I typed out a lot of words but I erased them. This is so heavy.

i mean he gone
the art still here
he influenced who he influenced artistically and thats not something that can be cancelled or taken away

i don't really feel like you need to justify your personal listening but its just another layer to be aware of at a party or something. You just have to put on Bruno Mars instead.

i do think the context of MJ and his art vs R.Kelly and his is very different. Its extremely hard to separate the Kelly stuff from the music.

Sorry

Nobody can tell you what you can't listen to. They can argue why they think you SHOULD still listen to MJ, but the decision is yours and yours alone.

I ain’t turning the station if PYT comes on.

so I don't see what difference it'll make, unless you are a company that somehow profits off his work (and even then...)

You enjoy what you enjoy.

Bill Cosby was a monster. Cliff Huxtable was a decent dude as far as I saw on the show and the show was a great representation of black folks in this country and damn near an inspiration. Some of those episodes may hold a special place in your heart, just like some of the music for others.

I haven't supported R. Kelly in I can't even tell you how long and honestly think he's a piece of shit after all the info came out. If something from 12 Play come on I may nod my head to it because it brings back memories, wouldn't purchase a damn thing of his now though. I might not throw it on at a party either.

I'm pretty sure other things we enjoy have some shit behind them that we have no idea about yet. If you listen or watch things from these people the only one that knows about it is you, and that's all that matters. Don't worry about what others think, you gotta make that decision yourself.

By we, I mean me and wifey.

When we play music for each other...weekends...pulling up stuff on youtube or going through the records. We NEVER play his shit. Like ever.

The most I'll do is put on an old Jackson 5/Jacksons album (Get It Together, Destiny), but we never play his solo stuff. Shoot...out of all the albums I have, I don't own one MJ solo...nope, not even Thriller. I don't actively turn the radio if his music comes on, but I don't purposely play it either. It's weird, cause playing the group stuff, I'm still playing MJ, but...iono...it feels less...guilty I guess.



*************************************

Fuck aliens

-Warriorpoet415

#2dopebrothersandastackofwax

https://www.instagram.com/thirtythree.three/

The Greatest Story (N)ever Told (finished)

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=s

You play Jackson 5 but not his solo shit?

Because of Tito and Randy?

just means you were never a fan. I had none of his albums for a long as time, but eventually got a couple. he's got music I like and some I tolerate. rarely listen to him, but not because of it his cases.

with Rkelly, I never liked his style of music. I actually dislike most of the stuff I heard, but admittedly, haven't heard a full album since 12 play lol. radio or parties is where I'd hear his stuff. he's got some songs, but just not my thing.

The whole thing is a mess, and I still get sentimental over some MJ music, but its' weird. The latest accusations were gross enough that even if they were somewhat problematic, they still take the fun out of it for me.

I'm not gonna run up and tell some grade school hip hop dance teacher to turn it off or anything, though. Just felt sad that something I'm sure I did as a first grader and was pretty sentimental about, has a completely reframed context.

I was never an R Kelly fan so that one is pretty much irrelevant

But MJ? Nah he ain't going anywhere for me. I'm not even starting that game. Especially with music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G_akYNIHpA

R Kelly has a marriage license and at least one video as proof. MJ? Total fabricated hearsay when you really look into the whole story.

MJ? Total fabricated hearsay when you really look into
>the whole story.

the dude was investigated by the FBI twice.

these same accusers denied any wrongdoing as adults

people real dumb

im cancelling oprah doe

but your line is your line

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

that's the only way he would've gotten a pass from good ol rjcc

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

White people can do anything they gonna have the advantage. That man allegedly performed anal sex on him as a child, he’s been saying MJ did nothing to him for decades. This white boy is doing MJ tributes and making a career using Michael’s name. Now in 2019 he sexually abused him... I don’t trust white people. I don’t like MJ the person. he’s been suspect since being all over Webster during the Grammys. But this is bullshit.

As long as there is an urban radio format MJ's music will somehow get played, whether it be the Jackson Five, The Jacksons, his pre-OTW stuff, a song off any of those will continue to get play; just this morning the Steve Harvey morning show was playing "Heartbreak Hotel", yesterday my local urban station usually plays "Lady In My Life" during their weekday slow jam sessions.

using the same line of thought that takes cops at face value when they say they "feared for their life" when they shoot unarmed people down to justify their unwillingness to confront their preconceived notions, gut feelings and peer pressure.

