WWE Title Match
The Rock vs. CM Punk

Last Man Standing Match for the World Heavyweight Title Match
Big Show vs. Alberto Del Rio

WWE Tag Team Title Match
Cody Rhodes and Damien Sandow vs. Kane and Daniel Bryan

30-Man Royal Rumble Match
John Cena, Sheamus, Randy Orton, Dolph Ziggler, Heath Slater, Drew McIntyre, Jinder Mahal, Antonio Cesaro, Wade Barrett, The Miz, Ryback, Bo Dallas, Kane, Daniel Bryan, The Great Khali, Kofi Kingston, Darren Young, Titus O'Neil

WWE United States Title Match (Pre-show)
The Miz vs. Antonio Cesaro

Sorry for cutting into your usual post, KC player! Tried to be faithful to the format.

That moment between Bret and Ricardo was great.

Really hope they avoid going the obvious route tonight, having Rock win the strap, and Cena win the Rumble. We'll see though.

I was listening to Colt Cabana's podcast interview with Dolph Ziggler, and Ziggler mentioned that he was in the ring before a show, going over a match with Show and some other guys, and Show reached over the ropes to the floor and with one arm picked up Curt Hawkins (or somebody) and lifted him into the ring in what was basically a 200-pound lateral dumbbell raise.

That's just absurdly strong. Bret Hart wrote something about that too, that regular-size guys exist at the giants' pleasure.

Knowing this makes the suspension of disbelief more difficult.

Didn't know where they'd go after the chokeslam through the table, but I loved it.

.

This just got good

Looking trim too. God, I love the Royal Rumble, it's gonna suck when Super Cena comes out and ruins this.

Shield comes out, starts to clean house, Cena comes back
& gets rid of them. Cena eliminates Ziggler to win
& it's gonna be lame.

nm

for the title?

Pretty much.

This truly is the darkest timeline.

I was hoping someone stepped up and did it. Hope its been a good show, I ordered the PPV and recorded it, about to start watching now....

*leaving post to avoid any spoilers*



<---- Downtown Kansas City, Missouri 5/24/2011

Best in the world!!!!

The Rocky comeback. Meh.

Lol, spoke too soon.

Probably forgot.

nm

Rock used it as his finisher for a little while, but yea, a shitty way to take the belt off Punk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1QCBF3h_tM&list=FLX3TwncL3Ku0fjkJFQPoIEQ&index=123

i was expecting the Rock to win, but him beating CM Punk with the people's elbow was wack. At least hit him with a Rock Bottom.

i mean as far as the rock winning
the 'genius' plan of the shield phantom run-in was good
i think this is a great time to have punk run his new stable
the stars were aligned for rock/cena II for the title
the hugest swerve would be for ziggler to cash in on the rock & win

but the way he won was wack. You have CM Punk champion for over 400 days, proclaiming he has defended his title through ladder matches, No DQ, triple threat, cages matches, yet he loses cleanly to the people's elbow.

i am not saying they should of exchanged a bunch of finishers. But i dont think the rock hit one big move. It would of been more realistic for the rock to have hit CM Punk with a chair or a even the belt.

Didn't he beat Hogan at Wrestlemania with it? And I know he beat HHH for the title with it. If they can lose to it, so can Punk.

I agree, Rock got in no offense. I wonder if Punk was being a prick and protecting himself, since he was losing. And the table breaking before the Rock bottom was unfortunate.

Rock's beaten practically everyone with the elbow so not sure why people are treating it like a kneedrop - it's the People's Elbow goshdarnit! lol

Rock lookin like MJ on the Wiz catching the ball in transition from Tyronn Lue with two knee braces on. What a buster this guy has become.

The only silver lining in this is that Rock will drop it to Cena, someone hugely deserving of such a rub.

his promos every week were great. Him and Paul Heyman basically trolling everyone was fun to watch.

He will prolly face the undertaker next, prolly proclaim his streak is the greatest streak in WWE history and boom Undertaker comes out.

nobody should be surprised by this, but of course people are based on what i've seen around the internet.

lmao. niggas is MAD.

that would be the biggest swerve....
EVER

oh well
Cena vs The Rock II ( obvious win for SuperCena )
Punk vs Taker ( Punk will end the streak )
Ziggler vs ADR ( Zig is gonna cash in at EC, and take the WHC )

>oh well
>Cena vs The Rock II ( obvious win for SuperCena )

i remember when they made that match thinking "man it's gonna be weird for the two of them to fight w/o it being a title match...oh"

instead of being all pissy about how it went down, wrestling fans should look at punk's run as a success. when he got the belt, i never imagined that he'd keep it a month, let along this long. that shows me that the WWE believes in punk. but they're not gonna keep the belt off the golden goose forever. they're just not. one of my major hangups w/ the current direction over the years is how they've handled cena. but it is what it is.

and this wont be the last time punk will have the belt either.
(i look forward to the pissing and moaning when punk jobs to taker. i cant see them putting him over The Streak.)

i just hope they can build up someone i actually like and want to root for. because there's not really anyone in the current roster i feel invested in. but i'm always willing to give it a few weeks of run to see what catches me.

Rock v Cena 2 for the title is exactly the kind of match you want headlining Wrestlemania in a football stadium. I get why it's going to happen.

I don't get why there are so few true Rumble contenders.
I don't get why we still don't have any other superstars other than Cena.
I don't get why we're saddled with uninspired mediocre bodies like the Miz, Sheamus, Kofi Kingston, and Alberto Del Rio. (I can't recall having ever seen more guys that left me feeling so 'meh' everytime they came through the curtain.)

I mean here it is 2013 and the best guys we have for the job are The Rock and John Cena? That's not an indictment on Cena and Rock, it's instead a bright spotlight on the crater that is WWE main event talent.

just a quick pulse from glancing around the thread.

i COMPLETELY agree w/ pretty much everything you said though. like i said in one of my other posts. i really don't like ANYBODY on the current roster.

>I don't get why we still don't have any other superstars other
>than Cena.

WWE aint ballsy enough to invest in developing more stars. Cena is always a safe play for them.

To me them needing celebrities(cena,Rock,lesnar) to headline WM isn't an indictment of anyone on the roster. In a perfect world guys like Daniel Bryan, Ziggler, Punk who are beyond over should be headlining Wrestlemania, but they don't get the uninformed casual fan interested, at that is what WM is all about.

Heel turn in time for Cena to go for the belt.

He was about to hit the People's Elbow and win.....why would he have them interfere....just to hit the People's Elbow and win? He could've just won in the first place without going through a table.

My brother and I were talking about how cool it would've been if it was revealed during the Rumble that Orton was behind the Shield and they started protecting him and he eventually won when they eliminated themselves.

i ain't really mad at the results, albeit a bit surprised. IMO rock's gonna need to work a regular schedule if he's gonna carry the strap to WM. otherwise he's on some hogan '93 shit.

for a minute they were teasin' ziggler like HBK's first royal rumble.

going in i was ready to mark out if jericho made his return...and they COMPLETELY delivered.

i think creative's gonna need to eventually write ricardo rodriguez's character out off the script to get del rio over as a strong face. iono, he seems like a valet at this point.

btw, michael cole should think about retiring soon. multiple vocal botches throughout the broadcast. the dude just sucks at this point.

well worth the PPV buy all-in-all, though.

>i ain't really mad at the results, albeit a bit surprised.
>IMO rock's gonna need to work a regular schedule if he's gonna
>carry the strap to WM. otherwise he's on some hogan '93 shit.
>
>for a minute they were teasin' ziggler like HBK's first royal
>rumble.
>
>going in i was ready to mark out if jericho made his
>return...and they COMPLETELY delivered.
>
>i think creative's gonna need to eventually write ricardo
>rodriguez's character out off the script to get del rio over
>as a strong face. iono, he seems like a valet at this point.
>
>btw, michael cole should think about retiring soon. multiple
>vocal botches throughout the broadcast. the dude just sucks at
>this point.
>
>well worth the PPV buy all-in-all, though.

LOL@ getting del rio over as a face wtf are you talking about he is OVER AS A FACE faster than even WWE thought del rio is getting the best face reactions on RAW just this past week.

Some of yall dudes be saying anything

might be the reason for the huge Del Rio pops, they cheered the hell out of him even when he was a heel.....



You gon' live forever
Whether you want to or not
Some of us gon' end up holy
Some of us gon' end up hot.....

2003 is looking like one hell of a year, everybody.

Everyone was disappointed with the shotgun push of Summer of Punk ("he should have stayed away longer!") right? So Punk does his obligatory face run while Cena vs Rock severely underwhelmed in both the build up and the resolution. Now, here's where the theory begins:

- During his face run Punk goes to Vince and asks him (based on his success with Summer of Punk) to give him a chance to feud with Rock, saying that he could do better with Rock than Cena. This time as a SLOW burn, something planned out several months in advance.

- Vince agrees, Rock agrees, so during that PPV (I forget which) Punk turns heel... by GTS'ing The Rock. And thus begins Heel Punk.

Taking a step back to Vince's agreement to give Punk the feud he wants, Vince stipulates one thing: Rock (or Cena) must have the title so the two can revisit last year's booking for this year's Wrestlemania: Rock vs Cena II for the WWE Title. Punk agrees, so he gets to orchestrate HIS OWN 4-5 month build for the eventual feud with the Rock.

So during Heel Punk, he:

- Reintroduces Paul Heyman
- Legitimizes his reign by beating Cena several times and defends successfully against Ryback. This leads to his "400 days as WWE Champion" gimmick.
- The feud with Ryback introduces The Shield, who are 3 indie guys being thrown directly into the main event scene

Then when Rock steps into the picture with Punk he got called out for being trite and overplayed... but instead of having a juvenile insulting match, he elevates his game and gives us an amazing (albeit short) feud.

(If you did not see Rock vs Punk on Smackdown this week, this is an AMAZING promo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUB8zT5ldSo)

So tonight was the culmination of that feud that also releases Rock to turn to Cena. Punk can now side with The Shield and Maddox, or he can build a program with Taker for Mania.

This is why I *knew* Punk was gonna drop the belt to Rock tonight (that dark arena shit was pretty corny)... I would have accepted a technicality, but I much preferred them restarting the match. And Rock superselling his OWN (not even a) finishing move?!?!!!? Fucking great. Only Punk could get the best out of the Rock in front of a mic AND in the ring.

So, yeah... It's a theory that will never be verifiable, but I am *convinced* that this is what happened. So whatever the case may be... bravo Punk.

but aside from that, I'd really love to know how Punk genuinelly felt about dropping to Rock. He was very vocal last year about Rock headlining WM (at the supposed expense of full-timers) so he must feel some kind of way about dropping the belt to Rock cleanly in his second match in 7 years(?). Would love to know what his genuine reaction was when he was told.

