so this just went up on Complex...

http://www.complex.com/music/2014/01/nas-it-was-written-better-than-illmatic

Much of the article's body is true and on point, but the conclusion is not. The article touches on how he had to change his style a bit to remain relevant, to continue being competitive within the vast NYC hip-hop landscape, and to avoid becoming stale. These are all true things. But drawing the conclusion that these things make IWW a better album, is wrong.

just disagree with his conclusion and that's fine

if you thought the complex piece by the white guy who prefers gangster tales & record sales was well written & argued a solid point...well...

i got some swampland for sale if u interested...

the article is right in that if Nas wanted to remain relevant and competitive, he had to change up his style. My point was that changing your style does not a better album make.

And I call it "stupid" because it's clear that the title of the article was a ploy to get hits and reads. I doubt he even believes his conclusion himself.

love em both though

<================================
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/4837778/william-moore-wwe-tackle-o.gif

nm

take a gander at his twitter name & profile pic to see what kinda herb wrote this

@dubmaxx

but overall, no. and i like it was written a lot.

>you could say that the rapping on iww is better

I don't think anyone has ever killed an album like that period.

He goes in for like 30+ verse and each one is just a thing of beauty from a technical stand point.

internal rhyme structure
cadence
and delivery

it's a rap clinic

but IWW is definitely a step up technically, as it should be
I never understood why people had a problem with that part of it, it's pretty amazing

It was. Nas' flow on IWW is unparalleled to this day. But that's where the argument starts. Most people don't believe that better rapping necessarily equals to a better album.

Alotta people are in love with Illmatics impact more than anything. The fact that somebody so young was rapping so well. The fact that so many established, talented produced came together on one project. same ole' argument we've been having for years.


But verse for verse? Its not even close.



The process is immaculate----->@SolidusShaz

vvv old me vvv
Yeah, yeah, I know, BUT I'M NICE, THOUGH!!! http://www.myspace.com/shazmusic

so nice, should read about it, EVERY-DAY!!!
http://shazmusic.blogspot.com/

but yeah his flow on that album is amazing.

n/m
______________________________________________________________________________

cscpov.blogspot.com

"There's a fine line between persistence and foolishness..."
-unknown

"To Each His Reach"

the intro and hook are weak/wack, but the song (verses and beat), shit, those = dope

And Nas explaining that he's a gun on "I gave you power".

Just let the songs speak for themselves.

It's such a lame way to introduce something that would've been twice as good had you let your listeners actually interpret that themselves. He does the same thing on Rewind.

n/m

both great in there own right

He always rhymes at a high level, but we haven't seen him rhyme at THAT level ever since. Rare form indeed.

************************

less about what he was saying. more about how he was saying it.

lol

lemme stop instigating haha

what he was saying was poisonous? are people that dumb?

> are people that dumb?

yes, yes...they are

I didn't even bother to read the article because I know exactly how these things go: frame an argument and then find reasons for it to be true. Classic bias based in wanting to be shocking and different.

Saying that Illmatic is the better album just because it's "supposed" to be is just as annoying as someone saying It Was Written is better solely because it sold more. I mentioned in another post that I revisited this album a few years back and realized how fucking great it is. At the time I was like "ahh this mofo is trying to be on that Mafioso shit..them Italians hate your Black ass!!". I never thought it was wack but I specifically remember having an argument with my cousin about how I liked "Soul On Ice" much better and that Ras was a better MC. I still like Illmatic better but I will agree that he stepped up his lyrical game on It Was Written and he flexed more styles than on his debut.

Sales aside (that never came into play in my thinking), I think It Was Written is more creative, and ambitious of a project and it reaches heights that Illmatic doesn't, due in part to its brevity, due in other parts just to Nas' maturing as a man and as an artist...


I think some of the status and praise given to Illmatic is based on some new york revival, hip-hop purist driven emotion...and if you take all that away and stack both albums up, It Was Writen is just a stronger piece of work

I got about a dozen sports analogies for this argument, but imma chill right here...lol

If you go 10 for 10 shooting layups, is that better than going 6 for 10 from the 3-point line?

You can argue it is and be right. You can argue it ain't and be right as well.


