When Nas took chances it never worked for him. Why? I mean, "You Owe Me", "You Want See Me Tonight", Untitled LP, Hip Hop is Dead LP and other "Against The Grain" attempts to make a statement. It seem like he always fall a little short unless he make his RAW Nasty Nas songs that we all seem to love. His commercial attempts or "concept" LP's always seem to not be accepted. Now, Nas is my favorite MC but it appears taking chances never jump off for him....or do they in your opinion?

peace

whenever he tried to jump on a track
with the hottest producers, it never worked.

partially b/c his fans expected to do "illmatic" again.
partially b/c he can't pick beats for shit.




as for the other chances he took,
they worked in a way.
there was some good stuff on "untitled" and "hip hop is dead."



but even that stuff isn't as good as his "nasty nas" persona.
he spits the best when he's in that mode.
and the beats he picks for that mode are always the best.


so really, the answer is
he's at his best when he's in grimey mode,
and also... when he's NOT in grimey mode... he just picks godawful beats, as a general rule.




>When Nas took chances it never worked for him. Why? I mean,
>"You Owe Me", "You Want See Me Tonight", Untitled LP, Hip Hop
>is Dead LP and other "Against The Grain" attempts to make a
>statement. It seem like he always fall a little short unless
>he make his RAW Nasty Nas songs that we all seem to love. His
>commercial attempts or "concept" LP's always seem to not be
>accepted. Now, Nas is my favorite MC but it appears taking
>chances never jump off for him....or do they in your opinion?
>
>peace

in the history of hip hop, following Canibus. Somewhere between It Was Written and l Am, Nas said "fuck a beat." lol

but people will jump in and pretend otherwise shortly.

Just wondering.

Edit...just because I didn't want to leave it at that and not only disagree but think that the opinion of him having the worst ear for beats is another unbelievable double standard fans hold him to.

I will not sit here and act as if Nas has the best ear because he had his fair share of questionable selections.

But the fact remains that if you add up all of Nas dope songs...he would have far and away more than other MCs and I'm talking songs of high quality.

Unreleased tracks...album bangers...the singles that worked.

He has an unbelievable catalogue of individual songs.

And that alone will kill the theory of his terrible ear for beats.

Nas' problem isn't his ear for beats, it's his executive producing on his projects and deciding what makes the record And what doesn't.

He also would benefit from a few less yes men and a few more guys to tell him whensometng isn't working.

But to say he flat out has the worst ear for beats ever is not only wrong but is ridiculous when you look at how many dope songs he has made.

Go to you iTunes and make a playlist of every dope Nas song including the unreleased material and see what I'm talking about instead of basing your opinion on just his duds and ignoring his great material.

I agree with your point overall as it's really listening to his albums as a whole that bugs me. Any given playlist of his best songs would eclipse the majority of hip-hop artists.

>"You Owe Me",

hit

>Hip Hop is Dead LP

single was a hit, right?

>His commercial attempts

"oochie wally"? "hate me now"? "if I ruled the world"? "one Mic"? "made you look"? "I can"?

were those not hits?

>"concept" LP's always seem to not be accepted.

folks didn't LOVE the joint with Marley?

the "untitled" one spent 33 weeks on the hiphop chart (peaking at #1)

check this: http://www.billboard.com/artist/nas/chart-history/36620#/artist/nas/chart-history/36620

I agree, I'm just talking about the masses saying these things. Hip Hop is Dead had 6 songs I liked alot.

Distant Relatives was dope to me as well.

To my other dude, I do like "nas being nas but I'm a selfish fan..lol

outside of the "nas lost" brigade nobody I've heard has aproblem with him

Illmatic gets all kinda accolades and set a high bar, if you don't do that (with similar overwhelming consensus) every time folks will throw stones

*shrug*

I agree. For me, I was in college when It Was Written dropped and I still think its a classic. The bootleg I AM is classic. His Lost Tapes show that his unreleased material is second to none in quality. I dont feel "Nas Lost". He is rich, a legend, respected, and has one of the best LP's in the history of the genre.