I think the true pros - Cena and Punk namely - know the immense value of having Rock around and they welcome it behind the scenes while stating otherwise on TV.

where namely Punk and Orton were fairly disgruntled at Rock taking the spotlight from them and other stars at WM. Shoot internet interviews as opposed to 'in character' ones, although I agree that the logic should be that they'd be happy about it.

>he must feel some kind of way about dropping
>the belt to Rock cleanly in his second match in 7 years(?).
>Would love to know what his genuine reaction was when he was
>told.

To follow along with my theory, this was just Punk's way to get a feud with Rock the way HE wanted to feud with the Rock. And I think he really succeeded.

Now, this doesn't change the fact that he still may (and probably still does) hold grudges against Rock and WWE for not pushing rising stars in Mania. But it's not like Punk got nothing from the feud. Remember, he now gets Heyman on TV every week, his buddies are in the main event scene, and he just got a huge title reign. And now his heat is still so high that he can (hopefully) start a great build with Undertaker.

There's talk that this is going to be Taker's last year (makes sense, esp since he's not getting any younger and he just had his first child with McCool). People have talked about Taker vs Ziggler but there's no real connection between the two (plus Jericho's back). Punk's elevation to the main event scene is unquestioned, so Taker facing him wouldn't be a stretch whatsoever (and Punk would receive SERIOUS heat if he ended The Streak). Trips vs Taker III would garner zero interest, and (if rumors are supposed to be true) if he did have a match, it'd be with Brock.

At this point, I don't think Punk needs the belt to be effective. He's more than proven himself, and retiring Taker would just be the next logical step. (A Title vs Streak match doesn't make sense to me just because we know Taker isn't ever coming back full time. I realize that the same can be said about Rock, but at least we know that Cena vs Rock II was already booked for WM this year, whether or not we like it).

I think that's exactly the point - the fact that Rock Cena II was always going to be the big WM main event match is specifically what would irk me, if I was Punk. He carried that belt for a long time and did a fantastic job but ultimately could end up feeling that he was just keeping the belt warm to pass it over and make way for THEIR big match.

I remember seeing a Bret Hart interview and he talked about HBK's rise and the build-up to their iron man match - he said he felt he was just getting ready to hand it over because everything was gearing up to making Michaels the next big star and he didn't feel he was afforded any respect to his past accomplishments.

I'd understand it if Punk felt that way, particularly as he has no real WM plans in place (should Undertake shoot down the WM return, what's Punk going to do then?

You're right about his accomplishments over the last 400+ days but WM is the big spotlight and he could feel that he's been denied the right to bask in that spotlight.

but I could see that being the concession to Vince to make sure Punk gets what HE wants (Heyman, Shield, long reign).

Besides, it sets Punk up perfectly well to feud with Taker to break The Streak.

I'm not talking about Rock winning, I'm talking about the interference thing.

So say it as the Shield (I don't think it was but they want us to think it was)

Punk didn't get sripped or win, Rock won anyway so was there even a point of the interference?

Say it was the Undertaker because he wanted punk at WM in a streak vs streak match...he failed

*Edit* as I was writing this with several creative ideas I hoped happened instead of the Shield my friend showed me the screenshot in the next post so I gave up with theories

http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/267261-photo-clear-shot-of-who-attacked-the-rock-at-the-royal-rumble

I really didn't think they were going to go with it being the shield, how uncreative.

Hear me out on this, forget the idea that Cena vs Rock has to be the big money making match.

You have a heel who has been champ for 400+ days just like the old days, you build up this young popular face chasing him for months and then he never gets the belt? I hate Ryback, but this is why you have no stars WWE. You had the opportunity to take any guy and build him into a made man by dethroning Punk and you gave it to a guy already in the hall of fame who hasn't held the belt in 10 years? Announcing nobody on your roster can actually beat Punk and you have nobody on his level.

So now we get Rock vs Cena 2 and the end is 100% known unlike last year, Cena wins, we go back to 2 years ago, and you have nobody on Cena's level on the roster besides Punk because you only tried to build 1 new
superstar that whole time and then you had him lose 100 times in a row and get thrown out of the Rumble clean.

But what could have happened instead?

Would Punk now at 500 days vs Rock at WM not have drawn huge as well? Why did we blow that wad at the Rumble and make WM so predictable?

Wouldn't elimination chamber be way more exciting if Punk was champ heading into it and the belt could go to a bunch of guys before wrestlemania? Good luck selling that ppv now.

What if Punk at 500 days took on Undertaker at WM in the biggest streak vs streak ever. Wouldn't Rock vs Cena 2 sell just as well without the title? It's not like the surprise of who will win is the selling point.

What if Ryback had dethroned Punk instead at Royal Rumble. Would he not have been a huge superstar for ending that streak. He would basically be as big with young fans as Goldberg ever was. I wouldn't like this plan, but you have to think about the future.

What if Punk just beat Rock? Sure you lose the allure of having Rock at WM, and maybe it hurts buy rates this year, but what about the future. You have solidified Punk as top 5 all time with that win, bringing him to his 2nd straight WM as champ. At that point he could lose to Cena or Ryback, or anyone you want and it is HUGE.

Instead they went the vanilla route we all saw coming in July when Rock announced his plans. WM will sell what they expect it to, and the roster will continue being Cena, Punk and nobody else. Punks streak will be useless in the long term and not 1 new mega star was built the entire time.

Only thing I don't think you can do is take Ryback to Mania as your champ. Mania is their one chance all year to draw casual fans back in and many aren't going to recognize his name.

But Punk is a different story. They easily could've taken him to Mania as the champ and put him against Taker in a "Title vs Streak" match that would've drawn huge. Also, you're right in that there's no reason you couldn't have done another Cena/Rock match without the title.

But he (or someone built to his level) should have been the one to beat Punk.

Nothing makes a superstar babyface like beating the heel nobody can beat, it goes back to the dawn of professional wrestling as the ultimate way to build a star.

_____________________________________________________________________________
When all else fails, say my name.

I really don't care about seeing dolph ziggler or that juice head ryback dude even a little bit

He was basically saying WWE is a business, and they make their money from the casual, non-smark fan who really doesn't give a shit how many times you saw Punk v. Danielson in ROH or what kind of moveset Dean Ambroise has. WWE is entertainment first and The Rock and John Cena have more entertainment value in their left leg than half the guys the smarks say deserve to be in the spotlight.

I was just further clarifying

presumably we're getting:

- Rock v Cena 2 (WWE Title)
- CM Punk v Undertaker
- Triple H v Brock Lesnar 2
- Chris Jericho v Dolph Ziggler

say what you want about how we got there, but that's a really strong start.

From there I'd like to find a way to get Big Show v Randy Orton. If Big Show can beat Del Rio and Orton wins a shot in the chamber? That's a feasible path to get there and I think they'd give you a really good match.

Cena is winning the belt back from Rock that seems pretty obvious.

Punk vs Taker with no title on the line is worthless, Punk loses to taker again, I give him a 0% chance of ending taker's streak at this point.

Lesnar vs HHH 2? Really? What a waste of Lesnar this whole time, imagine if Lesnar won the rumble and we got Lesnar vs Rock at Rumble.

Ziggler vs Jericho is a good match

What about the SD title though? Del Rio vs big Show again? Orton vs Del Rio? It's like they forgot SD existed.

Lets his character go back to being an outsider, which is the essence of the character anyway. He's got his heel stable set up, and now he can just go around making himself as hated as possible. That's a good situation.

He can't have it forever

I mean read my earlier post, there are just 100 better scenarios or ways to have him lose the belt.

My little dude is seriously pissed with WWE, LOL. Ryback is one of his favorite wrestlers, and he actually cried a little bit when Cena won the Rumble. Then when Rock won the strap, his little 7 year old head put it all together, "so Dad, John Cena is gonna fight the Rock at Wrestlemania and win the WWE championship? I am so TIRED of John Cena!!!"

From the mouths of babes, WWE.....



You gon' live forever
Whether you want to or not
Some of us gon' end up holy
Some of us gon' end up hot.....

.

The Rock is lame for coming back and doing this... He stands in the way of other wrestlers progress... Punk should quit and so should a lot of other wrestlers...

I'm sorry, but it's 2013 and The Rock is the champ... That's wack...

Punk just had it for 430 days or something, so he has nothing to complain about. Nobody gets runs like that post-80's.

There's literally nobody on the roster that I really want to see as champion, or that I'm mad about them not getting a run. They've all either been champion enough(Cena, Orton, Big Show, Rey - once was enough) or they're just boring or flat out suck. Ziggler is the only one who I can see being a champ after being built more. Nobody else. Actually, I want Jericho to get a run and he's the same situation as The Rock pretty much....part timer.

Roster does not suck at all.

-Punk should carry the strap, but is so big that he might have reached Cena "I don't need the title to be the man" levels.
-Daniel Bryan should be a star and is so over its ridiculous
-Ziggler should be a star
-Dean Ambrose deserves a big push.
-Cesaro and Wade Barrett deserve to be in the spotlight.
-Big Show is finally being used to his full potential. This character works, much like Mark Henry in 2011, speaking of which, Mark Henry is coming back.
-Sheamus, as much as he sucks as a character, is a beast in the ring and deserves to be a main eventer.

The roster isn't weak, the writing is just lazy. 12 month schedule, but Vince would rather sacrafice character building and pushing new guys for the short term buzz/dollars of a star studded Wrestlemania.

Punk just had the title forever though.

Bryan, I do like.

Sheamus sucks IMO. Boring. I've never enjoyed anything he's done.

Haven't seen Ambrose wrestle yet, so I can't comment.

Big Show is no different than he's ever been to me. Not someone I want to see in the title picture.

Ziggler, Barrett, and Cesaro have potential, I agree. None of them have been built enough for the title yet though or have done anything all that great. Ziggler's getting close, he just needs a good build.

At the present moment, there's not one of those guys who I really think should be champion. Bryan and Ziggler could get there soon, Punk just had it. Nobody else is ready right now.

>Punk just had the title forever though.

He's on level now. He doesn't need the title anymore to be a major player to center a show around.

>Bryan, I do like.
>
>Sheamus sucks IMO. Boring. I've never enjoyed anything he's
>done.

Man, I'm sorry to hear you say that. He's fucking legit in ring. I agree his character is weak; he needs to be edgier and he's too jokey-joke IMO... but his ring work is superb. He's one of the best big men in a generation, a Hoss Fight superstar. He puts on excellent matches. I challenge you to give him an open minded shot and watch him in ring. He's a worker.

>Haven't seen Ambrose wrestle yet, so I can't comment.

He oozes charisma. He's got that HBK circa OG DX swag.

>Big Show is no different than he's ever been to me. Not
>someone I want to see in the title picture.

Nah he's being used very well right now. Can't agree there.

