS - Zo
WS/48 - Zo

As a straight up comparison (not a fan of this but considering it's your thing, I'll go with it) - D'Aaron is shooting better and getting to the line more with less turnovers, while Zo has been the better rebounder, passer, by far the better defender, and contributed more to his team's positive output.

Compared to the league averages - Fox is shooting below average from the field while doing everything else below average, while Lonzo is shooting way below average from the field while doing everything else above average.

I know you don't watch the Lakers outside of national games but it's pretty clear who is playing better once you take off the UK tinted glasses.

Go for it.

Fox has been better in every game I’ve ever seen them play against each other. And most of the work Lonzo has done has been rather inconsequential to the outcome of those games (See the 2 threes in garbage time”).

Lonzo has played more though and has a lot longer leash than Fox. But that’s how they’re bringing Fox along. So sure, Fox doesn’t play huge minutes and they team doesn’t strategize for Fox to get rebounds.

And since Fox has been inserted into the starting lineup his play has been drastically better. See last 10 games.

And oh.... I was at the game on Tuesday and he played like shit. His first shot looked like one of the kids that shot during halftime after doing a sack race in a giant Takis bag.
And when the Lakers played well, he wasn’t in the game. Surprise surprise.

So in all of the games I’ve seen, he’s been shit. The games I saw in person he was shit. His stats show that he’s shit. What do you expect me to think? I gotta watch all of his games now to catch a positive display of ability?

Your excuses are tired. If you’re tight cuz your squad picked a dud, that’s on you.

That's why we have data - so we can see through dudes like you who are blatantly biased with limited understanding of the game and believe their own anecdotal information while missing the forest for the trees.

As far as the minutes differential, that's why I used #'s that are rates and %'s so it normalizes for that. Additionally, the team doesn't "strategize" to get Lonzo rebounds (that would be OKC last season and not a bad strategy at that), it was BShaw, prior to the Bulls game, who told him to start attacking the glass again because he's our best outlet passer (whereas Fox likes to dribble up-court rather than use the speed of the pass, different styles).

Lol at all the drivel when true, normalized metrics are staring you right in the face...it's sad you have to resort to the Sarah Huckabee Sanders school of PR.

I'll leave you to respond with your basic takes.

Your man has been trash. Let’s not pretend that I’m the only one that has pointed this out as fact. Maybe we all have limited basketball knowledge and can’t comprehend the impact of bumass Lonzo.

You couldn’t refute any argument that I’ve already made. How in the world did people watch basketball without Advanced Stats? You’re one of those guys.

We gotta sit here and pretend that Lonzo has been average because he’s a Laker? And I’m biased? You act like you’d be caping this hard if he wasn’t a Laker? FOH.

C’mon... fam... not like this. This ain’t the hill to die on.

Normalized data >>>>>>> anecdotal "data"

Until you take into account more than just "SAC vs LA games where Fox is playing more than 'brought-along-slowly' minutes" then it's clear that Ball has been more productive with his minutes than Fox.

his response. That shit's lame.

But oh well... I guess me calling that out wasn't enough for you guys. Now I don't look at Lonzo's stats. And I don't watch Fox's stats. But now that I have, the stats do match what I see with my "anecdotal data" or eye test as I've seen since every time they have played against one another or on the same court.

As I pointed out their minutes has been drastically different in the first 18-19 games of their careers, but if you look at their stats Per 36 the picture gets a bit clearer.

Per 36 Minutes:
Fox vs Ball:
Pts: 15.1 vs 9.7
FG%: .410 vs .315
3P%: .320 vs 250
2P%: .424 vs .363
FT%: .711 vs .429
FTA: 3.4 vs 1.6
TOV: 3.1 vs 2.8
Blks: 0.2 vs 0.9
Steals: 1.1 vs 1.5
Ast: 6.3 vs 7.7
Rbd: 4.2 vs 8.0

Fox is scoring more. Right there with assists. He's not being sent to crash the boards as often. But LA's claim is Ball is crashing the boards, because he's their best outlet passer. Is their data to back up that claim or is that what he feels based off a few baseball passes scattered throughout the season?

