The last post was over 300 strong, so it's about time for a new one.

A legend had left us, the Great Nick Bockwinel

http://www.caulifloweralleyclub.org/rip-nick-bockwinkel/

It is with a heavy heart the Cauliflower Alley Club announces that “The Greatest AWA World Champion of All Time” and former CAC President and WWE Hall Of Famer, Nicholas “Nick” Bockwinkel, passed away Saturday night at approx. 8:40 pm due to health issues.

We will have more on this later Sunday afternoon.

**EDIT** A couple of promos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nBVTkqzG58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrHM4NgQz5Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxV77nAuAQ8

I mostly remember thinking how weird a name "Bockwinkel" is, but I was pretty young. Rest in peace.

Definitely one of Lawler's top ten rivals in his heyday. Also the feud with him and Zbyszko is still one of my favorites.

Zbysko... Rick Martell....Hulk... King lawler.... Verne Gagne...

Bockwinkle was big time in the AWA for a long time..

This is the world we live in.

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/fbi-taking-anonymous-isis-threat-seriously-atlanta/npSN9/

ATLANTA — FBI officials have confirmed to Channel 2 Action News that they are taking seriously a report about an ISIS threat at a WWE Survivor Series event in Atlanta on Sunday.

The FBI released the following statement to Channel 2 Action News:
"The FBI is aware of reports of an alleged threat that includes an Atlanta, Georgia venue and event. While we take all threats seriously, we do not have specific or credible information of an attack at this time. We have, however, made the proper notifications as we continue to work closely with our law enforcement and private sector partners to keep our community safe."

The hacker group Anonymous said Saturday that it had uncovered information about Islamic State group attacks in Paris as well as locations in the U.S.

According to an article in the International Business Times:
"Anonymous also said the Islamic State group is planning an assault at the WWE Survivor Series event scheduled to take place in the Philips Arena in Atlanta Sunday at 7.30 p.m. EST, as well as attacks at multiple events in Paris. "

Channel 2's Mark Winne spoke with the director of the Georgia Emergency Management Agency, Jim Butterworth, who said his agency is working closely with the FBI, the Georgia Information Sharing and Analysis Center and others in evaluating the threat on a Sunday WWE event in Atlanta reported by the group Anonymous.

WWE released the following statement to Channel 2 Action News Saturday:
“WWE Survivor Series is currently scheduled as planned while we investigate the matter with federal, state and local authorities.”

I'm getting more excited about this the closer we get. There's a lot that's predictable but there's still interesting ways to go with it still. I do prefer 3 rounds of a tourney in one night. It's a lot to squeeze in, but I think it's fun.


Charlotte vs. Paige - After the other night I don't see how Charlotte loses this. They'll find a way to extend this feud another month or two though. Sidenote: I had more of an issue that the Reid angle came out of left field than that it happened, but I still wasn't crazy about it.

Breeze vs. Ziggler - They gotta give Breeze a win here, right? At this point I'm just hoping his trajectory is "jobber with some legitimacy" rather than just straight jobber. A win over Ziggler sets that up.

Brothers of Destruction vs. two members of the Wyatt family - This is the toughest one. Taker could get a win as a celebration of his 25 years (if Harper and/or Rowan are in the match I expect they will). Wyatt could win to force the rubber match at WM32. Kane could turn on him to set up WM32. Will there be soul-taking? What even is soul-taking? Didn't they already do that? Why are Taker and Kane back then? There's not much that makes sense here but I think the match will be entertaining. I guess I'll predict a taker win since I see heel wins in a lot of other places, but I don't mind any outcome of this really. I just want to see Strongman look Strong, man.

Random ass Survivor Series match - Like, why did they even bother at this point? There's literally no setup to this. I'm just hoping they throw Cesaro in there and have him clean house with mad running/spinning uppercuts. Can't get enough Swiss Superman these days.

Reigns vs. Del Rio - Couldn't be more obvious that it'll be Reigns. And as a big Del Rio fan I'm really disappointed in this run. He already looks bored, and I don't think anyone knows where this MexAmerica shit is going.

Ambrose vs. Owens - I like either result here, but it'll be Ambrose. They'll get around to Reigns-Owens eventually and it'll be a lot of fun though.

WWE Title - Ambrose in a heel turn over Reigns, but I'd prefer a heel Reigns. In the off-chance Owens gets into the finals I hope he'd win. If it's babyface Reigns I think Sheamus cashes in and loses.

ISIS attack? - Idk, it's probably bullshit.

>Random ass Survivor Series match - Like, why did they even
>bother at this point? There's literally no setup to this. I'm
>just hoping they throw Cesaro in there and have him clean
>house with mad running/spinning uppercuts. Can't get enough
>Swiss Superman these days.

they did like 2-3 traditional Survivor Series matches on Raw in the last couple of weeks but couldnt build to one for the actual PPV? If my son wasnt so excited to go tomorrow (little dude has had this date circled on his calendar since I bought the tickets in July) I'd be trying to sell my tickets to the highest (lowest) bidder. I hope they got some surprises in store because right now I'm feeling like I'm gonna be highly disappointed tomorrow.....



We the children of the Light, you know what I mean?
That's why I'm hating on the darkness like Paula Deen
Cause in my hood they masked up like it's Halloween
We going hard for the Rock, but we not some fiends
- Andy Mineo

but yeah...this may be the worst SS in a while, and no traditional match of note does suck.

I do think the rest of the card is strong, but I'm left wondering why they even keep the Survivor Series brand name at this point. I mean at least announce most of the participants on Raw the week of. Most of the big names are taken up so I can't imagine there's gonna be any worldbeaters in there.

>I'm getting more excited about this the closer we get.
>There's a lot that's predictable but there's still interesting
>ways to go with it still. I do prefer 3 rounds of a tourney in
>one night. It's a lot to squeeze in, but I think it's fun.


This Survivor Series has ZERO JUICE for me. Usually watch PPVs with a bunch of friends...may not even bother for this one.


>Charlotte vs. Paige - After the other night I don't see how
>Charlotte loses this. They'll find a way to extend this feud
>another month or two though.

Yeah probably, but I would love it if Natalya did a run in and crushed Charlotte to give Paige the belt, leaving together for a major swerve.


>Breeze vs. Ziggler - They gotta give Breeze a win here, right?
>At this point I'm just hoping his trajectory is "jobber with
>some legitimacy" rather than just straight jobber. A win over
>Ziggler sets that up.

I don't watch NXT, so I don't really know Breeze, but the little I've seen is corny as hell IMO. If you're gonna bring him up, you gotta put him over...Breeze wins.


>Brothers of Destruction vs. two members of the Wyatt family -
>This is the toughest one. Taker could get a win as a
>celebration of his 25 years (if Harper and/or Rowan are in the
>match I expect they will). Wyatt could win to force the rubber
>match at WM32. Kane could turn on him to set up WM32. Will
>there be soul-taking? What even is soul-taking? Didn't they
>already do that? Why are Taker and Kane back then? There's not
>much that makes sense here but I think the match will be
>entertaining. I guess I'll predict a taker win since I see
>heel wins in a lot of other places, but I don't mind any
>outcome of this really. I just want to see Strongman look
>Strong, man.


I want a final burial of the Undertaker and Kane, but I won't get it...B.O.D. in a yawner.


>Random ass Survivor Series match - Like, why did they even
>bother at this point? There's literally no setup to this. I'm
>just hoping they throw Cesaro in there and have him clean
>house with mad running/spinning uppercuts. Can't get enough
>Swiss Superman these days.


Who cares??? Not me...


>Reigns vs. Del Rio - Couldn't be more obvious that it'll be
>Reigns. And as a big Del Rio fan I'm really disappointed in
>this run. He already looks bored, and I don't think anyone
>knows where this MexAmerica shit is going.
?

They can't have my boy Del Rio waltz in off the street and beat their new golden boy after beating the old one, as much as I'd love it. Reigns wins.

>Ambrose vs. Owens - I like either result here, but it'll be
>Ambrose. They'll get around to Reigns-Owens eventually and
>it'll be a lot of fun though.


Vince isn't big on big patient build up, so "Reigns-Owens eventually" will be today. I'm gonna go Owens, just to set up....

>WWE Title - Ambrose in a heel turn over Reigns, but I'd prefer
>a heel Reigns. In the off-chance Owens gets into the finals I
>hope he'd win. If it's babyface Reigns I think Sheamus cashes
>in and loses.


...*sigh* Reigns over Owens. Having him beat the other two champions establishes the "Superman Punch" as the corniest move in WWE, supplanting the 5 Knuckle Shuffle, the People's Elbow, and the Hogan Legdrop. Sheamus cashes in and get squashed.

He was already the guy who was great but couldn't be taken too seriously in NXT, so his exit was basically him jobbing to the bigger names for a while. It's not a huge surprise that it isn't working, but there's a lot of simple things they fucked up. They shouldn't have saddled him with Summer Rae and if they allowed him more freedom on the mic (I know, we say this for half the roster) then his character would get over way better. When it's too scripted he just comes across as Fandango mixed with Ziggler.

>He was already the guy who was great but couldn't be taken
>too seriously in NXT, so his exit was basically him jobbing to
>the bigger names for a while. It's not a huge surprise that it
>isn't working, but there's a lot of simple things they fucked
>up. They shouldn't have saddled him with Summer Rae and if
>they allowed him more freedom on the mic (I know, we say this
>for half the roster) then his character would get over way
>better. When it's too scripted he just comes across as
>Fandango mixed with Ziggler.

according to JR twitter.

espn might need to go ahead and scoop her up.

Every time she left the ring I was following her back to her seat, goodness gracious....



We the children of the Light, you know what I mean?
That's why I'm hating on the darkness like Paula Deen
Cause in my hood they masked up like it's Halloween
We going hard for the Rock, but we not some fiends
- Andy Mineo

with Booker T (usually) and whoever else.

i think you talking about JoJo (black chick w/ the curly long hair). that's Jose Offerman's daughter lmao.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eden_Stiles


sidenote: JoJo looks a lot like my ex. it's really weird.

WWE always with the twists and turns that keep you interested and surprised.

I say keep both faces and keep building in that and in two years flip the switch so that whenever one of them turns there's enough emotional equity that it's an actual event instead of just another ho hum run of the mill heel turn.

Plus everyone hates Sheamus and he's dann near the perfect guy to help Reigns get over the hump with certain fans and it's worth trying to build him as a face right now. It may not work but i say stay the course and see how this plays out.

Perfect result (which I say as a Reigns fan). Credit to WWE for biding their time and not throwing the belt on him the first viable chance they could.

Dumber than the Bushwhackers even.

After Rollins cashes in and cheats his way to the title Roman should be on the lookout for any bullshit that might get in the way of finally tasting glory. Yet he continues to be caught off-guard, looking dumbfounded each time. How can anyone sympathize with this guy?

He really outdid himself last night. Anyone with half a brain would take their boss' deal to go straight to the finals of a tournament. Hell, he had every right to believe he deserved that treatment as #1 contender. Once you have the title you don't HAVE to be his lapdog.

Anyone with half a brain wouldn't spear their boss for basically no reason. Sure, you got cheap applause, but even if Sheamus doesn't cash in you know he's gonna make your life as champion a living hell until you lose.

And what has HHH done recently to deserve this? He gave you an opportunity to skip to the front of the line, you said you wanted to do it the hard way, and YOU DID. End of story. he comes out to say "Hey good job, you really earned it." Whether he's sincere or not, a spear is not in order.

Anyone with half a brain would know that the perfect opportunity to cash in the briefcase is after a grueling tournament (more reason to agree to skip to the finals btw). Shit, the confetti, Triple H being there... this has Bryan at Summerslam written all over it. GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE RING! CELEBRATE ON THE RAMP! DON'T HANG AROUND LIKE AN IDIOT!

BELIEVE THAT
____________________

<================== Learn the name now before everyone gets dunked on

they're too afraid to take risks anymore. Cena is out, so they just need to plug an affable babyface in his spot. That's their panicky line of thinking.

I maintain that they should've turned Roman Reigns last night. Then he's a made man and you spend all Winter with Ambrose chasing him, in turn heating them BOTH up even more.

When they turned Rock for the first time at Surivor Series, by the time Mania rolled around people were REALLY ready to cheer him. They should've done the same thing here. Right today Reigns isn't a consensus favorite; by April he would've been, after a long heel run.

If Reigns sells out, he could state his case from a pragmatic and vulnerable place - he was so close at Wrestlemania, it ate him alive all year long, and he wasn't going to pass up the opportunity to become champion again. Simple as that, he went with a guarantee.

And then you can add another layer to Ambrose.
Ambrose is a cartoon character right now, wrestling in jeans and playing crazy and bouncing off the ropes in the middle of matches. I don't get him, but I'm evidently in the minority because he's almost REALLY over. So think about how interesting it would be if after Reigns turns, crazy man Ambrose is ironically the one guy who's left standing alone without having ever sacrificed his ideals. Go deep with it - "I never had friends, I never trusted anyone, and now the only two guys I ever believed in have both stabbed me in the back." Now he's incensed! And the empathy is built in too - not only is he angrier than ever but dammit everyone is BOUGHT IN on this guy getting his revenge.


I just think mostly through no fault of his own that Reigns is pretty uninteresting. Ambrose is also not my cup of tea. Turning Roman Reigns heel could've made both him and Ambrose a lot more intriguing.

smarks love booing him, marks and kids like him but aren't as crazy about him as Cena, and the company needs a big heel more than it needs a big face. It's much easier to get away with not talking as a heel than a face. You really gonna rely on Sheamus as your top heel, even for a month or two?


>If Reigns sells out, he could state his case from a pragmatic
>and vulnerable place - he was so close at Wrestlemania, it ate
>him alive all year long, and he wasn't going to pass up the
>opportunity to become champion again. Simple as that, he went
>with a guarantee.

I'm willing to hold out hope that this is the long-term plan, but probably not. Either way, I think that's what they should go with.


>
>I just think mostly through no fault of his own that Reigns is
>pretty uninteresting. Ambrose is also not my cup of tea.
>Turning Roman Reigns heel could've made both him and Ambrose a
>lot more intriguing.
>

co-sign. it's so simple, but apparently it makes too much sense.

but I respect that he (and creative) stuck with it and turned the tide significantly. I agree he's perhaps not yet as over as he could be, but I think he's done well.

which is the main reason I think heel Reigns works better. I think it's easier to be the big (relatively) silent enforcer heel, and we already know he excels in that role. I mean the Raw promo he cut on Wyatt about his daughter is one of the worst in recent memory and if they're giving him Cena-level attention then he needs to be able to turn around those crowds that hate him. As monotonous as those speeches are, there's a skill in that, and he's just gonna continue to look dumb most weeks if they continue down this path.

It would've made sense if HHH was making his life difficult in the run up to SS.

Oh, and credit to the poster in the last wrestling thread who called the Sheamus cash-in following a Reigns win.

Crying in the ring? Your top babyface?

Who wrote this?

as a kid i used to think that was the biggest belt ever.....it also seemed like he and harley race were nwa and awa champs for like EVER...

>as a kid i used to think that was the biggest belt
>ever.....it also seemed like he and harley race were nwa and
>awa champs for like EVER...

Bockwinkel and Verna Gagne were the AWA champs for ages...lol

The fact that they continue to abide by "time constraints" when they have their own network they can do anything with confuses me greatly. They don't even seem to care When Raw's final match starts at 10:55, but PPVs that aren't paid per view have strict rules. Ambrose-Reigns should have gone longer. Afterall, how long does a coronation and cash-in really take? I guess I prefer a 1-2 month Sheamus run over a boring babyface Reigns win, but I think there were many more creative ways to go with this. Have to chalk this up in the disappointment column.

