Gift and the curse of working with the GOAT I guess.

Thing is Guru was a dope rapper but his name doesn't often get brought up when talking about dope rappers. Reasons for this may include:

-Preem was the larger figure in the group(both in talent & personality)
-Guru didn't do a lot of guest appearances
-lack of name recognition (solo MC in a group, name wasn't part of group name, a la PR&CL)

He's kind of like the reverse of Eric B & Rakim. I can't think of anyone else more overlooked, underrated rappers like Thought and Phife get more shine(although BT is a much better rapper). He gets respect when he's mentioned, but I don't think there has been anyone more overlooked with that talent level than Guru.

I agree that Guru is underrated. Dude held it down on those Gang Starr LP's and the first three Jazzmatazz projects. I think his monotone style wasn't everyone's cup of tea though and being in a group with the GOAT doesn't help either. He was an older dude too so the youth wasn't fucking with the content with the exception of Hard to Earn. I think that album rubbed the older heads the wrong way lyrically. That was the harshest Guru ever got IMO.

he's not only one of the most overlooked emcees, but he's a great songwriter
MOT has some of the finest songwriting in Hip Hop over the course of an album, and I don't mean in the industry talk bullshit ass way either

is he overlooked by people who were THERE though?

i think the johnny come latelys who worship at the house of preem and dilla overlook Guru..but anybody who was listening 90-96 knows… whoever fronted on him.

theres a couple of acts that when people dismiss i know they johnny come latelys

puba
treach
guru
redman

because everybody else knows how he was the face of Gang Starr before Primo reinvented himself and started doing outside work

celebrated as a great/rapper personality

much more than Puba, Treach or Guru

>MOT has some of the finest songwriting in Hip Hop over the
>course of an album, and I don't mean in the industry talk
>bullshit ass way either

aka the "but Future writes good hooks and knows how to craft a song" way.

nm

The initial Gang Starr production duties were a team effort up through Daily Operation.

Premier didn't start becoming the go-to outside producer/DJ extraordinaire until probably around the time of KRS Return of the Boom-Bap in '93 going into '94.

Guru around that same time was the more visible member with the trademark voice, Premier likely started doing more outside work because he had more time basically living at D&D as Guru was taking that Mo Better Blues 'Jazz Thing' concept to the hilt with actual live instrumentation on the first Jazzmatazz album, touring/doing press for that record, being featured on the Brand New Heavies/Neneh Cherry/Dream Warriors/Buhloone Mindstate/Ronny Jordan and other jazz-rap-fusion-related stuff.

Thing is while that stuff was getting a lot of critical praise in that era with write-ups in every music magazine from Downbeat to Spin, like most any other jazz-related records over the past couple decades, it didn't really sell all that well.

Meanwhile Premier (who was also still in the 'jazz-rap' vein a bit in terms of the samples while working with Branford & Dream Warriors but not as overtly) was doing the Jeru album, plus had credits on Ready to Die & Illmatic with his hand in at least one classic record of the era on each.

That same year the belated Hard To Earn dropped, amazingly including the Premier-scratched banger 'Dwyck' which had already had a video plus been the b-side on the 'Take It Personal' cassette-single and presumably 12" for nearly two years by that point.

This was the first album where Premier is credited as the producer rather than co-producer and the album's sound was a bit grittier and more 'hip-hop' than Step In The Arena or Daily Operation.

It's also the first album in their catalog to feature DJ Premier, rather than Guru, in the foreground of the cover photo.

Whether that was an accidental or intentional photographic summation of the shift that had occurred by mid-'94, Premier's trademark musical sound-bed would become the de-facto 'New York Rap'/true-school sound signifier for what seemed like the whole second half of the 90's into early 2000/01.

It was at that point the tables had kinda turned in terms of power, Premier's profile loomed large during the long absence of a Gang Starr record for the next four years as Guru went further down the rabbit-hole of the jazz stuff before wandering in the creative wilderness waiting for his partner to get back in the increasingly longer gaps between group efforts.

Subsequent generations who weren't around or were too young to remember the early 90's now want to now paint it as Guru being carried by Premier or say dumb shit like 'Premier & Jeru were a better duo' while acting like the man with the classic voice + gifts for songwriting beyond a scratched-vocal sample chorus was some kind of Malachi The Nutcracker-style scrub.

