I thought more people would take part in the TFA revisit, but maybe it shows that it's hard for people to do one of these every single week. Should we space them out more?

This one should be interesting. Easily the most polemic of all The Roots albums and Ahmir has spoken extensively on how and why this album came to be. 12 years after it's release I wonder if people will think it was "ahead of its time" or if it's "trash" how we're going to perceive this one. We're gonna try breaking things up by track and see how it goes doing that.

Two rules:
1. Over the next 7 days give Phrenology 3-5 listens
2. Come back here with your thoughts.


The Roots: Phrenology
Released: Nov. 26th 2002



01. Phrentrow feat. Urusla Rucker (0:18)
02. Rock You (3:13)
03. !!!!!!! (0:25)
04. Sacrifice feat. Nelly Furtado(4:47)
05. Rolling with Heat feat. Talib Kweli(3:42)
06. Waok (Ay) Rollcall feat. Ursula Rucker (1:00)
07. Thought @ Work (5:21)
08. The Seed 2.0 feat. Cody Chesnutt (4:28)
09. Break You off feat. Musiq Soulchild (7:27)
10. Water (10:24)
11. Quills (4:22)
12. Pussy Galore (4:29)
13. Complexity feat. Jill Scott (4:48)
14. Something in The Way of Things (in Town) feat. Amiri Baraka (7:16)

17. Rhymes and Ammo feat. Talib Kweli / Thirsty! (7:60)

Funny, in the IH post I had made the comment that Illadelph was their 'reactionary' record – but now that I'm listening to Phrenology again, this one might take the cake.

The whole Phren record (which, looking back now, is not nearly as bad nor as incredible as it was depicted to be at the time) was a middle-finger to any expectations that might be thrust upon the group with their newfound success and the "formula" that listeners might have attributed to it.

That's a theme that I'll revisit in the other replies in this thread, but yes – they literally had to cut off the "typical Roots sound intro" to let people know what the fuck was up.

>

Simple and to the point. Sets the mood nicely. Only good thing Ursala ever did for them...along with the Roll Call I guess.

Starts as a "typical" roots intro before cutting... this isn't gonna be a "typical" roots album. "We're deading what you think we/this should be right out of the gates."

Rock You isn't a bad beat, but it's so Fucking repetitive.

I think that jarring and abrasive sound was kind of the point. As the jumpoff that tore the skin off of the neo-soul intro that preceded it, I think the whole intent was to show that things were going to be really different on this record.

This isn't really a track that I revisit often, but Thought absolutely kills it and I think it's effective for its purpose on the album. But yeah, not my favorite track.

a repetitive beat is perfect for that kinda lyrical display

you must not like Rap music ;)

There's a difference between a repetitive beat and a half bar loop...and yes I know it's technically longer than a half bar loop but not to the average listener.

That along with the beat being jarring, I can understand people not liking it.

i can understand why some think it's dope. i wanna agree, but i just can't get past the ultra repetitiveness.

i do like the madden version a little better tho.

Def a strong song out of the gate. I feel like this should be someone's walk up to bat music or music for a boxer to come out to. Thought is nice this is my favorite lyrics
"Yo yall savages is primitive
I'm true penmanship
Here come the neuro-linguistic rhyme hypnotist
Making sound waves
Prisoners outta the listeners"

Thought kills this.

I do understand the complaints of the repetitive beat but this is Hip-Hop shit right here.

Raw and uncut.

I don't think it's as strong as Proceed, Respond/React or TOC though.

But not my favorite song on the album. I feel the comments about the repetitiveness of the beat, which makes it one I don't wanna hear just on a whim, but within the context of the album it works and works well. Thought rips.

also kicks off a punky rock mix i made some years back: http://soundcloud.com/confessionsofacurlymind/vaheleisurecast021-imamess.

we were gonna get lyrics?? lol. all i could ever really make out was the "FUCK YOU" at the end.

V.

Yeah, where those lyrics at???

But still effective in terms of distinguishing the overall theme/message of the record, which was "hey...we're not going to play by the rules."

This is probably a good place to reflect on the fact that this is the only record that Ben Kenney ever played on. I'm a big fan of Incubus as well as his solo records (the first of which was actually recorded in ?uestlove's kitchen), and I always wished that he had been given more of a platform to shine on the record. But then again, I guess Kirk hasn't really gotten a chance to either, and he's been on 5x as many albums.

>

It's not bad and it actually bridges into Sacrafice very nicely but...

