Or not listening just because we think they're soft or an asshole?

Seriously the whole idea of riding for someone because we like their personality or "swag" is something I expect from a 15 year old girl reading Black Beat (is that still around?) not a grown ass man or even a teenage boy. I've seen more and more males over the years bringing non musical elements into their fandom and honestly it's getting embarrassing. Becoming giddy over an interview your favorite artist gives is the quickest way to emasculating yourself.... consider this a PSA if you like.

Of course we identified with some artists more than others but we didn't let it sway our opinion of the music they were making... nor did we become consumed with their private lives. Prince was an asshole that wore panties to many of us but that didn't stop us from bumpin his jams... We had love for Bootsy and Rick but when they dropped some bullshit we weren't defending it based on some man-crush we had. Cats today act like being a fan of a musician/rapper/singer is the same as supporting their favorite sports team... even then most sports fan are more objective than these jokers. I'm sure the internet is playing a role in this male shift toward more gossipy aspects of the music world but that still doesn't excuse the bitchness of this shit.

Anyone else in here bothered by this shit?
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ppl ride for the celebrity and the persona they project
more than the music/film/sporting prowess etc

i think ppls self esteem and validation is more tied up in artists
that they believe to be representations of themselves than ever before


acceptance of artist by others = acceptance of self by others
(or at least an idealised self)

Depending on the role you're playing any way... I don't think that's changed as much as the music scene has.

I have an idea what really set this all up but I'm going to hold off on that right now.
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i just think there's so many more ways to get that persona across,
more channels dedicated to music, internet web streaming,twitter,
that it can overshadow the music easier than before

Not sure if this strays too far from your point, but personally, I have always struggled with context, especially when it comes songs vs music videos. Music videos often provide a visual context for an artist. For instance. There are songs I would have hated, but after seeing the artist's video, I got hooked on the song. I believe this is due to a visual connection. I am relating this as I could be led to believe that SEEING an artist who's music you didn't enjoy initially, whether they are interviewed or simply in a music video, might change the way you listen to the music the next to you hear it. Based on the visualization and context you recall of the artist. The same works in reverse. I've really enjoyed songs, until I see the video or perhaps hear an interview with the artist, and that ruins the experience of listening to that song in the future.

My apologizes, as I'm prob not explaining this well. Perhaps I'll come and reply with a more thought out response.


lurkin since 1999. werd.

The reason why I say this is cause most artists don't live up to what their music is about especially when it comes to content, with r&b artists more than half of their music isn't written by them or has similar personal views as them, it's just music for the listener, even when it comes to gospel/christian music you'll be surprised that those artists are not always as relegious as you think they are.

Anyway, with rap music, how many of us should truely believe every thing & story a rapper rhymes about, maybe when you're young you probably believe it but as you get older or just start to realize and put two & two together, it's no way 90% of the rappers are living the lives they portray in their fantasy world of hood-rich glamour, glitz, and downs & outs that they so-call get into daily.

I think what happens is we get into becoming a fan of certain artists and soon get wrapped up in their personal lives when they're on a good track but as soon as it gets rocky we can't let go that bond that ties them to their music when it should've never been there to begin with but that's how some artists become celebrities and bigger than their music.

"Anyway, with rap music, how many of us should truely believe every thing & story a rapper rhymes about, maybe when you're young you probably believe it but as you get older or just start to realize and put two & two together, it's no way 90% of the rappers are living the lives they portray in their fantasy world of hood-rich glamour, glitz, and downs & outs that they so-call get into daily"
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bitchery is at an all-time high

I mean A&R types these days will ask you before you even let hem hear a note of music "So what's your STORY? Because if you don't have a good one we can't market you."

I think its partially due to the fact that the physical recorded medium is making no $$$ for the record companies now, so they sell an artists personal life and legend because music itself isn't the commodity it used to be.

The Lowest Common Denominator of society has always been a visual culture, whereas music speaks on a deeper level, and most just don't go that deep anymore...The eyes deceive and that's why people have grown to accept and love the bullshit.

I mean I was always insulted by shows like "making of the band" and all that...it was like the industry just going "look, this is what we really do...take marginally talented people that have "the look" and polish their terds into the "music" you fools buy from us."
and people eat the shit up..."yea so and so can't sing for shit but she is the cutest one on the show and is so nice...I hope she gets a record deal"

ok...i'm gonna leave this post alone before I start getting even more bitter...