I thought "Hero" did better than that. a lot of people i know only know that song from Nas.

It blew up,
which was awesome,
but it was a surprise that was a single
let alone a hit.

>....was a single

the basic definition of commercial is "for sale"

By that standard every album ever released is commercial.

thats a big difference from just putting the album up for sale

do the double time flow.

but that song made me frisbee that CD upon 3 seconds of listen.
The beat was El Cheap-O as well.

WhenIstartedthis,alliwantedwascarsandcribs,likeotherrapartists'ssssssssssssssss

n/m

I mean, in 2002, during the height of the Neptunesy sounding beats, he puts out a single with a breakbeat sample that has a hook referencing shooting? And radio still played the shit out of that joint.

Yeah, that was a risk to me as well in terms of a single. It was "heat"...the streets loved it but radio did play it..

.

Redman/Busta Rhymes/Eminem
in that he's a damn good rapper, but as an artist he's eh. He tries harder as an artist than a lot of the other rappers that are just good rappers, and that shows (his attempts are rarely ever complete failures, they're just "alright").
While Redman and Busta Rhymes need people to produce good LPs for them (both of them seem to only make songs that are as good as the beat lets them), and Eminem needs a friend to tell him when his shit is actually fuckin' weak, Nas seems like he needs a good executive producer. If he had the vision/production level of MBDTF he'd easily come out with an album that people remember as well as his first two.

400,000 with a killer international tour

I'd say that one worked

----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

I would love to see him push further, but feel Nas has taken a good number of chances musically/artistically and there have been times it bombed and times it worked amazing. probably half and half. I'm not about to go through his discog but i think a good number of tracks on god's son and streets disciple saw him experimenting a bitconceptually and musically to great success..."heaven" "a message to the feds"...and then like mentioned above doing an album with Damian Marley...

IMO his experimenting factors into him being the GOAT for me.

But that said, I don't totally agree with you that none of those things worked for him. Some people already touched on some of my points but I have a few things to add so I'll try to go point by point.

>When Nas took chances it never worked for him. Why? I mean,
>"You Owe Me", "You Want See Me Tonight"

These didn't work critically with his die hards but they were successful in the mainstream. That said, they were awful, awful songs. And he certainly didn't fit on that style of song. He attempted to step outside his comfort zone(s) and as far as quality goes, he did fail. As far as what I think he set out to do with the songs (sell > quality) he succeeded.


>Untitled LP, Hip Hop
>is Dead LP and other "Against The Grain" attempts to make a
>statement.

These didn't fail at all, IMO. HipHop is Dead and Untitled both sold fairly well. They also produced some midstream hits. At the same time, they maintained a high quality IMO (I love most of both, only a few duds on each), and I think also the opinion of his truer fans who appreciate what he tried to do conceptually while still maintaining that certain rawness that most of us want out of Nas because that's where he sounds his best.


>It seem like he always fall a little short unless
>he make his RAW Nasty Nas songs that we all seem to love. His
>commercial attempts or "concept" LP's always seem to not be
>accepted.

This is what I meant by "victim of his early success". Illmatic worked because it was so short, he was able to stay in his most comfortable zone, which is that raw, ghetto poetry and narratives. Of course the production didn't hurt either. But let's be honest, as lyrically potent as that album is it's not as if he was switching up flows and changing from song to song. Most songs flowed much the same. Don't get me wrong, it's PERFECT in my opinion, I'm just saying it's not like he was switching flows from song to song. It was just so short that the boom bap and rawness of that album didn't have a chance to get stale. And also, again, the beats never get old.