The semifinals were the clear highlight to me, which probably shouldn't happen. Reigns-Del Rio was nice, and made a rudderless ADR look decent in a loss that needed to happen. Ambrose-Owens was the match of the night.

Taker's win was fan service and I'm totally fine with that. Still, putting Harper in only makes sense from a booking standpoint, but from Bray's angle... why the hell wouldn't you put in Strong Broman? Isn't bray supposed to be smart or something?

I was really disappointed in the "We Want Sasha" chants during Charlotte-Paige. I'd argue that it gets your point across on Raw and Smackdown, but is pointless on a PPV. WTF do you think they're gonna do, call an audible and throw Banks in there? Mind you, I'm the biggest Sasha fan, and this feud does nothing for me, but I still saw it as disrespectful to the performers. The match was no classic, but they were putting together something that made sense and then the air was sucked out of the room by those chants.

But that's not to let WWE off the hook here. They tried a desperate attempt at throwing it into 6th gear last week, then eased off the gas by not mentioning Reid at all yesterday. If you're gonna go there you gotta commit. You're not gonna get any more outside criticism than you already have, and Paige could get much-needed heat.

Breeze-Ziggler happened and was booked correctly. That's all I have to say about that. I skipped both SS matches cause I started late and needed to sleep.

This is getting real WCWish.

"Oh, I bet the Raw after Survivor Series will have some crazy shit."

Nope. Just garbage.

the Charlotte/Paige fiasco

UGGGHHHH

Why was Henry even there?

What was Heath Slater doing? Is he in a program with Ryback now? Why?

Why are Ambrose and Ziggler wrestling Breeze and Owens?

like... wtf is this?

The post SS reaction in here is just about the most tone def I've ever seen.

It's like some of you have never watched pro wrestling before.

Triple H has done nothing to warrant a spear?
People shouldn't attack their boss!
Why is Reigns crying? He's their top babyface! THAT NEVER HAPPENS!
What an idiot, he got attacked! Don't stay in the ring!
What an idiot, he chose to earn his title instead of taking the easy way out! What a dummy!

Easily some of the worst critiques I've ever read on OKP. These are 100% due to the fact that this is Reigns, unless you just plain don't know a thing about pro wrestling.

Definitely an analytical low point.

he's greatly improved in the ring and i think he can be champ with the right circumstances, but the writing for him is just plain dumb. i don't actually care about him staying in the ring or trying to earn his way up, i'm mostly just having some fun with those, but the character is written REALLY dumb. his motivations are really fuzzy and something about family and brothers and punching people in the mouth and blah blah blah.

they've tried to fix everything they did wrong before last year's rumble, but they've only gone halfway. this latest tournament does not make him a sympathetic figure, and that was the whole point.

>Triple H has done nothing to warrant a spear?

not recently, no. he offered reigns a deal to shoot straight to the top, just like he had earned. reigns decided not to... fine. had HHH gone out of his way to try to screw him during the tourney, THEN he deserves a spear. but he didn't. he let the tournament play out, watched reigns earn it, then came out for the handshake. even if you don't trust his intentions, BE ON THE LOOKOUT FOR SHEAMUS.

OF COURSE the plan would be HHH serves as the distraction while sheamus cashes in.

The top face is often booked stupid to do things that make no logical sense. The top face is often the most hated person in the IWC so you tend to see them taking the brunt of that hate due to the combo.

because Cena has other intangibles that'll keep people watching (for the most part).

And maybe "make it easier for everyone" is the point, maybe this shit just isn't for me anymore and I'm holding onto an idea that is antiquated, the idea that stories can be told with consistency and nuance.

It's not just Reigns dude, it's everything. It is lazy, obvious, inconsistent writing plagues that plagues this show.

Some more recent examples:

- What did the Wyatts do with Kane and Undertaker? And how were Kane and Undertaker allowed to simply reappear a few short weeks after these abductions seemingly unscathed? Did they escape from some dark lair, were they brainwashed? (And don't get me started on the Wyatts. Their writing is the worst across the entire show.)

- WWE conveniently played up Reigns being related to the Rock earlier in the year...and last time Survivor Series hosted a tournament for the world title, the Rock won after selling out to a similar authority figure...why not remind the audience of this and openly question Reigns motivations? Why not lean on that lineage more and wonder aloud if Rock and Reigns had talked going into the tournament, implying that Reigns may too seize a similar opportunity? Again, NUANCE - have some fun with it and plant those seeds of doubt in the minds of the viewers!!!

- What makes Dean Ambrose crazy? Where is Dean Ambrose from? WHO THE FUCK IS DEAN AMBROSE??? I mean he's announced from Ohio and we can assume that he's from some white trash town - but have we seen this town or him in this environment? Is he just some wacko in jeans, or is he a kid with a troubled past from the wrong side of the tracks who escaped his meager surroundings and had his life saved by wrestling?


These aren't nitpicky questions, they're fair questions that are a direct result of the gaping holes that are left time and again in the storytelling. No nuance, no foreshadowing, no canon, barely any attention to detail.

The reason I'm so charged up about these things is because they used to care about backstory and hints and subtlety and feel. Go back and watch the buildup to the Wrestlemania 12 main event. Besides the point that that main event is one of the more overrated matches ever, the build to it was SOAKED in emotion.

Go back and watch the stuff where Jake and Taker are haunting Savage. THEN, watch when Taker turns babyface...even this pale white dead monster has VALUES. (http://www.wwe.com/videos/undertaker-saves-miss-elizabeth-from-a-backstage-attack-superstars-feb-15-1992-26149537) From that very moment you are ON Team Taker.

There's no fucking depth in this show anymore. None. I can't bring myself to care about any of these guys. Sheamus, Del Rio, Ambrose, Reigns. They're faces. They're proof that all of the talent and good looks in the world can only take you so far IF THERE'S NO CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. There's a reason the crowd pops huge when they trot Shawn out a few times a year - it's not just because he's the all time best in ring worker ever, it's because we KNOW that Shawn is a reformed addict who saved his life and found redemption! We all have an uncle Shawn dude. THAT's part of Shawn's legened, as much as Undertaker's backstage reputation is now part of his onscreen mystique. CM Punk really WAS frustrated. Daniel Bryan really WAS shit on time and again. DEPTH DEPTH DEPTH DEPTH, find some.

Who are these guys and why are they here and what do they hope to accomplish????? They don't answer those questions enough, and when they do answer these questions the answers are so god damn obvious and hamfisted that even my fifth grade self would've thought this was corny.

The issue is NOT Roman Reigns. Reigns should be great and should inevitably end up in the Hall of Fame. The issue is that I really don't CARE about Roman Reigns. That isn't his fault at all.

>And maybe "make it easier for everyone" is the point, maybe
>this shit just isn't for me anymore and I'm holding onto an
>idea that is antiquated, the idea that stories can be told
>with consistency and nuance.

This is literally the problem. I'm a grown man in my 30's and wrestling is not written for me as much as I want it to be.

Us watching and getting mad that it's aimed as kids is literally the equivalent of us turning on Disney Channel or something and getting mad that we don't like the shows on it and they were better when we were a kid.

WWE had a brief run aimed at older audiences, but that was almost 20 years ago at this point.

Aiming at 10-year-olds doesn't absolve you from actually telling a story.

If you want to have little guy Neville scratch out a win against giant Mark Henry, fine, but even a child should be presented with some reason, some cause/effect why they're in the ring together in the first place.

Just having random shit happen at random time might work for, say, a 4-year-old, but even Sesame Street develops narratives.

You can entertain kids and adults. Pixar films are enjoyed by all, for example.

Also the biggest issue remains Vince at the top stuck in his old ways.

The difference between NXT and the main roster makes that so obvious at this point, Vince is hands off in NXT and the storytelling is everything everyone wishes Raw was. That's why it's so weird to me when people say they don't watch NXT then have these complaints, like it's right there to watch and get what you want.

I've probably said this a million times. They keep it simple. They make the character's motivations clear. Even when they have a down episode, it's really not that bad and at least SOMETHING is accomplished. There are certainly people in NXT I'm not crazy about, but they've at least tried to make it work and put stories out there that make sense.

The main roster, on the other hand, is all over the place. Vince is constantly responding to bad ratings by putting tired old crap out there. Give us something new that'll keep us talking. With 5+ hours of TV it's insane that we barely know what the motivations of major characters are. The Shield guys have been there for 3 years and the Wyatts for 2. We shouldn't have major questions about them.

Yeah, the more I write about it the more convinced I am I gotta check out during the Sheamus reign. I'll keep Raw on the DVR just in case, but I can't see this being anything but brutal.

Especially if you pay the $2 extra for commercial free

It's 90 minutes long with no commercials.

but lately I'll do picture-in-picture with MNF. they haven't been giving me many reasons to switch away from football.

And has been for a while. If it ran on a regular cable channel it would probably thrash Raw in the ratings every single week.

I'm terrified that Vince will try to take it over from Regal and HHH.

As I type that, a side note that it's pretty dumb to have HHH essentially a babyface on NXT and a heel on Raw.

It's non realistic but I'm ok with that.

NXT pulls the curtain back and breaks the 4th wall so to speak a lot. Just like they will talk about the 4 horsewomen on NXT but on Raw pretend that Sasha and Charlotte hate each other.

I don't think Vince will take it over at any point, I think he just views it as unimportant and not mattering (a problem in its own right). By the time it was so huge that it could make as much as Raw you have to imagine he'd be retired anyway.

There are better eras like the Attitude Era but that was for older audiences.

We can always look back and remember great stories being told (especially because there were only a few big events each year), but there are countless times in the 80's and 90's where a face turn just happened simply by having a guy come out for no reason to save another face. Now he fights heels.

Or random heels and faces being teamed together for no other reason than them being faces and heels. For every slow build to HBK throwing Marty through the window there are dozens of random bad guy doing a good guy thing and us now cheering for him for no reason.

Yeah everyone was over, but that was more due to an overall fervor for pro wrestling as a whole. Rock, Austin, NWO, and DX pretty much drove this fervor and a lot of others reaped the benefits but a lot of the attitude era stuff aged horribly.

Hell, acts like Too Cool were MASSIVELY over and were fucking awful. That shit aged about the worst.

Val Venis was over like crazy, but why? There was nothing particularly creative in his character or the writing of his character. It played on tastes for more risque material and nothing more. Ditto the Godfather. They were over more as a reactionary product of the time than anything else because there was absolutely nothing special about them.

Granted there were other bright spots such as the Hardyz and Edge and Christian and Mick Foley, but there's a lot of things that are romanticized about the era as a whole. The Ministry was a particularly hokie faction, as was it's corporate hybrid.

Crucifying Austin was shock TV capitalizing on the Springer effect, but that shit didn't age well at all.

I didn't know Reigns even had a kid or Dean's dad was a bad guy (or whatever, I barely remember) until their feuds with Wyatt, and then when Bray brings that up it comes out of nowhere.

the undertaker-wyatt feud really annoys me as well. it's taker vs. the modern version taker. this feud has no right to not be incredible, but outside of a few moments is just a mess.

the could improve the product by...

- cutting back RAW to two hours. i think this is USA network's call, not the company's though. maybe when both parties start to concede that ratings are at an 18-year low, they'll make an adjustment. less is more.

- bringing back "enhancement talent"/jobbers in moderation to work with the main roster. why would i care about a PPV when wwe creative just fed me the same two guys a couple weeks earlier? oh, yay, it's ziggler and seamus for the hundredth time. oh, yay, what a limp-dick blowoff to a feud.

- letting heels cheat. why no more grabbing the trunks for the pinfall? why no more doing malicious shit behind the ref's back? vince has all but forgotten how to get real heat on a heel. either that, or he's so overly-concerned about being PG and setting a positive example for kids that he's put the clamps on it (jim ross said it's the latter).

- stop the ADHD/shaky camera angles. do they really need to quick zoom in and out of every single kick and punch?

look, we know the kayfabe times are long gone, but they can't continue to operate a publicly-traded company like they are.

i stopped trying to convince myself that the product is good a long time ago.

>- letting heels cheat. why no more grabbing the trunks for the
>pinfall? why no more doing malicious shit behind the ref's
>back? vince has all but forgotten how to get real heat on a
>heel. either that, or he's so overly-concerned about being PG
>and setting a positive example for kids that he's put the
>clamps on it (jim ross said it's the latter).
>


i'm kind of amazed when i go back and watch old shit. heels were cheating all the time, crowds went ballistic, and it rarely got old. just little things get heels over in a big way. i was watching shawn michaels pull a dude's hair and then act all innocent when the ref called him out, only to go right back to it. does something like that affect the match in a meaningful way? not particularly. could shawn win without that? absolutely, and that's why it's fucking hilarious.

It's a thing nobody has

Roman Reigns is big and acts nice to faces and beats up heels so we cheer for him.

Rusev is mean to faces so we boo him. He no longer even has his Russia thing, he's just a heel for no real reason.

Literally 90% of the roster is good because they fight heels and bad because the fight faces.

Kevin Owens is kind of the only heel who really acts like an old school heel and no surprise he gets actual heat. My girlfriend HATES Kevin Owens. When he threw the flowers in that Japan match for the NXT title she was done with him and despises seeing him on screen. From such a simple activity.

Hogan did more back rakes than just about anyone, but he was the good guy so people cheered.


>Rusev is mean to faces so we boo him. He no longer even has
>his Russia thing, he's just a heel for no real reason.

yeah, everyone just straight up bullied Rusev. For a while he wasn't even saying much inflammatory shit and it was really weird.


>Kevin Owens is kind of the only heel who really acts like an
>old school heel and no surprise he gets actual heat. My
>girlfriend HATES Kevin Owens. When he threw the flowers in
>that Japan match for the NXT title she was done with him and
>despises seeing him on screen. From such a simple activity.

see? stuff like that and sasha taking the girl's hair bow is so rare that it really jumps out at you when it happens. I really think these guys and gals would come up with more stuff like this if you took the leash off them. wrestlers on the main roster are afraid to try anything new for fear of getting yelled at by vince. meanwhile, they're stuck with the same shitty characters in the same half-baked storylines. no wonder no one's grabbing the brass ring.

jake roberts' "do you trust me?" run is sooo underrated. granted, slapping a valet elizabeth would never fly in 2015.

>It's a thing nobody has
>
>Roman Reigns is big and acts nice to faces and beats up heels
>so we cheer for him.
>
>Rusev is mean to faces so we boo him. He no longer even has
>his Russia thing, he's just a heel for no real reason.

sadly, i'm different on both these guys. neither one gives me a reason to love or hate.

>Literally 90% of the roster is good because they fight heels
>and bad because the fight faces.

>Kevin Owens is kind of the only heel who really acts like an
>old school heel and no surprise he gets actual heat. My
>girlfriend HATES Kevin Owens. When he threw the flowers in
>that Japan match for the NXT title she was done with him and
>despises seeing him on screen. From such a simple activity.

>way. i was watching shawn michaels pull a dude's hair and then
>act all innocent when the ref called him out, only to go right
>back to it.

LOL ...exactly.

ironically vince on the stick was equally masterful in the subtleties of putting heat on someone.. "TURN AROUND! C'MON REF, GET IN THERE!"

now we're left with the cole-jbl-saxton sleeping pill

I really don't mind Cole for the most part, but why the main roster doesn't have a true heel announcer is beyond me. JBL's "sometimes I like the good guys" schtick makes no sense whatsoever. Corey Graves excels at throwing subtle jabs, being obviously hypocritical, and calling out his fellow announcers for being hypocritical whether they are or not. Again, these are all the basics, but he's nailing them. Even Saxton is fun when Corey is around.