It's just that it seemed to be more of a way to sell to females... the way males are buying into this is where the change is.
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It is what it is. What can you do?

"attitude" or "swag" of Leadbelly up to Muddy Waters and Howling Wolf.

As long as show biz exists, people were locking in on artists' personalities. Obviously Miles was a big example of that.

Blues
RockNRoll
Punk
Hell even Gospel
Even Reggae - how many white Reggae artist tried and failed cause of that lack of personal connection.

I totally hear what he's saying tho. However from Al Green and hot grits, to the Beatles and their drug use - it's always been there.

Graceland for ex.

TV and album covers and magazines ushered it in. Elvis for instance. Not that Elvis was bad musically, but what they were selling with Elvis was almost as much about his good looks and image as about his music. I don't think it was just the female audience that was dictating that approach. You may feel they were more responsible for it than men, but ultimately we all like looking at people that are attractive (even if not necessarily sexually attractive to us in particular) more so than people that are ugly; we all would rather feel like what we are listening to makes us cool than listen to the stodgy, boring, limp music of our parents (obviously I'm talking more about teenagers than adults, but teen listening habits tend to set tastes for a lifetime).

It may have increased over the years because of MTV, YouTube, the general increase in media exposure, etc. The culmination of trends in technology and pop culture mean that the image and looks side of an artist is much more present than ever before, and music acts almost like a soundtrack to that image rather than the way you want it to be, with the image just supporting the music or not mattering at all. But the overall thrust of my argument is this: it's not new, and its increasing importance was probably inevitable with the direction media and the surrounding tech went. I'd also argue that people are more honest about it now; before we were pretending it was all about the music when for 99% of people, it clearly wasn't. The honesty doesn't really bother me. It's just another way that we've become more transparent about our role as consumers (see also: people in The Lesson trumpeting sales figures rather than artistic merit).

On a side note, the extremely anti-female nature of this whole thread bugs me. It's really not the fucking apocalypse if men have feelings and shit.

That's the only direction I can see you taking it beyond what others have said. There is something to be said about rap'sinfuence on this, as indeed rap really facilitated vicarious listening. But remember when LL had his shirt off? That was still aimed at the ladies.

Perhaps this can be attributed to general social insecurities which have been nurtured by a media that constantly bombards us with messages of self doubt. I mean remember ruff ryder chains. Chains for dudes to buy. Of course before that was Wu-Wear. These things whent beyond mere merch because wearing them was supposed to associate you with the crew. You're just as hard as them. Posturing. These things started taking precedant. The music you listened to being reflective of not what you like musically but *who* you were.

________
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█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
http://concretesoundsystem.com
The Underbelly - http://bit.ly/f5BmBR
RIPL - http://bit.ly/e5wzxn
Read me write - http://themoshi.tumblr.com/

I see where he's going if he's saying there is more of a push for untalented - image only artists. i would argue that they have always existed - The Monkees for example, and every TV star from Don Johnson, PhillipMichael Thomas to Tootie making a record. Maybe this is just a Puffy post. Cause if we are to say rap and it's lowest common denominator attributes I would start there. I know he's NOT the start - but me personally I would start there.

well at least two of them were

But again those type of acts were usually directed at females and teenagers. We got grown ass men now getting giddy over shit their favorite rapper says or does.
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yeah it's true it's true.

ya know I think this actually started with Tupac.

Although rappers were everywhere - BEt, MTV, etc. it was Pac who stirred up the personal life controversy over and over again.

First it was the Jaywalking/police brutality case.
Then it was random shootings/fights happening at shows he was head lining, the ATL cop shooting, the rape case, the Quad studio shootings, the beatdowns at Deathrow, the death threats to Biggie on record _ and so on. Then Vegas.

Before Pac, most of us just knew rappers were 'chilling' but that's about it. I mean sure you had the Slick Rick incident, LL getting shot at in NC incident, the PE-Prof Griff incidents that were not musical moments making headline news but Pac's shit was happening over and over again.

It seemed after Pac rappers were intentionally doing dumb shit to get rumors started - storming video shoots, shoot outs at radio stations, anything to be the top thug. The coonery kept going and boom birth of a nation.