>Ziggler, Barrett, and Cesaro have potential, I agree. None of
>them have been built enough for the title yet though or have
>done anything all that great. Ziggler's getting close, he
>just needs a good build.

Nah, Ziggler's there. He doesn't need a build any longer- they need to throw his ass into the title picture and let him run with it for like 6 months. He's ready for that picture. Cesaro is a legit beast in-ring and merely needs the right face to work with. A program with Daniel Bryan would be amazing.

>At the present moment, there's not one of those guys who I
>really think should be champion. Bryan and Ziggler could get
>there soon, Punk just had it. Nobody else is ready right
>now.

Who else do we need? Bryan and Ziggler are there. They're ready. They just need the actual spotlight for awhile to prove it. There is no "could get there" with those two. They're ready. Ziggler's had two years worth of flirtations with the top of the card and his ring work is second to none right now.

His promos are always fire, his ring attire, mannerisms, everything is on point. Right down to the way he slides across the ring apron and everything. His entrance is dope, mic work is dope, he's got the dime side piece, a beastly body guard, he bumps like HBK and Flair, I mean, what else does he need? He's there. I think you're a bit jaded. This current crop is damn good, they're just not getting the light.

For these guys to 'get there', Vince simply needs to put them there and have some patience.

Actually, fuck it. Give me Cesaro/Show. He's legit strong enough to give it a go, and he even adapts Swiss Death to a top rope move when he's up against bigger guys.

And his shine rubs off on those who get booked with him. I guarantee Punk has no problem with dropping the title to Rock last night, because Rock is a guy worthy of dropping it to. Doesn't hurt Punk's legacy, the PPV probably did great business, and plus, having Rock in the picture for the next couple of months is an opportunity to have him help legitimize some of the younger guys, in matches, but also just with promos.

>And his shine rubs off on those who get booked with him.

Rock/Punk was an incredible match. I even dig the finish, much as people seem to hate it. That's good for business because the actual match surpassed the hype. Both guys showed their ass. This firmly establishes Punk as a Pantheon-level player. It's a fitting way to end a legit title reign. He lost to The Great One in a match where the Rock BROUGHT IT. So yeah, that rub actually works here.

Rock/Cena? Good for buyrates and nothing else. Cena doesn't get a rub because he's already the Hogan of this generation. He's already a mainstream crossover star. He's already cemented his legacy. There's no rub to be had and everything about this feud is predictable. It raised buyrates, but what long term good is done? Not much. Short term, obviously.

The rub works with Punk. It works with Ziggler. Bryan. Guys like that who are legitimately this generations best, and have the talent to reach a higher plain like Punk has.

>guarantee Punk has no problem with dropping the title to Rock
>last night, because Rock is a guy worthy of dropping it to.
>Doesn't hurt Punk's legacy

Agreed. The match not only doesn't hurt Punk's legacy, it solidifies it.

>the PPV probably did great
>business, and plus, having Rock in the picture for the next
>couple of months

Agreed.

>is an opportunity to have him help legitimize
>some of the younger guys, in matches, but also just with
>promos.

Here's the problem: He won't be used to legitimize anyone. He'll be used to put the title back on Cena and nothing more. The only potential use I see would be with The Shield, but I doubt that's really in the cards in a significant way.

A rising tide does lift all boats, but the truth is nobody is being elevated with this and that's a shame. If they really wanted to make this matter, Ziggler would have cashed in on Rock last night and we'd have a Rock/Cena/Ziggler Triple Threat to headline Mania.

with about 5 minutes of solid action in between.

>Rock/Cena? Good for buyrates and nothing else. Cena doesn't
>get a rub because he's already the Hogan of this generation.
>He's already a mainstream crossover star. He's already
>cemented his legacy. There's no rub to be had and everything
>about this feud is predictable. It raised buyrates, but what
>long term good is done? Not much. Short term, obviously.

No doubt about it. But I'm hoping...

>Here's the problem: He won't be used to legitimize anyone.
>He'll be used to put the title back on Cena and nothing more.
>The only potential use I see would be with The Shield, but I
>doubt that's really in the cards in a significant way.

...that it won't happen that way. But I see your point.

>A rising tide does lift all boats, but the truth is nobody is
>being elevated with this and that's a shame. If they really
>wanted to make this matter, Ziggler would have cashed in on
>Rock last night and we'd have a Rock/Cena/Ziggler Triple
>Threat to headline Mania.

Yeah, but I like going back to a Ziggler/Jericho program. There's more good matches to be had there.

Point being?

Two years ago, Punk was so far away from Rock. He was nothing more than a guy with potential. They gave him the ball and let him run with it, and what happened? They gave him an honest push, some creative control, and what happened? They used him as the vehicle to break Ryback into a legit star, a platform to raise The Shield, an amazing Muse for The Rock, and ultimately, a solid redemption story for Cena. Add to that a title reign that actually meant something for the first time in ages that added tremendous weight to the titles importance.

All five of those things could have happened without Punk. With him, however, those things have all become intriguing, artfully accomplished milestones. He showed he belonged. He went out and snatched respect out of the hands of pretty much everyone involved in pro wrestling, from Vince to down to the fans. He took it.

Still, two years ago, he was so far away from Rock. Now he's a legit entity. Is he on level though? No, of course not; The Rock was and is lightning in a bottle. Hogan, Rock, Austin, are arguably the biggest names to ever hit pro wrestling and nothing else really comes close. Cena is in that mold, to be sure, but he's something a shade below that level. It's asking more than is reasonable for anyone to be on that level. That's the stratosphere. Sure, you have your great technicians, the guys that are truly their superiors in terms of their actual in ring, big match abilities- HBK, Flair, Bret, Angle, Benoit, Guerrero, etc.

Truth be told? Those guys aren't even on par with Savage, who may well be the perfect blend of in ring talent+persona and mainstream marketability in a way nobody else I named quite meets. Still, Rock, Austin, and Hogan are Stratosphere Superstars. Game changers. It's unreasonable to expect anyone to hit that mark because they are flukes- the right guys in the right place at the right time with the right opportunity. You don't replicate that.

All snark aside, that's the one major issue I have with your perspective on the state of things today. You look at Rock and Austin as the bar, and anyone who doesn't measure up to that is boring, not good enough, etc. Your standard of quality sits at 'Phenomenal', as though the fact that the list of guys to meet that mark in the last three decades can't be counted on one hand.

Ziggler is ready for that push. He's ready to be given the opportunity to try his hand as an Alpha Dog, same as punk was before he sat on that ramp and talked that good shit for 10 minutes. Punk wasn't anything like what he is now; he was merely a guy who needed a shot to prove himself, and he did.

Guys have to be given the shot to run with the ball. It's easy to say they aren't on level with Rock, because literally nobody but two other guys are on that level. That's like making Michael Jordan the standard for a good basketball player. The Rock isn't the standard, he's the exception to the rule, and using him as the measuring stick for anyone is unfair. Perhaps Dolph will wind up a spectacular failure and be just another guy to hold a title for a little while, but I doubt it- and even if he did, he'd still have had a chance to prove himself before people say he's not there.

And every time Rock comes on Raw, there are more people that watch the show that wouldn't have watched otherwise. That gives the other guys exposure. Ever since Rock and Lesnar has come back last year, PPV buyrates - which are the biggest moneymaking shows for WWE, so it's they're kinda important - have been up from the previous year.

Raw's rating on Monday? A 3.7. It hasn't been that high since the 1,000th episode of Raw...featuring who in the main angle of that show? The Rock.
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My point was the real money is in using Rock to solidify stars other than Cena. You know, like we just saw with Punk. There are other guys he could be used to enhance their presence in more direct way, not just by happening to be booked on the same show.

Rock and Cena or just the Rock or Brock showing up his nothing more than manipulating the ratings. It's not a true reflection of the audience. You get some spikes in interest, but long term you haven't made people care enough about your less established stars. You haven't Made any new superstars, you haven't taken anyone to a higher plain, you've merely manipulated ratings and garnered additional mainstream interest for a night.

What has more value in the long run- a hot shot feud with a guy whose legacy is already firmly established, or elevating a younger guy into that spot? There's money, and there's smart money. Rock/Cena II is not smart money because it doesn't make anyone new. Rock/Ziggler, Rock/Ryback... or Brock/Ryback for that matter... further pushes those guys UP the ladder and UP in the minds of those casual fan who otherwise might not be watching.

and really help DZ get better on the mic, too. BUT, his Wrestlemania story pretty much has to culminate in the WHC being that he's Mr. Money in the Bank Blue, and that's currently being used for a superb program between Show and Del Rio.

Have him beat Del Rio clean and then cash in the briefcase on Cena at Mania. Further solidify his stature by having him defend each belt seperately, and give him feuds for each title.

With Big E and AJ at his side, that makes it a plausible story and one that can hold through to SS where he's booked to drop one title but retain the other.

He obviously can't hold them both for a year or whatever, but a 4 month run with both belts will catapult him. He's ready for that main event title push and I hope they hit the button at Mania. His mic skills are top notch, he's just not a catch phrase king or a funny guy. He's on that early Sherri era HBK steeze on the mic, in a good way.

You long for the good ol' days and have no context or perspective in how you view this current crop. Everyone is trash to you. Ryback could do just fine with Brock.

Anyhow, you could tell a compelling story with these two. Just book it like the basic outline of Rocky III.

The firts match could be a competitive squash. Ryback gets a few shots in, but Brock dominates a short match or even a fight segment.

Why?

Because Brock is here to show him what a real monster looks like, so he does. And that makes Ryback dig deeper. He loses his sauce for a minute, and everyone attacks because they think he's vulnerable. He beats people but they still taunt him over the loss to Brock. So Ryback starts doubting himself. Make it a psychological block he has to overcome or whatever, but in the end, Brock awakens a new level, something harder and stronger and more fierce in Ryback.

So you sell the next match or two by showing how Ryback builds himself into a bigger, badder machine, beating Brock in a ruthless HIC match.

Or, you just book Ryback to be Brocks equal. You make that shit Clash of The Titans. You make sure they go toe to toe in the baddest hossfight we've ever seen. It's not as compelling a story, but it works just as well to build Ryback into the beast they want him to be.

The key is to make it a war, an all out brawl. It's not a technical masterpiece, but so long as you emphasize the brutality of such a match, the payoff is huge and you've pushed a new star to a new level.

The Miz is liquid duck feces. Del Rio is painfully boring. Kofi Kingston is corny, and Sheamus is even cornier. These are the same four guys they keep trotting out there who go nowhere and do nothing of note.

And still; I'm a Damien Sandow mark. I can't wait to see where the Shield goes over the next year. Ziggler is always a great watch and I was the first person here to compare him to Kurt Angle. I've loved the Team Hell No stuff. There's a lot more that I like than I don't like.