I've been really impressed. I cottoned onto NXT just as he was sidelined, but he's honestly one of the most promising commentary talents I've seen in ages. Reminds me of Jesse Ventura with his heel-leaning but impossible-to-deny logic.

Saxton is Michael Cole level or lower... no wit whatsoever. The Black Todd Pettengill.

good when it is good. Outside of that, wrestling is just 'movez' and star ratings, which is basically impossible to maintain with a fanbase across a whole card or even at the top of the card without getting everyone hella hurt. I'm with old man Ross on that one...

Think:
- Savage sneak-attacking Steamboat with the bell.
- Ric Flair period (the fact that he was a hoss in the ring just put it over the top when he had someone who could go with him).
- Flair in WWF claiming to have hollered at Liz at some point to piss off Liz-crazy ass Randy Savage. The pics by the pool with the skrawberries! And the embroidered towels!

http://41.media.tumblr.com/c0c2f98cc8e790dca8de8190ae592dc3/tumblr_nt6a39f6f81rg89a6o1_1280.jpg


- Vince trying to 'hold down' Stone Cold.
- Truly heelish Eddie G.
- Corporate Rock.
- Early nWo Hulk Hogan saying 'to hell with your fanhood..you can act like you hate me now, but I'm the reason you ever watched wrestling' and being a chickenshit heel in matches. The way he laid the hell down for Goldberg might still be his best in-ring thing ever even if it all got effed up after.
- 'You have a point but you've gone too far with it'/crybaby/sore loser/Super Canadian Bret Hart.

If there's no solidly bad guys who do bad things in most situations and are tough to beat, why in the hell do we need to see the good guy prevail?

AKA there HAS to be a story or some 'emotional investment'. You're better off having someone to root for and against. And the wrestlers have easier gigs in that situation too.

Instead, older cats like most of us watch shows basically 'knowing' who is going to win and either rolling with it because the guy usually has good matches or hating it because a cat like Cena goes over in 'obvious'/'lazy' ways that 'bury' the heel opponent by making it clear that Cena is just better.

But don't swerve us just swerve us cuz we don't want that either!

It has to be tough for them to book stuff for older folks. You have to keep things going in logical ways. They're clearly trying to wink at us with NXT like 'Look over here! We think we kinda know what you want! Indy/Japan dudes! Matches! Movez! Corny jokes! Stories! Long builds! Likable faces and dastardly heels! But we can't give it to you on the big shows and still keep our casuals and the kids. SOOOOO...here's more Cena kinda being a scumbag as a character and winning via get up outta the blue and doing specials because neon wristbands be sellin and real Cena is good cat who works hella hard'.

I can damn near cry watching Zayn, the NXT girls, and those folks wrestle in big matches. I mean really...I'm not ashamed to say it..I would've straight up cried with tears if Bayley would've lost that big title match to Sasha. And they made it look like she totally could've lost cuz Sasha was throwing it all at her. They did that thing RIGHT and I was all the way in on wanting her to win that match. She's good! And it took her a long time to get to that point! BUT Sasha is good too! And she's had to become a bad person to get to the top. I get it, but I wanted her to lose to a good person who was trying to do it the 'right way'! SIMPLE! I could mark out to the whole story, buy into the match, and be invested in seeing the good person win over the bad person.

Meanwhile, I can just straight up not GAF about Reigns getting jobbed at Survivor Series by a heatless MITB-holding Sheamus and HHH doing the 1998 Vince without the shock value or the 'newness' of having a shady authority figure. I couldn't buy in. I can't believe that Reigns is just gonna not end up champ at some point because the folks in charge want him to be champ even though the folks in charge are the 'shady folks in charge' who don't want him to win. But they keep giving him reasonably straight-forward ways to win the title! I can't buy it!

Remember when Vince got fed up and showed up 'ready' to wrestle Stone Cold with that black beater on? He looked pissed enough to do it. Of course we all knew he was gonna get beat the hell up but still try to cheat his way up on a win. AND IT WAS AWESOME. Because it was heeling done right!

When HHH wrestles to 'put a stop to' some face, we all just tend to hope he doesn't win via being booked to look better than the other dude. That doesn't work.

Jimaveli

>
>>- letting heels cheat. why no more grabbing the trunks for
>the
>>pinfall? why no more doing malicious shit behind the ref's
>>back? vince has all but forgotten how to get real heat on a
>>heel. either that, or he's so overly-concerned about being
>PG
>>and setting a positive example for kids that he's put the
>>clamps on it (jim ross said it's the latter).
>>
>
>
>i'm kind of amazed when i go back and watch old shit. heels
>were cheating all the time, crowds went ballistic, and it
>rarely got old. just little things get heels over in a big
>way. i was watching shawn michaels pull a dude's hair and then
>act all innocent when the ref called him out, only to go right
>back to it. does something like that affect the match in a
>meaningful way? not particularly. could shawn win without
>that? absolutely, and that's why it's fucking hilarious.

and lol@ this:

But they keep giving him
>reasonably straight-forward ways to win the title! I can't buy
>it!

it really is that simple. i mean he DECIDES to go through a whole tournament and HHH just lets him do it. how the fuck do you STILL get screwed over when they weren't even trying to? all you gotta do is win the tourney and be on the lookout for sheamus.... YOU HAD ONE JOB ROMAN!!!

>i don't actually care about him staying in the
>ring or trying to earn his way up, i'm mostly just having some
>fun with those,

well that's good lol.

but the character is written REALLY dumb. his
>motivations are really fuzzy and something about family and
>brothers and punching people in the mouth and blah blah blah.

Honestly when you look back that's par for the course. Outside of specific feuds the motivation for most wrestlers is pretty vague and general.

>they've tried to fix everything they did wrong before last
>year's rumble, but they've only gone halfway. this latest
>tournament does not make him a sympathetic figure, and that
>was the whole point.

I really don't see why. Dude has improved and dude has worked his ass off. I think people are asking for a little too much. In fact, I'll argue there's nothing he can do to win over the people who hate him.

Here's what I know: the shows I've gone to always have these obnoxious ass smarks who boo everyone they're "supposed" to like and cheer everyone they're not. I'd argue these make up the bulk of those booing him and enough people are following that lead that it's going to be difficult to turn that tide enough to prevent the "Cena" effect. I'd bet money that there's NO booking that can fix this.

>>Triple H has done nothing to warrant a spear?

>not recently, no. he offered reigns a deal to shoot straight
>to the top, just like he had earned. reigns decided not to...
>fine. had HHH gone out of his way to try to screw him during
>the tourney, THEN he deserves a spear. but he didn't. he let
>the tournament play out, watched reigns earn it, then came out
>for the handshake. even if you don't trust his intentions, BE
>ON THE LOOKOUT FOR SHEAMUS.

Nah. Come on. Hunter has been the proverbial devil in Reigns ear for the duration of this tournament. There's every reason to suspect he's up to something. Not to mention Hunter recruited Rollins away from the Shield.

That, of course, brings me to the criticism about the way he's written. The writing is awful across the board, so why the particular emphasis on him there? There's pretty much NOTHING well written in WWE (not including NXT), so the writing for Reigns shouldn't be all that big a deal in that context.

To that end, they should have realistically written more of that history into this story. I can't think of a single element of this show that is remotely well written.... aside, that is, from the relationship between Dean and Reigns, which is why I vote against a turn until they've built enough equity long term that the shock will actually be an event.

>OF COURSE the plan would be HHH serves as the distraction
>while sheamus cashes in.

Well yeah. So why NOT take out HHH if the plan is that obvious? I think this portion is overblown in context of wrestling history, particularly with the money in the bank cash ins. Everyone gets got with that, not counting Super Cena surviving an incredible beating at the hands of Sandow (remember him?).

Plus, there was no music on this one. Typically a MITB cash in involves music hitting for the guy with the briefcase. At least with this they created a distraction and had him come from nowhere.

So Reigns has two matches in one night, wins his first title after beating his best friend, the little devil in his ear- the one who drove a wedge in The Shield, no less- comes out to "congratulate" him and most likely has ulterior motives, Reigns takes him out, and then Sheamus rolls up from nowhere mid distraction to take him out?

Damn. That's a long ass night. That's an awful lot. If you're not, at a minimum, understanding of such a mental lapse under those circumstances, I can't see how you're anything but biased. Frankly that's harsh criticism for Reigns that borders on unfair IMO.

>That, of course, brings me to the criticism about the way he's
>written. The writing is awful across the board, so why the
>particular emphasis on him there? There's pretty much NOTHING
>well written in WWE (not including NXT), so the writing for
>Reigns shouldn't be all that big a deal in that context.

I like Cena the guy, I hate Cena the character. he was the symbol for the bad writing of the PG era. it's nothing personal.

>
>Honestly when you look back that's par for the course. Outside
>of specific feuds the motivation for most wrestlers is pretty
>vague and general.

why are we JUST hearing about his daughter once bray wyatt brings it up? my first thought should be "oh shit, Bray's bringing his fam into this?!" not "oh... Roman has a family?" that's the type of lazy shit that didn't used to happen as much.

>
>I really don't see why. Dude has improved and dude has worked
>his ass off. I think people are asking for a little too much.
>In fact, I'll argue there's nothing he can do to win over the
>people who hate him.

yeah, he has. the writing hasn't. and if his mic skills are still this bad (i'd argue they're getting worse) they need to find a way around that that makes sense. they haven't even tried.

>
>Here's what I know: the shows I've gone to always have these
>obnoxious ass smarks who boo everyone they're "supposed" to
>like and cheer everyone they're not. I'd argue these make up
>the bulk of those booing him and enough people are following
>that lead that it's going to be difficult to turn that tide
>enough to prevent the "Cena" effect. I'd bet money that
>there's NO booking that can fix this.

disagree. he was a more natural heel and everyone loved him then. him as a face straight up doesn't work, at least not in it's current incarnation. and i don't think it's that every face is booed. it's only if they're shoved down their throats. you can argue IWC fans get nitpicky and i somewhat agree, but you can't argue that the company is making a good attempt at storytelling. they simply aren't. it's a mess. they've sold reigns as this supposed underdog when he looks nothing like the part. time for something new.


>
>Nah. Come on. Hunter has been the proverbial devil in Reigns
>ear for the duration of this tournament. There's every reason
>to suspect he's up to something. Not to mention Hunter
>recruited Rollins away from the Shield.

sure, he's right to suspect something's amiss, but in the kayfabe world a face is generally not supposed to attack a guy who didn't attack him first. yeah, HHH made it clear he didn't want him winning, but did he physically do anything to impede the process? no. go ahead and don't shake his hand, look around for sheamus, a spear makes no sense there... as is evidenced by the fact that he DISTRACTED HIMSELF by doing it. see? stupid. a face should be beat down by overwhelming odds or his honest ways didn't get the job done against a cheat. He shouldn't be beat by his own stupidity.

i mean seriously, why is the face the aggressor? that's not just roman btw, they keep having faces bully dudes like rusev. cena gives another AA to rollins before his sting match... why? what if he's just going to take a breather? there's no rule that says rollins has to stay in the ring in between.

>
>Well yeah. So why NOT take out HHH if the plan is that
>obvious?

Aitch comes out all alone in a full suit and tie and offers a handshake. Tell me, are you more afraid of Aitch attacking you or someone sneaking up behind you? It's the latter, of course, and Roman the character should know that from having been on the roster during the entire Authority era. Show or Kane or J&J or somebody is probably around the corner. That's what always happens.Just leave the ring without shaking his hand. Doesn't that send the same message AND prepare you better for a surprise attack?

http://www.pwtorch.com/site/2015/11/24/1123-raw-tv-ratings-are-in-audience-rejects-post-ppv-show/

lolWWElol

https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/3u45is/wwe_confirms_long_lost_punkrollins_vs_cesaroohno/

rips the current style of working and writing. And he's totally right.

I feel like Vince may not respect his writers and staff, but he respects Austin and Foley and these wrestlers who are publicly bashing the company. I wonder if this will get his ear.

>I feel like Vince may not respect his writers and staff, but
>he respects Austin and Foley and these wrestlers who are
>publicly bashing the company. I wonder if this will get his
>ear.

They have to really understand 'why' something works when it works to understand why it doesn't when it doesn't. I deal with that at my gig all the time. People want the good stuff from before to happen without doing the hard work or the framework that went into making the good stuff possible. I think this is Vince's/WWE's biggest issue.

It is NOT a case of them all being clueless. I'm pretty sure HHH and Regal know enough to know that the product is lacking. NXT is proof that they can do wrestling 'right' per old folk standards.

It is possible that WWE has spread themselves too thin. NXT is good. The network as a whole is good. They are obviously recruiting 'good wrestlers who can work'. But it all falls apart on the main shows because they have yet to truly change the template to match the current situation. Saying 'go to twitta and talk about us' <> having a show that is worth talking about. Having 15-30 minutes of event-less talking to start most shows in 2015 when folks have entirely too many options is a joke.

They could also probably use a little well-done title hotshot era to TRY to make a few folks hotter. I'm not saying every week, but let's say 5 or 6 dudes get to be champ during a year for different amounts of time. As it stands, it is reasonably obvious that almost no one can be the main champ. That takes suspense out of almost all title matches. That has to be fixed. Even 80s Flair would throw in a 'lose to Ronnie Garvin' every now and then. Even 90s nWo Hogan would get beat every now and again. Now, if Cena or Brock have a belt they basically have to get shot and/or outrageously cheated to lose most of the time.

Maybe they'll care more about Austin but he's never afraid to be critical anyways, so who knows?

I don't completely agree with them but I can't really argue with them either.

whom i'd rather listen to than dave meltzer.

was a good listen on the long thanksgiving drive.

they particularly nailed it when they broke down the sasha banks vs. becky lynch match on RAW and the glaring mistake by wwe brass in failing to tell a story:

(paraphrasing)

banks used outside interference and pulled the tights for the pinfall. she blatantly CHEATED to get the win. michael cole didn't call it out --- either he missed it or is being instructed not to --- therefore it put no real heat on banks.

and instead of later on having becky lynch sell being pissed off about the way in which she lost, they had her fucking around backstage with the new day doing a youtube vid.


the "wrestlers letting the crowd work them instead of them working the crowd" now was pretty damning too. 50/50 club.

hot garbage. On Smackdown (don't judge me, football has sucked all day), Stroman ans Roman against the Dudleys...lost by DQ when Harper gets involved. These monsters can't win any match clean?? they should be marching through teams, but they look like the Dungeon of Doom out there...so weak. I realize that they are heels and they cheat, but damn, can they beat someone without some BS?

I'm kind of a heel guy, but I like my heels a certain way...little guys cheat to win, monsters smash. They shouldn't be losing to teams in their 40's IMO.

That's the state of Raw right now, I viewed it as having to sit through 4 hours of WWE and maybe being into 20 minutes total.

I'm going to Mania and I know that will be fun, but like I didn't even take free Raw tickets and I used to get so hyped for any show to come to town....says a lot.

You can hear crickets chirp by hour 3. So many commercial breaks and lame videos shown throughout the night. It's awful, you didn't miss anything.

I'll stick to major things. I like travelling for Mania b/c that is always a fun trip even for a bad Mania. When the Rumble or something similar is in town I go, but weekly TV shows and me are done as far as attending live.

I guess most things watching on TV has become better than the live experience so this shouldn't be that surprising.

>That's the state of Raw right now, I viewed it as having to
>sit through 4 hours of WWE and maybe being into 20 minutes
>total.
>
>I'm going to Mania and I know that will be fun, but like I
>didn't even take free Raw tickets and I used to get so hyped
>for any show to come to town....says a lot.

Yeah...at this point, if it's not nxt or a ppv, I ain't interested in seeing a wwe show live. It always tends to turn out okay because it's even more 'physically impressive' in person. But still..the roster is basically cut down with injuries and inactivity (looks at Brock) and the writing is all but ruining errbody who is on the show.