People started the talking and the gossiping.

Cause it's out of control right now. My man was saying the other day it's like ppl are more into the movements nowadays than the music. And I'll be damned if an interview makes me like an artist. I like an artist because their music is good period. I know most of my heroes in music are assholes. All these cheerleaders need to pipe down.

people going to latch on to something

Now if I say people should be fervent church goers/Christians, y'all will say I'm a bible thumper, etc.

but, if some other religious persuasion comes along.......

^^^^^^^^^

Whaddup Man!

Ay fool! This is your official charter lurker here. 87,923 lurks

Yes that is correct.

You still in the A homie? I saw ur comps in Moods a few times, what's good?

check yo inbox

it's a consequence of the "style over substance" generation of music....

in recent times a person can have a certain so-called swag, or image or style...and THAT becomes the determinating factor of whether they are considered good or talented....not the fact they could sing....not the fact that they made funky music...or could rock a stage.... but do the fit the suit so to speak.... Do they fit the Johnny Bravo suit..and if they do..that's more important than anything else..

I'll also add that the lack of strong male figures in the home and the Black communities plays a part in this too. You mentioned Rick James and Bootsy .....they didn't have to carry the mantle for Black manhood because there was a concept of Black manhood within the Black community that was accepted whether coming from a 2 parent home or not.... You had single mothers, but you stil had the concept of manhood that was defined and accpeted by the masses...

now today you don't have that. So any clown that has an album or a video can be promoted as the current example of Black manhood, and the youth don't have another frame of reference...so these guys take on a larger roll in their lives than they really should. That's why they ride so hard for these guys...beyond just their music. Plus add the media genereration of the internet where now the line between reality and fantasy is blurred.... there is no distinction between truth and falsehood....so a guy could go on tv or make records saying anything they like...pretend it's true..and the youth just accept it as reality.

like you said...you could accept that from a 15 year old, but grown men doing it?? that's straight backwards.... It's the lack of Black manhood really...the youth isn't supposed to lead...you got grown men following this backwards youth culture like their children themselves.....

>
>
>like you said...you could accept that from a 15 year old, but
>grown men doing it?? that's straight backwards.... It's the
>lack of Black manhood really...the youth isn't supposed to
>lead...you got grown men following this backwards youth
>culture like their children themselves.....


Yep, people don't see it, but you're SUPPOSED to grow old. It's a blessing to mature. But you got 40 year olds pretending to be 30 year olds, and everybody and his mother calling themselves "Lil This" or "Young That". Every other group or collective is "The so-and-so Kids".


and anytime somebody says something REMOTELY questioning all this nonsense and immaturity ( musically and otherwise), the reply is always "you're just old". Ain't NO way I'm about to look to a 22 year old to guide my tastes in ANYTHING....

Fuck all that. I'm a Grown fuckin' Man.

I can't WAIT until some of these "young dudes who know everything" cats in here get old. We'll see how shit works out THEN. We used to clown the "old guy in the club", but the way THESE motherfuckers around here refuse to mature and grow up? The club is gonna be FULL of old motherfuckers, listening to shit that 'knocks in da club'...

**edited for spelling*

I think it happened once people in Hip-Hop started to identify as a fan of a certain artist's crew.


Meaning, once Posse's came into play, Fans felt that they had the right to 'belong' to that crew*. So naturally, whatever THOSE guys liked or hated, you had to attach yourself to their philosophy. Meaning, if Thug MC hated MC Mellow, YOU, as a member of the 'ThugMafiaFamilia' had to hate him too. And if Thug MC pointed out that MC Mellow liked to eat Vegan meals, and made fun of it, YOU had to make fun of it, as well as clown anybody ELSE who was a bitchassmotherfucker that ate Vegan meals.

So yeah, once artists made their likes and dislikes about other artists public, Fans felt the need to jump in.



*- and in my opinion, there's NOTHING more ridiculous than fans naming themselves as part of an entertainers 'crew'. He will NEVER meet you OR acknowledge your presence. I've seen cats wearing shit like No Limit and Ruff Ryders medallions as if they were in the group. And there was s a dude in my neighborhood who had "Dipset" on his car. Negro, if you live around the corner from me, you ain't kickin' it with the Diplomats.