Per 100 Possessions the gap widens:
Fox vs Ball:
Pts: 21.2 vs 12.6
TOV: 4.3 vs 3.7
Blk: 0.2 vs 1.2
Stl: 1.6 vs 2.0
Ast: 8.8 vs 9.9
Rbd: 5.8 vs 10.4

If you compare Fox, Ball, Ntilikina, and Smith per 100 Possessions. It goes.
Pts: Smith, Fox, Ball, Ntilikina
TOV: Ball, Fox, Ntilikina, Smith
Blk: Ball, Smith, Ntilikina, Fox
Stl: Ntilikina, Ball, Smith/Fox
Ast: Ball, Ntilikina, Fox, Smith
Rbd: Ball, Smith, Fox, Ntilkina
FT%: Fox, Smith, Ntilikina, Ball
FT Attempts: Fox, Smith, Ntilkina, Ball
2P%: Fox, Smith, Ntilkina, Ball
3P%: Fox, Smith, Ntilkina/Ball
FG % Fox, Smith, Ntilikina, Ball


We also have Fox's PER being 11.9 vs Ball's 10.3.

But know... let's highlight all of the Rebounding percentages right?

Not to mention that Fox is getting better as his role has expanded. His shooting improved over the last 10 up to .418. And over his last 5 games .463 and hasn't missed a 3 in 4 tries. While Ball might as well be shooting with his feet. .321 over his last 10 and .320 FG% over his last 5 and .250 3P% over his last 5.

So you agree then that statistical analysis is more significant than just games you watch, right? That's a fair assessment?

Then the stats:

Points, shooting, percentages: Fox, no question, not even close.

Assists: The difference isn't the chasm that other categories are but this isn't close enough to be a wash - definitely Lonzo.

Rebounds: Head and shoulders above Fox. Lonzo is #5 among all G's . He's only behind Simmons, Westbrook, Dejounte Murray and Lance Stephenson. As far as his outlet passing, did you not know he's been doing this since high school and all throughout his year at UCLA? We saw the impact in the third game of the season when a Pelicans team featuring AD and Boogie are immediately running back on defense after shot attempts in order to limit Lonzo's outlet passing. Yes, his defensive rebounding is a threat because he's far more effective in transition than in a halfcourt offense.

Steals & Blocks (but really, Defense): About a half steal and a full block more per game. That translates to #14 overall in the league, across all positions. I notice you didn't bring up anything related to defense in your post, despite L2P specifically pointing out how wide the gap was between the two.

Those per 36 stats, Lonzo vs Fox:

STL%: 2.0 vs 1.6
BLK%: 2.0 vs 0.4
DRB%: 18.5 vs 11.2
DWS: 1.0 vs 0.1
Def. Box +/-: 2.5 vs -2.2

Offensive stats for the sake of thoroughness:
PER: 10.3 vs 11.9
TS%: .374 vs .466
ORB%: 4.3 vs 2.2
AST%: 29.4 vs 29.0
TOV%: 18 vs 16
USG%: 18.3 vs 24.0
OWS: -0.9 vs -0.4
Off. Box +/-: -3.0 vs -2.2

What does that give us overall?

WS: 0.2 vs -0.2
WS/48: .013 vs -.025
Box +/-: -0.6 vs -4.4
Value over Replacement Player: 0.2 vs -0.3


If you want to honestly assess a player, do so over his entire time on the court, not just one side. Using purely objective overall stats shows Lonzo than than Fox when defensive contributions are also taken into account. Sure, Fox may absolutely be better with more consistent minutes. But assuming Lonzo is just going regressing or plateauing when his role is changing as well is sheer bias (he's being used less in initiating the halfcourt offense and we're seeing Clarkson/Ingram/Randle handle the ball more at the start of possessions).

Is Lonzo better overall right today? Yes. At the end of the season? Who knows. Honest discourse? Let's hope.


Some bonus stats:

Lonzo being much better than expected on the defensive end has led to the Lakers being #5 in overall Defensive Rating and #8 in Adj. Defensive Rating.