For me, there is a higher level of difficulty, creativity, artistry involved in It Was Written, as well as many other hip hop albums that I rate over Illmatic (think Outkast, Tribe...)

Illmatic is that 10 for 10 shooting layups. Its perfect...yes, but not difficult. Aquemini is difficult. Midnight Marauders is difficult.

Now depending on what you value in an album, you are gonna rank things differently. I wish people would be more upfront about their biases and why they rate things the way they do. I value lyrics vs I place more value in instrumentation...etc. I think it would expand the debate some...


I Grew Up On Booty Shake...We Did Not Know No Betta Thangs...

because in sports there are concrete numbers & winners/losers

art is not like that, it's much more subjective

i really dislike sports/rap analogies actually lol

that said, 10 layups is 20 points & 6 3 ptrs is 18 points

i also disagree that something having "more" in art makes it superior, in fact thats my whole point, being able to present a concise clear vision is, imo, more difficult than trying to serve many masters & leads to more purity in the art

also finally, yeah production is important to me & a key reason Illmatic is the superior album to me

And, not that we need to revisit this everytime either artist is mentioned but...this is part of the reason I've always preferred Nas to JayZ. Nas, whether he succeeds or fails, always seems to have a certain direction with his albums with a few exceptions. The tone, themes, lyrics all seem to tie together somehow. Jay has always been the artist who tries to please everyone with a song a piece each album, which is why I prefer Nas albums to Jay albums by and large. The few times he hasn't tried too hard to do that, is when he has made his best artistic statements. Reasonable Doubt, Blueprint for example.

Criticizing Illmatic makes a lot of folks wanna revoke your hip-hop card.

Like I said, I've been fighting this fight for like 20 years...

And in my opinion, the brevity doesn't add, it takes away.

Using the criteria of things that I value in an album, Illmatic, while great, just doesn't surpass some other more ambitious, conceptually superior projects, IMO.

I an overlook a misstep here or there if you tried something spectacular. Being perfect while being safe is not something I value as much...

10 for 10 shooting layups may be a few more points. 6 for 10 shooting threes is a more skillful, exciting performance...


I Grew Up On Booty Shake...We Did Not Know No Betta Thangs...

a different opinion in this particular case.

That said, I am 100% in agreement with you in that an artist should progress and grow with each release, which is why even though I think Illmatic is the better record, I was glad that Nas took the logical step forward in his career with IWW rather than just rehashing what gained him critical acclaim with the first joint.

I say this with a lot of artists, the most recent and prominent example being Kanye West. I loved his first three albums and have found his last three to be wildly inconsistent and pretentious. But, at the same time, I am VERY happy that he continues to grow and change rather than just rehashing what worked in the beginning and brought him success. Because of his ambition we've gotten gems like Runaway among the rough that was MBDPF (in my opinion, of course). He could have easily done what the label(s) wanted him to do and kept making songs in the vein of Get By/I Try/This Way/etc. and got that quick dough while never really doing anything interesting and flaming out quickly. I prefer the direction he took even if my thoughts on his recent output are less positive than my thoughts on his first 3 joints.

So yea - while I still think Illmatic is the far superior product, I can agree with you that I'd rather see an artist try and fail at moving forward, than see them rehash the same formula over and over again just because it worked. Which is why I prefer artists like Nas and Common over others who never changed it up and tried new things.

>
>If you go 10 for 10 shooting layups, is that better than going
>6 for 10 from the 3-point line?
>
>You can argue it is and be right. You can argue it ain't and
>be right as well.

It depends on how and when you missed those shots. In general you want to shoot a higher percentage shot and the worst thing a team can do is give up layups. If your jacking up 3's and messing up the flow of the offense and getting outside the realm of what you or your team do best then it's a detriment. That's what I think Nas did to some degree with that album. It's a good performance but Illmatic is better because he did what he does best instead of trying to do what Wu Tang, Biggie or G Rap do much better. It's your power forward taking 3's when he's a 36% shooter from behind the arch instead of pounding the paint where he shoots 65%.
>
>
>For me, there is a higher level of difficulty, creativity,
>artistry involved in It Was Written, as well as many other hip
>hop albums that I rate over Illmatic (think Outkast,
>Tribe...)