You think this 34 year old man was interested in sleeping with 7,8,9 year old boys with no sexual interest.

Out of curiosity,list all the other men you give this benefit of doubt to. One nigga on your list, huh?

>You think this 34 year old man was interested in sleeping
>with 7,8,9 year old boys with no sexual interest.
>
>Out of curiosity,list all the other men you give this benefit
>of doubt to. One nigga on your list, huh?

do you have facts to support your conjecture or are you gonna wind it back to "He SlEePs WiTh BoYs" nonsense? MJ made the dumbest comment someone ever could have made when accused of such a thing and people been rolling with that as "proof" ever since.

my opinion on MJ is evidence-based, and that's it. anything else is bullshit.

the majority of the people who have commented on this topic who were there describe a vastly different experience, one where MJ wasn't even in the bed with them in the first place. why are their testimonies ignored in favor of two who, evidenced through documents produced in discovery of their on-the-record civil trials, have changed their narratives so many times that the timeline looks like someone throwing darts at a chessboard?

again, I need people to just own up to "I think he's a creep how he deals with kids, and think he's a pedo despite not having any proof".

it's the "not having proof" situation that's my beef. not how I feel about his personal behavior. which is a completely different discussion as to what we're having here.

Here is someone whose feeling about this whole thing come close to my own, who quit his job at the Daily Beast because he saw, as I saw, an egregiously unfair and dishonest discourse propping up, noted his own contribution to it, and actually modified his stance:

https://medium.com/@stereowilliams/correct-me-if-im-wrong-6336108a25db

I'll extract the part most relevant:

"Many have consistently stated over the past few days that victimhood doesn’t always look the way you’d expect it to; well, standing up for victims won’t always look the way you expect it to, either. If you are of the mind that 'regardless of whether these guys are right — I know he did something,' then I need for you, as Reed himself has intimated, to de-center Michael Jackson. Your need for cultural closure on a 25-year scandal may be blinding you to the fact that this particular saga isn’t going to end with a pedophile in handcuffs. Michael Jackson is dead and his legacy has already been tarnished."

then why did a old-ass, mostly white ass jury that didn't give a damn fuck about his celebrity acquit him of the shit when jail was on the table?

when that was part of the whole discussion?

are we dealing with facts, here? Or Niggardry?

I deal with facts... Nigga shit ain't keeping me outta jail, bro

stop deflecting.

Just say: "I think he's a creep, I think he's a pedo, and I have no proof."

the apology they deserve. You know, the catholic church and MANY other respected institutions have been guilty of abuse for years and years. The victims are all speaking up now, as adults, demanding recognition and demanding an apology. It's been a tough road for them but they are fighting for at least to be believed.

These 5 men who have accused Michael Jackson are just being attacked, maliciously threatened and ignored. Even those who claim to believe them don't want to stop the music.

So, in the end, I just feel really bad for them. The Catholic church have never properly apologized to the victims but the world is on their side.

These guys just have to swallow it and get on with living with all that rape and molestation they endured for years.

there were 2 boys, 2 men who claimed they were molested (and had civil suits dismissed), and the 5th accuser was supposedly a *Jane* Doe who dismissed the case. and that one actually had pictures of checks given with redacted information among other things.

the 1993 civil case was halted a settlement paid by the insurance company for the charge of negligence because a judge would not delay its proceeding before a criminal trial could ensue. paying the settlement did not halt the criminal case. 2 grand juries did not indict due to not having enough evidence. it was reported shortly before the halting of criminal trial and the accuser's eventual refusal to testify in a criminal trial (after receiving settlement) that the "slam dunk" evidence -- the pictures obtained in a strip search of Jackson, did not actually match Jackson (USA Today via Reuters, Jan 28 1994). in addition, an audio recording, taken by the accuser's stepfather and given to Jackson's private investigator reveals an extortion plot. this tape was aired on news programs, but is seldom mentioned (except in a cover story in GQ, and also in a recent article about Leaving Neverland by Slate).