Del Rio's finisher is the worst thing going.

Jimavel

>
>Del Rio's finisher is the worst thing going.
>

>
>>
>>Del Rio's finisher is the worst thing going.
>>
>
>

It's cheesy but at least it's a strike that folks can eat to make look okay if they choose to. He can also spam it and get two or three. I get that folks hate the guy and won't let it go like them cats with the sheets and the flag still hate jiggas. But cmon now, that stomp? Dude is holding a title and he's a part of the super duper foreign heel force.

Watching folks have to lamely get themselves into position for that that turnbuckle stomp is a mess. Goldy deserves better.

it should have been New Jack

Dreamer is cool, ECW is cool, but *Shrug*

Stop rolling out people I cheered for 20 years ago as the only way to get me excited. In the end it's not a long term move and isn't even all that great of a short one.

the only reason I'm watching is because Ravens /Browns is the other viable option

and why bring him in for a 30 second "no contest"

>the only reason I'm watching is because Ravens /Browns is the
>other viable option
>

I'm gonna catch up on Breaking Ground instead. I see no reason to keep doing this to myself.

with the trash can of weapons. IMO, Raven would do well with the Wyatts

was time better spent.

VERY BAD

Without question, my highlight was Team B.A.D. gracing us with their presence, so...yeah.

Bad.

I'm thinking Sheamus will retain at TLC and subsequently lose the belt at the Rumble to.... Lesnar.

Guess who wins the Rumble?

Yup, I'm predicting Reigns vs Brock 2 with Reigns going over. Unless the people react just as badly as they did last time.

Desires.

This prediction will unfortunately come true.

- Taker/Cena
- Reigns/Lesnar
- Triple H/ who cares
- Jericho/Ambrose
- Sheamus/Daniel Bryan

A great match they should make but aren't smart enough to know they should make is New Day vs Wyatts. (come on, Big E vs Stroman?)

Not a bad card on paper, but predictable. And, assuming that's probably the best card they can make, is that going to sell out 100,000 seats?
I know they hate Daniel Bryan, but he'd certainly help so that's why I included him - they're going to need all the help they can get given the size of that building and the lukewarm feeling hovering above the company right now. I could see them bringing in types like Rey Mysterio and RVD too, along with a presumably returning Chris Jericho (zzz).

Reigns vs Cena - returning Cena wins the Rumble, Reigns wins the title at the Rumble
Taker vs Kane - retirement match for them both
KO vs Lesnar- probably won't happen but wouldn't this be a dream match? Lesnar vs Lesnar light


I'd LOVE to see Taker win the rumble, win the belt at Mania and then retire as champ, but I don't think they'll want another vacant belt so soon.

I just hope it's not for the title.

Double points if the stipulation is if HHH loses The Authority is gone, and then if Roman loses he's not allowed a WWE Title shot ever again or something. Reigns goes over, Authority is gone (for realz this time, not gone for a month a la Survivor Series 2014).

I really have no idea where they are going with the title, but I'd guess Cena is going to be involved somehow since they literally have no healthy main event guys besides him and Lesnar.

They are trying to put 100K people into Cowboy Stadium, they are trying to sell tickets with marquee matches rather than doing shit that betters themselves for the future. So I expect Taker, Sting, HHH, etc to all be on the card in some fashion.

10000-1 odds for the CM Punk's leaving was a work and is coming back at the Rumble to challenge Triple H at WM or something scenario.

He is basically already repeating that storyline

Billing him as an underdog who can't win the big one for some reason

Authority hates him

Wins the title but Authority helps someone cash in to take the title

Can you imagine if at Mania he had to fight HHH and if he wins that he gets a title shot that night

I'll vomit

but really it's just treading water. And Reigns as underdog doesn't make all that much sense, at least as currently constructed.

And it was annoying because he had only ever had 1 title shot.

and i guess they're counting the MITB match as an "opportunity" which makes some sense, but yeah, the underdog role doesn't really work here. especially where the authority hasn't really been having people intervene recently (obviously it looks like that'll change with the league of nations in action).

Went back 2 years and he had never actually been pinned without some interference or shady stuff going down.

Aren't these supposed to be the guys and gals who are still figuring out their characters? The backstage stuff just comes across so much more crisp and fun than the main roster's. There are so many main roster wrestlers who I couldn't tell you what their character REALLY is if my life depended on it. Even ones who have been around for years. NXT, on the other hand, makes every character clear.

If it's not "doing what's best for business" or "taking out the authority" nobody has any motivation whatsoever.

That, and every WWE promo is basically just the person recapping what happened the last few weeks of whatever "storyline" they are part of.

sensibilities that are somehow spliced with the sensibilities of an 8 year old boy pulling their puppet strings at every turn.

Yeah I think that about sums it up.

raw after mania they just need to do a hard reset on their whole creative direction. dead the authority first of all.

May as well trot out Los Boriquas, D.O.A, N.O.D, and the Truth Comission while they're at it.

Can't be mad at that brawl at the end either.

nevermind, he's just there to distract

they said the holdup is all about the concussion shit. SO WHAT THE FUCK IS THE DEAL. get every 40+ nigga on this shit off my TV.

except R-Truth. he can stay. i have always loved his intro.

man you'd think this shit is nuclear physics and not wrestling the way they struggle with it.

http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/650785-triple-h-addresses-fan-frustration-with-the-current-wwe-product-explains-why-talents-like-finn-balor-are-not-on-the-main-roster-more

On fan frustration with the current WWE TV product:

“We just have to become more disciplined and more Creative with how we do things, and how we operate the shows. We’ve had some unfortunate situations with injuries and everything else. It’s on us to be more creative and come up with a better format; a better show. We hear people’s frustrations and in a lot of ways feel the same way. It’s fixing it. And, trying to fix it. It is what it is. How we fix it, we’re not 100 percent sure yet. But, we will get there. Trust me.”

WZ Daily host Nick Hausman asked Hunter why talents like Finn Balor have yet to be called up to the main WWE roster, and Triple H responded with the following:

“The thing that I hate doing is, ‘Well, there’s a lot of injuries right now, so we’re going to pull this guy up,’ but then the injured guys will come back and then we’re not sure what we’ll do – now we have too many guys for the space.

I hate taking a guy as talented as Finn Balor and saying, ‘You’re the band-aid to hold us over until all these other guys come back and then we’ll see from there.’ If we don’t have that gameplan for when we call these guys up, especially for a Finn Balor, then it’s not the right time. You need to have something in your mind, and hopefully a long-term plan in place that gets them to where you want them to be. At least that would be the goal for me when guys come up.”

NXT's popularity proves that people like wrestling matches, women can be a much bigger draw than WWE ever gave credit for, and that fans are excited for new talent.

When Hunter actively prepares one show (NXT) that highlights these points and then another show (RAW) that contradicts them all, his confusion and uncertainty don't really make sense.

I appreciate there's a lot of flaws in the above logic in that there are way more millions of people watching RAW than NXT so it shouldn't specifically be their blueprint.

WWE were such huge proponents for social media - they saw it as a hugely valuable tool to get their message out but wanted to use it as a megaphone instead of a 2-way line. They never saw the value in listening to what people actually thought.

>
>WWE were such huge proponents for social media - they saw it
>as a hugely valuable tool to get their message out but wanted
>to use it as a megaphone instead of a 2-way line. They never
>saw the value in listening to what people actually thought.

They push social media SO hard but the only time they want to hear from us on it is when we can pick between No-DQ, No Holds Barred, or No rules as the stipulation for tonight's main event.

I can't think of what goes into writing that many hours of storylines every week or what goes in to the decision-making process of which wrestler to push etc, but to me, half the job is done for them when stadiums of people are screaming for one person's name throughout an entire PPV (Daniel Bryan) and they're not even there.

Zach Ryder is the one guy who truly went out there and grabbed "the brass ring" and he's currently trying to get a tag team off the ground in NXT. That's weird to me.

...and do you guys think he's possibly implying that he knows how to run a show now and Vince doesn't anymore?

I mean the proof is right there in the pudding.

The problem is, outside of coming up with Hulkamania/WrestleMania, nothing that was 100% his (or his idea) has been successful. Let's discuss the following wrestler's Vince tried to build as "the guy" but ultimately failed:

* Diesel. Never caught on and eventually Vince had to drop the title back to Bret
* Luger. LOL, need we go into this? Again, Vince had to let Bret run with it
* Lashley. Had him become the "face" of the ECW brand when the entire WWE universe and the crowd at the December to Dismember PPV wanted Punk. This resulted in Heyman quitting the company and several other wrestlers asking for their release.
* Reigns

To fill in the gaps with the stars who Vince would like you to think were his creation:
* Stone Cold was mix of Austin finding the character and the crowd organically getting behind him. Not Vince's create
* Same goes for The Rock
* Cena? That was Stephanie urging him to take his freestyle rapping backstage and turn it into a character. When did Cena become stale and hated for the wrong reasons? When Vince turned him into Super Cena.

Anybody who organically gets over, without Vince's permission or in spite of Vince's other pet projects, they get cooled off one way or another (jobbed out, put into meaningless fueds or taken off TV entirely) while he continues to try and push his latest musclely monster. He'd rather have his idea fail than somebody else's make him tons of fucking money.

He totally deserves the credit for turning the WWF/E into a worldwide power, he made those moves.

But yea as an idea man he hit a goldmine in Hulk Hogan, the right time and the perfect mix of muscle monster combined with charisma.

Like you said all the other huge success stories have come straight from the wrestlers own talent getting them over. There was certainly good booking and writing going on that kept stories and characters compelling - a major missing piece now.

As much as Vince likes to avoid listening to the audience now, he used to do it and that's the huge difference. His creativity and ideas were never that needed when he was willing to let people naturally rise to the top.

he's offered creative advice to stamford on three separate occasions, and that they've repeatedly told him, "no thanks."

helmsley might want the vets to think he's inherently "one of the boys" still, but he, along with the company's c-level/senior level reporting up to vince, seems to be hugely insular to any creative ideas not conceived internally.


>When Hunter actively prepares one show (NXT) that highlights
>these points and then another show (RAW) that contradicts them
>all, his confusion and uncertainty don't really make sense.

He's just painted in a corner for the foreseeable future

The major view of his career will be how he buried a ton of wrestlers, but I think people forget that he really was great.

Whether a face or a heel he absolutely understood what to do and say to get the maximum reaction from any crowd. He had the ability to carry long matches and make plenty of wrestlers look better than they were.

I also don't know how much of the HHH burying everyone stories really are all about him or if knowing what we know about Vince now he saw HHH as that guy and never wanted to let him lose- though being married to his daughter certainly influenced that in some way.

It's also worth mentioning that in an era when everyone was trying to spin their star power into something more, he was 100% about the business and nothing else.

Basically I think HHH loves the business more than any star of the past 20 or 30 years and despite all the knocks on him always got it.

>Whether a face or a heel he absolutely understood what to do
>and say to get the maximum reaction from any crowd. He had the
>ability to carry long matches and make plenty of wrestlers
>look better than they were.

the best credit you can give him is that he was a solid foil for the true GOATs. and i will agree that he does love the business, but he doesn't have any other choice but to. that boy aint have the juice to do it. wasn't nobody trying to see HHH on SNL or in a movie

niggas used to dread them 20 minute meandering promos at the start of Raw. "i am the gaaaaaaaaame uhhh" fuck off HHH.

niggas know he was catching a lot of unjustified Ws and title reigns just because of who he was porking. his shit is just flaw all around man.

he will never be on the GOAT tier or even second tier. 3rd tier is where he resides. and that's a FINE career for him. and he/they cannot revise that no matter how much they try.

>the best credit you can give him is that he was a solid foil
>for the true GOATs. and i will agree that he does love the
>business, but he doesn't have any other choice but to. that
>boy aint have the juice to do it. wasn't nobody trying to see
>HHH on SNL or in a movie
>
>niggas used to dread them 20 minute meandering promos at the
>start of Raw. "i am the gaaaaaaaaame uhhh" fuck off HHH.
>
>niggas know he was catching a lot of unjustified Ws and title
>reigns just because of who he was porking. his shit is just
>flaw all around man.
>
>he will never be on the GOAT tier or even second tier. 3rd
>tier is where he resides. and that's a FINE career for him.
>and he/they cannot revise that no matter how much they try.

all of this. HHH's "greatness" is largely due to his own overexposure. like, it seemed like he was the only thing on after austin and rock bounced.

i can't remember a great HHH match (c) bret hart

He had great feuds but people view his greatest rival as The Rock who would call Austin his greatest rival.

WWE's inability to build more stars was an issue for sure, and he gets shit for holding guys like RVD and Booker down, but RVD was never good enough to be true top tier and Booker was good but also not top tier in my opinion.

Even Cena in his era of domination had Edge for a while and Orton (as boring as that got)

Imagine Austin with 0 Rock matches and it's a different world. He'd still be at the top tier, but having that rivalry really pushed both of them over the top. all of the GOATs also had a GOAT level rivalry. HHH never did.

When I look back at HHH and that era when he was on TV non stop I can't really think of a memorable rival that really mattered other than HBK well past his prime who was really just being used to elevate HHH.

But his style caught up to him big-time before him and HHH could really build a full 'thing' together. And beating the hell out of Mick didn't make Haitch special since Rock and Taker did it in more 'iconic' ways while Hunter tried to be decent about it and...you know...not kill the man.

I kinda buy HBK's take..HHH's greatness is based more on 'loving it enough to stay even with the BS stacking up' than any isolated greatness. He was put in some grand spots at times. But just like any other WWE main eventer, you got stuck with some toads who couldn't work too.

In a vacuum, he's pretty much the B+ player he describes on a regular with a reasonably solid health history, good size, and grand choice in the chick and 'staying off of the stuff' departments. No...not that stuff. He was probably on that a lot. I'm talking the rec drugs.

>He had great feuds but people view his greatest rival as The
>Rock who would call Austin his greatest rival.
>
>WWE's inability to build more stars was an issue for sure, and
>he gets shit for holding guys like RVD and Booker down, but
>RVD was never good enough to be true top tier and Booker was
>good but also not top tier in my opinion.
>
>Even Cena in his era of domination had Edge for a while and
>Orton (as boring as that got)
>
>Imagine Austin with 0 Rock matches and it's a different world.
>He'd still be at the top tier, but having that rivalry really
>pushed both of them over the top. all of the GOATs also had a
>GOAT level rivalry. HHH never did.
>
>When I look back at HHH and that era when he was on TV non
>stop I can't really think of a memorable rival that really
>mattered other than HBK well past his prime who was really
>just being used to elevate HHH.

His comments though about bringing Balor up from NXT to help tide things over isn't the problem - what about the currently under-used guys on the roster who are missing opportunities. Like I've said before, when arenas are screaming for Cesaro and Ziggler, then why aren't they given that?

it's so much you can do with that from a story perspective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOaZ2tbDhis

can't wait.

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOaZ2tbDhis

They have a list of things that WWE is bad at. They spend the whole time trying to nail that stuff. And they do with regularity.

And Prince Puma/Ricochet is THE shit.

You put one of your brightest stars on the pre show in her hometown.

THEN you have her and her stable sing an awful awful awful 12 days of Xmas parody that is in the top 10 worst things I've seen WWE do in terms of just all around awfulness.

THEN you go to commercial mid match ON THE NETWORK and advertise THE NETWORK!

I guess if we wanted them to treat the women more like the men we got it.

change it to the WOMENS championship, get some new writers, and assign them to just the womens division. Make it work. You have all the talent in the world. There's no excuse for this much garbage.

You can't expect them to care about this division when they treat the entire show and roster like garbage they don't care about.