>*- and in my opinion, there's NOTHING more ridiculous than
>fans naming themselves as part of an entertainers 'crew'. He
>will NEVER meet you OR acknowledge your presence. I've seen
>cats wearing shit like No Limit and Ruff Ryders medallions as
>if they were in the group. And there was s a dude in my
>neighborhood who had "Dipset" on his car. Negro, if you live
>around the corner from me, you ain't kickin' it with the
>Diplomats.

...I couldn't stand how folks would get so wrapped up in a rap group or crew that they start claiming them as if they're down. Niggas gettin' tattoos of the group, yelling out that crew's call, naming their business after the crew's label (trust me, that has happened), cats' whole personality is based on that crew. I have always considered that as wack. SMH.



Since 1976

http://owni.eu/files/2010/12/bent3.jpg
http://owni.eu/files/2010/12/bent18.jpg

>...I couldn't stand how folks would get so wrapped up in a rap
>group or crew that they start claiming them as if they're
>down. Niggas gettin' tattoos of the group,


Every now and then I see a dude on the subway with a WuTang tattoo. I'm tempted to ask him if he's regretting it, or thinking about having it removed.


yelling out that
>crew's call, naming their business after the crew's label
>(trust me, that has happened)

There's a "No Limit" barbershop/clothing store AND a "Ruff Ryders" Motorcycle/Car club on my side of town.

, cats' whole personality is
>based on that crew. I have always considered that as wack.

as Hell.

to the point of saying "my homeboy's album is comin out tomorrow!" all day those two artists are all he wants to listen to....i get the J Cole love, sorta, cuz cole is from the same city we live in, but it's overboard,,,dude is basically a streetteamer, but i like that he loves his fav artists THAT much, it's interesting...

I guess I see your point but Metal has had some of those same things you pointed out about Hip Hop long before Hip Hop existed. So did Punk and Rock N Roll. If this type of attitude or behavior annoys you that's one thing but you can't act like Hip Hop introduced that type of mentality to the masses because that's just not true. This just reminds me of when my uncles would get together to complain about "nigga shit". Basically how fucked up niggas are and how we do shit that nobody else does when the reality is if you pull back and really look at things objectively EVERY group has some of the same things going on in some segment of their community. Metal fans have long named themselves after their favorite bands. I know a ton of white dudes with tats of their favorite bands, plenty of dudes name their kids after their favorite rock hero (how many little white kids are named Elvis or Lennon?) and let's be real...can you say that anyone in Hip Hop is more fanatical about their music or music artists than rock fans? White folks made up the term "Rock God", "Guitar God", etc. I just don't see how you can act like this is something specific to Hip Hop. If having a Wu Tang tat makes you immature and a "retard" then why doesn't having a Ramones or Sex pistols tat?

>I guess I see your point but Metal has had some of those same
>things you pointed out about Hip Hop long before Hip Hop
>existed. So did Punk and Rock N Roll. If this type of attitude
>or behavior annoys you that's one thing but you can't act like
>Hip Hop introduced that type of mentality to the masses
>because that's just not true. This just reminds me of when my
>uncles would get together to complain about "nigga shit".
>Basically how fucked up niggas are and how we do shit that
>nobody else does when the reality is if you pull back and
>really look at things objectively EVERY group has some of the
>same things going on in some segment of their community. Metal
>fans have long named themselves after their favorite bands. I
>know a ton of white dudes with tats of their favorite bands,
>plenty of dudes name their kids after their favorite rock hero
>(how many little white kids are named Elvis or Lennon?) and
>let's be real...can you say that anyone in Hip Hop is more
>fanatical about their music or music artists than rock fans?
>White folks made up the term "Rock God", "Guitar God", etc. I
>just don't see how you can act like this is something specific
>to Hip Hop. If having a Wu Tang tat makes you immature and a
>"retard" then why doesn't having a Ramones or Sex pistols
>tat?

Stop making sense! This is about the lack of male role models in the modern black family!!!!!!!!

I think a lot of people have voids. Rather than look inside, they would rather look at the next man and hero worship and cheer lead someone successful. And it's success by any means necessary.

A younger dude I knew was talking about how Usher is one of his fav artists and he didn't care for his last album. He especially complained about OMG but he was happy that the single did well for Usher. I'm thinking, why would you be happy your favorite artist is having success making music you don't like? He'll be more likely to make music of the same vein. But this kid's mentality was success is all that matters so I didn't dig too deep.

of course this is all about Odd whatever the fuck there name is *rolls eyes*
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but I commend you for your bravery sir.

and before music was recordable, it was likely even more pronounced.