>
>Illmatic is that 10 for 10 shooting layups. Its perfect...yes,
>but not difficult. Aquemini is difficult. Midnight Marauders
>is difficult.

I don't think it's a higher degree of difficulty simply because they approach it from a different angle. Even if you think those albums are better it's not because what they do is more difficult especially since those artists aren't in the same lane as Nas. They wouldn't have made Illmatic and he wouldn't have made Southerplaylistic. And let's not act like what Nas did was some simplistic easy to do feat. Nas makes it look easy the way Tim Duncan makes hitting bank shots look easy but when others try that shit they look like Kwame Brown. A great lyricist much like a great athlete can make something difficult look easy to everyone else but it's not.
>
>Now depending on what you value in an album, you are gonna
>rank things differently. I wish people would be more upfront
>about their biases and why they rate things the way they do. I
>value lyrics vs I place more value in instrumentation...etc. I
>think it would expand the debate some...

For me an album with 10 great songs is always going to trump an album with 8 great songs, 2 ok ones and 3 skip worthy songs. Quality over Quantity with a bit of sub par performances is always the way to go.
>
>
>I Grew Up On Booty Shake...We Did Not Know No Betta Thangs...

And in discussions it often comes across as if i'm shitting on Illmatic, but just to be clear...

We are debating classics vs other classics.

Jordan vs Magic vs Wilt vs Russell and etc...

Not Jordan vs JR Smith...lol

I don't necessarily think Illmatic was easy. Nasir displayed a stupid amount of skill, but I DO think he grew in nearly all phases on IWW and took on more challenges

I don't think Illmatic was "simple", but I DO think albums like ATLiens, Aquemini, Midnight Marauders, Amerikkka's Most Wanted reach heights of musicality, social and political awareness and creativity that Nas had not yet reached at 18, but that he would eventually grow into


I Grew Up On Booty Shake...We Did Not Know No Betta Thangs...

While I wouldn't call It Was Written a classic I will say that in retrospect I can say it's a good album and I enjoy it a lot more than I did when it first came out.

>And in discussions it often comes across as if i'm shitting on
>Illmatic, but just to be clear...
>
>We are debating classics vs other classics.
>
>Jordan vs Magic vs Wilt vs Russell and etc...
>
>Not Jordan vs JR Smith...lol

I was thinking more like Tim Duncan vs Rasheed Wallace. Rasheed was really good but not in Duncan's class although he was flashier, more fiery, etc.
>
>I don't necessarily think Illmatic was easy. Nasir displayed a
>stupid amount of skill, but I DO think he grew in nearly all
>phases on IWW and took on more challenges

I think he may have been "coming out of his shell" a little more on that album. Feeling himself, etc. Probably a little more cocky/arrogant after dropping what many people referred to as an instant classic.
>
>I don't think Illmatic was "simple", but I DO think albums
>like ATLiens, Aquemini, Midnight Marauders, Amerikkka's Most
>Wanted reach heights of musicality, social and political
>awareness and creativity that Nas had not yet reached at 18,
>but that he would eventually grow into

I agree with this because I'm not one of those people that would argue that Illmatic is the greatest Hip Hop album or even debut ever. It's one of the greats but not the greatest.
>
>
>I Grew Up On Booty Shake...We Did Not Know No Betta Thangs...

zippity doo da

I Grew Up On Booty Shake...We Did Not Know No Betta Thangs...

http://nativescience.tumblr.com/post/7159666971/nas-it-was-written-piece

and still I believe Illmatic is the better album

iww (imo unfairly) has always been relegated to the shadows of illmatic, a REALLY good/classic album that has since swelled into an unscalable mountain off the strength of its own hype.

people who don't recognize it was written was an excellent album are sleeping.

It Was Written is the closest we will get to lyrical perfection over the course of an entire album

I'd like to see the albums that are better lyrically.

And I'm not opposed to there being an album that's better but it seems as though you're saying Nas isn't really as close to whoever you feel is the best.