That Kalisto move off of the ladder was next level.

>That Kalisto move off of the ladder was next level.

Most of the wrestling is on the money.

And even with the injuries, the roster has a gang of folks. I watched TNA a month ago during the 'point system-style' title tourney with brackets and they were making things work with like no one on the roster. They went with 'cut the crap and bring the wrestling, make it matter, and go from there'.

WWE is just screwing the pooch like nobody's business on the 'other' stuff. They can't figure out how to make folks or matches seem important. They do it in NXT, but that's mostly because they put the audience in a zone and manage to not ruin it 10x a show. The main show just had Cole hollering to try to make things seem important. And we're all done with Cole and have been FOREVER.

We get stuck wanting them to 'shock' us cuz the folks they are spotlighting aren't over.

Really all I can say about that. It was ugly.

I know Sheamus is a shade warmer than ice cold, but you know him and Super Uso are gonna beat each other down.

Jimaveli

>The last post was over 300 strong, so it's about time for a
>new one.
>
>A legend had left us, the Great Nick Bockwinel
>
>http://www.caulifloweralleyclub.org/rip-nick-bockwinkel/
>
>It is with a heavy heart the Cauliflower Alley Club announces
>that “The Greatest AWA World Champion of All Time” and
>former CAC President and WWE Hall Of Famer, Nicholas
>“Nick” Bockwinkel, passed away Saturday night at approx.
>8:40 pm due to health issues.
>
>We will have more on this later Sunday afternoon.
>
>**EDIT** A couple of promos
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nBVTkqzG58
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrHM4NgQz5Q
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxV77nAuAQ8

Credit to them both - they must be super human to take that kind of punishment.

Ulimate Uso? Super Uso? Ultra Uso?

HHH jumped into chairshots like Billy Gunn, Ziggla, HBK, and Benoit combined. And he didn't waste time trying to get heat back. He just ate move after move after move. It's just unfortunate that he's basically the top heel right now without even playing a straight ahead heel. That says much more about the how the other cats are booked than anything else.

BTW...where the hell was Barrett at the end?

Jimaveli

>The last post was over 300 strong, so it's about time for a
>new one.
>
>A legend had left us, the Great Nick Bockwinel
>
>http://www.caulifloweralleyclub.org/rip-nick-bockwinkel/
>
>It is with a heavy heart the Cauliflower Alley Club announces
>that “The Greatest AWA World Champion of All Time” and
>former CAC President and WWE Hall Of Famer, Nicholas
>“Nick” Bockwinkel, passed away Saturday night at approx.
>8:40 pm due to health issues.
>
>We will have more on this later Sunday afternoon.
>
>**EDIT** A couple of promos
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nBVTkqzG58
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrHM4NgQz5Q
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxV77nAuAQ8

Was the show any good

Can't remember the last time I saw a match as brutal as that. Some of those spots and chair shots were beyond vicious.

Reigns' breakdown at the end was insane. The last 10 minutes were amazing!!

In the end, not much progressed in any angles.

Roman is a bit more of a bad ass
Charlotte is confusingly being booked as a heel and a face
Ambrose gets another belt

But for the most parts all the feuds will continue and probably all of the winners will lose on Raw tonight.

There were good matches though, the tag match was fantastic. Swagger and Del Rio went hard in a match nobody cared about. Roman and Sheamus put on a good match.

Basically the wrestlers all worked really hard to make a not important show as good as possible

sounds like i didn't miss much by not having the wwe network for some months now.

I like the shows they have added like Breaking Ground and Ride Along.

I like to go back and watch old Raws from 98-2002 and if I can catch an occasional big show like the Rumble and Mania it's worth the $10 a month. I use it as much as things like Netflix and Hulu.

>I like the shows they have added like Breaking Ground and
>Ride Along.
>
>I like to go back and watch old Raws from 98-2002 and if I can
>catch an occasional big show like the Rumble and Mania it's
>worth the $10 a month. I use it as much as things like Netflix
>and Hulu.

yeah, i felt like i got what i needed from it after watching soooo many of the old PPV's from about '90-'93 and then the attitude era. so i unsubscribed.

if i remember correctly, they'd started to add a bunch of old RAW episodes after going so long with only a few from the attitude era. hell even the watching the old RAW's when they only broadcast from NYC with macho, heenan and vince on the stick is super entertaining.

i know everybody hasnt checked out lucha underground but they basically 50/50 booking when you look at the records (saw a breakdown on reddit).

the difference is they do it in streaks so you can destroy/rebuild a character effectively.

theres a lot of ways to effectively book but i just thought that was an interesting way to make 50/50 work.

>Was the show any good

The wrestling was really good for the most part. The hosses hossed. New Day Rox. The tag match was grand. Only the Wyatt thing was zone out bad..it just took them too long to get rid of those old ass dudes. They missed another shot to show the Wyatt crew off as something to be thought of as a 'real threat'. They are basically King Kong Bundy with much more talking.

Sheamus and Reigns need an Hbk greatest hits viewing so they can learn how to get more out of their holy shit spots. Until then, they're just gonna beat each other the hell up. My All Japan memories scare me on that stuff. Also, looking at a lot of how Indy darlings run out of gas after eating video game powerbombs, attempted murder drivers, and Brock-ish suplexes in front on 147 people makes me want the hosses to slow down a little and hbk it up some. Give me some 'ouch' faces and some 'whooo...I'm soooo hurt! And tired!' Selling in between table spots.

The key is the ending. They could be onto something if they take it to a good place. They're clearly going all out to get Super Uso 'there'. And what do you know...there's HHH showing a gang of ass again..getting beat the hell down to try to get something over.

But I LOVED the ending. Reigns's crazy eye look was perfect. The final spear to HHH on the outside was jaw-dropping. Refs and announcers were looking at Reigns like he was genuinely insane.

I'd give anything to be in attendance at RAW just to hear the reaction Reigns gets. Don't know where they're going with that but... wow!!

I don't want to just abandon all hope, but they're making it real difficult.

with Bo Dallas vs R-Truth?? SMH

I didn't watch, so I'm doing a box score opinion here, but we all knew he was winning the belt eventually right? And we all knew he was going to do it in a lame overcoming the odds story right?

So now he's done it, and to make it better he did it on Raw, something nobody actually thought would happen. Hell I didn't even stay up to watch it. Anything to shake Raw up a bit is good with me, when was the last legit world title change on raw anyway? Has to be years.

McMahon shows up out of nowhere, gives Reigns a title shot, threatens to fire him if he loses (like that was gonna happen) and he wins the belt. It was like VKM woke up monday morning, saw the PPV results, and said "screw this, you're killing my product...I'm taking over right now". I agree this was the eventual result, but the way it got there doesn't feel right IMO.

Vince probably realized the only way Reigns was getting over was the Stone Cold route of beating him up, so he pulled the trigger quick.

I think it also was the only way to guarantee it would work. Avoid a smarky PPV crowd and get Raw fans excited at a world title change that none of them ever thought would happen when showing up at the arena. Now you have your coronation with an excited crowd and all of the images you need for video packages in the future.

I'm not calling this the best move WWE has ever made, but they polished the turd they gave themselves as well as possible.

Like he knew he'd come out and schedule the match and basically if it seems Reigns was getting the huge face pop give him the win and if it still wasn't working don't give him the belt and then try the classic fired wrestler earning his way back storyline.

Is McMahon on the Stone Cold podcast saying these damn millennials need to grab the brass ring, yet if he put 1/10th of the effort into guys like Cesaro they'd be 10X more over than Roman is now. Like, congratulations, you FINALLY got a crowd to pop for Roman, but you could have already had this if you took a guy fans were telling you they already liked and ran with that.

at least that's what the wrestling observer raw report is saying.

i only watched the first 30 minutes on dvr, so i didn't see the main event. reigns did get a surprisingly big pop when he appeared for his promo. i think philly's a smark stronghold, so it was bizarre to hear.

if those were real boos for kevin owens, that kid is drawing heat like you're supposed to, mayne. i mean, dude did a run-in (more like walking) to the ring with NO THEME MUSIC, squashed the two babyfaces, and left.

So TLC was bookended with very decent bouts (shout out Kalisto and Jey for bump of the year), but the middle sucked pretty hard for me. Skipped a lot.

The REAL draw is tonight... got tickets in the bag, first time I've been to a live event since I was a kid. NXT was too good to miss at the moment... even the lady's kind of hyped.

Card:

NXT Championship Match:

-Finn Bálor (c) vs. Samoa Joe

NXT Women’s Championship Match:

-Bayley (c) vs. Nia Jax

NXT Tag Team Championship Match:

-Dash & Dawson (c) vs. Enzo Amore & Colin Cassady

-Apollo Crews vs. Baron Corbin

-Asuka vs. Emma

Thoughts/Predictions?

I think Balor wins (can't see him dropping the strap in the UK tbh... especially when the BBC ran a documentary this week on his time in Japan)

Bayley retains after a couple of failed attempts at the Bayley to Belly, finally slamming Nia Hulk/Andre style... or possible Nia DQ.

Enzo and Cass have to take the tag straps after their promo last week, right? I won't be mad if they don't (Dash and Dawson are exactly the sort of Brain Busters inspired tag heels WWE need), but I'm not sure where they'll go if not.

Crews goes over Corbin in a hossfest. Expecting some big hits.

Emma to run Asuka close, but Asuka to get the win... unless there's some Dana interference setting up the eventual handicap finale.

>So TLC was bookended with very decent bouts (shout out
>Kalisto and Jey for bump of the year), but the middle sucked
>pretty hard for me. Skipped a lot.
>

Watching Reigns for the wrestling is a rewarding thing. He's a big strong kid who is visibly 'athletic' and can do some fun stuff. He takes shots and gives them out. Aka solid hossery. His horrid booking and rough mic-work don't ruin that for me. Someone watched a Shield DVD and realized that the kid is at his best when he's intensely blowing stuff up.

>The REAL draw is tonight... got tickets in the bag, first time
>I've been to a live event since I was a kid. NXT was too good
>to miss at the moment... even the lady's kind of hyped.

Enjoy the show! My next scheduled live show is Mania in Dallas. I'd like to catch NXT at some point while it is still a great little thing that folks love.

Predictions? This is just another good NXT card. The wrestling is gonna be on too because NXT.

- Joe and Finn kill it. Demon Finn = SNK Boss status so it is auto-win if he breaks it out. But they'll make it close to make Joe look great. I was scurred for a minute, but Joe looks like he wants to be there right now.
- Bayley is my dog. I like her and Sami like the biggest marks like Daniel Bryan. IE: I care if she wins or not. Even this mini battle with Nia is gonna work on me. Bayley will sell the danger because she's lady Sami Zayn. Nia will benefit because she's big enough for folks to buy it. Everyone wins.
- Realest Guys all the way. They're both healthy. It is on.
- Apollo and Baron will be the sneaky good match aka the Tyler Breeze match of the show. Apollo ain't losing though. He's Super Mario with a star and no pits status right now. He's borderline P-Wing, but not quite. And yes, they're gonna give us some 'movez' and reversals.
- Asuka has been handled well. The mood changes and 'trust us, these strikes hurt/kill' build is good stuff for me. She's winning unless there's heavy shenanigans.

>
>Card:
>
>NXT Championship Match:
>
>-Finn Bálor (c) vs. Samoa Joe
>
>NXT Women’s Championship Match:
>
>-Bayley (c) vs. Nia Jax
>
>NXT Tag Team Championship Match:
>
>-Dash & Dawson (c) vs. Enzo Amore & Colin Cassady
>
>-Apollo Crews vs. Baron Corbin
>
>-Asuka vs. Emma
>
>Thoughts/Predictions?
>
>I think Balor wins (can't see him dropping the strap in the UK
>tbh... especially when the BBC ran a documentary this week on
>his time in Japan)
>
>Bayley retains after a couple of failed attempts at the Bayley
>to Belly, finally slamming Nia Hulk/Andre style... or possible
>Nia DQ.
>
>Enzo and Cass have to take the tag straps after their promo
>last week, right? I won't be mad if they don't (Dash and
>Dawson are exactly the sort of Brain Busters inspired tag
>heels WWE need), but I'm not sure where they'll go if not.
>
>Crews goes over Corbin in a hossfest. Expecting some big
>hits.
>
>Emma to run Asuka close, but Asuka to get the win... unless
>there's some Dana interference setting up the eventual
>handicap finale.

No shit this is wrestling, what were you expecting when you bought tickets to a wrestling show?

It's a reaction to the overemphasis of "sports entertainment".

The same as the "women's wrestling" chants being a reaction to the divas bullshit.

I get the point of those chants, but the message has been received. WWE is struggling with what to do with that message, but it's clear they know the issues. Plus, NXT is about as big as it could be while still being somewhat underground, so the "movement" towards real wrestlers is effectively over. WWE knows how big a deal this is. I mean I'll complain and play armchair booker with the rest of ya, but when you're actually going to the shows what's the point of these chants*? They're selling out arenas and going overseas. There's nothing else to prove.

*it's more that these chants are every 5 seconds. the chants themselves are pretty harmless, but if they all boil down to "Fuck Vince" then there's not much of a point to it anymore.

And I ride shotty with you and Oak on that front.

I do think there's a distinction from chant to chant though and if all we got was "this is wrestling" and "women's wrestling", they'd be great.

And frankly, I don't think WWE- ahem, Vince and that fucker Dumbfuck Duncecap Dunn- actually DO get the message.

I just don't think these two issues are mutually exclusive.

Most of the chants need to fucking GO. These idiots are making it difficult to really get into the match sometimes. I just think this particular chant, on its own merits, is worthwhile and has a few benefits attached. Taken a sea of the rest of the masturbatory garbage we get, yeah. I agree with you and Oak in that context.

Chants should be unique to the wrestlers in the match (this NXT crowd has some good ones, the Enzo Amore in the theme of "Seven Nation Army" and "Crews there it is!" were great), but for the love of god, do NOT chant for somebody NOT in the match.

I've seen too many THIS IS AWESOME chants in response to garden variety moments.

Oh, someone went through a table?

Meh.

Smarter fans- actual smart fans who have a reasonable understanding of how and why pro wrestling works, not guys that just keep up on behind the scenes gossip and regurgitate the opinions of the Mark Maddens of the world- would have the restraint it takes to make that an effective chant.

So, I suppose it should be retired if only because those fans are much further and fewer in between than the apes that currently chant that nonsense at every turn.

Agreed on the character centric chants, though I think this is usually a fail with heels.

NOBODY should be cheering Kevin Owens, especially his rabid fans. When I want to reward a good heel that I like, I boo him relentless and say every foul thing short of insulting his mama, because that's what they're working for. These idiots who cheer him are too busy trying to be "in the know" to realize they're cutting his balls off.

The Sheamus "you look stupid" nonsense is another masturbatory chant IMO.

And Sheamus is good enough to play off of it and retaliate against the audience.

>The Sheamus "you look stupid" nonsense is another masturbatory
>chant IMO.

Particularly with that move where he beats the dogshit out of his opponents chest on the ring apron.

As soon as the crowd gets into the chant he stops. I love that shit. I don't think he's flipped the you look stupid chant all that well but it hasn't been a disaster or anything.

Also I thought that was a dope look. It's got a warrior vibe.

At any rate he's one of the very best workers in the company IMO and they've fucked him up in ways I'm not sure they're creatively capable of salvaging in any meaningful way. As it stands he's my pick for Brock at Mania if they want a match that will have people buzzing years from now but that won't happen and if even if it did they'd make him yet another Kenny Wangler to Brock's Adibisi.

Particularly with that move where he beats the dogshit out of his opponents chest on the ring apron.

As soon as the crowd gets into the chant he stops. I love that shit. I don't think he's flipped the you look stupid chant all that well but it hasn't been a disaster or anything.