That being said, I don't think Ryback is ready for the strap or for Brock Lesnar especially. Brock pulverized the typically invulnerable John Cena last year, he's the most athletic WWE champion ever. I feel that putting Ryback in there with Lesnar would be a psychological mismatch from a fan's perspective and even just visually you'd find that Ryback isn't nearly as big as Lesnar. I'd buy Punk and Orton as legitimate foils for Lesnar before I would Ryback easily.

>The Miz is liquid duck feces.

Since Mania he's been just that. Well, his program with R Truth was nice until the Cena feud. He also hasn't outgrown his painfully amateur mannerisms.

>Del een Rio is painfully boring.

I like him as a face, personally. I loved his initially vicious heel run but he did get boring. His current program with Show is very good though.

>Kofi Kingston is corny

Agreed. I liked his run vs Legacy but that was it. He still wows from time to time, though his chair jumping at Rumble jumped the shark. His occasionally exciting performances don't make up for his bland persona and generally boring ring work. OMG, ANOTHER REALLY HIGH JUMPING PUNCH!! just doesn't cut it with me.

>Sheamus is even cornier.

Nah. He's legit as fuck in ring. His persona is cheesy and needs work, I admit. In ring, he may well be their best big man and I'm not so sure it's close. His program with show was damn near a clinic on how to do a program with two massive brawlers.

>And still; I'm a Damien Sandow mark. I can't wait to see where
>the Shield goes over the next year. Ziggler is always a great
>watch and I was the first person here to compare him to Kurt
>Angle.

Ziggler is what prompted my response. He can hang with anyone, The Rock included. I guarantee he'd prove it were he given the chance. He's ready for that shot right today and has been for awhile- but he still needs that shot to prove it. I think that you underestimate him, even as you express your admiration. I thought the Angle thing was a stretch because I consider Angle during his relatively brief WWE run to be one of the all time greats.

>That being said, I don't think Ryback is ready for the strap
>or for Brock Lesnar especially. Brock pulverized the typically
>invulnerable John Cena last year, he's the most athletic WWE
>champion ever. I feel that putting Ryback in there with Lesnar
>would be a psychological mismatch from a fan's perspective and
>even just visually you'd find that Ryback isn't nearly as big
>as Lesnar.

That's why I proposed the 'Rocky 3' story arc. It fits perfectly IMO; Ryback is pretty much invincible against the WWE regulars, so when he meets a true monster in Brock, he sees how outclassed he is. You run with his determination to reach that level and do it.

I'd buy Punk and Orton as legitimate foils for
>Lesnar before I would Ryback easily.

Those two are much more established, obviously, and have proven they can pull off excellent programs with anyone. I argue Ryback from a money standpoint though- he would get a tremendous rub from a program with Brock that would elevate him a few notches. He's a made man right now, but he still has room to grow. It's all in the story though, and IMO my concept for that is an excellent one.

Rock is there to bring an audience to that company. There's no bigger audience you can draw to it than Rock/Cena.

Rock is only there for a limited time, so why waste him with guys that are just going to be overshadowed? Rock is so head and shoulders above anyone in that company that if you try to match them up with him they'll look like amateurs.

WWE barely has time to set up feuds with Cena and Punk. Why would Rock waste his time having feuds with guys he knows the fans will never care about in a feud? Rock with Ziggler or Rock with Bryan or Ryback would do nothing but expose those guys. You're talking about one of the top 5 personalities in wrestling over the last 25 years; they can't hang in that kind of spotlight, especially in the positions that they are in now. Rock/Cena makes the most sense. It's the biggest moneymaker in the company over the last 3 years. It makes no sense to put Rock with someone else and leave money sitting on the table with Cena

The issue with the undercard guys isn't Rock; the issue is that WWE has been shitty with building guys up to be stars over the past 10 years. They sorta succeeded with Ryback, but losing to Punk over and over again has hurt his momentum (getting laid out Monday night didn't help either). Ziggler has jobbed over and over again. He beats Cena on PPV and nobody still cares. You're going to then place him in a feud with Rock? Ok.
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Almost

>Rock is there to bring an audience to that company. There's
>no bigger audience you can draw to it than Rock/Cena.

Short term money, not long term money, and that's the problem.

>Rock is so head
>and shoulders above anyone in that company that if you try to
>match them up with him they'll look like amateurs.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. He would elevate them.

>Why
>would Rock waste his time having feuds with guys he knows the
>fans will never care about in a feud?
>Rock with Ziggler or
>Rock with Bryan or Ryback would do nothing but expose those
>guys.

Expose what, exactly? The exceptional ring work of Dolph and Bryan would be exposed? Really? If anything, he'd carry Ryback, who'd have few words and speak with his hands anyways. You're just old and curmudgeonly. Guys like you are why guys can't get out from under the old guards shadow.

You're talking about one of the top 5 personalities in
>wrestling over the last 25 years; they can't hang in that kind
>of spotlight, especially in the positions that they are in
>now.

Lol. Biggest star ever, but he can't elevate anyone. Gotcha. Do you realize how dumb that sounds? That's the whole point of matching those guys with someone like him. Yes, they'd do just fine in that spotlight if given the opportunity. Dolph and Bryan and Ryback are all over in different ways and the fans would respond to them in a feud with Rock. Dolph would make himself intensely hated. Bryan's quirks would work similarly to Kurt Angle, and Ryback would bring a physical intensity nobody outside of Brock could bring in a match with Brock. It would work well with all three guys. You're old and lack any perspective or insight or outside the box thinking with this generation. You're Vince McMahon.

>Rock/Cena makes the most sense. It's the biggest
>moneymaker in the company over the last 3 years. It makes no
>sense to put Rock with someone else and leave money sitting on
>the table with Cena

No, it creates money by elevating stars to a higher level for the long term. Long money is smart money, not short money.

>The issue with the undercard guys isn't Rock

I didn't say that though.

>that WWE has been shitty with building guys up to be stars
>over the past 10 years.

...Which is why you use a guy like Rock help build them. It's not rocket science.

>They sorta succeeded with Ryback, but
>losing to Punk over and over again has hurt his momentum
>(getting laid out Monday night didn't help either).

Yes, the fans are so caught up in that. That's smark talk and nothing more. He's fine.

Ziggler
>has jobbed over and over again. He beats Cena on PPV and
>nobody still cares. You're going to then place him in a feud
>with Rock? Ok.

People care. He puts guys over and people are always into his matches. You're the "It's Still Real To Me, Dammit!" guy, aren't you? You have to be with such a paltry excuse for logic. You still think wins and losses mean shit. How many times did HBK get the shit kicked out of him and lose? Hell, his last two big time matches were just that. No, Dolph is getting a divided crowd these days and it's because his ring work is fucking great.

Look, you're not a creative guy. You can't see the forest for the trees. Forward thinking that doesn't merely run to the easiest solution isn't a strong point with you. It's ok. There's no shame in that, Hoss, so go home, throw on some USWA Wrasslin' tapes and watch Jerry Lawler enthrall simple-minded, backwoods yokels with his flying fist drop of doom.

It hinders the potential of these discussions and its just lame.

You run and call out everyone who talks shit on these boards and then get at me. He has shitty ideas and I told him as much.

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshh4G7M0mcx0C4fe1Wk

...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ly1UTgiBXM

"If you wanna help us, fine. Sit down with your kids and make 'em study at night...otherwise, shoot THIS mothaf*cka!" (c) Morgan Freeman,

torrie and stacy can fight for 2 and 3

lord i still remember them table promos
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xiew9l_trish-stratus-every-table-segment-raw-4-24-2000_sport#.UQdo8nft2uI

>torrie and stacy can fight for 2 and 3
>
>lord i still remember them table promos
>http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xiew9l_trish-stratus-every-table-segment-raw-4-24-2000_sport#.UQdo8nft2uI

She was so right to me. And I had forgotten all about those table segments. Just more confirmation. Her, Mickie James, and Velvet Sky...all excellent.

Jimaveli

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww94Eyhb54Q
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I remember those promos, basically egging the Dudleyz to put T&A (and Trish) through that table.

Hell of an ending. I can't see next week not having excellent ratings.

Oh and Vince is fucking huge. I forget how big he is sometimes.

heralded as a legit monster in that company to go to WWE to dress up in women's clothes for comedy skits.

Especially on the heels of the best wrestling PPV that was has been made in years (Wrestle Kingdom VII).
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I'm sure he was a beast in Japan under the sensibilities of that audience, but literally nothing about him is appealing here. It's not even the writing; he just looks like a cheap ass early 90's character, and not in a good way. Reminds me of Bastion Booger.

Doesn't make a world of sense. I mean it's cool he wrestled in Japan I guess, but this WWE stuff is all about personality and Tensai literally shows none.

in recent memory. The Dancing segment, Ryback make me laugh, painful Kane and D.Bry shit, I just wasn't a fan of this one at all. The ending, EPIC. The rest, boooooooo

I barely got to see the rest, outside of a few segments. I saw show tape up and beat down Del Rio and Ricardo and that was dope though. Anyhow, my DVR was acting all kinds of weird but that ending was amazing.

seeing what they do with this Heyman angle, especially with Brock signing a new 2 year contract

but she would moonlight as his valet for big main event matches? I remember thinking how cool that was. They successfully managed to tell two different stories with the same cast of characters, like they all existed in the same macro universe but were living their own micro lives all the while.

I'd like to see that attempted here, not an obvious stable but just a lot of very powerful heels who take their individual cues from Heyman. I think it would be really cool if Lesnar and Punk and the Shield are never seen altogether but they're all individually seen with Heyman.

I'd still love a stable, even if it's merely a loose-knit (Dangerous!) alliance.

pwtorch.com:

>WWE NEWS: Has locker-room resentment toward The Rock faded? Ziggler says his view has changed

By James Caldwell, PWTorch assistant editor
Jan 30, 2013 - 9:25:37 AM - Printer Friendly Page

At least publicly, so-called "locker room resentment" toward The Rock has faded during Rock's third consecutive WrestleMania Season with WWE.

During an Australian radio interview promoting WWE's upcoming tour, Dolph Ziggler offered a revised view that Rock's return means "more eyes on WWE, which means more eyes on me."

Asked if he thinks Rock's seasonal involvement hurts the development of full-time stars, Ziggler said, "I used to - a year or two ago, I would be like, 'Ah, Rock is back for a month to take all the big spots, right?' No.

"He is back to bring more eyes to WWE than maybe wouldn't have been on them. The whole thing is to get a new audience to cross over and enjoy our show. In the long run, him being in that spot and coming back and giving back to WWE will bring - hopefully - lots of eyes who normally wouldn't see it.

"They go, 'Hey, I'm going to watch WrestleMania for The Rock. Oh, Dolph Ziggler stole the show. I'm going to watch next Monday when Rock isn't around.'"