If you're looking at just the Lakers in that team rating, here's Lonzo:

USG%: 18.3% (7th on team)
DWS: 1.0 (1st; Ingram/KCP #2 at 0.8, Randle/Lopez #3 at 0.7)
Def Box +/-: 2.5 (2nd; 1st is Bogut at 6.0, Nance/Brewer/Randle/Hart are next and range from 1.8 to 1.3)

Overall:

WS: 0.2 (10th; Kuzma/Lopez/KCP are #1, #2, #3 at 1.4, 1.2, 1.2)
Box +/-: -0.2 (6th; after Lopez/Nance/KCP/Bogut/Randle)
VORP: 0.2 (T-3rd; Lopez/KCP at 0.4, and Randle is also 0.2)

Fox has been better when it comes to shooting the ball, nothing else, and particularly worse defensively - to the extent where the shooting differential is overtaken by the defensive differential.

RBO is on his UK blind troll routine (as evidenced by his use of red herrings) and like most of the viewing public, is hyper-focused on scoring.

I didn’t add or take away any of the actual arguments anyways so you can miss me with that nonsense. Good grief, like dealing with a child who just wants to save face

The premise remains as it did a year ago. De'Aaron is better than all of them. You taking this personal, and you're in your feelings cuz you're super Lakers fan.

When compared to Ball, Fox is better and more aggressive offensively. And when you put his numbers Per 36 mins and 100 Possessions, it shows that. He shoots the ball drastically better.

Ball has better rebounding numbers but that is how he is being used and that is how the Lakers are constructed.

And what's worse is that Fox is improving as his role increases, and Ball is either getting worse or plateauing as the season goes on.

I don't know what to tell you. Hopefully you'll ignore this topic altogether in the future. You won't though....cuz....Lakers.

.

i guess nike had him making the rounds with nicekicks and shit like that. seems corny AF. bad taste in sneakers, too

.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Scott_Charlton/status/956721266957979648

The biggest obstacle right now for him is his frame and learning how to play through the nicks and bruises. He's very John Wall like in that sense. John used to get the these little nagging injuries early in his career.

He keeps getting better though.

Thanksgiving...

I don't do game by game updates. And he's been getting hurt too much like I said on top of hitting the wall.

Right on schedule.

was rapidly closing before Zo got hurt, they're actually shooting the same from 3.

He's definitely not better than Dennis either.

and he ended up being worse as a starter (wonder why?) and he ghosted

I’m not doing a game by game of his rookie year. There’s gonna be ups and downs. All I’m saying he’s better. If anybody wants to catch feelings, that’s play too. As long as we can have it centralized here so I don’t have to search for it years down the road.

Like, way better.

https://twitter.com/Scott_Charlton/status/957802046337503237

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=2629725&mesg_id=2629725&page=#2640088

You can simply ignore this post. Or catch feelings.

It's up to you.

https://twitter.com/Scott_Charlton/status/974140313781534720

All of them

both have immensely improved, except for DeAaron's 3 point shot.

both are having great seasons so far.

Like i said, he's having a great season too.

I got my eye on Dennis though.

💜💜💜💜💜💜

https://twitter.com/bleacherreport/status/1058176690361294849?s=21

How a guy that fast and that long, a guy who put up a better ORtg than JOHN WALL at Kentucky, slid all the way down to NUMBER FIVE is absolutely insane.

https://tinyurl.com/y9srn8k8

Ball was far superior on defense and his offensive numbers ticked up in the second half.

I get the agenda but the stats bore it out. You never did respond to my post up top breaking them down.

Ball was better last season, Fox is better now. It's all good.

and their skill sets and you could easily see the difference.

I was never going back and forth with whichever stats you or any other Laker superfan wanted to use to compare.

"It's true because I said so."

Sound familiar?

>and their skill sets and you could easily see the
>difference.
>
>I was never going back and forth with whichever stats you or
>any other Laker superfan wanted to use to compare.