As an aside, Orton and Owens are masterful in that regard.

Also I thought that was a dope look. It's got a warrior vibe.

At any rate he's one of the very best workers in the company IMO and they've fucked him up in ways I'm not sure they're creatively capable of salvaging in any meaningful way. As it stands he's my pick for Brock at Mania if they want a match that will have people buzzing years from now but that won't happen and if even if it did they'd just fuck it up and make him yet another Kenny Wangler to Brock's Adibisi instead of giving us the MegaHoss fapfest it should and would be without interference.

I'm fine with chanting a lot if it arises naturally. A really live crowd can chant all the time and it adds to the show rather than detracting. I've been a part of those crowds and it's SO much fun. It just seems forced most of the time now, especially when it's a small crowd that knows it's being televised. Mostly it reinforces bad habits for more laid back shows.

Told this story before, but I was at an Evolve show recently. It was a small room that had a nice crowd that wasn't too rowdy. The problem is there were 3 dudes next to me who thought that every show needs to be like Full Sail. Only one of their chants took off (they were quite literally starting them every 5-10 seconds) and they couldn't get it through their heads that they were annoying everyone. They saw it as everyone else refusing to have fun.

The cheer all heels fans

They're usually the same guys so that's easy I guess lol.

I get the "anti-sports entertainment" and message to main roster stuff, but it's literally every show now. It was great and effective the first few times, especially during those Banks/Bayley matches as the Divas division is what was really a joke, in-ring wrestling wise, in the WWE.

The wrestling isn't a problem on the main roster. The matches are great from a flippy shit, technical wrestling, and big spot standpoint. The issue is a 5 star match is not entertaining if there isn't a story behind it or if you don't give a shit about either of the guys in the ring or if it really means nothing who wins and loses.

At this point the "THIS IS WRESTLING" chant is just another example of the crowd trying to takover the show and get themselves over.

NXT as a whole is presented in such a way that the chant can easily be applied to the brand itself.

The chant isn't really "THIS IS WRESTLING!"

It's

"THIS is wrestling!

People love the attitude era but if you rewatch Raws from 97 til the Radicalz showed up, the wrestling was complete shit 90% of the time. It was a great product because of the storytelling.

The chant works because it's true across the board.

It's the presentation of the entire promotion.

As in, THIS. THIS is wrestling. This is WRESTLING.

As in... .this is how professional wrestling is supposed to be.

You don't see them chanting THIS IS AWESOME during a squash match on the weekly show or when Regal is cutting a promo from his office.

I think the undercurrent of the overall state of affairs in WWE and the rise of NXT as the definitive counter culture response to WWE's excesses and bad habits is what fuels that chant to begin with.

It's derived from guys like CM Punk coming out and emphasizing the fact that he was a great professional wrestler, which, conversely, was just another way of saying "I'm great at all the things that make this thing of ours great and this sports entertainer superstar shit can kick rocks".

Sure, it might come during matches where the action is good, but that's a very simplistic take that doesn't really factor in the groundswell of desire for a change from this bloated "entertainment" bullshit Vince keeps shoveling.

Saying it's nothing more than a response to good in ring action is overly simplistic and basic and ignores the greater overall message that THIS- NXT- is wrestling done the way many long time fans think it should be done.

You won't agree and that's all good :)

cornball mark shit.

He’s rounding into someone with the potential to be a legitimate upper card player with this trajectory. I’ve always liked him but I get a little more bullish on his prospects week after week.

The little stuff like yelling "You should have stayed home" are exactly what his persona needed. He's now ACTIVELY not giving a fuck rather than passively not giving a fuck.

He bores me and I feel like all of his heat is the wrong kind of heat.

He reminds me of just so many other big guys that they want to be stars but don't have it.

There's no need to be a smark, heels generate boos and faces are likable,most with some kind of vulnerability. It's to the point where I don't a scenario where I could EVER cheer for Corbin or boo for Bayley.

The show was brilliant live - crowd was absolutely insane, but always engaged with the action and on the right side.

One of the biggest things wrong with the main product is that they don't make you want to support the faces or hate the heels enough... half of the time the big face will be getting booed and the big heel will be getting ironic cheers... it completely blows the TV product out of the water.

With NXT it's just obvious who you want to win and the crowd don't feel the need to be "alternative" as a protest. A great example in this show was Bayley Vs Nia. Bayley is as simple a babyface as you'll get anywhere... she's just a nice girl who's dreamed of this her whole life and has fought against the odds to make it "the right way". Nia is bigger, stronger, meaner and doesn't give a fuck about Bayley's childhood dreams. Everybody in that building cheered for Bayley because she connects and they booed Nia because SHE connects. My girl went in wanting to cheer for Nia, but came out screaming for Bayley because of the story they told. THAT is wrestling. (and it deserved the chants)

>There's no need to be a smark, heels generate boos and faces
>are likable,most with some kind of vulnerability. It's to the
>point where I don't a scenario where I could EVER cheer for
>Corbin or boo for Bayley.

Font 80 cosign. NXT allows you to fall for the trick that makes wrestling 'work'. Ross is right about the whole 'you need to be rooting for one side and against the other for the work to work' thing. Black hat. White hat. Make it simple.

When Bayley is in danger, I'm legit thinking 'she might lose here...that would suck cuz she's so awesome'. It's Sami Zayn all over again.

That's why YesGoat worked out so well to me. He was booked as an actual good guy who just wanted a fair shot. His flaw? He's little as hell and goofy-looking so the suits wouldn't want him as the champ/face of the company. But hey..if he knees your champ in the face or catches him slipping and twists his shit up in a submission, he wins. He even got Cena with it. So...the suits stacked the deck and he couldn't win because unlike Hulk, Rock, Super Cena, or even Steve...HE'S LITTLE! The stories almost told themselves. When he beat HHH AND Orton AND Bootista, glory was upon us. And it worked!

Contrary to nerd belief, it is NOT just 'movesets' (FirePro wrestling ruined us all for a while I guess), corkscrew flips, planchas, dangerous suplexes, and reckless spots to end matches. WWE is generally right in trying to make the focus be on the stories. They're just impressively terrible at telling those stories sometimes. They can't seem to regularly make their good guys be good people ON-SCREEN like they were doing with YesGoat.

Outside of the early post-WCW era when there was a reasonably clear lack of 'wellness' all over the place, they've never had a better roster of wrestlers than they have now. Maybe that 'kill the territories' mid-80s staff was up there too, but it was a different time and you could headlock and PS Hayes your way up on a 18-minute match. It wasn't the same core of wrestling ass wrestlers. And it didn't matter then anyway since wrestling ass wrestling wasn't a focus. Steamboat was back in NWA the year after his Mania 3 joint with Savage.

nearly unbearable audio issues throughout and ya have to stare at my big ugly mug, but it was pretty fun regardless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0wxXQz9a1k

Yellow shirt dude... I just can't with his voice and mannerisms.

Otherwise not a bad outing.

so nothing I can do to help you there, but they do want me back for future shows. i should be doing my friends' wrestling podcast soon enough and they're all great so i'll be sure to post it here as well.

"EVERYBODY WAKE UP, THE 8:15 PUSSY TRAIN IS HERE!"

I think you're the first person to get the time of the pussy train right when recalling that joke, so kudos to you for the attention to detail.

I'm more excited for that than actually going to Mania

The Wembley show is the best live event (wrestling or not) I've been to all year. So much fucking FUN.

AJ Styles and Nakamura allegedly leaving new Japan? AND allegedly planning to sign with wwe!? Wth!? And a couple bullet club folks? Aka Balor club on the scene?

Aka mania 32 could be something more than taker/Cena and Roman/hhh?

Thinking about the wcw invasion...Nevermind maybe. Well...maybe these guys don't get stuck having to identify with their previous organizations. Super optimistic...maybe this gets them closer to fixing the schedule these guys work so that we they can put on stronger style matches. Ie: Brock is an extreme example but there's no way his matches are what they are if he was working 4x a week.


>The last post was over 300 strong, so it's about time for a
>new one.
>
>A legend had left us, the Great Nick Bockwinel
>
>http://www.caulifloweralleyclub.org/rip-nick-bockwinkel/
>
>It is with a heavy heart the Cauliflower Alley Club announces
>that “The Greatest AWA World Champion of All Time” and
>former CAC President and WWE Hall Of Famer, Nicholas
>“Nick” Bockwinkel, passed away Saturday night at approx.
>8:40 pm due to health issues.
>
>We will have more on this later Sunday afternoon.
>
>**EDIT** A couple of promos
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nBVTkqzG58
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrHM4NgQz5Q
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxV77nAuAQ8

He's fine, I guess. In TNA, every time I saw him he always struck me as the lovechild of Shane Helms and Jeff Jarrett - in the worst way possible.

>He's fine, I guess. In TNA, every time I saw him he always
>struck me as the lovechild of Shane Helms and Jeff Jarrett -
>in the worst way possible.

Best days Jeff Jarrett was a B- across the board...he was like a weaker, smaller HHH in that way. Helms was like a sloppy, less athletic RVD. DAAAAANG! Styles is better than that, right?

I get that TNA put a stank on him that basically won't come off with most folks. They messed him (and Samoa Joe) up so many times in so many ways.

BUT

He's pretty awesome as an in-ring thing. His run in Japan gave that back to him.

Of course, there's a gang of dudes who be flippin now so he's not as 'special' anymore. But lawd...dude was a create a wrestler earlier in his career. And now...he's straight up a good match-having dude. And if his opponent is good too, it is all the way on. WWE having more good wrestlers with their roster of wrestling ass wrestlers is a good thing. They are running out of ways to mess this up once folks stop breaking their shoulders.

If he was younger right now he'd be in NXT with everyone going nuts for him to make it to the main roster.

If he peaked in the height of the Monday Night Wars he'd have been a heavily fought over free agent, likely after making a name for himself in WCW but then getting looked over and moving to WWE like Jericho.

Instead he wallowed away in TNA during his prime

He's basically the Friday Night Lights of wrestling. Too late for the era when everyone was watching on a set night and too early for the era when everyone had access 24/7

I'm sure it just means Lesnar will win it, but it's still a nice different feel.

Guessing we'll still see Roman vs Brock at Mania but now Roman can reclaim the belt and get his WM moment he didn't get last year.

Holy shit last night was a mess.

Confirmed shoulder injury needing surgery via Twitter.

Might force them to make an interesting main event.

>Might force them to make an interesting main event.

I'm hoping they get creative but I bet they just throw a bunch of money at Rocky. I'm pretty bummed though. Wasn't looking forward to Cena-Taker exactly (if that was the plan), but he's coming off his best year.

But there also isnt anyone for him to fight that would be interesting at this point. I really don't have interest in Sting vs Taker after seeing how Sting looked vs Rollins

*Edit* Maybe this will force a Taker Kane retirement match which would be the last compelling storyline left

I'll temper my pessimism because they surprised me with 31, but they've hyped up this "biggest crowd ever" thing so much that it's gonna be tough to deliver the goods.

Just enough to be unable to compete this Mania.

It was always projected to be another Old Man Mania. This card never looked good to me. It always looked awful. It was always going to be some boring ass combination of old guys.

Cena, Hunter, Rock, Brock, Taker and possibly Sting were always projected to be in the top matches here.

Reigns and Seth were the young guys in that mix but that was pretty much it.

What’s worse now is that with Cena down that probably means Jericho gets slotted in there somewhere. OH BOY CAN’T FUCKING WAIT FOR THAT. Whoopdeefuckingdo. I get to hear more horrendously antiquated shouts of BABAAAAY! For the next 3 months.

Rock? Oh boy. It’s gonna be electrifying! Can’t wait for some more gay jokes and badly dated promo style. I got my nostalgia fill a few years back and I got one more year than I needed from him. I’m good on that.

Taker looks like an old ass drag queen now. Wrestles like one too and we’re probably going to be stuck looking at more of that awkward chin length hair. I get that I’m picking at cosmetic shit but that’s because it stands out a great deal and I just don’t give two fucks about anything he does now since his Mania programs are now just shoehorned into the card because they’re just coasting on it being TakerMania.

Hunter? Yeah I don’t see enough of him and his wife emasculating the entire roster the rest of the year. I need more Hunter like fucking cowbell. The possibilities of a tag match with McHelmsley vs Rock & Rousey was never interesting beyond some TMZ shit. Sure it would have driven buys and on its own on another card could have been interesting but since it was always going to be slotted in the muck and mire of mothballs and dentures anyways.

Brock is exciting until you realize he’s been utilized nearly exclusively with Hunter, Brock, and Cena for this entire run. Seth and Roman made things interesting last year but there wasn’t much of a program last year aside from a sitdown interview and the go home confrontation. Now if they had some fucking balls they’d start booking Owens vs Brock NOW and make that shit the headliner. Please, everyone, spare me the bullshit about Owens not being ready or Rock meaning more buys or whatever. WE NEED NEW STARS. Not old ones. Not unless it's Punk. Or hell, Angle, if he could fucking survive Mania season.

There was never anything truly intriguing about this show and the only thing that perks my ears now is that so much is up in the air. That interest dies an agonizing death when I realize this will most likely mean throwing big money at more Attitude Era guys to fill the main event because YET AGAIN, they haven’t bothered to build anyone up to true star status and likely won’t.

I remember people saying dumb shit when Rock was back talking that ‘rising tide lifts all boats’ stupidity, and all I see today is a washed up shoreline and ships that would be worth sailing if Vince would grow some goddamn grapefruits and go outside the box of his weirdly geriatric preteen sensibilies and hesitance toward all the shit that actually makes pro wrestling work instead of this mind numbingly dumb philosophy of trotting out guys who used to headline as the current headliners.

Sure it may sell a couple more subs for the month and add a couple buys for the PPV side but all the pop culture bullshit and retiree headliners NEEDS TO FUCKING STOP until they build some fucking stars and THEN add the retirees and pop culture stars in small doses so we can stop living in the goddamned attitude era in 2016.
Yeah I’m mad.

An easy storyline with Owens hating everything Rock stands for in terms of being hollywood.

A match that Rock doesn't have to do a lot, it can just be a brawl, and even him going over Owens still gives him a good rub.

That's too interesting though we'll probably just get Jericho vs Owens and snore.

Then I'm signing Austin up some a three picture deal with a major tentpole trilogy that starts filming in March.

Foleys wife will be booked to be a nagging shrew who will divorce him if he wrestles again.

Everyone from the attitude era will be booked to be anywhere outside of Texas.

The 6-man tag match was clearly building to something down the line so perhaps Mania.

The Ambrose story makes sense since they sort of started it months ago, but it's not like they have never just dropped a story.

I think Jericho vs Owens can be a good feud on the mic, Jericho can take the beating from Owens and disappear again.

I'm very focused on who Owens is fighting at Mania because I think his match is one of the most important ones, he needs to be at the top of the card next year and that starts now. In reality though he'll probably just fight Neville and beat him which won't mean much.

which i'm fine with, but now it's probably just old guy vs. old guy for 2 or 3 major matches.

and post-mania programs. I also don't think it's wise to continuously make these guys such a heavy Mania presence whether they're wrestling each other or younger guys.

If we saw something this year along the lines of Brock vs Owens and, say, Taker vs Fin Balor (deadman vs the demon? Sign me up) and that was it, yeah I’m all in on something like that. But when you look at the bulk of the upper card and see nothing but old part timers, the truth is that is still at the expense of younger talent who should begin to occupy those slots. Not to mention that Sasha Banks is the sort of talent who should occupy one of those upper tier spots.

It’s time to move on from the attitude era completely when it comes to Mania and start utilizing these older guys throughout the rest of the year in order to build younger talent into Mania headliners and begin to limit the role of throwback guys for Mania so that when we get the one or two part timers at Mania it actually feels special.