But in my experience, most of the people who bitch and moan about Untitled and HipHop is Dead (whether it's because they are attempts at "concept albums" or because they aren't "raw" enough, which by the way isn't true at all...listen to Money Over Bullshit) are people that are absolutely fixated on Illmatic and will never ever be satisfied unless he drops Illmatic2. I think Nas lacks the dynamic personality and presence which would have allowed him to succeed in his attempts at mainstream hits, but I don't think he's failed quite like you put it. He's had his ups and downs like any MC ever, but I think he's had far far more highs than lows.

Oh...and Distant Relatives was dope as fuck too. I love that that was the road he took for his collaboration album. I saw them live at the House of Blues in Boston and they were incredible.


Now, Nas is my favorite MC but it appears taking
>chances never jump off for him....or do they in your opinion?
>
>peace

True. I was basically doing this thread because this is what I have heard people say over the years. I agree with your assessment and Nas has always been my favorite artist. I'm the dude that will argue anyone down that It Was Written and Lost Tapes are Hip Hop classics but thats just me. I like all of Nas LP's except Nastradamus to be honest with you.

>I like all of
>Nas LP's except Nastradamus to be honest with you.

>But in my experience, most of the people who bitch and moan
>about Untitled and HipHop is Dead (whether it's because they
>are attempts at "concept albums" or because they aren't "raw"
>enough, which by the way isn't true at all...listen to Money
>Over Bullshit) are people that are absolutely fixated on
>Illmatic and will never ever be satisfied unless he drops
>Illmatic2.

A lot of these people who bitch and moan would've been and would be the same ones complaining if Nas made Illmatic again.

Nas would've caught hate for doing the same album and not doing anything new.

Nas just can't win with some people. So it's whatever.

he tries to challenge himself into doing other things.
I don't wanna hear no Illmatic Nas in 2012. I hope he continues to push the envolope.

what chances did that turkey take exactly? he still got a career and we are talking two decades. problem for him is he ran out of hits and he pulled that Spike Lee mess of trying to having a shocken theme to sell otherwise hit and miss material and he got old real quickly.

truth is Nas was caught between going gold and Platinum with street cred and hip hop cred,however he craved what Lay Z has and Nas doesn't have that kind of appeal so he fell back.

He has been his own worst enemy,because nothing wrong with his lane,he just never was satisfied with being an Important lyricist and respected Artist.

he wanted the Pop Love and he never had that long reach.

There is some truth in what you said to a certain degree. I dont think Nas ever wanted to be Jay-z or anything b/c he is not really a commercial artist but I do think he would have liked to move more units and still be himself for the most part. I get your point though...he has always been somewhat trap in two hip hop worlds

the cross over attempt songs were obvious 1)

the guy was going Platinum before Jay Z got this thing straight, you know when Hard knock Life hit Nas was still going Platinum 2)

gotta hurt Nas to have to eating so much humble pie and having to play the side to an act who is a bigger commerical draw then you,though you know you can take him out on a battle, however audiences want an act that they relate to more and Nas tried that with hit and miss results 3)

a rival is you dancing toward the opposite what your side is doing and yet you are pushing them and they are pushing you.

"Ether" and "take Over" went directly at the stats and the impact those records weren't on some underground tip, that was about the Stats and where you were or stood. 4)

don't think for a minute that Nas's Ex Wife use to be down with Pharell and guess what? the song that flipped Jay Z in the early 00's was Produced by the Neptunes. coincidence? naw!! 5)

Nas came along when you kept it real and you also had to sell some records and that Elephant in the room has nagged and messed with him arguably more than any other Important RAPPER if you ask me. because he truly has been torn over that. if i make said record and only have a couple of bangers it goes gold, if I bring it Platinum and yet the cross over attempts still don't get me to that Next and why is that??? 6)

Nas would try. Would he fail? Yep but that fool will try.
I appreciate that about dude.

obviously its too young to call it that now.

you could say that that album was Damian Marley's, but Nas played his role very well and killed all of his verses.

indeed

i never really got into it, i need to listen to it more.

Not big on reggae personally, but there were a few standout cuts.

>Not big on reggae personally, but there were a few standout
>cuts.