CRY ABOUT IT.

Fandom encapsulates more than just music. ALWAYS has...Why construct limits on how others should express their appreciation??

Cause being a fan of music has ALWAYS been more than appreciating the sounds that come out of the speaker.

I can't figure out why folks get mad at what young people do, especially when they did it as young people themselves.

It's like me saying something about that hippity hop being too coarse and vulgar, while I still got 2 live crew and nwa in my old man ipod.

one
k. orr

people liking an actor because they felt the character he played at some time (even if the actual acting was subpar)...

even though I find it confusing at times myself its quite hard to separate personality from musical talent in hiphop especially since charisma and presence on the mic are seen as part of the equation that make a good emcee...

Now mind you I don't really care if men nowadays don't act the same way their fathers did, in fact I'd find it boring and unfortunate if they did.

But you're right, cats are protective about their favourite rappers. The first time I remember this happening was Tupac. I mean prior to Shakur men straight deified Rakim, KRS, Cube, Chuck Melle Mel and them, but those discussions were all on technique and controversies in songs, no one knew about those rappers lives, shit I didn't even know their real names, and didn't care to back then.

Tupac got discussed differently. He was sacrosanct even while alive, and I think he established a template for the way you like your favourite rapper: unwaveringly. Rappers like Jay, em, and Kanye benefitted from that I feel.

Also tho, cats forget that rap, like comedy clubs, is mostly populated by beta males. This music was a compensation for some deficiency, social or physical. Some of the personas were grand - King Tee, Africa Bam, Slick Rick, but there were just as many rappers who were jokesters, or lookin for love, or whatever. The 90s I feel had a lot of beta males like De La, Tribe and Pharcyde even Redman's best songs are him playing up being a schlub. Rappers who are this relatable are hard to ride for in that stannish way you speak of. Alpha males tho, they got pushed to the forefront by the Major labels in the late 90s it seems. And i feel THAT is what Master P lucked into: that raw, stupid boyish devotion that death row had for a while. I feel like the main rap stars this past decade were all shades and bombast, whether down south or NYers like Dipset. Just being an everyman rap group like Slaughterhouse is risky nowadays. A&Rs and the such seemed to only push assured A type rappers, maybe for the fans they engender, who were open to brand marketing ( no one would have bought a tribe called quest vitamin water, but it fit for 50 cent).

The other part of this is that I feel teen rap fans are the first rap fans whose mothers actually like this music, and know rappers and songs. I think young men might be getting their attitudes towards music more so from their mothers, who also were drawn to the new alpha male rappers of the late nineties. Perhaps this is another effect of Tupac, but that might be reading too much into it. This last theory might read like bullshit, but I think the big unwritten story in the last thirty years is simply black women being paid and educated at a more accelerated rate than their male counterparts. Any UN field worker will tell you, change the women of a country, you just changed the culture.

you're twisted.

The principles underlying this kind of propaganda are extremely sim­ple. Find some common desire, some widespread uncon­scious fear or anxiety; think out some way to relate this wish or fear to the product you have to sell; then build a bridge of verbal or pictorial symbols over which your customer can pass from fact to compensa­tory dream, and from the dream to the illusion that your product, when purchased, will make the dream come true.

"We no longer buy oranges, we buy vitality. We do not buy just an auto, we buy prestige." And so with all the rest. In toothpaste, for example, we buy, not a mere cleanser and antiseptic, but release from the fear of being sexually repulsive. In vodka and whisky we are not buying a protoplasmic poison which in small doses, may depress the nervous system in a psychologically valuable way; we are buying friendli­ness and good fellowship, the warmth of Dingley Dell and the brilliance of the Mermaid Tavern. With our laxatives we buy the health of a Greek god, the radi­ance of one of Diana's nymphs. With the monthly best seller we acquire culture, the envy of our less literate neighbors and the respect of the sophisticated.

In every case the motivation analyst has found some deep-seated wish or fear, whose energy can be used to move the consumer to part with cash and so, indirectly, to turn the wheels of industry.