I say start those programs on the post Mania raw so that when the following Mania roles around we have a younger and fresher set of stars ready to do the heavy lifting next year.

I understand why they freak out about ratings, subscriptions, and attendance and go back to the tried and true, but it seems like the company can't learn from it's own mistakes OR successes. The youth movement is working even if the numbers aren't where you want them. Run with it, Vince.

The attitude era nostalgia needs to go away for a while. I mean for christ's sake it wasn't even THAT long ago, there's a bunch of great young guys, and Austin and Rock have been on 2 of the last 3 video game covers.

What you're saying is true, but it requires spending 11 months - or at least half a year- building to it.

What happens is they get caught up in the week to week ratings and say, well The Rock will draw bigger if we get him to appear on Raw than an Owens vs Ziggler match will so we'll just give the time to the Rock.

Then mania time comes along and the only way to sell tickets to casual fans and get the press to talk about it is to involve The Rock and Hogan and all the old guys again. They can't just decide in January that Mania should be about giving the spot to their young guys who may run with it and surprise people. They need to commit to that by Summerslam and then start the build and long term planning and commitment has never been their strength.

They could very well have made the current roster look like a million bucks without THAT many old guys wrestling, but we'll really never know because of the injuries.

he's probably my favorite wrestler to fantasy book for because he's probably the most versatile on the roster.

I'm still waiting on the 2nd step

Cesaro is clearly over at this point but all Heyman wanted to do was rub Taker's loss in everyone's face constantly. People clearly wanted to cheer Cesaro but how could they?! Disastrous booking.

at the same time. And Vince wonders why people are afraid to reach for that "brass ring".

hopefully it's not too bad, but the amount of injuries right now is insane.

Reigns v Lesnar
Taker v Daniel Bryan
Triple H v Kevin Owens
Charlotte v Bailey (winner of a women's Rumble on Raw?)
Wyatt Family v New Day (v Bullet Club?)
Jericho v Ambrose
Stardust v Goldust

Is it enough to sell 100,000 tickets? Don't know. But I think this is pretty interesting.

I won't cheat with dudes who are hurt beside the obvious one.

This mania need to matter. Stars need to get made...even at the risk of blowing some loads. There needs to be emotional gravity to it too. The storytelling has to be in-ring and high end. WWE needs to kill it.

Title: Reigns vs HHH vs Taker. Crown the kid. Let the old men do the damn honors with grand storytelling and some supreme laying around grimacing for effect so they can rest while taking turns getting their stuff in to call back and false finish folks to death.

Shinsuke vs Brock. Hour 3 main. Let Swag get physical with the beast and make a big star outta the gate. Imagine Paul doing a Paul in the interviews. And then swag hits him with the 'What? I wasn't paying attention' no-sell one good time. It would be so awesome. And then the knees and signature moves would go flying. Brock would eat them since he's a part-timer and Swag's strikes would be MADE.

Wyatts vs League of Nations. Wyatts as the faces here.

Title: New day vs kalisto and Neville. That's right. Neville is the best Sin Cara replacement.

Title: Owens vs Zayn. Hour 2 main. No dq or some kinda stip because fill Jerryland with the best wrestling possible. And those guys deserve a shot at stealing a show that needs emotional stealing. Zayn can make adults care.

AJ Styles vs Balor. Best wrestling possible. Demon entrance. Balor/Bullet club implications. Wrestling nerd gift card. Wwe needs to get on with making some stars up in here.

Title vs title. Hour 1 main: Bayley vs Flair or whoever cuz Bayley is grand and The Boss is hurt. Pretty athletic girls crying and killing it. More emotional depth gets added to the show...make it 'matter'.

Title: Jericho vs Ambrose vs Ziggler. Sorry Dean. Sorry Ziggla. Somebody's getting stuck with Jericho.

Curtain jerk/early show theft attempt: Samoa Joe vs Daniel Bryan. Silly me! I'm adding more good wrestling just to do it while these guys exist on the same roster.

Dustin vs Cody cuz you don't screw over shweet dusthy after he rolls out.

The three man matches...why so many!? Covering folks physically is my crazy idea here.

Four NXT folks is a lot. And Daniel Bryan. I'm outta my mind. But this card has folks who are totally on their roster with mostly working shoulders. It shoudnt be so unrealistic. But it is. And I left folks off who will somehow end up on the show. And that's 10 matches.

>Reigns v Lesnar
>Taker v Daniel Bryan
>Triple H v Kevin Owens
>Charlotte v Bailey (winner of a women's Rumble on Raw?)
>Wyatt Family v New Day (v Bullet Club?)
>Jericho v Ambrose
>Stardust v Goldust
>
>Is it enough to sell 100,000 tickets? Don't know. But I think
>this is pretty interesting.

No way so much of that can happen but it would be good

My dream mania based on current roster, some realistic things here and some stretches

Reigns vs HHH - there is no real Reigns story I want to see but I'd enjoy the humor of HHH winning the rumble
Brock vs Owens
Taker vs Kane
Charlotte vs Sasha vs Becky
New Day vs Enz and Cas - I don't think they could come up and get a title shot so quick, but the promos for this match are a dream
Ziggler vs Ambrose
I'd also like to see some type of NXT vs WWE match like Finn and bullet club vs League of nations or something

1. WHT: Reigns vs Ziggler
I'd have a classic Vince screw job at the Rumble with Reigns picking #30 and having it come down to he and Ziggler and Vince interfering giving the win to Reigns, who has basically succumb to the allure of the dark side. I'm not even a huge Ziggler fan but people adore him so go with it and see what happens.

2. DIVAS: Sasha vs Charlotte
Give them lots of time and they'll do the rest.

3. IC: KO vs Finn
Fin's ready for the call up and there's a potential show stealer here.

4. US: Del Rio vs Neville vs Breeze
I was desperate to include Breeze and this seemed like a good slot.

5. TAG: New Day vs ????
No idea who to put them against. Been through Dudleys which (apart from their debut) led to no memorable moments or matches; Usos again??; Luchas are on the shelf; I've included two NXT tag call ups elsewhere but for tag titles just seems too soon for them to be seen as viable contenders so I'm stumped.

6. The Rock vs HHH
They always had great chemistry and the match would be good so let's go.

7. Dudleys vs Dash & Dawson
Dash & Dawson are ready and they'd have a great fight here.

8. Ambrose vs Y2J
The seeds have been planted and I think the match would be good.

9. Paige vs Bayley
Give them lots of time and they'll do the rest.

10. Usos vs Gable & Jordan
No reason other than the fan reaction - the match could steal the show.

11. Bray Wyatt vs Brock
I dunno. Could be great as long as Bray doesn't get squashed - there could be something good to be had here particularly if Bray goes over with the squad behind him. Imagine Heyman and Bray going back & forth with the promos too.


NO UNDERTAKER. He had become a Mania attraction so don't understand why he didn't hang it up after the Streak ended. I do mean this respectfully though - he can definitely still go (his last 2 matches with Brock were great even though the booking for the SummerFest finish was disastrous!!). The streak ended, he then went on to TAP to Brock, then lose to him again. It's over dude.

Rusev and Sheamus deserve a mention in the card but I couldn't find opponents for them(?)

First and foremost I’d make this a youth movement in a massive way. I’d make this the show where new stars are born and sell this as a new beginning. A new, well, goddamnit… day. Lol.

I’d make it a point to use this show to create fresh stars. I don’t give two fucks about 100,000 tickets. I’d sell this as something we’ll look back on as a pivotal night where we all bore witness to the rise of the next generation of major stars, guys coming into their own, yadda yadda yadda. I think they could bring back some lapsed fans and indy marks with my plan to help boost ticket sales, but who knows.


1. Owens vs Ambrose for the WWE Title

Why?

-We need to make new stars. That time is NOW and these are the two best choices. Plus, despite being mired in 50/50 nonsense they can flip a switch with both of these guys with ease to get them ready for Mania. Tell the story of Owen’s incredible first year and his obsession with Ambrose for beating him for the IC strap. Owens wins the rumble and since the winner usually gets the match at Mania, Dean can make the argument that decision can be made that the IC champ should be the de facto #1contender. Del Rio would pop up and make the same argument for the US champ, despite not having the title.

Del Rio vows to get the strap back and does with help from the LON, and this sets up a non-title match at Fastlane for a shot at the WWE title at Mania that Ambrose wins despite interference from League of Nations members on orders from The Authority. Reigns makes the save on this and we get IC Champ vs WWE Champ in the main.

Winner: Ambrose. KO will get a nice three month run as a sadistic, white hot heel and Ambrose is just the guy to prevent KO from getting too many smarks to cheer for him. Both guys get over and elevate to the title picture.

2. Brock vs Reigns.

Why?

-Roman decides that putting an end to The Authority is the biggest priority in all of WWE and decides his pursuit of the title must wait until he gets rid of The Authority, because the Authority starts putting the screws to all the faces in order to fuck with Reigns.

He decides to do this after learning that the LON interference in the Calisto/Del Rio match was on orders of the Authority and Calisto winds up hurt in a bad way. Reigns makes a proposal: he’ll sign a contract that prohibits him from ever getting another WWE title match against the very existence of The Authority. No gimmicks. No out clauses for either party. No loopholes where only Cena can rehire them. All or nothing. He challenges Hunter to a match at Mania.

Hunter counters under the same terms, but with one key change: Brock fights in Hunters place. Reigns expected this and signs. Brock signs up on some mercenary shit because that’s what he is anyways. Heyman also makes it clear that it’s in Brock’s best interest to keep the Authority in power because they’re lining his pockets.

After The Authority signs, Reigns drops a bombshell: in their arrogance as McMahons (yeah you too Hunter, lol) under the impression they can easily stack the deck, they signed without reading the entire contract and didn’t catch a major element of the deal. The Rock will be present in Romans corner for this match…. But he’s also a fair man (ahem: babyface) and says that the contract also allows Hunter to be in Brocks corner, but no one else is allowed at ringside.

Then we get a few Heyman/Rock promo battles along the road to Mania.
Winner: Reigns, for obvious reasons. Say audios to the Authority and plant seeds for Brock/Rock down the road somewhere that’s not Mania. Probably Survivor Series as that show needs a boost.

Plus we get Rock + Hunter without them having the actual match, which I don't fucking want for anything. We do get the rub though.

3.Taker vs… who knows. Who gives a fuck, really.

Why? Who cares. I don’t care. Unless they bring up Baron Corbin or Samoa Joe or some shit for this and make it a point to use Takers legacy to mint a new star (in WWE, in Joe’s case) I just plain don’t give a fuck. I’m over Taker at Mania. If I had it my way he’d retire and be gone from Mania. Sorry. But he’s going to be there and people still seem to want to watch the Deadmans Corpse lumber around and I’m fantasy booking to some degree based on things that have at least some chance of happening so I guess I have to include him. If I had that book I would bring up Joe for this match.

Winner: I could care less. Personally I would book Joe and elevate him here.

4. Balor Club vs The Wyatt family.

Why?

THIS IS AWESOME. That’s why. This is THAT match. I’d book BC strong and introduce Balor’s Demon at Mania. I’d have TWF set this one off. I’d have Balor and Bray head up these promos with Brays usual deal and Balor telling Bray he doesn’t know what he’s dealing with, teasing the Demon along the way. I’d consider adding some members to each group too as part of the story on the way to Mania. Probably kill this social outcasts bullshit and have Bray pull Hennig and Slater to the Wyatts and add to Corbin to BC for the rub.

I think this match could be a big selling point if built properly.

Who goes over: Wyatts and I’d put Bray and Harper over strong. I’m not sure how I’d do the finish because everyone needs to look strong here regardless of who goes over. Wyatts need some juice though and I’d continue this until SS with the BC ultimately coming out on top.

That’s the top of my Mania card. Not sure about the rest. I think Del Rio vs Neville with Neville going over would work well. There's still Ziggler, Bryan, Ryback, Show, New Day, Usos, etc to book but aside from Bryan there's nobody I really want in my top 4 matches.

I might debut Nakamura the on the post Mania Raw. I’d have Brock come out and fuck up some mid card guys during a match and have him repeat later in the show. Maybe say he’s sending a message on behalf of the Authority. The Authority may be gone, but Brock’s still here and he’s still a hired hand and they’ve paid him handsomely to make sure the WWE roster knows they can still make shit happen.

Whatever. I’d refine that idea down the road but I’d have Brock putting on his second beating of the night and have Nakamura come out and get in his face. Brock stops dead in his tracks, looks like he’s seen a goddamned ghost and bounces.

I think this would firmly establish fresh faces and a fresh direction for WWE as a whole with this. Everyone is built into a big deal, some things get resolved and others get built up for another payoff down the road.

Reigns v Owens for the WWE Title
Brock v Rusev
Taker v Bray
Rock v Daniel Bryan
Triple H v Rusev
Charlotte v Sasha
Paige v Emma
New Day v Bullet Club
Sheamus v Ambrose
Kalisto v Neville
Do they even have enough guys for a battle royale? I think 1/3 would have to be from the NXT roster.

I remember him as "King of the Jobbers" and for that eternal black "protective" armband...lol


https://youtu.be/1PVOsmGnD1o

It's not super outside the box or NWO level but it throws a huge wrench into Mania season and I genuinely have no fucking clue where their going.

I have ideas, but there are enough variables here that it's intriguing and doesn't feel predictable. For now, that is.

not even gonna get my hopes up about the wyatts this time.

Thing is, with Cena gone for so long I think it's finally hitting home that they need to make new stars in a bad way.

YES!!! THE WYATTS ARE GONNA TAKE OVER
.
.
.
.
.
.

then reality set in and I thought "they're gonna screw it up...AGAIN"

...is from this moment forward push Bray to the fucking moon.

All this guy does is talk about chaos. What if he really followed through on that promise, flew under the radar of everyone's BS with the Authority and Lesnar and Reigns, and won the thing? Man.

Owens and Ambrose need to get into the title picture down the road. With a mix of Bray, Reigns, Brock, occupying that title mix through Mania they should be able to elevate Owens and Ambrose to the fringes of the main event/title mix to get them ready while Neville and Calisto gain momentum in the mid card.

We already have the New Day holding down the mid card pretty well in their slot but there's a huge opportunity right now to go all in with these guys, not to mention Styles coming in and the return of Cesaro and Rollins, maybe Orton down the road.

Still not sure what they're doing with the League Of Nations since they should have been able to beat Brock into a coma and didn't. From a physicality + actual work standpoint Sheamus is a golden opportunity they've probably ruined beyond repair. he should be booked as able to go toe to toe with Brock but nope. We get more Broly (c) DBZ Brock.

At least Harper laid his ass out with a solid boot and that nice looking discus clothesline. Hopefully he gets some shine in this mix as well.

At any rate the cynic in me is screaming at the realest in me because I just know they'll fuck this up too and It will still be The Steph & Paul show (featuring The Rock) at Mania and everyone but Brock will still be a secondary player.

Wyatt will cost Lesnar and Reigns the Rumble but not win it. We'll either have a random 4th person as champ or possibly a vacant title

Fast Lane will involve figuring out the #1 contender, probably a triple threat match, Lesnar, Reigns and Wyatt.

Reigns will win and win the belt at Mania. Wyatt and Lesnar will fight a useless match at mania and Wyatt will lose another big feud.

The big question here is who the 4th person is to be transitional champ, that could be interesting at least. A good spot for a guy the internet is clammoring for to get a short run like Jericho got waiting for HHH to return.

HHH wins Rumble

Some kind of #1 contender match at FAst Lane

HHH vs Reigns at Mania
Brock vs Wyatt at Mania

>HHH wins Rumble
>

it definitely feels like they're throwing us off their scent, so this is very much within reason.