You can use your metrics (watching games) or mine (stats). Either way, the metrics showed that Ball was a far better defender over Fox than Fox was a better offensive player over Ball.

You just seem to have this mental block when it comes to one side of the floor.

I completely agree that Fox is better this season. I said Ball was better last season.

Y’all try to come in with whatever stat you can find.

And it has always been, he better.

But? He better.

And then? He better.

And now you’re agreeing saying he be better, but you want to argue.

Take your L and keep it moving.

This silly circle shit is so lame. Ball was better last season, Fox is better right now. Don't see how that's such a big deal, other than your fragile ego.

You don't lose "internet points" by making up some lame "I said it, so it's true" grade school argument. You're sounding real butthurt right now, just like our president.

You trying to get a Netflix late night talk show?

Nobody giving you points for saying some dumb shit I agreed with last year.

I didn’t give a fuck about Zo’s steal % last year, why would I now?

Better player in high school.

Better in college.

Better last year.

Better this year.

Eye test and stats: Ball was the superior man and weakside defender and it showed up in blocks, rebounds, +/-, DRtg.

You haven't said shit about Fox's defense and it's exposing you because you can't defend it (pun intended).

I said better.

You talking about weakside blocks.

Lmao... who sounds ridiculous now?

Answer this simple question: who's better on defense?


(Sidenote: it's hilarious how you're resorting to the tired OKS "you mad" argument. It's what people resort to when they don't have a leg to stand on. I honestly don't give a shit if Fox or Ball has a better career, but it's crystal clear you have a UK agenda, come hell or high water. My whole argument is based on evidence while you're sounding like a hurt 5th grader.)

Cherrypicking an argument? “But who had a better Defensive Rating last season?”

Lmao.... nigga stfu.

De’Aaron Better.

You couldn't answer a very simple question because Fox was trash on the defensive end.

should've kept shooting in the second half.. not sure why he stopped. He was on fire



the weaknesses of this team are the bigs and rebounding.

sacramento has two decent building blocks with him and bagley..they will find some way to fk it up

Finally got to see the Kings, and I noticed him way more than anyone else on the team besides maybe WCS. Definitely taking over in a good way.

Go cry.

Other than that, I'm gonna go back to talking about the rise of a future NBA star.

in fact, being on a "good" team tends to mask the deficiencies of certain players.

see: Donkeylips Green

ruling out previous playoff teams that have fallen off this season...

midrange pull up Jimbo is basically impossible to guard given his speed and quickness


All Star by next season




Bruh: https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/1074486189586083840
Only a handful of players in the league who can do that

His jumper isn’t Wall jumper or Rondo’s or Mudiay’s or any dude who comes in heaving bricks at the rim.

He’s got a touch.

.

Oh indeed. Their games mesh together so well too.

Him or Murray.

cats were calling this dude trash before. I'm saying he and Marv gonna be Russ/Du-CANT 2.0

Booker
McCollum
Mitchell
Holiday
Lou Williams

he's not beating out any of those dudes

...

and that's not even counting your boy Murray who has a better shot on a first place team.

Basically your Kentucky guys are competing against each other. Booker has the worst team but he has the stats.

Williams, and I forget who else you wrote and Booker (cuz he’s been injured).

Not a better shot than Murray though, his squad leads the West.

He better. You mad.

Too many guys.

MIP award could be in play for Fox though?

>Booker
>McCollum
>Mitchell
>Holiday
>Lou Williams

Booker hasn't been healthy enough this season thus far
and the rest?

let's just say Fox has shown more

seems like he does this nightly


among pg's he's 3rd in blocks and 5th in assists




I'm calling it now. He's Westbrook without the dumb

https://streamable.com/2scmi

that motor


I love this kid. all mention of Lonzo in this post should be grounds for deportation.

Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg
http://Tupreme.com

this season, Sacramento actually has a fun team again. Hield, Bags, Fox... and they got my dude Burks there for the rest of the season too.

Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg
http://Tupreme.com

that was a Kings fan hot take earlier this year


Bagley is a PERFECT fit for what this squad is trying to do

Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg
http://Tupreme.com