Part of what drove locker-room resentment was the perception that Rock was off in Hollywood doing B or C-Level movies as a wannabe movie star. Now that Rock is a proven box-office draw and is involved in some major movie projects, WWE stars are taking him more seriously.

"We used to be like, 'Oh, he's in a couple of movies, he's coming back.' But, he's a huge star," Ziggler said. "It's great for WWE and just another feather in his cap for him."

____________________________________________________________________________
I like whatever The Media™ tells me to like.

I saw him at an indie show a couple months ago in Brooklyn. It was a great show held in a catholic school gymnasium. The Godfather entered with his "Ho Train" made up of the girl's basketball team from that high school and a couple of their mothers. It seemed like their families were there to, and nobody seemed offended.

It's more etherous on video than in print...worth clicking the link.

http://www.wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2013/0131/560023/bret-hart-shoots-on-triple-h-calls-him-overrated/

Wrestle Talk TV Extra recently interviewed Bret "The Hitman" Hart, who was critical of Triple H. Here is what Hart said about "The Game":

"I have a certain amount of respect for Triple H. I remember when he first came in, I remember commenting on stuff that he did. Because I'd usually give wrestlers my thoughts and try to help them on stuff... Triple H has always been a good wrestler. But great? What is he now, a 1,000 time world champion? How great really is he?

"I look at Punk... I can look at certain wrestlers and I go, this guy is an innovator. Like a Rey Mysterio, who's done stuff that no one has ever thought of before. Punk has done stuff -- really unique moves and you go, 'gee I've never seen anything like that before.' They innovate all the time, and they create new sequences and moves and things.

"Then you look at someone like Triple H. When I look at him -- he's always had a good look as far as his body went -- he always had a pretty muscular physique. But you look at someone like Hunter and you wonder, what has he really done. One move that he ever created that nobody ever saw before or some highspots or an idea for a match... He's mostly a guy that just showed up and they made him. He's always been a decent wrestler -- I would consider him a good wrestler and pretty talented. But great? I don't know, I don't think so.

"What has he ever done that's great? He's never had a great match, I don't think ever. Whenever I look at Triple H's matches, including the last one he had with Undertaker -- and I don't really mean it as a knock -- but I told myself before I watched it because I'm trying to like Paul now these days, that I want to see him do something to make me think he's got greatness in him.

Paul is excellent wrestler. He delivers quality matches, good promos, and always has. Rey Mysterio hasn't really been worth watching since he left WCW to be honest. He's been boring as can be. Punks a legit innovator though.

Paul is excellent wrestler. He delivers quality matches, good promos, and always has. Rey Mysterio hasn't really been worth watching since he left WCW to be honest. He's been boring as can be. Punks a legit innovator though.

If anything hate HHH for his spotlight hogging, but his ability to carry a match and feud has always been top notch.

Bret? *LOL* Ok.
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LOL suggests it's some landslide that isn't even close in favor of Bret. It's actually a reasonable debate, especially when you consider Paul worked in one of the most talent rich eras ever. Now, the matches Bret could have had with the likes of Angle, Guerrero, Benoit, Jericho, and Edge, all in their prime, to say nothing of a rejuvenated HBK, would have been the stuff of legend. Still, this is an actual debate worth having. LOLing at the suggestion is bullshit and further proof you're an old man with antiquated perspective.

HHH has never been considered one of the best workers in the world. Ever. Bret was considered the best in the U.S. from 92-95, and he was doing it with a TERRIBLE WWE roster.

Debates are worth having when you actually have an argument. This is not one of them.
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Funny thing is, HHH gets "credit" for that Evolution 2002-04 era now.....when in reality EVERYONE hated that shit back then. And not hated it on some "he's the heel" shit, but on some "this guy sucks dick and is fucking boring" shit.

He was a good heel in 2000. He was never that good of a wrestler. Not even close to in Bret's league.

Paul gets a lot of hate for marrying the Bosses Daughter, and people like to forget he was routinely touted as that generations Ric Flair by major publications. I don't value such things in my assessments, but since people like Expertise over here think they're valid arguments that mean something, I figured it appropriate to include. You're both in denial.

It's a factor, but people still view Hogan in the 80s as one of the greatest ever.

Cena is going to go down as an all time great like it or not

These guys will not be remembered as the greatest because of their wrestling abilities.

If someone argues HHH is above Bret Hart in history it doesn't have to mean HHH was a better wrestler than Bret Hart

And that's what Bret was saying.

Accomplishments? Yeah, HHH has him beat (sorta). But Bret Hart wrestles circles around HHH.
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So, you think Bret being one of the best workers in the world and best in the US during what you acknowledge to be pretty shit time for the WWE actually helps? No, it hurts your argument. Guys like Eddie, Benoit, and Angle are EASILY Bret's equal, and arguably better. Shawn is his superior, much as I'm sure it would kill you to admit it.

The argument that Paul was never considered the best in the world just doesn't hold up, especially considering the immense level of talent he was working with at the time. It's not about who was ranked where at what time; it's about the actual quality of work that was done in comparison. You're blind and in denial if you think Paul didn't turn in some amazing work. I'm sure you think The Lawler feud was an in-ring masterpiece, or his work with The Mountie, or Doink. lol. Come on. Let's not act like he was out there with the best, night in and night out and holding his own.

Nope, his best work came when he had a true peer- Hennig, Owen, and Michaels, for example. Guys who could easily stake an arguable claim to the Best In The World title. Curt and Shawn were easily on par with Bret. He had a few technicians to work with, and a lot of crap. Taker was not the Taker of the last decade. Diesel? Gimme a break.

Brets best work vs Paul's best work is an interesting discussion, but your clinging to logical fallacies. Get an argument with some weight and get back to me.

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so you can use work rate, others may use accomplishments, others may use just a gut feeling and how they remember guys.

Point is my thought that some people will consider HHH better than Bret in history stands.

*edit* I meant this as a reply to your other post about work-rate but still works here

I would expect most to regard Bret as better.

It's more those who came around in the Attitude Era or later that may regard HHH more highly.

I just don't see any area where HHH was better than Bret. Being a better heel is even arguable, though Bret didn't spend much time as one. But when he did, he knocked it out of the park in '97. Bret's clearly a much better face, clearly a better worker, was at a top level for much longer(HHH may have been pushed for a long time, but for much of that he really wasn't good....the 06-beyond face stuff he was largely horrible), more memorable matches......it's just not close IMO.

HHH = Jay-Z.....dope for a few years in the late 90's-early 00's.....on cruise control since and has largely reallybeen pretty blah and basic for the majority of his career, but gets credit for longevity even though it's not quality longevity. More of a business man/big name than an actual top performer for the last 10 years.

I'm not enamored with the guy but I'll admit that 1998-2001 HHH was more than good. Even if only for his matches against Mick Foley, which were amazing brawling spectacles.

I actually think the guy could have been the best bad guy of all time, but his post-Evolution/DX reunion with Shawn was annoying and immature and the prelude to swarmy, jokey faces like Sheamus.

That's a very strong resume against damn near anyone to be honest. His Taker match was awesome, and Bret can kick rocks with that nonsense. Everything about that match was amazing. Bret's just crotchety and bitter.

Just off the charts really. His program with Angle, his hell in a cell against Cactus Jack, the iron man against the Rock (train wreck ending aside), his WM 17 bout with Taker (maybe better than this most recent one), the two year war against a returning HBK, the WM 20 triple threat main event, and then breaking in Orton and Batista and to a lesser extant Cena later. A fabulous run, even objectively speaking.

My only legitimate gripe during this entire period was his WM 19 program with Booker. I wasn't even as much pissed about the pseudo racist promos as I was the fact that Booker was ready for that title and that a Booker T world heavy run would've been well received and never came to fruition.

>My only legitimate gripe during this entire period was his WM
>19 program with Booker. I wasn't even as much pissed about the
>pseudo racist promos as I was the fact that Booker was ready
>for that title and that a Booker T world heavy run would've
>been well received and never came to fruition.

when HHH was trying to be Ric Flair (even more than his Terra Ryzing days)... down to the hair. It really sucked and didn't fit him at all. And that WM19 shit was just absolutely shameful. Can't remember if the Kane program with the "Katie Vick" crap was in that era, but it was pretty horrible as well.

HHH is a good worker. He isn't great; there are numerous guys that have come down the pike during his time that are better than him, and he was never the best worker in the company at any given time, especially when Shawn, Angle, Benoit, Rey and Austin were there.

Has HHH had a match that nobody will forget? I guess some won't forget the HITC match where he sent Mick Foley into retirement (that match legitimized him), and the two Taker matches. But that wasn't because they were technically sound matches. I think the two Taker matches were well choreographed, but it wasn't as if there were moves put together that were just unbelievable. And it's telling for how great everyone says that match was, four matches this year was voted better than that one in the Wrestling Observer Awards (Tanahashi/Suzuki, Okada/Naito, Richards/Elgin, Tanahashi/Okada).

HHH has great matches with guys that are considered great workers (well, minus Batista; that was a great feud). But the issue here is, he's the "B" guy in those matches, not the "A" that's carrying the load. Hell; Bret Hart was carrying Kevin Nash and Scott Hall into four star matches, and the ones he had with Shawn Michaels were considered some of the greatest ever.

HHH is a Hall of Famer (I mean WON, not WWE) not due to his ring work - although it's a plus - but due to the mark he's placed on WWE, and to an extent the sport, for better or worse.
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>he was never the best worker in the company at
>any given time

This doesn't have anything to do with whether or not his body of work measures up. It literally has no bearing whatsoever. The work is what matters, not whether or not he's ranked #1.

>especially when Shawn, Angle, Benoit, Rey and
>Austin were there.

Austin stopped being in that class after he beat Shawn. He was increasingly a brawler after that and rarely looked back. Based on your standards, he's an average worker since he became The Man. And Rey was never in that class in WWE. WCW, yes. His WWE iteration is a VERY pale shadow of that. He became a caricature of THAT Rey.

>But that wasn't because they were technically sound
>matches.

The strong implication here is that a great match that's not technically sound is somehow less than, and that's about as disingenuous as it gets. There are different types of matches; A great match is a great match is a great match. End of story.

>I think the two Taker matches were well
>choreographed, but it wasn't as if there were moves put
>together that were just unbelievable.

The story on that last one was incredible, and a testament to all involved. You think a great match is all about awe-inspiring moves, but awe-inspiring spots and stories are equally valid.

>great everyone says that match was, four matches this year was
>voted better than that one in the Wrestling Observer Awards
>(Tanahashi/Suzuki, Okada/Naito, Richards/Elgin,
>Tanahashi/Okada).

Cool story, bro. I'm going out on a limb to say that at least three of those were Japanese matches, and honestly DGAF about what's going on over there.