I bought it first day as a loyal Nas fan, but I was ready and expecting not to like it. I put it in the cd player with a sense of dread and probably with a slight screw face.

And after the first listen, I actually DIDN'T like it that much, although it wasn't terrible and there were some highlights I wanted to hear again.

But on the second listen it just clicked for me. I think it was because I had now heard Nas over non-boom-bap/"East Coast" beats and had moved past the initial disappointment of him not rapping over the type of production I normally associated with him. I could judge the album on its own merits and was pleasantly surprised to find he had come with something dope and outside of his normal lane.
__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

And for the same reason, I'm not a big reggae fan at all. But this album just resonated after 2-3 listens. And same as you, my first listen I didn't really like it but there were 2-4 songs that I was definitely planning to go back to. Then after the next couple listens I was sold. Nas just sounds so natural over those tracks.

THEN my girl took me to see them live and it was over from there. They fuckin murdered that show.

>THEN my girl took me to see them live and it was over from
>there. They fuckin murdered that show.

And I've been to about 100 hip hop shows, seen
all the greats



----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Definitely in my top 5 too, and I've also been to a ton of shows.

I agree 100%

that resulted in me buying the album on my way out of the Wiltern Theater & bumping it on the way home loving the end result.

I can't really remember what my original expectations were for the album but to me that's Nas' best record since at least Stillmatic (partly due to it being a different lane for him but a cohesive project due to it being on Junior Gong's aural turf & fitting the concept of the 'Distant Relatives' themes).

>I can't really remember what my original expectations were for
>the album but to me that's Nas' best record since at least
>Stillmatic (partly due to it being a different lane for him
>but a cohesive project due to it being on Junior Gong's aural
>turf & fitting the concept of the 'Distant Relatives'
>themes).

I could agree with the Stillmatic comment. I have liked all his albums SINCE Stillmatic but I think this one was the most complete. I was definitely pleasantly surprised at how well he fit into the overall sound of the album considering, like you said, how different a lane it was for him. He (and they) executed flawlessly.

artists to grow when we've become accustomed to them making certain kinds of music....

Nas has often talked abt how fans and music critics alike say and write how "Illmatic" is one of the greatest records ever recorded in HipHop yet that cd probably still ain't even platinum...I know when it dropped it mainly got love on the underground HipHop circuit...and as a result Nas' follow up cd(s) to 'Illmatic' was an attempt at commercial success and he pretty stayed on that path until "Stillmatic."

Remember when Dr. Dre wanted to get away from doing 'gangsta rap?' how did his fanbase received that?

Outkast grew to become one of the most successful HipHop acts ever but in order to achieve that they had to leave a lot of their fanbase behind who weren't that receptive to "Atliens" and wanted to hear some more "Southerplayalisticadillacmuzik."

How many times have we heard Jay z bring up how ppl are still yearning for some more "Reasonable Doubt" type of music?

HipHop fans can be very narrow when it comes to their musical taste, especially when it involves their favorite artists making different types of music.

Look how Common was criticized for trying to do something different when he made "Electric Circus" which I thought was a very good, eclectic record.

So the problem is not w/Nas, it's with us the listeners....

Some of those projects while they weren't commercially successful were actually good records. I thought "Nigga" was a good concept cd.

I agree with everything you said....100%

Truth is, Nas just hasn't made good music when he took chances.

Best comparisons are Andre and Snoop. They made music that we NEVER expected them to make, especially when first hearing them, but it was still dope as hell even though it was completely different. With Nas, he's great when he's being Nas, but anything else just doesn't feel right.

and it sucked b/c try as he might, Common (and his ppl) just isn't good at making that type of music. it didn't sound good.

maybe that's Nas's problem. maybe he's 'limited' as an artist. he might be better off staying in 1 or 2 lanes. of course, the only way for him and his audience to find out was for him to take chances. so kudos to him for that.

same w/Common. kudos for going there on Electric Circus. it was a worthy effort that ultimately failed, IMO.