I'm a sequence freak and big on placement of records and to me track 3 should be reserved for one of your strongest songs...not an interlude.

I would've just attached this to Rock You and placed Sacrafice at 3 or even Thought @ Work.

Obviously, I know this is a personal preference but going Intro - Song - Interlude is te the strongest start.

One of my favorite songs on the album. The whole song flows nicely. I love thoughts 3rd verse he was known to be unapproachable and kind of explains it here. I like nelly furtado on the hook. If you haven't heard the bbc version they did of this live make sure you listen to it.

That said, this is still one of my favorites from the record. Also, I vaguely recall Nelly Furtado's involvement being some sort of controversy, a stance that seems ridiculous today.

just incredible sound

From the very start...this joint just has a great vibe.

I'm big on the vibe of records and his is a feel good joint. Thought's flow is perfect.

The hook is great. I wish Thought used this talent more often as opposed to Dice.

n/m

And I know that's the theme of the album more or less but still.
It was one of my favorites when the album came out, but I like it less now. Not bad by any means, though. Just... doesn't quite feel right to me.

The beat never did it for me, and this really marked the beginning of the Questionable Hooks from Dice Era. Thought kills it as usual and Kweli is alright (never been a huge fan of his), but this song kind of annoys me more than anything.

Speaking of Kweli...and reflecting on how tight a lot of cats were a decade ago (see my Furtado comment in the "Sacrifice" reply....it's interesting to note that it's not like the Roots were the only ones who used their post-Soulquarian-era album to rebel against their perceived status quo. Kweli's 'Quality' also "broke format" in quite a few songs, all of which seem laughably acceptable at this point.

I mean, cats were really tripping over him talking about guns on "Gun Music?" We were that bothered by a slicker West Coast sound on the DJ Quik joint? Was it such a crime to have a sung hook on "Waiting for the DJ?" I realize that hindsight is 20/20, and these moves may have helped to foster the shift in perspective, but it's crazy how much artists were kind of catching shade for stepping outside their boxes when, looking back, they weren't doing anything all that appalling.

>I mean, cats were really tripping over him talking about guns
>on "Gun Music?" We were that bothered by a slicker West Coast
>sound on the DJ Quik joint? Was it such a crime to have a sung
>hook on "Waiting for the DJ?" I realize that hindsight is
>20/20, and these moves may have helped to foster the shift in
>perspective, but it's crazy how much artists were kind of
>catching shade for stepping outside their boxes when, looking
>back, they weren't doing anything all that appalling.

I was a HUGE fan of the neo-soul/Soulquarian sound but I also accepted and enjoyed those same artists breaking that mold. I've always appreciated, understood and preferred my artists evolving and growing rather than sticking to the same formula that "works". A great example is that Kanye could have stuck in the same Get By/I Try/This Way/etc. rut and kept making the same song over and over, and faded out by 2006. But he decided to evolve and grow, and even though I haven't liked a lot of his output since 2007, I still will always check for him and am always interested because I know he will forever present something new and fresh, even if it doesn't ultimately move me in the end.

even rock you has a better beat imo

I remember disliking this when I first copped the album.

But now...I rocks with this beat. Thought and Kweli come hard.

Dice almost hurts he track...and I know I will be saying this in future posts.

His hook does work though and overall the track is a banger.

>Dice almost hurts he track...and I know I will be saying this
>in future posts.
>

The shape of things to come...

But now its a track a like a lot. Interestingly I like Kweli a lot less than I did when this was released. I love that beat. It makes so much sense to me that a song like this is on the album. It's like nothing they'd done before, but it feels so right.

>

I'm not big on interludes and not sure I would track this individually but it works. They definitely stepped the transitions up.

You can tell they were intentionally on all their albums but they just got better and better with the transitions on their albums.

Thought kills this song for sure. I could never appreciate the album version after hearing the leak of the original. The original would have fit the album better and made it a stronger album.

The spirit of the song is still basically the same, and for that, I really dig this song. Might actually be my favorite on the album. Love that it has stayed in rotation in the live set for quite some time.

nowadays i think they are about even. but having already heard the og and expecting that, i was disappointed with the album version at first.

That's what yall get for listening to leaks, lol. That's why I don't do it anymore. Just give me the finished released product. Hell, I don't even think of the original version of Thought@work. I made myself get used to the released version. It still goes. Probably my favorite track on Phren

I agree that the original is better but this is an instance where I don't understand the issue. The vibe of the track is still there and this beat is still sick. They have a lot of layers here and it all comes together perfectly.