>HHH has great matches with guys that are considered great
>workers (well, minus Batista; that was a great feud). But the
>issue here is, he's the "B" guy in those matches, not the "A"
>that's carrying the load. Hell; Bret Hart was carrying Kevin
>Nash and Scott Hall into four star matches, and the ones he
>had with Shawn Michaels were consider d some of the greatest
>ever.

LOL@4 star matches w/Nash. You're in fantasy land.

His neck injury ended up limiting what he could do in the ring and shortened his career. That happened at SummerSlam '97 and he won the belt at Mania in '98. There is an actual reason for his move to brawling besides becoming the main guy in the company.

I was off a little but you're right.

>Austin stopped being in that class after he beat Shawn. He was
>increasingly a brawler after that and rarely looked back.
>Based on your standards, he's an average worker since he
>became The Man. And Rey was never in that class in WWE. WCW,
>yes. His WWE iteration is a VERY pale shadow of that. He
>became a caricature of THAT Rey.

Filthy Animals Rey was poor.

behind Cena. Those masks sell like hotcakes, and he's their top star when they have their international tours. There was a reason why they put the belt on him, and it all didn't have to do with Eddie Guerrero's death.

Rey may not have the same workrate has he did when he was 23 years old due to injuries, but he could still work well, and guys loved working with him. He had great matches in WWE with Eddie, Batista, Edge, Chavo, etc. And when he did have that workrate, he was a revolutionary figure in the industry and one of the best workers of all time.
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How HHH compared to his peers at the time and in history is definitely related to his body of work. When Bret Hart was in there with the best in the company, his matches always delivered. Owen Hart, Davey Boy Smith, Mankind, Taker, Shawn, Austin...all of those matches delivered and then some. The matches with Shawn, Austin and Davey are considered some of the best of that decade, if not all time. And then he took guys like Hall, Nash (Hart vs. Diesel @ Survivor Series 95 was considered the best match Kevin Nash ever had), Bam Bam Bigelow, The Patriot, Piper, and had great matches with them too.

HHH has had GOOD matches with guys in his era, but not epic. Taker/HHH will never be considered better than Hart/Austin, which is widely considered to be the best WM match of all time (and lo and behold, it was a pier six brawl from start to finish, so that kills that "implication" you claimed I had). HHH had plenty of matches with Shawn, but how many of them will compare to the Iron Man Match Bret and Shawn had at WM 12? When HHH faced Angle or Benoit, did he ever have a match that was as good as the one Bret had with Owen, or even a Benoit match that was better than the Benoit match Bret had in WCW? Outside of Batista, who did HHH have a great match with that wasn't a guy that wasn't considered one of the best workers at the time?
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Yes, he had limits after the neck, but his 'WWE superman face' act had legs for quite a while. It is a tough role to carry because of the lack of suspense in the out-of-ring storytelling. The 'deck is stacked' in lame ways that everyone is smart enough to sniff out as 'I get it, but that's not going to work because it is Austin'. We see it with Cena all the time too. And then he lost to the Rock...

Moreso than that stuff...his work from WM 17 and on had a gang of strong matches...especially the paranoid heel stuff...those two matches he had with Benoit on back-to-back Raw and Smackdown were story-telling excellence and straight up physical. On Smackdown, Benoit was selling rib injuries (complete with wrap) and Austin casually tried to kill him via attacking his midsection. Front suplex on announcer table, etc. And Benoit must've German'd him 20 times over those 2 matches. Insane.

Austin was money with a bad neck and knees.

And the finisher festival matches with Rock were nice too. I liked all of their matches in all of their AJPW-light, tables involved in every big match like a video game, 'yeah, I kicked out of that too' glory.

And his WWE stuff before the neck? Hella nice. Him and Bret were on a roll.

Jimaveli

>>he was never the best worker in the company at
>>any given time
>
>This doesn't have anything to do with whether or not his body
>of work measures up. It literally has no bearing whatsoever.
>The work is what matters, not whether or not he's ranked #1.
>
>>especially when Shawn, Angle, Benoit, Rey and
>>Austin were there.
>
>Austin stopped being in that class after he beat Shawn. He was
>increasingly a brawler after that and rarely looked back.
>Based on your standards, he's an average worker since he
>became The Man. And Rey was never in that class in WWE. WCW,
>yes. His WWE iteration is a VERY pale shadow of that. He
>became a caricature of THAT Rey.
>
>>But that wasn't because they were technically sound
>>matches.
>
>The strong implication here is that a great match that's not
>technically sound is somehow less than, and that's about as
>disingenuous as it gets. There are different types of matches;
>A great match is a great match is a great match. End of story.
>
>
>>I think the two Taker matches were well
>>choreographed, but it wasn't as if there were moves put
>>together that were just unbelievable.
>
>The story on that last one was incredible, and a testament to
>all involved. You think a great match is all about
>awe-inspiring moves, but awe-inspiring spots and stories are
>equally valid.
>
>>great everyone says that match was, four matches this year
>was
>>voted better than that one in the Wrestling Observer Awards
>>(Tanahashi/Suzuki, Okada/Naito, Richards/Elgin,
>>Tanahashi/Okada).
>
>Cool story, bro. I'm going out on a limb to say that at least
>three of those were Japanese matches, and honestly DGAF about
>what's going on over there.
>
>>HHH has great matches with guys that are considered great
>>workers (well, minus Batista; that was a great feud). But
>the
>>issue here is, he's the "B" guy in those matches, not the
>"A"
>>that's carrying the load. Hell; Bret Hart was carrying Kevin
>>Nash and Scott Hall into four star matches, and the ones he
>>had with Shawn Michaels were consider d some of the greatest
>>ever.
>
>LOL@4 star matches w/Nash. You're in fantasy land.
>
>

how much success would he genuinelly have had if not for his association with Michaels & Nash, then going on to marry the boss's daughter. I do wonder if he would have had the same levels of success flying solo.

(I'm a Bret stan but even I can't agree that HHH had no classic matches - that's just an incorrect statement. What bugs me even more is that he's now back on excellent terms with WWE, why say something so ill-timed about your likely new boss. Bret's legacy is so important to him and HHH can just shut it down whenever he likes. It's not an intelligent thing to have done.)

>how much success would he genuinelly have had if not for his
>association with Michaels & Nash, then going on to marry the
>boss's daughter. I do wonder if he would have had the same
>levels of success flying solo.

First of all, it's a big 'what if'.
Politics is part of the business. End of discussion.
Guys get opportunities, but what they do with them is another story.
Example? Remember that big DX reunion? That was supposed to be a Rockers reunion. Marty couldn't get his shit together, so that lasted all of two matches.

The bottom line is Paul delivered. He could have been Shawn's best friend, married Steph, and still been the company hack. He wasn't. If DX doesn't happen like it does after Shawn goes down, WWF is in worse shape. It still had Austin/Rock/Foley, sure, but DX was still huge for them.

Wrestling is politics, but the only real critique to be given is whether or not you made the most of those opportunities. It's aburd to argue that Paul didn't do just that. This idea that having opportunity works against you is even more absurd.

Diesel likely goes the road of other early 90's big men without the Shawn rub, by the way. Hell, the entire NWO likely doesn't happen without the Shawn rub.

>(I'm a Bret stan but even I can't agree that HHH had no
>classic matches - that's just an incorrect statement. What
>bugs me even more is that he's now back on excellent terms
>with WWE, why say something so ill-timed about your likely new
>boss. Bret's legacy is so important to him and HHH can just
>shut it down whenever he likes. It's not an intelligent thing
>to have done.)

Always has been and probably always will be

HHH got shots that he would not have gotten without the Kliq or marrying Steph no doubt, but that didn't mean he was just given the career, he made it for himself given his opportunities.

Lots of wrestlers have been given every chance possible and still not been as big as they should have been.

but I do think that's a slightly romanticised perspective. (Only slightly though.)

IMO, the single biggest turning point moment of his career was when he stood in that ring with Michaels, Hall and Nash just before H&N's departure to WCW. Marks across the world took notice of him and DX probably wouldn't even exist if not for that single moment. I think it's undeniable he's been afforded opportunities but he's coincidentally or calculatingly aligned himself with people and situations that guaranteed success. By being aligned with them, he actually had more power behind the scenes than he had on camera.

All I'm saying is that if that's something he was going to be called on, there's a genuinely something to that.

I just want to stress that I'm only defending the 'what if' nature of my question, not specifically saying this is the gospel truth, just an opinion. You're right ultimately, in that he was handed an opportunity and made the absolute best of it like many many others haven't.

he was in line for the Austin push. He became the fall guy for the MSG breaking kayfabe incident and the King of the Ring push instead went to Stone Cold.

as I said earlier, DX probably wouldnt have existed if not for that moment and I'm sure Vince had to do taht begrudingly. HHH wielded a lot of power at that point amongst that crew and was still best friends with the champ at that point. It was like when Daniel Bryan had to get fired for the Nexus debut but his buzz was so high at that point, it was just a matter of biding his time.

HHH isn't "top 1000."

http://www.wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2013/0202/560085/bret-hart-continues-to-criticize-triple-h/

Arda Ocal (@arda_ocal) of The Score Television Network, Baltimore Sun and Layfield Report recently spoke with WWE Hall of Famer Bret "Hitman" Hart (@BretHart) following his critical comments about Triple H. Hart once again discussed Triple H's match with The Undertaker at WrestleMania 28 last year, while admitting that he didn't have much of a relationship with The Game.

"I said I'd give (Taker vs HHH at WrestleMania 28) a 4-out-of-10," Hart admitted. "I think that was generous. But you have to understand that Undertaker was hurt, so there were circumstances that I'm not privy to."

Hart went on to criticize Triple H as a wrestler, saying, "He's a decent wrestler. I wouldn't put him in the top 1000 great wrestlers. To me he was very mediocre. I never saw him contribute an idea in his life... I never saw any genius come out of Triple H, nor in any of his matches."

Hart was also asked if he ever gets sick of talking about the Montreal Screwjob. Hart replied, "sometimes in talking about it you get a new perspective on it."

He also said that it doesn't bother him that Shawn doesn't really remember the incident.

"It doesn't surprise me," Hart said. "Shawn had his problems back then."

Hart also had high praise for Alberto Del Rio and was accepting his new nickname, the "Canadian Del Rio." You can watch the full interview above.

I mean come on. That match was a 4? He's not top 1000? C'mon fam.

Some serious hate in Bret's heart.

Now even more than The Rock, HHH coasted SO MUCH off that energy he had between '99-01, when he broke free from DX and basically built himself up into one of the most hate-able heels in the business. The Ironman match with The Rock solidified him. In fact, HHH-Rock is probably an all-time wrestling feud.