Guru's musical regression on the Baldhead Slick album, bizarre relationship with Solar, legal/substance issues, illness and muted/mysterious death didn't help to quell that misguided talk and perception.

But make no mistake that man is a legend and a great MC despite not having earned some imaginary stripes bestowed upon him by the Fat Beats Geeks or their Internet-Rap-Olympic-Nerd offspring thru spitting a multitude of multis & verbal gymnastics

Guru was more concerned with content, clarity, song-craft, storytelling all delivered thru his inimitable vocal filter.

Give the credit y'all......where it is due.

this is exactly it

It was sad when these revisionist critisisms started cropping up a few years ago in the Lesson. From now on, I'm going to link to this if I see any.

on the mic. Guru is a great emcee, but I would probably go back and listen to more old of their old albums if they featured an emcee that matched the quality of the production. I think that is more of a nod to their production skills than it is a knock on him, but I was never really checking for him that much

go listen to that dwyck verse. shit is classic

guru was nice. jeru never approached the amount of respect guru had.

that's just facts

work with other emcees showed his limitations. Like I said, this likely has more to do with how great Primo's production was than Guru, so not sure what your point is.

and nerds like you are exactly who he is addressing in the body of his post

AINT NO IFs about those Gang Starr Lps 2-5

I think I made it pretty concisely known

i never paid attention to the imagery of Preme suddenly being the in front on album covers. ill fact.

thanks for that post.

Thanks for that

BASE.

Indeed

a rapper?

Is he a top 10 emcee? No but Guru is def a good rapper.

...when I came on the internet in the mid-90's. I couldn't relate at all as a swede who had barely heard Freestyle Fellowship and was "still" digging regular stuff but the "cool" thing then in those collegiate Hip-Hop circles was rappers who had intricate wordplay and "clever" punchlines and multi-syllable flows. I remember people going crazy over J-treds saying "I got more presence than attendants in a class of scizophrenics" like "that is SO dope" and Canibus was extremely cool for a while before the Wyclef-fiasco with his debut. Meanwhile, rappers like Guru was pushed to the side and even considered wack with people saying that Primo was the only reason people cared which Bombastic eloquently explained above wasn't true.

People acted retarded in that era, saying that guys in Mystik Journeymen or isionaries were better than Guru... *SMH*

just like I never heard J-Dilla was a top producer until Quest made a post about him being the goat. then all of sudden the The Love Movement because super dope and LabcabinCalifornia became The Pharcyde's best album. Guru was always pretty much considered a dope MC, nothing more nothing less



<================================
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/4837778/william-moore-wwe-tackle-o.gif

as a fan of rap

.

....if anything GURU overshadowed Preem ....you have a better chance saying Pete Rock overshadowed CL, but even then you wouldn't be correct when it comes to the music

You have a point.

Also, I think everyone knows that Dilla, T3, and Batin weren't good rappers, but they still made good music....just like guru.

SV were GREAT rappers, GREAT.

just like Guru was GREAT, at rapping.

both show the different ways in which rapping is a craft/art form and can be manipulated to show the individual's strengths.

speak for yalls selves

i love SV Vol 2 as much as the next guy, but to claim ANYONE in SV (apart from Elzhi) was a great rapper is ridiculous.

out of the original members Baatin is fay and away the best rapper, when you look at the things he does with spacing and whatnot he's pretty incredible and has one of the most original styles you're going to find
Dilla was a good rapper as well (not great, but good) and T3 was a little above average
but as a group they were great at rapping together, playing off one another and making songs together
they're not superior rappers like some posters like to think of them as (don't get supablak started on that shit, he gets genuinely pissed off when you don't refer to Voodoo or Slum as above reporoach) but they're much more powerful as a group than they are as soloists or when isolated

...obviously Dilla was the talent even on the mic, and he got pretty good later on as well .

...and I know Guru said its mostly the voice.. but he was a lot more than just a smooth voice on the mic.. i think its a shame how people shit on the guy on OKP.. only here do i ever hear that shit too.. go figure

and know he was an INCREDIBLE song writer and crafted top to bottom great albums, plus the voice and chemistry with Primo

you're an idiot when it comes to understanding Slum or anything after 96 new york hip hop. i mean you think Outkast is "ok"

...not MOST but still, they exist and are not so few as to be irrelevant; I've read it several times over the years here and this thread is really no exception...