>I'd like to see the albums that are better lyrically.
>

not just FTL, but I'd put Rakim's first three over IWW, there was just too much innovation and reinvention of lyrical technique over the course of all three of them to ignore them
there's others I'd name before it as well, like Kool Keith on Critical Beatdown, Kool G. Rap on Wanted: Dead or Alive (which is an obvious influence on IWW) or KRS on KRS-One
but IWW is significant in that Nas didn't reinvent the wheel lyrically, but instead took material that had been used time and time again and added another dimension to it by finding ways to make what was usually above-it-all material and made it seem personal
that's why I think Illmatic is a better album but IWW is his best emcee performance, even if I didn't get drawn in to all his stories


>And I'm not opposed to there being an album that's better but
>it seems as though you're saying Nas isn't really as close to
>whoever you feel is the best.

not in the slightest
but I've said before Nas wasn't my problem with IWW, sure there's some questionable song choices there but he delivered the goods on each verse-I don't think that much is disputable

>>I'd like to see the albums that are better lyrically.
>>
>
>not just FTL, but I'd put Rakim's first three over IWW, there
>was just too much innovation and reinvention of lyrical
>technique over the course of all three of them to ignore them

Listen, I'm not mad at people saying Rakim but I just think Nas took what those MCs did took the next level. And there's nothing wrong with that and that's what's supposed to happen. Jordan took what Dr. J did to the next level. Or some may say Jordan is a greater player than Kobe like Rakim is a greater MC than Nas but to me, IWW was Nas dropping 81.

>there's others I'd name before it as well, like Kool Keith on
>Critical Beatdown,

Nah man...nah

Kool G. Rap on Wanted: Dead or Alive (which
>is an obvious influence on IWW)

I love G Rap...always liked him more than Kane but the only dude from that era I'm not going to really argue with is Rakim. Nas passed all the others. Nas is just more versatile than G Rap.

or KRS on KRS-One

Nah man...nah. Lol. We've already had this conversation on here. The way I see it is: Rakim, KRS, G Rap. But I dont have KRS that high for his flat out lyricism. Dude is at times very basic as far as his rhyme structure and excels at his diction and delivery. I also love the self-titled but there are many albums I would name as lyrically better than that joint.

>but IWW is significant in that Nas didn't reinvent the wheel
>lyrically, but instead took material that had been used time
>and time again and added another dimension to it by finding
>ways to make what was usually above-it-all material and made
>it seem personal

This is what I'm talking about. And what you explained is the definition of reinventing the wheel. He took what people were doing and added to it and put his touch on it and in doing so improved upon it. This is what I mean by people giving more credit to the originators. For some reason in Hip-Hop it's seen as impossible for someone to be greater than that Rakim/G Rap/KRS/Kane era. Dyson didn't invent the vacuum but they made that shit better.

>that's why I think Illmatic is a better album but IWW is his
>best emcee performance, even if I didn't get drawn in to all
>his stories
>

I agree with this. There are a few things I would change about IWW.

>
>>And I'm not opposed to there being an album that's better
>but
>>it seems as though you're saying Nas isn't really as close
>to
>>whoever you feel is the best.
>
>not in the slightest
>but I've said before Nas wasn't my problem with IWW, sure
>there's some questionable song choices there but he delivered
>the goods on each verse-I don't think that much is disputable

Agreed.

>Listen, I'm not mad at people saying Rakim but I just think
>Nas took what those MCs did took the next level. And there's
>nothing wrong with that and that's what's supposed to happen.
>Jordan took what Dr. J did to the next level. Or some may say
>Jordan is a greater player than Kobe like Rakim is a greater
>MC than Nas but to me, IWW was Nas dropping 81.
>

I agree but with FTL and LTRHE Rakim won the chip, dunk contest and MVP all in the same year but doing it two times in a row


>>there's others I'd name before it as well, like Kool Keith
>on
>>Critical Beatdown,
>
>Nah man...nah
>

you can deny that all you want but his work on that album would be stellar if it came out today, much less in the late 8o's
the guy invented new techniques and patterns almost out of thin air, and when you think about the era as being the most lyrically fertile in the genre's history, that isn't a small accomplishment