it is said that the accuser was sought as a witness in the 2005 case, but refused. the accuser emancipated himself from his parents and left the country, hasn't been seen since.

the 2005 case ended up being a circus of prosecution witnesses perjuring themselves on the stand and/or getting destroyed in cross examination, alleged falsified evidence (Sneddon handing a porno mag to the accuser to handle in front of a grand jury without gloves). the accuser did testify (his court deposition can be seen) and gave conflicting account to witnesses intended to corroborate the story. the family was also found to have been part of similar grifting schemes that netted them large money in civil suits, corroborated by defense witness testimony. mother of the accused had to plead the 5th. jury unanimously acquitted Jackson on 14 counts, including all misdemeanors.

Robson/Safechuck:

Robson files civil suit under seal in 2012-13, and based on court documents, appeared to have looked for other people known to have been around Jackson as children. Safechuck joins the suit as a result. Safechuck's suit is dismissed due to statute of limitation. Robson attempts to subvert statute by using one of the exceptions involving sexual assault. as a result, is required to go back into court for deposition and submit emails as evidence. in these emails it is discovered he has been emailing himself information from anti-MJ sites to build a narrative of abuse, even emailing his mother to ask her if any of those things actually happened. his actual claim even contradicts the timeline of the film. in the summary judgement, the judge notes of Robson's case that no rational juror would be able to believe his constructed narrative based on what he said in his deposition.

the civil suits are under appeal. they were not mentioned at all in Leaving Neverland, not even to make the argument of "we tried to get justice the best way we could, and the system failed us."


I type all of this knowing that this will be skipped.

I wish people would just come out and say "though I can't prove it at all, I think he's a creep for how he deals with kids and think he's a pedophile".

99% of this handwringing ass bullshit would have been avoided

this shit is easily found

it's been in plain sight and people still willfully doubling down

.
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“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

You know exactly what that means. Playing dumb as a means to disagree is so junior high.

>You know exactly what that means. Playing dumb as a means to
>disagree is so junior high.


No, the dumb part is acting like a person's legacy can be tossed or erased, while trying to pretend that they never existed, never impacted culter, changed a gene, or influenced multiple generations.

Jokers can't even not count Geroge Washington, Hitler or anyone else in this sick world.







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“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

What are you talking about, nobody said "act like someone never existed."

Weren't you just pretending to denounce Harvey Weinstein like last week?

You can denounce folks behavior or comments, but ain't no such things as canceling them. That nonsense sounds good and cool, but it's not a real thing.



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“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

complaining about "cancel culture" and people getting "cancelled?"

The whole Idea of "cancel culture" and people getting "canceled" is stupid. That fact that you're even trying to call it culture is hilarious. Dude, this is so temporary media fed outrage that will be dead and done by June.


.
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“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

Since you must be out to lunch



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“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

and used just like Nino Brown used it in NJC: you no longer exist in my world, walk on by. But man does it feel good to cancel.

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“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

A preacher ain't you?

impacting the world on some level. Please name one.


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“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

Nobody in their right mind personally vows to not support a celebrity in effort to erase their legacy or impact. Just stop, man.

I've made a clear effort in this post to make a clear distinction between disavowing (possible and can be warranted) and canceling (impossible and silly).

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“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

.
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“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

Apart from sounding all good and christy in your head, that is.

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“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

I'm sure you can make a meme out of it on fb that will get a lot of likes.

Not so much outside the echo chamber though.

What you've done is present an argument from definition. As with every argument you ever make on every subject, that's a logical fallacy.

Words have usages, not inherent meanings.

I'll pause so you can make your usual basic-bob ass mistake and go to a dictionary for the definition of "definition".

You done? Cool. Now that that's out of the way, there's an obviously colloquial use of the word "cancelled" in here. There's a very specific contextual use of the word "canceled".

All you've done is make a very sincere attempt to split hairs with two terms that, essentially amount to "I ain't fucking with him anymore".

You've added zero substance to the discussion. Zero nuanced perspective. All you've done is present an asinine argumentum ad dictionarium.

It's one thing to do that shit when discussing your cult. That's marginally understandable, because few things create and sustain cognitive dissonance like religious indoctrination. Hell, your signature presents a shining example of that ignorance in that Francis Collins quote, because it's an argument from personal incredulity.