His is one of Thoughts best performances. Verses are crazy but specifically the hook. I could see this being a hit if pushed properly.

nm

Pretty much 8 out of 10 times I'm in bar these days I hear this song. Probably the roots second most successful song behind you got me. I enjoy it but I'm a bigger fan of thought rapping then singing.

then i saw them do it live in the vein of the Seed/Outro/Melting pot that is on homegrown and have loved it ever since.

I cants stand the hook.

"I pushed my seed in her bush for life / it's gonna work because I'm pushing it right"

That shit fucking sucks. I don even feel right saying that shit let alone typing it.

I do love the live feel of the track thought.

And Thought's Tone Loc flow is dope.

still love it.

hear it all the time...

even on the Fallon show they played this in The History of Rap over You Got Me...

Honestly, I probably prefer this to You Got Me. The production is very interesting to me. Probably suffers from having a dated/tacky phrase as the title/chorus.

I mean, again, not a song I necessarily clamor to hear, but I never mind hearing it when it's on. I think the production is actually better/more interesting than "You Got Me," while the hook/lyrics/overall song concept are perhaps not as strong.

Also, the DnB outro does kind of seem like a rehash of "You Got Me," obviously...but still a dope way to end it. Kenney's swelling guitars are also a nice touch (and kind of ironic as he would leave the band to join Incubus, whose guitarist Mike Einziger employed the same effect/technique on many of their songs as part of his signature style at the time).

I also really like the different live renditions of this track, particularly the dub version on Homegrown.

I know that a lot of them were addressed in the Homegrown liner notes, but I seem to recall that there were a few names that went unidentified. Don't have the CD accessible at the moment to reference.

Just wasn't my thing, mainly because the highly repetitious chorus - I mean it's repeated way way way way way too much.

And I think "Coming to break you off" would work way better if it was said once a chorus, or even once a song. (Same way I thought Not Gonna Be Able To Do It would have worked better with less too.)

Seems like a song that might more more sense if you're a little (or a lot) high. It definitely feels like a Scott Storch song and not a Roots song - BUT it's a Kamal song!!??!!

But the this happens in the song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VixoRhDLDYw#t=4m40s

Sure it goes into the D&B pattern like You Got Me - but something else happens - like a Melodica starts in and i gets way more interesting than the previous 4 minutes.

The beat is quality.

The verses are good.

I never like Musiq so maybe he's the reason.

I can't even put my finger on it but something just ain't right.

Only reason it gets skipped is because it's after The Seed and before Water. I just go straight from Thought @ Work to Water.

I feel the same. It was the track that I immediately had the urge to skip, but I let it play and by the second chorus I was singing a long. The dated phrasing in the hook/title still grates on me, but overall it's pretty good I suppose. Like it and dislike it at the same damn time.

That's probably controversial, since he's got so many knockout verses. But "Water" not only sounds great on a pure bars-level, it's a gutpunch of an emotional song too. The music is gorgeous on top of that.

--------
Guante: www.guante.info

I love thought on this song, before this album thought was only considered a braggadocio mc this was the album where he broke that cycle and this was the main song that did it. If you followed the roots up to this album water hit you hard. I could never get into the instrumental interpretation and the end it was cool maybe once or twice but it gets skipped nowadays as soon as the main song is over. The mtv $2bill version of under the bridge/water is epic.

Great
"They say a record ain't nothin' if it's not touchin', grippin'
Draw you in close and make you wanna listen to it
And if you real ill at makin' music
The listener feel like he living through it
That's how my nigga do it"

it would be nice to hear it at the picnic, quest.

not sure how I felt about this track in the light of that.

was too hard to listen to as it cemented is non-presence on the album.

The pivotal moments from the roots FOR ME, include Malik B as the duo MC.


werd.

>The pivotal moments from the roots FOR ME, include Malik B as
>the duo MC.

Because the song is all about their missing member, making it a quasi tribute song which to me says "he's here in spirit, he just needs some help"...the rest of the album doesn't feature Malik in lyrics or in spirit, so I think that's what the OP was getting at.

I get what you're saying, don't get me wrong. I just look at the song from the other perspective.

The ending doesn't always gets played but I do like the Bitches Brew inspired piece. I just don't think it fits on the album.

Again, one of Thought's best performances. It works because all of the fans love Malik and the content was important to hear.