Stored in the minds and bodies of countless individuals, this po­tential energy is released by, and transmitted along, a line of symbols carefully laid out so as to bypass ra­tionality and obscure the real issue.

Aldous Huxley - Brave New World Revisited (1959) - from "The Arts of Selling" chapter.

This applies to hip hop, the music industry in general, anything that is being sold to the masses, & unfortunately governments too.

...y'all tripping writing these mini-theses in support of the post.

I haven't noticed this trend at all.

I can't really think of a time in modern pop culture history that men didn't idolize certain dudes and their image. You don't think all of those guys who were insane Beatles and Elvis fans were that way? They dressed like them, know everything there is to know about their wives, kids, what type of gear they play, etc. Maybe you could say it started with Rock N Roll and just kept going with Punk, Hip Hop etc but then when I think about people were obsessed with the cool Jazz Musician and the bad ass country singer so this certainly isn't a new thing.

Cause when people like something they speak on it.

I know people wanna blame hiphop -

but Funkadelic, Ohio Players, were all crews to some extent.

I hear what your saying though.

It goes both ways - some people like artists merely cause of the flash in the pan, suscribing to a paid for hype by some label.

If this is an Odd Future post - I would say it's not fair. Honestly and I'm totally down for Old Pro, but I would say that only cause hey they created their movement out of nothing - kudos. I'm not a huge fan of their music but I love their attitude.

*shrugs*

good post either way
daps

No where in this thread have I said images in music haven't always played some roll in the popularity of an artist. But spending as much (if not more) time nurturing an image instead of establishing yourself musically is a sea-change from where we were 30 years ago. Rick James & George Clinton didn't just come out as the characters we'd know them later as. Acts like that spent years working on and defining who they were musically and then dressed the product up image wise. Today the image is where the focus is right out of the box... that can't do anything but hurt them musically. It's like spending all your time planning your album cover and then finally getting around to recording the content.

As for the people in here that want to make this into an old man rant... whatever. As much new shit as I ride for most of you should know better than to take such a lazy approach towards my posts... But y'all gonna do what you do. If you can't see there is a valid conversation to be had here I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you otherwise.
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>Rick James & George Clinton didn't just
>come out as the characters we'd know them later as. Acts like
>that spent years working on and defining who they were
>musically and then dressed the product up image wise.

..UNTIL they created those characters.

And it's not as if today's artists don't also spend years toiling in the dark until they finally come into an image that clicks with the audience.

> Today
>the image is where the focus is right out of the box... that
>can't do anything but hurt them musically. It's like spending
>all your time planning your album cover and then finally
>getting around to recording the content.

This is a big assumption that is being offered as fact without much basis to support it.

>..UNTIL they created those characters.

How is this contradicting what I said? Creating an appealing package is all part of the process... but it's step two not step 1 or 1a.

>And it's not as if today's artists don't also spend years
>toiling in the dark until they finally come into an image that
>clicks with the audience.

You're talking about finding an image and I'm talking about finding a sound and then refining your image. I mean I'm sure you can find a name or two that went about it that old way but for the most part there aren't dues being paid the way George, Rick, EWF, etc paid them. You and I both know acts aren't given nearly the time they used to be given. It's pretty much inherent on an artist now to have the image ready to go from jump or there may be no second chance.




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>You're talking about finding an image and I'm talking about
>finding a sound and then refining your image. I mean I'm sure
>you can find a name or two that went about it that old way but
>for the most part there aren't dues being paid the way George,
>Rick, EWF, etc paid them. You and I both know acts aren't
>given nearly the time they used to be given. It's pretty much
>inherent on an artist now to have the image ready to go from
>jump or there may be no second chance.


You got cats grinding on the mixtape circuit for years before making it. Cats doing their thing on YouTube. Hustling on their local scenes. Working as ghostwriters...

The fact that a dude blows up "out of nowhere" on Tuesday doesn't mean he just started rapping on Monday.

Selling image and how we are consuming it

I don't mind having the conversation we're having here... but the focus originally was on the importance of image vs music with non-teenage males.