It's more evident in your hilariously out of context Einstein quote, because the entire statement from which it was pulled sends a much different message.

But again..... that's what indoctrination does to people. You don't have that excuse outside the bubble of your fairytale.

You damn sure don't have it here.

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“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

.
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“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

Is that what this is all about?

Does he have a tape on him like R.Kelly?

Was there a new trial, new evidence admitted into court, a new investigation... anything more than that documentary?

Didn't see the documentary, just folks overnight talking about "Michael is wrong and fuck anyone that thinks otherwise!"

>Is that what this is all about?
>
>Does he have a tape on him like R.Kelly?
>
>Was there a new trial, new evidence admitted into court, a new
>investigation... anything more than that documentary?

absolutely none of that shit happened.

there is no tape, no corroborating evidence, and there won't be an investigation.

you got drone shots, testimonies, some props, drone shots, creepy music, drone shots, timelines at odds with real, verifiable events, drone shots, an Oprah co-sign, and oh yeah... drone shots. extra content edits if you saw it in the UK. compared to the 2 R. Kelly docs, nothing that approaches being a likely outcome.

this whole thing is violently pulling out a wound stitch, resulting in people being loud and wrong about prior events, and the loud and wrong people being the only ones allowed to express their opinion without being raked over the coals, especially in print.

Steve Harvey was like “I had no idea” when it came to Kellz but he ain’t touching the MJ doc cause he was friends with MJ

All these old people who saw the trials see this new doc and are all a sudden acting like they finally get it.

FOH.

Basically admitting that anwell produced documentary can open their eyes more than the actual accusations and trials that happened years earlier.

knows better

the extortion was caught on tape lol

decade long investigations found nothing

but 2 proven liars are suddenly legit

shit then was murky and even if it was a long con by the parents, he made himself pretty goddamn vulnerable, no?

but to be like OH SHIT FOR REAL!?! THEN FUCK HIM! right now seems kinda sheepish. There have long been very justifiable suspicions, and all this doc does is potentially add to them. Nothing concrete here and if suspicion was enough for you then you should have already written him off 20-25 years ago.

I am not into erasing history; especially erasing Black history. Plus MJ has passed long ago so he, himself, will not financially benefit to keep doing and hiding the horrible things he has been accused of. MJ's name should remain in the history books and be praised for the good he has done. He is a Black icon with huge flaws that society will never let us forget. We can still enjoy his art while remembering everything else negative. Should serve as a reminder that talented geniuses, in all fields and all walks of life, may not be good people and may even have a dark side. We should be doing that with all historical figures anyway and stop the narrative of them being god like beings. But that's another topic for another day.

The whole purpose of the cancel culture should be to cripple those alive, deprive them of whatever resources (i.e. financial, etc.) so they can't continue to do harm. Especially if they don't receive jail time or it's just a slap on the wrist.

I am muting R. Kelly because my support, especially financial, empowers him to keep doing what he is alleged of doing. As a matter of fact, the trouble he is facing now is because he is running low on funds to keep paying people to hide his dirty dark secrets. Once the funds get low, people start talking. Once everything is confirmed, and true justice is served....and I know supporting his art will no longer aid in his debauchery....then and only then will I consider throwing on a R. Kelly track. Because as a music head, I am into chord arrangement and studying what makes a song great. Musically, what was the thinking to put 'such and such' together to create this great art?

Horrible people can create great things and contribute to society at large; and even be remembered for the good contributed. Its complex but people are and have been comprehending this for a long time now (yppo, etc). When will Black society catch up and allowed to be capable of something as complex?

Streaming became a thing?

I've heard multiple people say they don't want to listen to Kelly's music to avoid putting money in his pocket which seems to mean they're listening on some type of streaming service

I don't actually own any of his CDs (other than that copy of 12 Play my Mom left at the house) but I definitely will listen to the MP3s I illegally downloaded back in the limewire days and watch as he hopefully goes to jail

Of course I will never cancel or stop listening to Mike but that song "You Are Not Alone" is a great song but realizing that's it's written by K.Rells who I'm fine with not hearing his songs ever again got me torn.