>and know he was an INCREDIBLE song writer and crafted top to
>bottom great albums, plus the voice and chemistry with Primo
>
>you're an idiot when it comes to understanding Slum or
>anything after 96 new york hip hop. i mean you think Outkast
>is "ok"


i don't like outcast at all... when did i say they were ok?? I do love slum.. but they were shitty MCs.. lots of great songs..but don't ever think those guys were talented MCs, Elzi never fit in because he was a beast, lol

.

guru is fiyah. nuff said!


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Guru wasn't that good a rapper. He wasn't bad or anything, but he wasn't great.

It was mostly the voice.

turrble

...or how about a freestyle. I'm not saying he didn't make dope music, or was bad at songwriting, but pure rap skills? Whatever dude, to each his own.

but he always brought it in album format, in fact in a way most rappers continuously fail at
he was a marathon rapper, the skill and potency in his work reveals itself over repeated listens and at length on albums

n/m

I won't say I'm well-versed enough to say he's THEE most, but he does get the stepchild treatment often.

Primo was good but he hadn't peaked yet, the production didn't have that timeless Primo feel yet. But you can argue that Guru might have been peaking around that time. Imo Guru had established himself as a top shelf mcee on there, after that album Guru started slowing the flow down sometimes and swagging out a little more. I could dig the slight change in approach because in my eyes he was already official. But if you started messing with Gangstarr on "Daily Operation" you might just think Primo's kinda carrying him.
_________________________________________

Lately I've had the strangest feeling.... that you were GOOOONNNNEEEE

I think that Guru was his best mc-wise by classic standards on "Step...". I noted when "Daily Operation" came out that he was slower, had simpler rhyme-schemes and even said some stuff that barely rhymed. However, I also think he became more personal flow/persona-wise on that record and onwise; on "Step..." he was kind of a NYC-battle-rapper, a bit more laidback and more in line with the "alternative"-trends at the time but still.

I also agree that Primo didn't really had his style down fully on "Step..." even if I guess there are hints; the strength of the beats rely more on the strength of the loops which, if you are familiar with the source-material, are pretty obvious (for the record, nothing wrong with that) for the most part.

On "Daily..." meanwhile was when he started to loop tiny fragments of riffs and breaks and just starting to sound more like *the* Primo even if it is still a bit transitional. Also, the drums on "Daily..." don't *knock* like they did later-I don't know if it was intentional due to their connection with so-called alternative/jazz-rap or if it was simply due to equipment/production-standards/studio/whatever. Either way, the sound isn't as "in your face" as the latter Primo-stuff and a bit more lo-fi. It's my favorite of their albums though...

He isn't over-rated or under-rated, he is rated at just the right level.


**********
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Royce by Em is in the conversation as well.

though I wouldn't say Treach is a better emcee, he's definitely dope.

is Treach more lyrical? yes, but Guru was a far superior writer and one of the best topical rappers ever. so, for me, Guru was a more complete emcee with a greater body of work, and i'm not saying Treach wasn't topical, not saying Naughty doesn't have a great catalog....but...




also, must of been high when i responded. for some reason i thought "overshadowed" was "forgotten"

>
>also, must of been high when i responded. for some reason i
>thought "overshadowed" was "forgotten"

I was about to ask,"Who exactly was Treach overshadowed by in NBN?" Not Kay Gee. Certainly not Vinnie. Glad you cleared it up.

Without the production on Gang Starr albums, I don't think I would rate him very highly. That's not a knock against him, there just aren't many (if any) hip-hop artists who had the level of production through 5-6 albums.

Guru was making albums with Solar?

he's still a great no matter what any of you say, his Gang Starr work can't be denied by anybody including you 'what have you done for me lately' assholes
only people that feel that way are Primo stans, and even they know what time it is

he was always just barely listenable to me. plenty of cringeworthy lines from dude. he had a dope voice but i almost never liked what he did with it. just my opinion

Primo..them Solar albums

Even greats like Cube, BDK, LL, etc have fallen off. It happens. I don't think anyone considers Guru an all-time great though.