But to your post... if you really want to equate a rapper putting together various mix tapes with acts touring the old Chitlin' Circuit and West coast venues like the Lions Den we're pretty much seeing things through different prisms.
_________________________________
Reunion Radio Podcasts
Bringing Together Five Decades of R&B/Funk/Soul/Dance

http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/

Latest episode- Slave Tribute (RIP Mark L. Adams)

>But to your post... if you really want to equate a rapper
>putting together various mix tapes with acts touring the old
>Chitlin' Circuit and West coast venues like the Lions Den
>we're pretty much seeing things through different prisms.

I'm not going to say that they are *exactly* the same thing, but then again... why should they be?

In any case, I don't think that we're talking about different things. You're suggesting that cats look for an image before they develop a sound and I'm saying it's not true. Seeing as the image is one of the most transient things, it's usually the last thing the artist really finds... A lot of acts go through loads of different images during their grinding period before they find the one that catches on.

>I'm not going to say that they are *exactly* the same thing,
>but then again... why should they be?

Miniature golf isn't exactly the same as real golf either... nor does it have to be. But I know damn well just because you can put doesn't mean you can golf. A lot of these dudes are learning only a small fraction of what the real game is supposed to be about.

>In any case, I don't think that we're talking about different
>things. You're suggesting that cats look for an image before
>they develop a sound and I'm saying it's not true. Seeing as
>the image is one of the most transient things, it's usually
>the last thing the artist really finds... A lot of acts go
>through loads of different images during their grinding period
>before they find the one that catches on.

Yeah we are talking about different things... honestly after reading that I don't know what else to say to you. You are staying focused on artists here and their process and I'm looking at this from the fan side. The only thing I can add to speak to what you're talking about is a lot of artists now are not fully formed because they don't have a system in place to nurture what real talent they may possess... but again thats an off shoot of what this post was about.
_________________________________
Reunion Radio Podcasts
Bringing Together Five Decades of R&B/Funk/Soul/Dance

http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/

Latest episode- Slave Tribute (RIP Mark L. Adams)

>Miniature golf isn't exactly the same as real golf either...
>nor does it have to be. But I know damn well just because you
>can put doesn't mean you can golf. A lot of these dudes are
>learning only a small fraction of what the real game is
>supposed to be about.

See, that attempt to impose the values of another era is a problem.

Would it be great if today's artists came up through the chitlin circuit? Sure! But the chitlin circuit does not exist anymore so talking about "what the game is supposed to be about" amounts to little more than wishful thinking.

The chitlin circuit has been replaced by a different kind of game, and artists today work it to the best of their ability.

>See, that attempt to impose the values of another era is a
>problem.

And I'm trying to think of another way to put this but it really does come back to the word he uses when y'all get into this... that word is standards.

>Would it be great if today's artists came up through the
>chitlin circuit? Sure! But the chitlin circuit does not exist
>anymore so talking about "what the game is supposed to be
>about" amounts to little more than wishful thinking.
>
>The chitlin circuit has been replaced by a different kind of
>game, and artists today work it to the best of their ability.

I understand things have changed but what you're just shrugging off as different is actually inferior because it doesn't ask as much from those going through the process. Not as many kids play outside today as compared to our time either... due to a variety of factors... but if we start talking about the fitness of young people we can't just say it's a different time and then think the end results are going to be the same. You get out what you put in. You take shortcuts and it's flat out going to show up. There's a big difference between pointing out change and examining the results and just bitching about how things aren't the way they used to be. It is what it is today but I'm not going to stand by and watch someone tell me different means equal.

_________________________________
Reunion Radio Podcasts
Bringing Together Five Decades of R&B/Funk/Soul/Dance

http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/

Latest episode- Slave Tribute (RIP Mark L. Adams)

But maybe this latter day image rubs you the wrong way cuz it seems like artists are running towards an image constructed for them, as opposed to constructing their own over time.

To pick a date lets say the old 1997 year, when media consolidation and puff had their hold on music, rap in particular. So while Afkap is right about artists dreaming up their image alongside their music since forever, I think after the 90s the image alot of black performers were adopting were more templates than anything else. I mean in the early to mid 90s, Cam-ron, Murder Mase and (ja rule was it?) were supposed to be in a group together, just hardcore rhymers who spit about hood shit, like any other NY centric group --an image of their own devising. After the 90s their incarnations were totally different, the Thug love tupac clone in Rule, the indifferently cool drug dealer in cam ron, and the super baller in Ma$e. I think you are saying that images now are sold first, before the artist and their voice (in this set up, chris brown, omarion, trey songz, etc., are all the same person in fact, vying for that same post-Usher/R Kelly spot), if that is what you are saying, then agree.