I support MJ but I don't support RK, but he has been writing songs for other artists as long as he has been in the business, writing songs for people like Aaliyah, Ronald Isley, Madonna, Johnny Gill, Toni Braxton, Hi-Five, Changing Faces, Maxwell ("Fortunate" was my shit), Luther Vandross, Jay-Z, Biggie, Nas, Gerald Levert, Kelly Price, K-ci & Jojo, Brian McKnight, the list goes on & on...do we stop listening to those songs he did with those artists or do we ignore it as long as his vocals are not in the song?

Now I see why some people refuse to stop watching a movie cause Harvey Weinstein had something to do with it, even though they might like what he did; so many conflicts of interest involved.

Always felt it was the better song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVLt7D1GtJ8

Never happenin’

He is ours. He belong to us. Fuck them.

No point in cherry picking one artist.

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“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

and start doing some homework you realize you have to cancel a shit ton of shows, movies, music, etc.

I mean.. is it really THAT crazy for people to act crazy when given a ton of
Money, fame, drugs and a pedestal to stand on while doing it?

Part of fame is being able to do shit you shouldn’t do.

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“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

lot's of problematic shit, either abuse, partners who were hella young, or both.

70's rock? Led Zepplin, Steven Tyler, Ted Nugent, Rolling Stones, John Lennon all have some well know, pretty egregious stories out

50's? Chuck Berry, Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis... lot's of nastiness and predatory shit

R&B Legends? Where to start? I'll just put ALL OF MOTOWN on the list and we can build it from there.

The list of music producers on their Harvey Weinstein, is probably shockingly long as well.

Probably be a shorter list to come up with artists who don't have some fairly well known grime out there (not that they're clean, just that their business isn't an open secret like so many).

https://youtu.be/9_1tGqn4jXc

LaToya has gone on record for years as soon as she left her then husband, that she was forced to accuse Michael

It can go both ways

If this was all true, fan or not, liking someone's work doesn't override these kinds of crimes

there was a piece in forbes that pretty much shredded the two accusers but in a factual way.

my mom knew mj personally back in the day and had a lot of interesting things to say about him. she, of course, had an opinion on the whole thing, basically saying that there was at least a fair chance he was crossing the line at these sleepovers, but that there was no "intent" as it were. basically he was a psychological peter pan. even in his 20s he was scared to be touched and would hide under tables and shit, like a fort, if he got agitated. she basically hung around the sets of some shit he did, most notably the wiz, and her kinda unofficial job was to keep an eye on him. rather than keeping tabs on an adult, it was more like watching after a young child. women were throwing themselves at him and he was just confused by it; he didn't want any part of it.

i'm not trying to absolve him here because regardless of his intentions he may very well have caused real trauma. just trying to add some insight, and also say that while he might have done that shit, these new allegations don't do much for me. follow the money and the previous statements on this, pretty suspect. but at the same time, there are other accusers and some really unusual stuff definitely did go on at a personal amusement park that hosted kids for sleepvers.

Anymore anecdotes?

it was the 70s so if you hear about how fucking kinky and.or gross people were, pull up a chair.

MJ invited him to his estate in Europe in the middle of nowhere and you couldn’t get cell phone service.

He told us one day MJ was hiding in the studio and you would hear giggling and “hee hee’s”

Said that shit lasted for hours.

But then MJ would turn around and have a serious convo about the media painting him as the devil and how there was no way he would ever go broke because he outsmarted them all with his purchase of that catalog.

and this was pretty much 3 to 4 years before he passed away.

Kelis also said he used to go to the grocery store and buy a shitload of eggs and they would have a limo driver do drive by’s while MJ tosses eggs at people. This was his idea of fun as a full grown adult.

I definitely think he was on some weird shit.