Not counting NXT

I sure hope he makes it out ok !!!




What are we all seven years old? Jesus.

cant even get buried clean

Matt Hardy with the quality heel turn to win the TNA belt..........................................................................................and his wife can get it.

>Matt Hardy with the quality heel turn to win the TNA
>belt..........................................................................................and
>his wife can get it.

>Matt Hardy . . . win the TNA belt

the Kurt Angle "Farewell Tour" with matches against quality opponents like Drew Mcintyre and Bobby Lashley

>Matt Hardy with the quality heel turn to win the TNA
>belt..........................................................................................and
>his wife can get it.

Yes she can. TNA is a goldmine for that tho.

Matt Hardy main-eventing any televised wrestling show in 2016 IS crazy. I like EC3 as much as most do. He's a great character heel. I guess Hardy gets to do his indy heel thing now?

I watched the year-end TNA shows along with a couple of those round-robin shows where it was mostly wrestling and dollhouse promos. Not bad. But I can't be messing with those fools on a weekly basis. I don't even watch all of any Raw nowadays. And I'll mess around and read results before I watch a WWE PPV if I don't love the card.

Obviously, I'm in on the Rumble tho. I'll 2-tv it up in my cave so I can watch the Rumble and Zona/Carolina at the same damn time.

Rumble...

They have a great chance to do cool stuff. They'll get some stuff in, but I can't see it getting too crazy. IE: no Phil. No Bryan. Prolly no Cena. No Orton or Rollins.

I'll be borderline shocked if HHH doesn't at least troll folks by coming out late in the Rumble (late 20s). Maybe they'll have an Omaha code to go with an alternate ending if he comes out and the crowd X-Pac heats him up.

I'll be even more shocked if they risk ruining the goodwill they have by having Reigns pull a Hogan/Austin/Cena-style superface win.

Somehow I think we get Taker showing up (after HHH so we can get the 'awww shit!' face from the heels).

Wyatt's will be on the scene but I don't see dude winning. I just don't. Maybe he's the one who ends up with Brock at Mania...

I don't know how they can have Styles show up in the rumble but get tossed out. He'd look like a bitch unless he gets a super protective exit....bwahahahahahahaha! Just kidding! This is WWE!

I'm STILL calling for a Reigns vs HHH vs Taker Mania main event. But I also want Shinsuke vs Brock, so I'm probably the crazy one that WWE isn't thinking about trying to please. I'm going to Mania and the Raw after Mania so maybe they should reconsider! I'll head to Dallas Saturday afternoon and roll out Tuesday morning. It'll be great.

So much for them keeping him off TV to hope people forgot about it.

Odds to Win the Royal Rumble 2016

Triple H 6/5
Roman Reigns 9/5
Brock Lesnar 3/1
Bray Wyatt 15/1
The Rock 16/1
Daniel Bryan 18/1
Dean Ambrose 20/1
Kevin Owens 20/1
The Undertaker 25/1
Rusev 33/1
Sheamus 33/1
Braun Strowman 33/1
AJ Styles 33/1
Ryback 35/1
Finn Balor 40/1
Cesaro 40/1
Dolph Ziggler 40/1
Alberto Del Rio 50/1
Chris Jericho 50/1
Randy Orton 50/1
Vince or Shane McMahon 65/1
Kalisto 66/1
Neville 75/1
The Big Show 80/1
Mark Henry 95/1
Curtis Axel 100/1
Big E 100/1
El Torito 150/1
Fernando 150/1
Luke Harper 100/1
Kane 100/1
Kofi Kingston 100/1
Titus O’Neill 100/1
Erick Rowan 100/1
R-Truth 100/1
Stardust 100/1
Heath Slater 100/1
King Barrett 150/1
Bo Dallas 150/1
Fandango 150/1
Goldust 150/1
Tyson Kidd 150/1
The Miz 150/1
Shinsuke Nakamura 150/1
Alex Riley 150/1
Adam Rose 150/1
Zack Ryder 150/1
Damien Sandow 150/1
Darren Young 150/1
Stone Cold E.T. 200/1

Break even with a Trips win, and have Bray as my underdog.

It would be incredible to see, but I don't think it's medically possible, like he could probably do a quick apperrance at this point and maybe deliver a hit, but could not win a rumble and become champ and then have to carry that schedule.

So HHH walking out as #30 and winning the whole thing doesn't seem far-fetched at all. The boos will be deafening but at least this time it'll be the reaction they want as opposed to the last few years.

Definitely thought they were going with Reigns/Lesnar but maybe they're still not confident in Reigns coming off good in that pairing.

Maybe Reigns vs HHH happens at Fast Lane instead because HHH headlining Mania seems like a joke.

Or you could see some kind of Bryan situation where Reigns has to fight HHH for the title in the first match at Mania, but this time if he wins he gets punished and has to fight Lesnar in the main event.

I don't know what the plan is but HHH gives them options, putting it on Brock basically just settles what Mania will be on Sunday.

>So HHH walking out as #30 and winning the whole thing doesn't
>seem far-fetched at all. The boos will be deafening but at
>least this time it'll be the reaction they want as opposed to
>the last few years.
>
>Definitely thought they were going with Reigns/Lesnar but
>maybe they're still not confident in Reigns coming off good in
>that pairing.

I'm about sure that Wyatt is a smokescreen who won't get past the final 4. Jericho will go out just before that.

I hope they don't risk hearing the crowd react to Reigns throwing everyone out to give him the fake win before the shenanigans.

My guess is HHH comes out as #31 after being nowhere on the whole show and aims to steal the rumble.

Giving that spot to AJ styles via HHH intro on the ramp while AJ sneaks up behind would be sweeeeet (c) lil sweet.

It's Orlando. Styles would get love.

I'll even take the 'masked dude outta nowhere sneak attack' intro for AJ Styles. Of course, we'd know it was him cuz we're nerds and we'd recognize the body type and know he was too big to be Bryan and too small to be Orton, Shinsuke, or Rollins. Too bad they don't have the sack to do that. It would be sweet tho...if only for the month before fastlane.

It'd be brilliant!

Those are great odds. Shit, Sheamus has really low odds for a recent champ too.

>Kevin Owens 20/1

>Sheamus 33/1

Who I wouldn't mind seeing win the belt

>Brock Lesnar
>Bray Wyatt
>Kevin Owens
>Braun Strowman
>AJ Styles (or Stylish Al Jones, or whatever they name him...smh)
>Cesaro
>Shane McMahon (just to see the intro...he's drop the belt on Raw the next day, but I'd love to see it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIxwGqR_Mik

Who I expect to win

>Roman Reigns
>Brock Lesnar
>Daniel Bryan
>Dean Ambrose
>Sheamus
>Bray Wyatt

PLEASE GOD..NOOOOO

>Triple H
>The Rock
>Dean Ambrose
>The Undertaker
>Ryback

It's gotta be something borderline realistic.

I'll go first:

Reigns is getting beatdown by a few heels. Even HHH has come out at 29. But the kid is surviving. #30 is up. The whole internet is hoping for a shortlist of folks who it won't be: Styles, Bryan, Nakamura, etc.

It's the Rock. He gets his shit in but ends up doing something shady and throwing out Reigns to win the whole thing. We get Hollywood Rock, hilarity ensues, and Reigns goes over at Mania vs his cuzo.

This is just one random idea. I still 'want' hhh vs taker vs reigns. I think that's the biggest match they have that they are willing to do. Brock in a triple threat is great too but he doesn't 'need' it like the old guys might at this point.

As long as Shinsuke gets a real match with someone like Owens, styles, or someone who he can kill it with, I'm fine. With their limited roster, there's no way they don't stick him on the show, right? I'm not gonna be watching a 3mb vs new day match at mania, right?

>The last post was over 300 strong, so it's about time for a
>new one.
>
>A legend had left us, the Great Nick Bockwinel
>
>http://www.caulifloweralleyclub.org/rip-nick-bockwinkel/
>
>It is with a heavy heart the Cauliflower Alley Club announces
>that “The Greatest AWA World Champion of All Time” and
>former CAC President and WWE Hall Of Famer, Nicholas
>“Nick” Bockwinkel, passed away Saturday night at approx.
>8:40 pm due to health issues.
>
>We will have more on this later Sunday afternoon.
>
>**EDIT** A couple of promos
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nBVTkqzG58
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrHM4NgQz5Q
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxV77nAuAQ8

in which case the LoN comes in and beats down Roman to a pulp, 4-on-1.

Out comes Vince McMahon.

"Congratulations Roman but as I said this year's Royal Rumble was going to be special. Not only is the WWE World Heavyweight Championship on the line, but we have 31 entrants instead of 30. Ladies and gentlemen, the 31st entrant of the Royal Rumble is....."

*Triple H's music hits*

Roman/HHH brawl for a bit but Roman is running on E after spending an hour+ in the Rumble plus a beatdown by the LoN. HHH tosses out Roman.

We get HHH/Roman for the Title at Mania (Roman's rematch)
Something happens where the Wyatts take out Lesnar in the Rumble and carry him off like they did Taker after HIAC. Sets up Bray/Lesnar at Mania as well.

It does nothing for anyone

Bray won't win and now we are just looking at another feud that he lost.

Brock beating Bray also does nothing for him, at this point he's just beating up upper midcarders

Bray needs somebody he can beat at Mania this year before they risk him finally just becoming irrelevant.

Bray obviously can't beat Brock by himself, kayfabe wise NOBODY can, but he can get help from his cult/family and do the job. In doing so they need to seriously start making the Wyatts an actual sadistic, even demonic cult and not just a bunch of dudes in dirty clothes with long beards. Really take it to Brock, leave him bloodied and in shambles, "Sacrifice the Beast".

vivid's website

https://youtu.be/d1R7Dx_xepY

"If you wanna help us, fine. Sit down with your kids and make 'em study at night...otherwise, shoot THIS mothaf*cka!" (c) Morgan Freeman,

https://www.facebook.com/WWENXT/videos/942794605770104/


With Nakamura and AJ Styles joining WWE, and now Aries, is this gonna be a new era in WWE, or just adding more talent that will be mid-carders or worse in six months...maybe this will trigger some "Wish him well in their future endeavors" notices. Hoping for the best...expecting much less.

At this point it's basically becoming ROH and not even creating home grown talent which I'm fine with.

But these guys have no place in WWE and never really wanted to be a part of WWE before NXT.

I can see a day where these guys are not even working towards the main roster but simply developing an "indy fed" within the WWE.

>https://www.facebook.com/WWENXT/videos/942794605770104/
>
>
>With Nakamura and AJ Styles joining WWE, and now Aries, is
>this gonna be a new era in WWE, or just adding more talent
>that will be mid-carders or worse in six months...maybe this
>will trigger some "Wish him well in their future endeavors"
>notices. Hoping for the best...expecting much less.

It's a setup. They want the best Indy guys to see wwe as a destination. For that, they need to take on cats like Aries and at least pretend to 'utilize' them. Nxt is prolly 'losing $' right now so wwe has to grow it at some point as well as 'make some stars'.

I'm very interested/scared about Styles And Shinsuke are gonna get introduced and used.

Is pretty damn awesome. Even 'bad' matchups tend to yield solid wrestling. And there's so many good wrestlers that they had to work to find bad matchups.

But hell, old dudes were working their asses off and some of history's best workers were on the scene at the same damn time as some of the biggest stars ever. So you kinda couldn't show up bullshitting in the ring. I just watched an unnecessarily good Hoke Hogan vs Bike Dude Taker title match.

I'm about to get into a Kurt Angle vs Hogan match from kotr 2002. And I have a straight face and I'm not scared. I'll tell you why: Angle has the wig and the headwrap. Fuggin Prime Kurt Angle is the best. And there's like 3 different kurts during this time.

>The last post was over 300 strong, so it's about time for a
>new one.
>
>A legend had left us, the Great Nick Bockwinel
>
>http://www.caulifloweralleyclub.org/rip-nick-bockwinkel/
>
>It is with a heavy heart the Cauliflower Alley Club announces
>that “The Greatest AWA World Champion of All Time” and
>former CAC President and WWE Hall Of Famer, Nicholas
>“Nick” Bockwinkel, passed away Saturday night at approx.
>8:40 pm due to health issues.
>
>We will have more on this later Sunday afternoon.
>
>**EDIT** A couple of promos
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nBVTkqzG58
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrHM4NgQz5Q
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxV77nAuAQ8

Their second tier guys were Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, and Edge. I mean come on.

There's a triple threat Rock v Taker v Angle match from some PPV in 2002. Fully Loaded? Unforgiven? I think Taker comes in champ and Rock wins then takes the title into his Lesnar program. Dogg the match is stupid good.

There's a Taker v RVD hardcore match from, I don't know, Survivor Series maybe 2002, 2003?

Rey Mysterio vs Kurt Angle at Summerslam 02.

Edge and Hogan won the tag titles on Smackdown around 03?

HBK vs Jericho at Mania 19 of course. (Hogan vs Vince at Mania 19, Austin vs Rock Mania 19, Lesnar vs Angle Mania 19. MANIA 19!!!)

Just so much really great in-ring work in the early 2000s. Damn near everyone could GO.

Here I am a decade later wishing for those days

Great pick!

Anyone remember Taker vs Hardy in a ladder match on a Smackdown for the title. I was screaming for Jeff to do the impossible with that match but even though he didn't win, the ending was superb. Great match.

Countless matches to mention from that period.

I always remember that promo with his voice cracking, bent like a pretzel. That was my peak interest in Jeff Hardy

I was only getting Summerfest and Mania every year in the 2000s up until WWE Network enriched my life by making all of the monthly shows realistic options. Add in that I all but quit watching weekly shows off and on during 2004 - 2010-ish.

AKA I missed a lot of those other PPV matches even when I was watching Raws and Smackdowns, so I'm going back and remembering/'discovering' these matches (in some cases...again). And of course, the WWE video package machine makes every mid-card and above match seem at least decently important at time.

Hoke and Flair weren't locks to main event anything, but they were both still capable of getting carried to something decent by then. Once Shawn came back and started his second, somehow better career, it was curtains.

Angle, Benoit, and/or Jericho are on the scene wrestling their asses off as Austin and Rock got close to their ends and Brock/Cena/Edge are coming up. Angle especially...just silly. Sure, the 3-7 ankle lock sequences per match are what they are, but dude was crazy good.

I peeped that 2002 KOTR final. RVD vs Brock. Whoa young Brock...his arms look fake long. He did a full rotation powerslam from a flat-foot position. It was silly. He also did the 'catch from the top rope --> F5' reversal. And of course, RVD was outrageously athletic too. He did a jumping kick from the top rope with a c'mon now amount of air under it.

I'ma look into that Rey vs Kurt. I assume he was owning his baldness by then. Wig + headgear Angle is amazing...he could somehow wrestle seriously with that on.

>Their second tier guys were Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, and Edge.
>I mean come on.
>
>There's a triple threat Rock v Taker v Angle match from some
>PPV in 2002. Fully Loaded? Unforgiven? I think Taker comes in
>champ and Rock wins then takes the title into his Lesnar
>program. Dogg the match is stupid good.
>
>There's a Taker v RVD hardcore match from, I don't know,
>Survivor Series maybe 2002, 2003?
>
>Rey Mysterio vs Kurt Angle at Summerslam 02.
>
>Edge and Hogan won the tag titles on Smackdown around 03?
>
>HBK vs Jericho at Mania 19 of course. (Hogan vs Vince at Mania
>19, Austin vs Rock Mania 19, Lesnar vs Angle Mania 19. MANIA
>19!!!)
>
>Just so much really great in-ring work in the early 2000s.
>Damn near everyone could GO.