Now "Ric Flair" wanna be and "I don't give a fuck, I just stuck it in Steph" HHH, I can see the misunderstanding of the lack of hype. He hit his apex in the years mentioned before and then just kind of sat on his laurels.

He had a couple of great matches outside of that period.

He wasn't much of an innovator, but he did well with the spotlight when he was allowed to have it. Just when he became "bigger than the business" is when he started to really suck, IMO

sandow and the prime ime players...ESPECIALLY darren young.


"If you wanna help us, fine. Sit down with your kids and make 'em study at night...otherwise, shoot THIS mothaf*cka!" (c) Morgan Freeman,

Don't get me wrong, I like Rhodes, but he is certainly not a star yet

people didn't give him a chance, said he was boring.
since then he's been solid in every angle they've put him in. good ring work, and good mic work
legacy
priceless
dashing
the ugly gimmick
he and goldust are about to start an angle
AND he's on a wwe truck.

he's one of the best they have right now. u can't deny it.




"If you wanna help us, fine. Sit down with your kids and make 'em study at night...otherwise, shoot THIS mothaf*cka!" (c) Morgan Freeman,

And I'm not sure why. I think he's great too - in the ring, promos, the mustache is hilarious...but he's just not that over. Not as over as should be, anyway.

I think the problem with Cody is that you can't really buy into him as a heel to be feared, as a legitimate threat to hurt people and do really dastardly things. Especially with Sandow, he's stuck being a borderline comedy heel...a useful target for ridicule by babyfaces, but that's about it.

Noticed he's put on quite a bit of weight in the last few months, which maybe will help with being more physically imposing, and thus more heelish. And maybe a program with Golddust will do some good.

he gets good heat


"If you wanna help us, fine. Sit down with your kids and make 'em study at night...otherwise, shoot THIS mothaf*cka!" (c) Morgan Freeman,

"If you wanna help us, fine. Sit down with your kids and make 'em study at night...otherwise, shoot THIS mothaf*cka!" (c) Morgan Freeman,

Their career arcs couldn't be any more different than they are. Nor are they especially similar wrestlers in the ring.

Are you simply saying that it can take some time between a wrestler joining WWE and winning a big belt? I mean, I'll concede that point, but again, Jericho?

they need s devasting joint finishing move and Young got to get rid of that hair cut.

NXT. that hair is becoming part of his gimmick now. he's effin hilarious

"If you wanna help us, fine. Sit down with your kids and make 'em study at night...otherwise, shoot THIS mothaf*cka!" (c) Morgan Freeman,

"If you wanna help us, fine. Sit down with your kids and make 'em study at night...otherwise, shoot THIS mothaf*cka!" (c) Morgan Freeman,

Already his attempts at trying to turn "Ain't nobody got time for dat!" catchphrase into his own have failed painfully.

ok.

You guys throw around the word "star" way too liberally. There's only like, five guys in the WWE that can be considered stars, and three of them only wrestle part-time.
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"If you wanna help us, fine. Sit down with your kids and make 'em study at night...otherwise, shoot THIS mothaf*cka!" (c) Morgan Freeman,

Seriously, off the top of my head, these people are bigger "stars" than Cody:

John Cena
CM Punk
Ryback
Chris Jericho
Sheamus
Dolph Ziggler
Randy Orton
Daniel Bryan
Kane
Rey Mysterio
Big Show
The Miz
Damien Sandow (more heat and is a better wrestler)

Not to mention the part timers: The Rock, Brock Lesnar, Triple H, The Undertaker...

A lot of the people on the above list aren't even stars, so not sure how Cody falls into that category. Not saying he can't or isn't going to get there, but he's not there now and it's a while away (no sooner than a year) if it happens.

It sucks living in a world where Miz is a bigger star than Cody, but he probably is.

Perhaps they fake a power outage and put WWE over at the expense of the Super Bowl, and then later on in the show the lights go out again... Lawler and Cole think it's a joke, except the lights come up and BAM, the Shield shows up to wreck things.

This is so easy.

great writing



* its on at work

Did they seriously just show us a 30 second video on how to download and use an app?

Between that, and Booker's I'm the managing manager line, the show's off to a GREAT start.

Save us, Cesaro.

he should have just stopped and been "Aw fuck it, I'm here who cares why and I'm about to put you in a match"

Don't fuck around, even if it's Vince's own personal HOF this is a big deal, both for the company and for Trips...

espn.com:

>WWE to induct Bruno Sammartino into HOF
February, 4, 2013
Feb 4
4:03
PM ET
By Jon Robinson | ESPN.com

Bruno Sammartino is to professional wrestling what Babe Ruth is to baseball.

The legendary grappler is the longest reigning WWE (then-WWF) champion of all time, with two title reigns spanning an eye-popping 11-plus years. And his legacy of headlining Madison Square Garden more than 200 times is what turned the Italian-born brawler into a worldwide sensation.

So it’s only fitting that Sammartino will be the main attraction at the WWE Hall of Fame ceremony on April 6 at MSG.

“Being inducted into the Hall of Fame at Madison Square Gardens is the biggest thing in my life,” Sammartino said in an exclusive interview for ESPN Playbook. “Anytime that people feel that you accomplished enough to enter into a Hall of Fame, of course this is a tremendous, tremendous thrill for me. I had a lot of my success due to appearing at the Garden. I wrestled there over 200 times, it’s where I won the title, and it’s where I picked up 630-plus pounds of Haystacks Calhoun.”

And while Sammartino had turned down the WWE’s previous offers of inducting him into its Hall of Fame due to a well-documented feud with the wrestling organization’s CEO and chairman Vince McMahon over a wide range of issues -- from Sammartino not liking the vulgar direction the product took during the Attitude Era to Sammartino’s criticism of drug abuse by members of the roster back in the '80s -- it was WWE executive Paul Levesque (aka Triple H) who stepped in and finally changed the legend’s mind.

“In talking to Paul Levesque, I made it clear, I’ve had issues with WWE and wrestling in general, because there were other organizations,” Sammartino said. “I didn’t like the direction they had taken. It was bothersome to me. I’m an old-school guy. I spent 25 years in this business. But after talking to Paul, and him explaining to me the changes they’ve made in their program, and how they’ve hired a doctor like Dr. Maroon, who is a world-renowned neurosurgeon, who also operated on me, and now that he has been put in charge of the company’s wellness program and their drug testing, that impressed me. I know what kind of a man he is, and he is a giant in that field, so I take my hat off to WWE because they took such huge steps to make things better for the wrestlers themselves and making sure they are healthy to perform. That was very, very important.

“But as Paul explained to me, WWE made a lot of other changes. There’s no more profanity, there’s no vulgarity in the current product, and that stuff had bothered me as well. When Paul first spoke to me and told me all the changes, I started watching it again, and I was very convinced that they are doing amazing things. I see the wrestlers and all the changes they made. There’s no profanity, there’s no vulgarity, and it’s a family-friendly program. That’s what it used to be, and that’s a huge role in the whole factor.”

In finally signing Sammartino, WWE sees this as an opportunity to not only celebrate everything he has done for the business but also add legitimacy to its Hall of Fame.

“From a legitimacy standpoint, it’s important for us to get Bruno in,” Levesque said. “He’s one of the biggest names there has ever been in the business. So for us to not have him in there, for the legitimacy of the whole thing, it was a major issue. For me, the more important thing was that nobody deserves to be recognized for being a big star and paving the way for the stars of today more than Bruno. Everything that we have today in the business, Bruno was a cornerstone of that foundation. He truly is a living legend.

“As we started getting into Hall of Fame season, it’s almost like this storyline wrote itself. To have Bruno Sammartino brought into the Hall of Fame in Madison Square Garden, a building he sold out more than anybody in the world, that’s a remarkable achievement. It was an opportunity to honor Bruno, but it was also an opportunity for our fans.

“There has been this bad blood between Bruno and the WWE for years, and we’re not trying to hide any of it, but I just felt like we are at a point where a lot of it can be resolved. Our wellness program and the way our programming is now, a lot of people are unaware of it, so I felt like if I could get Bruno on the phone and I could run down a list of those things that he didn’t like, I could show him how we changed. We’re PG, family-friendly entertainment with a wellness program that is truly based on the wellness of our performers. We want them to be healthy and live long, productive lives. So I just felt that if Bruno knew about those things, he might feel differently, and eventually, that’s what came to be.”

While Bruno has accepted the WWE’s offer to make an appearance at the Hall of Fame, he still hasn’t had the chance to speak to Vince McMahon, as Levesque is organizing a sit-down so the two can resolve any lingering issues face-to-face.

“Clearly, Vince knew about this right from the get-go, and when I said I wanted to reach out to Bruno, Vince was probably thinking, ‘Well, good luck with that,’” Levesque said. “So Bruno and I established this relationship, and as we came to an understanding on all of this, Vince asked me, ‘Hey, do you think I should call Bruno? I’d like to talk to him.’ At the same time, Bruno said, ‘Do you think I should have a conversation with Vince?’ And I said no to both of them. I didn’t think it was right to do over the phone. They had bad blood for a long time, and we’ve all kind of buried the hatchet here, and it’s a new beginning and a fresh start and everybody is in a great place with this. But going back to what Bruno said about being old-school, I think we should all get in the same room together and the two of them should look each other in the eyes and shake hands. This should be in person. I don’t think it’s right to do over the phone. They both agreed to do that, and while it hasn’t happened yet, Hall of Fame is probably where we’ll make that happen. Vince and Bruno will see each other for the first time in years and officially, in person, look each other in the eyes and bury that hatchet.”

As for trying to keep the announcement a secret, “it’s not ‘Mission Impossible’ or anything like that,” Levesque says, laughing. “But to me, Bruno getting into the Hall of Fame in Madison Square Garden is the biggest induction we’ve ever done, and rightfully so. He deserves that. So to just have it leak out there, that would’ve been wrong. This is a huge moment in time, and a massive moment for our fans, for Bruno and for WWE. This is the history of our business. Without Bruno Sammartino, we aren’t where we are today.”

_____________________________________________________________________________
Are we aware that well-written bullshit is... still bullshit?

Bruno and WWE were like Johnny Unitas and the Colts...

you thought you would NEVER see that reconciliation

And what are the commentary team talking about? The Rock's Super Bowl commercial.

Of course.

Welcome back Mark Henry, we've missed you.

I start marking out when Mark Henry comes out and starts beating the hell out of Rey, I look over and my son is bawling his eyes out. I get the Bad Dad Award of the night.....



You gon' live forever
Whether you want to or not
Some of us gon' end up holy
Some of us gon' end up hot.....

my god is he awful or is he awful.

You gon' live forever
Whether you want to or not
Some of us gon' end up holy
Some of us gon' end up hot.....

Especially after watching him throw those chairs at Miz?

Not sure which I enjoyed more, him throwing the chairs, or the F-5 dangerously close to that overturned couch.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7641/lesnarmizchair2zps736ed.gif

For murdering Miz just now.