If people are going to sue anyone it should be Joe Jackson

back when it was more a full-on freakout. i think he was also really starved for parental figures, which seems logical given his upbringing. my mom was only four years older than him and yet he treated her like some kind of maternal figure. also bears mentioning that she was more or less a stranger. her boyfriend was one of the producers of the film and she had a regular professional job at the chicago stock exchange, but she'd come after work to hang out. not exactly a close personal friend yet he latched onto her. and maybe i said this before but she saw some wild ass shit on sets. like dudes like billy d and timothy hutton having a literal line of jawns to give up the bobblehead. mj had a lot of advances but he basically ran and hid from any woman who wanted to even get to know him.

which is the most confounding thing about it ALL to me. I'm not even asking people to convict the dude, but to think critically about it at the very least.

the closest takes I've seen to yours are John Ziegler, whose notoriety over skepticism over the coverage of the Penn State/JoePa/Sandusky matter has got him the "stamp of tinfoil" may discredit him in the eyes of some, and Stereo Williams, who appears to have quit his job at the Daily Beast (who is towing a very Hillary Clinton-or-else type line on this topic), possibly because of the fall-out related to coverage of this matter.

in Ziegler's case (who has said he wasn't a fan, or even someone who paid much attention), he came into the whole thing, and even after watching it, convinced of MJ's guilt. then he learned/investigated more, and he's become far more skeptical, and even flipped the other way. he was one of those who thought the whole Jussie Smollett situation was BS, and has compared this situation to that, only he says there's more to corroborate Smollett's claims than Wade's at this point.

Williams's take published on Medium seemed very much a mea culpa, even with reminders of the necessary discussions and his "no dog in the fight" stance.

this seems to be very much limited to the US media. in the UK, there is a much wider range of reaction, and in Italy (where it flopped the hardest), one piece in Panorama goes all the way in, dissecting some of the most graphic claims as they were presented.

(granted the Italians DO have a bit of a problem with the topic if recent stories are any indication...)

Again, regardless of where people stand, I expect there to be more of a spectrum of opinions, not this unilateral bullshit. especially in the "liberal" space.

i guess that fits with their "vast unnavigable maze" approach to online content but it didn't get much burn. actually it was the main man antonio harvey (of lakers "fame") who showed it to me.

>which is the most confounding thing about it ALL to me. I'm
>not even asking people to convict the dude, but to think
>critically about it at the very least.

right and i mean on one hand i am all for righting wrongs, bringing people to justice, etc, but there is an uneasy aspect of all this. it isn't the "vengeful" part, because a lotta times vengeance is in order. it isn't the tear down the patriarchy/supremacy shit, because that's been needed to be torn down. it's more an overarching self-assuring, self-celebratory I WANNA BE ON THE RIGHT SIDE AND I DON'T WANNA SPEND ANY TIME DETERMINING WHICH SIDE IS RIGHT attitude that permeates everything in the U.S. today. the same reason people on the right couldn't define socialism with a dictionary, the same reason people on the left just automatically decry anything vaguely linked to Trump (anything directly linked is worth decrying) and the same reason two thirds of Americans couldn't pass a fucking test to become citizens of their own fucking country.

>the closest takes I've seen to yours are John Ziegler, whose
>notoriety over skepticism over the coverage of the Penn
>State/JoePa/Sandusky matter has got him the "stamp of tinfoil"
>may discredit him in the eyes of some, and Stereo Williams,
>who appears to have quit his job at the Daily Beast (who is
>towing a very Hillary Clinton-or-else type line on this
>topic), possibly because of the fall-out related to coverage
>of this matter.
>
>in Ziegler's case (who has said he wasn't a fan, or even
>someone who paid much attention), he came into the whole
>thing, and even after watching it, convinced of MJ's guilt.
>then he learned/investigated more, and he's become far more
>skeptical, and even flipped the other way. he was one of those
>who thought the whole Jussie Smollett situation was BS, and
>has compared this situation to that, only he says there's more
>to corroborate Smollett's claims than Wade's at this point.
>
>Williams's take published on Medium seemed very much a mea
>culpa, even with reminders of the necessary discussions and
>his "no dog in the fight" stance.
>
>this seems to be very much limited to the US media. in the UK,
>there is a much wider range of reaction, and in Italy (where
>it flopped the hardest), one piece in Panorama goes all the
>way in, dissecting some of the most graphic claims as they
>were presented.
>
>(granted the Italians DO have a bit of a problem with the
>topic if recent stories are any indication...)
>
>Again, regardless of where people stand, I expect there to be
>more of a spectrum of opinions, not this unilateral bullshit.
>especially in the "liberal" space.

exactly, and of course the more we get wrong in the media, the harder the "fake news"shit slaps. the more iffy accusations are out there, the less the real ones stick. we gotta hold ourselves to higher standards and let screaming idiots be the screaming idiots, not stoop to their level of manufacturing consensus and stifling facts into narratives.

and like everyone else can NOT BE HONEST about your poorly supported position.