Your whole insistence on returning people to perfecting instruments tho, is a romantic viewpoint, as it is obvious virtuosity is not needed for classics.

>But maybe this latter day image rubs you the wrong way cuz it
>seems like artists are running towards an image constructed
>for them, as opposed to constructing their own over time.

I'm not speaking about anyone's image today being bad or good... the point is im pretty neutral on that stuff for the most part. Even if there's something I don't like about a cat I can still get down with his shit if the music is tight.... as it should be
_________________________________
Reunion Radio Podcasts
Bringing Together Five Decades of R&B/Funk/Soul/Dance

http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/

Latest episode- Slave Tribute (RIP Mark L. Adams)

as far as being successful and shit
the music isn't valued anymore because if you don't get the latest shit, there's something else coming in a few weeks and then you can play catch up
not to mention the fact that itunes has pretty much deaded the need to go and search for music

but it's certainly gotten more ridiculous since the Internet

it kind of reminds me of what people say about Laker fans (or rather, not fans of the Lakers, obsessive fans of Kobe Bryant) how some get all weird when you don't say Kobe is the greatest.

If you don't do that for say, Pac, or Jay-Z ... there's a "could this person be greater than advertised" discussion, and some jabroni will instantly bring that person up.

For example, the KRS post. I found it HILARIOUS (maybe because it was a "GOAT" discussion) that Jay-Z was the only other rapper talked about in that post. None of the notorious "usual suspects" besides Jay got brought up in that post.

Damn that sounded all technical but since we know everything about
everybody due to the internet, people are gonna be into that.

Think of it this way, have you ever heard a song and didn't really FEEL
it or like it until you had the experience to contextualize it?
Well people's lives give their music meaning. It becomes more than
just a song about a toast to assholes. Now it's about a man finding
his way through a troubling time after the death of his mother etc.
I don't even ride for Kanye like that but I see why people get so into
his stuff. It's the same with any artist that you know more about.

Also, when you genuinely like somebody you'll pay more attention to the
stuff they say and think more about it. As opposed to somebody that
you don't like on a personal level. It happens on this site every day.
A long time poster can make the most inane post and get 100 replies.
But a "n00b" can make a great post and nobody pays attention because they
don't know them or have background and context.

You get a view of the artists life that is just unprecedented, it can really make fans feel they are living vicariously through the artist. The up to the minute, stream of conscious posts can be entertaining if you follow the right people. Quest is posting pics of his hotel right now, pics of him kicking it with Sasha Grey, you can't do that on OKP.

If it were the 70's it would be all @omg Al Green is so swag! he got all the bitches!!!11

If they're not putting out what's a true representation of themselves, then it's fake to me.

While I'll respect a red state fascist or a tea party-er putting out something thats true to their heart, I probably won't listen to it.

Revisionism at it's best. Most men stayed away from any artist who was connected with anything feminine during the 70's and 80's and most times because of this the artists music was not even given a chance to be heard. By singling girls/women solely as the one's you expect to like an artist because of non-musical influeces in itself handicaps your argument with sexist non-sense.

Seems u forgot how many men co-signed on Apollonia, Vanity 6, etc. purely based on sex appeal.

>Revisionism at it's best. Most men stayed away from any
>artist who was connected with anything feminine during the
>70's and 80's and most times because of this the artists music
>was not even given a chance to be heard.

Really... Imma let you think this one through before throwing out names

>Seems u forgot how many men co-signed on Apollonia, Vanity 6,
>etc. purely based on sex appeal.

Yeah it was PURELY on sex appeal... those grooves had nothing to do with it *roll eyes* And if you really think we looked at either of those acts as anything other than eye candy dressing up Prince music you really shouldn't be calling anyone a revisionist.
_________________________________
Reunion Radio Podcasts
Bringing Together Five Decades of R&B/Funk/Soul/Dance

http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/

Latest episode- Slave Tribute (RIP Mark L. Adams)

but sometimes that style is so good it becomes the substance! (most of the time though, its not, i admit)

but i dont see whats wrong with being a fan of someone, male or female. i love little richard, the man (n/h etc) and his personality as well as the music. i find it impossible to separate them actually.