The beat is just hip-hop perfection.

Not just because it spoke on a relevant topic that had been creeping into the minds of a lot of Roots fans, but also because BT so often gets pegged as not diving too heavy into topics. So this was definitely appreciated and masterfully done.

I never understood the backlash against the music that followed the traditional part of the song. It wasn't terrible to me, it served its purpose for what they were trying to do...and if you weren't into it (like I often feel when I listen to this track), YOU CAN JUST SKIP IT! It's not like they put it on the front so that you'd have to sift through minutes of noise to get to the song.

That in itself sort of typifies the way I felt and feel about Phrenology. So many people at the time spoke out against it because it was "too weird/too off" but I never found it to be all THAT challenging. I guess I can see if you only ever really listened to hip hop, it would be some unfathomable mindfuck, but the way I saw it, they're a band...lots of bands do lots of different styles/approaches.

Now, just because they went in different lanes doesn't mean that the results were always stellar. I think if I take any points away from this album, it's because some of the songs/results weren't that great. But I never understood holding the fact that they did different things against them off principal alone.

Classic Roots joint.

I loved Water...personal Black Thought doesn't happen often and it was deep...

I wondered where Malik was when I first heard the song...

The track is kinda basic but Thought ripped it. Tracey Moore singing the Swing Out Sisters on the hook was a bonus. This song stays on repeat.

The changes in dynamics and the addition of the guitar and tuba...man. I can't even listen to the album version anymore. It gets murderated by its live counterpart.

i think we have to keep annoying quest about it. i mean the band has changed 100 times since their last live album.

Would be a perfect release for them, IMO. Make it a DVD/Blu-ray!

I've often wondered why they haven't released another one, considering they are in their best form on stage.

I remember reading on the boards years ago that ?uest had said he didn't want to encapsulate the live experience for a CD/DVD because he didn't want it to deter people from checking out the live show...but now that they're on television every night, I wonder if that's still his reasoning? Copyright issues due to all the replays/medleys they do?

"Yo, I hold the mic that could be thrown as a pipe bomb
Bring it just to sling it at your favorite icon
Thing about my music is it ain't shit like y'all
Thought, diesel like a 28-inch python
You know what I'm sayin?"

Love the keys on this song and the change of pace for the hook.

>"Yo, I hold the mic that could be thrown as a pipe bomb
>Bring it just to sling it at your favorite icon
>Thing about my music is it ain't shit like y'all
>Thought, diesel like a 28-inch python
>You know what I'm sayin?"
>
>Love the keys on this song and the change of pace for the
>hook.

yeah I love how he closed it out.

That Hulk Hogan reference was so dope to me. So I agree that the way he closed this out was great.

"Hit the studio with a pen and a vendetta" was another one that I loved in this song.

after it was released. I always loved how he said "sippin' a ice cold Beck's, puffin' the 10th letter". Since I always smoked more blunts than joints I would say "let's go hit the 12th letter" to my buddies. Which now just turned into "who's got some 12s let's blaze" and shit like that. Haha. Been ongoing for like 10 years now.

Anyway yea - Thought ripped this song.

This is the Concerto/Dundee type joint.

Love it.

.

i remember rockin this the most out of the Thought solo joints that leaked before Phrenology came together. played it a LOT.

V.

I think this really proves how tight they are as a group. The fact that Thought basically took his solo album and made it a group album to fulfil the Geffen contract is one of those things you don't hear about often in music.

so this was another one where i was disappointed with the album version at first, but later grew to appreciate.

Beat is dope.

Concept is dope.

Verses are dope.

Hook is actually dope.

But the word Pussy just doesn't work. Never will in this capacity either.

Same thing with Xzibit's Pussy Pop.

There might not be anythin I love more than pussy on this earth and it just don't work lol.

this part can make it tough listen.


"But the word Pussy just doesn't work. Never will in this capacity either."

Hate Jill's part. The over-enunciated new age therapist Stuart Smalley tone of her voice and the on-the-nose nature of the lyrics just make me reach for skip. I don't know... Jill, use a metaphor or something.

I never liked the joint for that reason. Her tone, the way she says "complexity", the actual lyrics.

That shit just ain't my thing.

I've grown to appreciate the song more for the music and verses but the hook still isn't my favorite.

I kind of wish they still did spoken word pieces on their albums. These were always canvases in which they could really stretch their arms out.