>I love G Rap...always liked him more than Kane but the only
>dude from that era I'm not going to really argue with is
>Rakim. Nas passed all the others. Nas is just more versatile
>than G Rap.
>

he hasn't 'passed' anybody, that isn't what this is about
he's more versatile than G Rap but we're talking performance over an album, and his on WDOA is better than IWW in my opinion


>or KRS on KRS-One
>
>Nah man...nah. Lol. We've already had this conversation on
>here. The way I see it is: Rakim, KRS, G Rap. But I dont
>have KRS that high for his flat out lyricism. Dude is at
>times very basic as far as his rhyme structure and excels at
>his diction and delivery. I also love the self-titled but
>there are many albums I would name as lyrically better than
>that joint.
>

lyricism isn't about being complex, it's about how your write your verses
tons of people have complex verses but aren't lyrical; others write very simply and are extremely lyrical with their verses


>>but IWW is significant in that Nas didn't reinvent the wheel
>>lyrically, but instead took material that had been used time
>>and time again and added another dimension to it by finding
>>ways to make what was usually above-it-all material and made
>>it seem personal
>
>This is what I'm talking about. And what you explained is the
>definition of reinventing the wheel. He took what people were
>doing and added to it and put his touch on it and in doing so
>improved upon it. This is what I mean by people giving more
>credit to the originators. For some reason in Hip-Hop it's
>seen as impossible for someone to be greater than that Rakim/G
>Rap/KRS/Kane era. Dyson didn't invent the vacuum but they
>made that shit better.
>

that's not reinventing the wheel, that's putting different treads on the tire
innovation isn't about upping the guy that came before you, it's more about taking what someone else did and finding yourself in it, then moving it in another direction
if you're able to do that it isn't something that makes you automatically better than the other guy just because you did it
Nas' performance in IWW is incredible by any standard, but he didn't do enough to pass those guys on my list with it or anything else he's ever done, that's all (understand that I think that once you're a great then you're a great and that's it, and anything else comes to personal preference only)
if I were doing what you said then I'd tell you Caz, Mel and Mo Dee are no lower than top 3-which I don't believe while having all of them in my personal top ten

But the beats and theme on Illmatic is just another tier--not even comparable. Instead of Pete, Premier, Tip and Extra P, you have Trackmasters, Dre and the like. The increase in lyricism doesn't do enough to bring up the difference in the other half of the album: the music.

This isn't an indictment on It Was Written either--it is a strong record that has aged well--but rather another lens to look through in evaluating just HOW GOOD Illmatic is.

Illmatic is rugged and raw while It Was Written is polished.

They're both classic albums.

As to which is better I'd go with Illmatic but you could make the argument that It Was Written is better.

It's not a crazy argument at all.

"Nas kept it thug over squeaky-clean Trackmasters beats and even threw a couple jabs at Jay Z in the process"

I believe Nas mentioned any subliminal shots on this album were directed at BIG.

Were there actual shots at Jay-Z, or is this some revisionist "Jay-Z was always popular" stuff?

Even with Reasonable Doubt, which is a favorite of mine, I wouldn't have thought Jay-Z would be worth Nas targeting during this time.

And that's not to say I'm mad at anyone liking IWW more because I can see the view point but Nas clearly did not give a fuck about Jay while recording that album.

RD dropped a week earlier so they clearly were recording at the same time and Jay was a nobody at that point.

Any shots were aimed at Big I believe.

>RD dropped a week earlier so they clearly were recording at
>the same time and Jay was a nobody at that point.

I was pretty sure that was the case. Not only is it revisionist, it's hack journalism.

RD and IWW came out a week apart. Why would Nas be throwing jabs at a new nicca? SMH

http://www.complex.com/music/2012/05/the-making-of-nas-it-was-written/the-message

Nas: “I saw Jay-Z driving a Lexus with the TVs in them. I got rid of my Lexus at that point and I was looking for the next best thing. It wasn’t a shot at Jay but it was just saying that’s the minimum you gotta have. It’s not a shot at him but he inspired that line. It wasn’t necessarily a shot at him but because the song was a shot at everybody, he fell into that. But he definitely inspired that line.

>It wasn’t a shot at Jay but it was just saying
>that’s the minimum you gotta have.