I agree about Common and Nas in regard to your comment. When they are in their lane, they are legendary. (Distant Relatives was DOPE to me though) but when they go left field, it doesnt flow well to me...

Boy sucks, Drake imo sucks...why? because its mostly disposable music. I have no doubt though that ppl will be listening to EC 20-30 yrs from now and will have a greater appreciation for it than ppl did when it was released (that record was released during the Ja Rule era so go figure)

the main and the same reason ppl criticized that record was also why they *praised* it...because it was an artist taking a chance and doing something different and to me art, whether in music or painting, is supposed to be abt pushing the envelope. Now, whether *you* or anyone else for that matter liked it or not is simply a matter of taste but it didn't suck.

I can name 7 out of 12 songs that I dare you to tell me they were bad songs...particularly when you juxtapose it to other HipHop records that dropped around that same time

-Ferris Wheel featuring Vinia Mojica (the intro was DOPE!)
-Soul Power
-The Hustle
-Come Close featuring Mary was a good record
-Star 69 featuring *Prince* and Bilal (Prince on a HipHop record?? that alone make it dope lol)
-Between Me and You & Liberation the most progressive song Com has made imo (and Cee Lo is great on this record as he is always w/Common)
-I am Music featuring Jill Scott I love this song...

Now, if you can make a record that has 7 good songs on it then I would hardly say the cd "sucks." lol


>and it sucked b/c try as he might, Common (and his ppl) just
>isn't good at making that type of music. it didn't sound
>good.

what??? you mean the same ppl who worked on 'Things Fall Apart'...Voodoo...'Mama's Gun'...'Like Water for Chocolate'...and '1st born 2nd' aren't good at making that type of music?
>
>maybe that's Nas's problem. maybe he's 'limited' as an
>artist. he might be better off staying in 1 or 2 lanes. of
>course, the only way for him and his audience to find out was
>for him to take chances. so kudos to him for that.

but no one can tell me that HipHop listeners aren't the least most sophisticated listeners of ANY genre, even moreso than hard core rock fans...it usually takes HipHop listeners a decade or two before they embrace something different in the music...and a group like 'Arrested Development' is a PERFECT example of that.

Remember how so called HipHop purists criticized them for SINGING on their records back in the early 90s because that wasn't considered "HipHop," nevermind the fact that they made good music, it was just most ppl were accustomed to hearing HipHop artists singing on records back then - fast forward 10-12 yrs later and damn near every artist began singing on their records and they are still doing it to this very day.


>
>same w/Common. kudos for going there on Electric Circus. it
>was a worthy effort that ultimately failed, IMO.

>I can name 7 out of 12 songs that I dare you to tell me they
>were bad songs...particularly when you juxtapose it to other
>HipHop records that dropped around that same time
>
>-Ferris Wheel featuring Vinia Mojica (the intro was DOPE!)

sux.

>-Soul Power

sux.

>-The Hustle

sux.

>-Come Close featuring Mary was a good record

sux mightily.

>-Star 69 featuring *Prince* and Bilal (Prince on a HipHop
>record?? that alone make it dope lol)

sux.

>-Between Me and You & Liberation the most progressive song Com
>has made imo (and Cee Lo is great on this record as he is
>always w/Common)

sux.

>-I am Music featuring Jill Scott I love this song...

cute.

>Now, if you can make a record that has 7 good songs on it then
>I would hardly say the cd "sucks." lol

that record sux, homie.

>>and it sucked b/c try as he might, Common (and his ppl) just
>>isn't good at making that type of music. it didn't sound
>>good.
>
>what??? you mean the same ppl who worked on 'Things Fall
>Apart'...Voodoo...'Mama's Gun'...'Like Water for
>Chocolate'...and '1st born 2nd' aren't good at making that
>type of music?

yup. they had several good/great ones in a row. then they laid this egg.