Randy Orton and Wade Barrett again???



You gon' live forever
Whether you want to or not
Some of us gon' end up holy
Some of us gon' end up hot.....

I say that in all seriousness.

Now they repeat them every RAW.

This is what happens when you have 5 hours of TV to fill every week.

"Sit Down Marks!"

In three hours Mark Henry came back and Punk beat Jericho.

If Super Cena takes out The Shield to end the show, we riot.

that and Punk screaming at the ref "Ask him! Ask him!" when he had Jericho in an ARMBAR. he's great with these little in-ring things.

let me just say, 3 hour live RAW sucks, there was SO much dead time. I mean, literally 5 minutes with no music playing, nothing on the Titantron, just the house lights dimmed and everyone sitting there doing nothing. I'm gonna watch the show to see what the hell y'all were doing while we were sitting there looking like dummies.

After the show, Cena announced a six man tag match at Elimination Chamber with him, Ryback and Sheamus teaming up against The Shield. Big surprise. Then Punk came back out with Ziggler and they proceeded to have one hell of a tag match against Cena and Ryback. Lots of great spots throughout and the match ran almost 20 minutes long, which surprised me because usually at our Atlanta RAW shows get a 3 minute dark match at most.

In other news, Damien Sandow had a match against Justin Gabriel that they taped for Superstars, where he announced that he and Cody Rhodes will be taking a break from tag team matches for a while. Looks like thats the end of that tag team revival.

Me and Mini Me hung out outside the arena trying to get a glimpse of some of the wrestlers leaving, but we missed most of them since we stayed and watched the dark match. We did get to see Brodus (no Cameron or Naomi though), Santino, AJ, Vickie, Randy Orton, and 3MB, also saw Cena walking around outside in 40 degree weather with no shirt on. All in all a really cool night at the wrasslin matches with my son.....



You gon' live forever
Whether you want to or not
Some of us gon' end up holy
Some of us gon' end up hot.....

of these posts

I'm envious. My 1 1/2 year old daughter tends to curl up and watch RAW with me each week, it'd be kinda cool if she does the same thing 10 years from now and likes it enough to catch a live event with me.

I wanna get my gf's son into wrestling, but he's too busy being smart, lol. I'd rather him be like that though, lol.

event is a week away and they haven't even mentioned having a second EC match.....



You gon' live forever
Whether you want to or not
Some of us gon' end up holy
Some of us gon' end up hot.....

where as the EC is for Smackdown to see who will get the WH title shot at Mania

Accidentally dropped him on his head during a match.

According to wrestlezone so take it with a grain of salt.

True or not, fuck Miz.

What's the end game with the Miz? Are people ever really going to say "I bought my ticket to see the Miz" ? No. Just let him roll. He's terrible at everything.

Outside of Cena he's considered the hardest working wrestler on the roster. Although I'm sure they're not too happy with him right now, I doubt they'll ever cut him.
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his pre-mania run was very good. I dunno what the fuck has happened since, and he's been forgettable until his show started up. Since then he's been mildly entertaining at best. I did like him showing his nutts when Lesnar came out, and that counts for something IMO. His finisher is ass. Actually, he has too much in common with Jeff Jarret for my liking these days, right down to the shitty jacking of the F4. Still, he's got an excellent move set and his matches are always worth watching.

Still, while he hasn't been impressive, worst thing they've got? Hardly.

I mean... Khali can barely walk.

Heath Slater is beyond awful.

This Bo Dallas kid is terrible and looks and acts like a c-list GWF guy. Who the fuck drenches their hair in a gallon of baby oil (water maybe?) in this day and age?

Kofi has the personality of a freshly delivered empty Pizza box - I mean, it was exciting until you opened it up. He doesn't even have Jeff Hardy mic skills, and that's a low bar indeed.

>Kofi has the personality of a freshly delivered empty Pizza
>box - I mean, it was exciting until you opened it up. He
>doesn't even have Jeff Hardy mic skills, and that's a low bar
>indeed.

He works hard, and does great spots, and he's got everything going on EXCEPT he's boring as hell.

I was actually thinking the other day that maybe you could turn him heel and have the gimmick be this horrible serial killer type - friendly and normal by all appearances, but inside a twisted soul. The banality of evil. Like Gustavo Fring, or Dexter. So when Kofi says some boring bullshit in a promo like, "I'm going to do everything I can to win back the Intercontinental title," suddenly it's the most sinister thing ever, because "everything I can" could mean something horrifying.

Basically, a Ted Bundy gimmick.

This would probably not be PG television, however.

is that Kofi's supposedly Punk's best friend backstage.

Like, *none* of that charisma is rubbing off on Kofi?


I grew up watching wrestling, and stopped right around the time Hunter Hearst Helmsley and Goldust hit the scene. I picked it up again right at the beginning of 2011, when Punk just took over the Nexus.

Since I started watching again, Kofi is the only wrestler who hasn't changed his gimmick at all. Like, at all. I think the only thing he added was the SOS... which is cool, but he doesn't hit it clean half the time and it's not a threat to finish anyone at all.

Santino added the sock, at least.

The one thing most people go back to when it comes to seeing Kofi's potential is his feud with Randy Orton and destroying the race car. Kofi spoke like a regular man, except he spoke like the kind of man you just don't fuck with unless you want your ass beat. The wife beater worked too. People were buzzing on him.

He can't be this cheesing ass Dee Jay from Street Fighter character any longer. His ring work is cool, but that "super high jumping punch followed by running around the ring like Tatanka before another super high jumping punch" routine overshadows the rest of his matches almost every time out. his recent match with Dolph was a show stealer and a match that again had people buzzing.

The worst thing about him is, we've all seen those glimpses, but then it's back to business as usual with him. His music is dope and his finisher can easily be sold as WWE's deadliest-and was after he Real World (Zing!)gave Miz the WWE "Holy Shit!' concussion of the year with it.

Basically, I count him with Morrison as a guy with big time in ring tools and shit for personality (though Jo Mo showed serious heel potential (read: potential) in that classic Rick Rude (WWE incarnation, not WCW, where he was far more ruthless) HBK (Think his Gay Biker outfit era) mold, where he's the cocky, pretty boy type that will kick your ass and fuck your wife in your bed afterward). Basically he's great as an over-exxagerated 80's teen villain.

Jeff Hardy is the most notable exception to the personality rule, because his persona (persona and personality aren't really the same thing) and performance was so over the top good and made him so marketable that he became a credible top guy.

.

People say Punk was hurt, but he finished the match and will be fine.
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That was as enjoyable an opening segment as I can remember.

By having Mark Henry murder a giant and a munchkin. This Raw's off to a great start.

Is fine with me. Solid, solid match.

Until their impressive victory over the imposing 3MB.

At the very least we should be thankful it wasn't an "Air Guitar Contest"

and away from the more entertaining parts of the roster, the better I feel.

HOL'UP...JACK SWAGGER WITH WHO!!!??!??!??!


are you serious??? Dirty Dutch is Swagger's manager? Wow, I hate I'm missing Raw tonight

But it's Dutch.

dude was one of my favorites when I was growing up. Him, Lawler, Dundee, and Austin Idol had some of the illest matches that will probably never be seen

We know that Vince likes to "push buttons," but cmon

Pretty sure he's setting Swagger up to be the next opponent for Del Rio, what with all of the talk of "foreigners" and such

____________________________________________________________________________
Sorry, niggas, for knowing shit.

That was awesome

Woulda been greater had Miz sold it longer than he did

___________________________________________________________________________
Sorry, niggas, for knowing shit.

and not the pre-show. He's killing it everywhere (even on twitter).

And for good measure:

http://i.minus.com/iCNTBtAX6r8bU.gif

The three "invaders" vs the the "company" guys thing just seems very peculiar to me. I'm not making any predictions, and the chances of it happening are nonexistent, but I'm still catching smallish vibes of a Hogan turn with it turning out that Cena has been working with the Shield this entire time.

2. Fantastic intro w/ Paul and Punk. They've got a card up their sleeve.

3. This is a very good crowd. They've been hot for everything thus far, though they dipped during the Swagger match.

4 Which leads me to Dutch. Why not just call him Dutch? Play up his history a little bit, with the guys he's trained. Embellish and give him more responsibility for Steve Austin than he actually had.

At any rate, I ain't mad at the "Real Americans" gimmick. It's pretty much just an inverted version of the Sgt Slaughter anti-American turn to be honest, with him hating foreigners instead of Americans. On the surface, I get why others aren't thrilled with it but I think it's a little oversensitive to be honest. To be honest, the biggest downside is the potential to backfire- they just might get a lot more cheers than they expect with this.

Also, it works perfectly with pushing Del Rio as a face. I like that direction for this, especially with DM in the mix. In the end, while I actually like the idea, it's probably not going to go over too well. I guarantee if Linda was still in the midst of a senate race this would not happen.

Damn good start to the show though.

From when he was Jon Moxley, working for IWA.

http://youtu.be/zNGOY-jeYwI

Promo starts at about 1:00.

tonight is one of those nights.

EDIT: but damn AJ is becoming even more off the chain

This was a solid show that started out great.

"I'm probably wrong, but it has that vibe to it."

The singular focus on Cena just smells fishy.

This would be acceptable.

http://www.wrestlingforum.com/raw/687130-lol-cena-cheating-his-wife-porn-star.html

Perfect role model for kids


John Cena's ex wife Elizabeth Huberdeau has revealed the reason why the couple split. She says Cena cheated on her with a porn star by the name of Kendra Lust. Cena apparently met this woman at the gym and they hit it off. Cena had sex with Kendra Lust over the period of 1 year. Viewing Kendra Lust's twitter posts confirms this story and the WWE is now scrambling to keep this story under wraps. The WWE has already threatened Elizabeth Huberdeau with a lawsuit and has asked Kendra Lust to delete her twitter account. More developing...

(NSFW-ish)

http://i.imgur.com/WHsq5YX.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/RZO6wx9.jpg

.

Particularly Brie (or both?) Bellas and Mickie James.

And there's probably more on that slut list.
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>Particularly Brie (or both?) Bellas and Mickie James.
>
>And there's probably more on that slut list.

That's a solid list even if those are the only ones. The Bella twins are outlandish in person (and in general but they were flat out special in person...thicker in the thigh than they looked on TV). Saw them at a TLC in Houston, had good seats, AND one of my boys had binoculars...been a fan ever since.

I would love the hell out of a Cena heel turn but we aren't that lucky.

Jimaveli

That being said, I would LOVE for this to be true.

I just think it's fucking hilarious, haha.

that one piece swimsuit just looks disgusting on him.....



You gon' live forever
Whether you want to or not
Some of us gon' end up holy
Some of us gon' end up hot.....