Because you, like so many, are cowardly when you're faced with a challenge. Hence the "bitch-ass nigga" tag. you brought the LaToya comments as if they were (pardon the expression) the Trump card, but casually ignore her later recanting and reasons for doing so (which are verified) as "convenient"

Let me explain this:

At best, this film is a grand experiment of how confirmation bias affects people's thoughts, and how they can be weaponized for greater gain.

Take MJ out of this whole thing, completely. Forget his innocence or guilt.

If you were to tell me, that you were going to make a film in which two people accuse someone who is dead (and thus can not challenge the accusations from a criminal standpoint, or at least in the USA, as a point of defamation) of a serious crime. But all that is in the film is testimony. No evidence, no corroboration of these stories from third (and uninterested/uninvested parties), only letting one's emotions guide your reaction, enforced with elements meant to manipulate: creepy music and images, graphic details, the whole concept of "well, no one would lie about this" is taken to heart.

...then you're going to follow this up, with a celebrity-hosted aftershow, with a carefully-curated audience, deliberately made to be sympathetic. promote it as sensationally as you can, with a grand media blitz. all the writing in the "reputable" press is as monolithic as it can get, where the narrative is not at all challenged seriously.

So now, the allegations have been inscribed as fact by the media, without being proven as so, without even being ABLE to be proven as so. You (the viewer) are just being asked... no, TOLD to believe.

You see, now, we're talking about an environment in which the presumption of innocence, the supposed bedrock of a criminal justice system is formally abolished. In which "likes" and "dislikes" and social media actions, not fact finding or evidence is the arbiter of guilt or innocence. Anyone who dares to challenge this is labeled an accessory to the alleged crime, or worse a "truther".

MJ or no MJ, that's horseshit.

I remember Susan Smith. I was a student in school in South Carolina when that went down. That was right up I-26.

Jussie Smollett is going on right now.

In both of these situations, there will actually be an investigation. We found out the truth about Smith. We will likely find out what happened with Jussie.

It's not a crime, and it should not be an EDICT that anyone who doesn't want to "cancel" anyone be shoved into a box just for being skeptical. That's horseshit.

So let's bring back MJ into this now.
The only reason this film was made and sold, is because of MJ.
The only reason people are even talking about it, is MJ.
For all the talk of "it's bigger than MJ" and "boys got raped" and whatever the fuck... people are centering MJ.

99% of the discussion has about previous allegations. Some of which have been proven to be completely false, or to use your terminology, dismissed with matters "convenient for a fandom".

I've liked MJ songs. I thought he was cool. That has no bearing on what I think about this film and this discussion. It's the "meta-game" that's my beef. People are turning this into a tribalist witch hunt when in this case, there's way more gray matter than people are being told there is.

TL/DR: Without evidence, accusations never progress beyond allegations. A conviction on allegations alone is bitch shit. What's worse than bitch shit is a world where we not only convict on accusations alone, but on who you like or dislike more. The media is nudging us to that reality with this episode.

You're heart and soul is in this. I understand. I wouldn't be a bitch ass nigga in a face to face conversation, I know that too

So we can put that idea to test, you non-reading ass, bitch-ass nigga.

He had all the intimate access to and admittedly slept with. The least you could do is understand how logically it would make sense for another person to believe that maybe he fucked with them whether you believe or not. You're a fucking moron. Cleveland though. Shrugs.

in America?

Just doesn't add up to me

This is a lil different.

And that's part of my point too. The idea that "they" are out to get Mike so they accuse him. If "they" really wanted him, a guilty verdict would have been hung on his ass. The accusation of him fucking with boys didn't come from thin air.. worst case scenario, its next logical step to sleeping in the same bed with strange boys that you develop long term relationships with.

https://mobile.twitter.com/santikapowski/status/1100828185963479042

They got this guy's family liking all MJ pages on social media up until last month

Robson starts a private ( untraceable) foundation/gofundme

https://www.showbiz411.com/2019/03/03/exclusive-michael-jackson-accuser-wade-robson-is-ready-for-donations-with-a-new-non-profit-designed-to-cash-in-on-leaving-neverland

Then keep that same energy. Otherwise you just cherry picking on issues that apply to you and you are just pretending you care about the victims or whatever the motivation is to "cancel" people.