>but no one can tell me that HipHop listeners aren't the least
>most sophisticated listeners of ANY genre,

'least most', huh?

even moreso than
>hard core rock fans...it usually takes HipHop listeners a
>decade or two before they embrace something different in the
>music...and a group like 'Arrested Development' is a PERFECT
>example of that.

...AD sucked too. though 'Tennessee' is a classic.

>Remember how so called HipHop purists criticized them for
>SINGING on their records back in the early 90s because that
>wasn't considered "HipHop," nevermind the fact that they made
>good music, it was just most ppl were accustomed to hearing
>HipHop artists singing on records back then - fast forward
>10-12 yrs later and damn near every artist began singing on
>their records and they are still doing it to this very day.

i'm relatively well-versed in the musics in which Com dabbled on EC. so when i say that record sux, it's an informed opinion. it's not that i think the record sux b/c it has non-Hip-Hop references. far from that.

i just don't enjoy listening to Electric Circus as a whole. there are maybe 2 songs on it that i can sorta get into - 'I Am Music' and 'New Wave'. keyword: sorta.

again, i'm a fan of the Soulquarians style and several other albums they worked on back then. this is my least favorite of them all.

he just loses more of his initial Illmatic fanbase.

Take Illmatic out of his catalogue and he might be even more popular and willing to try out new things.

one
k. orr

>he just loses more of his initial Illmatic fanbase.
>
>Take Illmatic out of his catalogue and he might be even more
>popular and willing to try out new things.
>
>one
>k. orr

yeah, its hard to say..

I personally don't think its any one thing, but a combination of circumstances and not necessarily the same combination for each of the efforts you're speaking too.

He's had a ton of uneven albums released, while leaving some quality material on the cutting room floor in the process. I don't think he never quite met his A&R muse and frnakly for all his lyrical talent purhaps he's simply been trying to go to far to fast for his core audience.

You could be right. He has left waaaaaaaaaaaay too many dope songs unreleased and I never understood that.

That's exactly what it is.. the records sound so forced

>I personally don't think its any one thing, but a combination
>of circumstances and not necessarily the same combination for
>each of the efforts you're speaking too.
>
>He's had a ton of uneven albums released, while leaving some
>quality material on the cutting room floor in the process. I
>don't think he never quite met his A&R muse and frnakly for
>all his lyrical talent purhaps he's simply been trying to go
>to far to fast for his core audience.
>
>

Many of them do...

he's a skilled rapper, in terms of being able to write vivid lyrics and spit them one specific way, but he can't write hooks, he can't pick beats and he's generally inept at switching his delivery out of the 85-105 tempo range. people can bark about "illmatic" and unfair expectations all they want, but the simple fact is that if he was good at those things, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Interesting points...valid debate there....no doubt

is 104. But most songs faster than that? He drowns

>he's generally inept at
>switching his delivery out of the 85-105 tempo range.

that's a pretty wide-range and you can accomplish so many different style of beats and delivery within that tempo range.

but why would I expect anything else from you?

As a writer, he has few peers but he tends to go off in a million different directions when left to his own devices. Say what you want about Jay but he's never rapped as Edward G. Robinson for a full song. At his worst, I sometimes wonder if Serch's role in the creation of Ilmatic is under-recognized.

Thats a valid point and yes, that song was horrible. A great executive producer would have never let that happen..lol

So we know he can do it, he just doesn't now for whatever reason.

************************

Message To The Feds, Serious, Purple, You're Da Man, even Hero all had him spitting flows that were outside his usual space.

and he sounds pretty amateur on "message to the feds." my point is that while guys like cam and jigga are great at adapting to every tempo, nas has usually been awkward outside of traditional boom-bap cadence.

I agree that at times it sounds forced

I forgot about those...he did change it up some on those tracks

>switching his delivery out of the 85-105 tempo range.

i stand by that. pure poet. and when others try to go in HIS lane, they are straight cellophane and i end up hating them.

lol...yeah, I guess he did take a chance with Kelis. She hot though..lol