Much as I enjoy this, I kind of check out of the record after "Quills." I don't really have anything to say about the other tracks. Not bad, I just never had a moment where they clicked with me, so I don't find myself wanting to go back to them. When I listen to them now, they're okay, but I still feel the same way.

I thought it was Bill Cosby for the longest time

I had this album a good 5-6 years before I heard this song. It was my sophomore year in football and I played this album a lot on the bus on the ride home (since I still had a cd player at the time, I only had like 3-4 cds in roation). On a longer trip, i dozed off and then this hard ass beat came on and woke me up.

One of my favorite songs on the album. I prefer this version to the soundbombing (or was it lyricist lounge?) version cuz Thought's second verse is so dope (cynderblock shoes at the bottom of the lake).

i left it running one day and forgot about it

one of his best performances hands down

Rock You (Madden remix): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7UbcBWJ8pA

last year I played Madden heavy like that. I killed a lot of time playing that game during my soph/jr year of college.

It was a mainstay my freshman year in college and always reminds me of that wonderful, mystical year everytime I listen to it. I didn't understand the hatred for it then and don't get it now, though someone above brought up a good point that every one of the neo-soul associated acts caught shade for stepping outside the "Soulquarian" box and making different tunes. Which, as I stated in another post in here, I will ALWAYS appreciate and prefer over rehashing the same shit over and over, even if ultimately, in the end, I like the neo-soul sound better than anything else they tried.

after IH, TFA, and TRCA, this was such a departure in sound for the most part. it had to grow on me ala Stankonia. originally, i only loved about 6 songs, but it's since grown on me to where I love everything except Rolling with Heat, !!!!, and the Roll call interlude.

I was in WTF status when I first heard it...but it grew on me...

that shit jams to me.

"If I don't like it, I don't like it. That don't mean that I'm hating."

and I was gonna write the below but didn't think it was necessary...

But I didn't mean "hate" in the "y'all hatin'!!!!" way. I literally meant that I don't understand why people dislike the song. And I don't. But I'm not accusing you all of being "haters".

It's just repetitive and always reminds me of a toy duck. And the fact that the hook doubles it is strike 2 & 3 for me, because

a) I don't like that riff, and
b) hooks that double the melody of the main instrument note for note have always been a pet peeve of mine

but it just doesn't hit me like pussy galore, quills, water, thought @ work, etc. heck, i think i even like rock you more.

Soundtrack to my sophomore year of college. Went to the $2 bill tour at the 9:30 club in D.C. My roommates and I played this album religiously. Almost every song has a story and conjures very vivid images/memories when I hear it.

For some strange reason, I'm reluctant to listen to it in it's entirety. Can't really explain it. Sophomore year was hella fun. I did go through a painful breakup (looking back I'm embarrassed by how much I let it affect me) and drank/smoked far more than I ever have or should have. My grades hit an all time low...BUT, I did have a ton of great times and moments that year.

I'm gonna have to give this album a spin tomorrow.

Brings back some many memories

real ass shit

http://i61.tinypic.com/10f0tok.jpg

favorite roots album.. i really think it's some flag-in-the-ground type shit.. and my goodness, bt's vocal performance on that album is pretty special.. he became an all-timer in my book after this album

I played this album a lot when it came out. A lot. But it's been so long that many of the songs felt familiar but almost new. I thought the intro was really showing that this album would be a major departure from what they'd done before, but really most of the album makes sense as a logical growth from where they'd come from. I'll follow the format and reply to songs, and make the post for TTP later today.

This is a top 5 album by The Roots IMO. I like it more than the albums that followed with the exception of Game Theory which is a top 3 album by The Roots.

Ben Kenny on the guitar was fun (I dig Kirk more, personally, but Ben was an element that at that time the Roots never really had like that), Scratch, lots of Cody on that tour too.

I saw it once at Smokin Grooves 02 - Cody blew my mind on The Seed before we even knew that track really. Then saw it again at HOB Anaheim - favorite Roots performance ever. Cody opened, Skillz at the halftime show, Thought even did a Joe Cocker cover...shit was heat. 3 hours.

I still love Phrenology, and loved it when it dropped. I go between this, TFA, and Game Theory as my tops, and I rotate between them but Phren is always #2 at worst.

The tour made me appreciate this album way more than I did at the time...it had to grow on me...

That show at Wake Forest is still one of my favorite Roots shows and i've been to more than a few...

it's on the cusp of top 5 roots album for me...it's close...real close...