My point is the writer is making it seem like Nas went out of his way to diss Jay. Jay wasn't really anybody at this point and not worth dissing.

Nas was merely referencing something in a video that was out, that's all. The current status of Jay-Z makes people look back at it as more than that.

in so many words, Nas says "it wasn't a shot at Jay, but it was a shot at Jay."

the writer said "Nas threw jabs at Jay." how was he going "out of his way" to make a point that Nas admitted to?

>in so many words, Nas says "it wasn't a shot at Jay, but it
>was a shot at Jay."
>
>the writer said "Nas threw jabs at Jay." how was he going "out
>of his way" to make a point that Nas admitted to?

The writer made it seem like Nas took a jab at Jay simply out of beef. Nas even denied that. That view is influenced by what would happen later.

Nas was referencing the video, bragging about being above what was hot at the moment.

He wasn't dissing Jay-Z because he was Jay-Z like the writer is presenting.

Guess you had to be in NYC to know Jay mattered at that time. From an outsider, Jay wasn't on the radar like that so I'm surprised at Nas for that one.

i spent time in Charlotte that summer & Jay was on the radio a lot more than Nas

I understand Jay had radio play but unless you were following Original Flavor, which most niggas down here weren't, you didn't realize Jay's position in east coast rap. He was just a new nigga to us.

im sayin tho

it was plenty of folks riding harder for RD that summer into fall ... Aint No was a big hit (prolly helped sella lot of that sdtrk too)

i mean, thisay be the only "round" i can say w/ confidence that Jay won, but he just did im sorry

overall tho im a "jay lost" dude jus like u, just not 1/2 the nas fan u are

How's is it that sales matter up until the point they work to Nas' favor?

All day long from Jay fans (and I understand you aren't so I'm not talking directly at you but) you hear how Jay is winning and how he's more relevant.

But here we have a situation where IWW clearly out sold RD upon first release and we get the flip flop. All of a sudden "Jay had bigger hit" "Jay was everywhere" "More people were feeling Jay" etc etc.

Shit just doesn't add up. I had people on here telling me If I Ruled The World wasn't that big.

How did the album sell 2 mill then?

I like RD and think it's clearly Jays best album. I'm not mad at saying it's better than RD even if I don't personally think it is.

when i say Jay won that round i specifically mean from an *artistic* pov (its clearly debatable but i always liked RD better) so sales don't matter

im just sayin overall that, yeah, nas sold more but jay was still poppin in the popular consciousness at the time

After denying for years that this line was aimed at Jay, Nas finally admitted that he was throwing a shot at him when Complex did their the making of It Was Written piece.

The video for "Dead Presidents" came out months before both It Was Written and Reasonable Doubt. Jay featured a Lexus with TV sets in the headrests in it.

15 years from now Kendrick will admit that he was dissing everyone on "Control".

on Chi-City. i know it's not really related, just wanted to say that. i never realized that was a shot a jay though.

to diss someone who has no connection to him at all? I always looked at that halftime line sideways too but I just can't connect any dots as to why Common would ever dis Nas. Is there something I'm missing?

For no reason too.

It's why I'm not mad at Cube for getting at him.

whether it was "hollerin, gruntin n*ggas" (presumably DMX/Ja Rule) or "12 monkeys on stage, hard to see who's the gorilla" (presumably 50 Cent or 100 other nameless rappers), or "Lil' WHO? Aw he the opening act" (all the Lil's and Youngs, etc).

In other words he would diss people he thought were wack for various reasons, but there was always clarity as to what he thought of them.

In this case, it's just naming Nas' song Halftime which I can't imagine anyone dislikes. And otherwise, what reason would Common have to diss Nas? And what was the diss anyway? "Break's over"? Nas wasn't on a break.

but as an album, it's not as good as Illmatic. I'm not mad at anybody who thinks it is though, as long as they don't hold that opinion based purely on contrarianism and can articulate their reasoning.


I'm not sure the writer of that Complex piece effectively did that. He did make one good point about the rhyme schemes and lyricism being as good or better than Illmatic, but after that it was all fluff and ramblings about "squeaky clean production" and Nas' Escobar persona.