I personally don't subscribe to that. I can enjoy someones art despite them being a POS. I get that some others just can't do it for whatever reason and you have the right to do so but I def don't listen to anyone telling me what I should do or how I should approach situations like that.


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IG @h_n_z

>Then keep that same energy. Otherwise you just cherry picking
>on issues that apply to you and you are just pretending you
>care about the victims or whatever the motivation is to
>"cancel" people.

"Cherry picking issues that apply to them" is just another way of saying "reacting to the things that evoke empathy".

It's what nearly everyone does for any particular cause, for most things. It's largely what determines how people vote, to what charities they donate, and most decisions that are ultimately driven by how hard that button on their moral compass is being pressed.

It sounds all good and hardline angsty activist to project the notion that people are merely "pretending" to care about victims if they aren't equally driven to cancel everything across the board, but it's just another grandstanding statement with no real substance.

Morality is much more complex than that.

>I get that some others just can't
>do it for whatever reason and you have the right to do so but
>I def don't listen to anyone telling me what I should do or
>how I should approach situations like that.

Which makes it odd that you're telling people what to do, and how they should approach this.

son

I mean... I get how hard it is for people to accept. I really, really do. I don't know a childhood... hell, a LIFE, without MJ. And at the same time there is NO grey area, in my mind, about predators. So this shit suuuuuuuuuuuucks. It is absolutely heartbreaking.

But he was a predator. Clearly, deeply troubled, but a child abuser nonetheless and the efforts to take all of these scalpels to the allegations is the equivalent of us putting our fingers in our ears and turning up the volume on 'Off the Wall.' I'd almost feel better if folks said, "I know he was an abuser, but 'I Can't help It' is still my joint..."

I mean... I get it, but at some point we have to get right with ourselves and accept it.

I'm struggling with it but am on my way.

At this point, fuck the music and being a fan aspect....

There are too many inconsistencies and credibility issues that you can't be ignored

You can call out dude's behavior (which I can understand is suspect and weird) and can make up your own opinion but we gotta look at all the facts

The fact you CAN easily take scalpels to the allegations and can take them apart is an issue in itself imo

We ain't gonna agree, I don't think.

You can take a scalpel to ANYONE'S story and find holes if you wanted to. This is the case with the abuse victims -- it is the default setting -- and is increased by a trillion when MJ is the accused. Our inclination is to find fault with the accusers, their families, their timing, their lives...

It's one thing to be abused, I'd imagine, by someone you love and trust. It's quite another to be abused by someone you (and the entire world) reveres. Almost every expert I've heard speak about this noted that these men's behavior then -- and now -- is wholly indicative of abuse.

But that isn't enough for most folks.

I didn't need the documentary to believe that MJ was an abuser. But watching it and their stories, and that of their families cemented it for me. It details the manipulation -- the classic abuser behavior -- over the years that caused those men to continue to protect MJ. They were hungry for the love that he starved them of when they'd gotten too old/or he'd moved on.

That someone could watch and not see and feel the anguish of those men and their families, makes me sad.

I'm not even a fan like that. To me none of this falls in line with the long established cultural behavior of American and or Western society and I certainly believe he acted in ways with children that were bizarre and (hopefully unintended) damaging and that's as far as I can go with whatever facts exists.

I do believe Emmanuel Lewis's family for sure, but he hasn't said anything and neither has Corey Feldman and one would think that they would have something to say.

Let's keep focused.

On Twitter:
I don’t usually pay attention to allegations anymore. You know how long this stuff has been going on? Decades!! Fabrication of lies with one real intent $$$. RIH MJJ

Let’s be 100% clear here I was never a victim. My big Bro Michael has been nothing but kind and a role model to me and my family. I suggest you pick a subject you really know because obviously you don’t know Michael and you don’t know me. Spread peace not false rumours.


He's spoken out
Sean Lennon has spoken out
Sky Ferreira
Mark Ronson
Bryton James
Kellie Parker
Mac Culkin
Brett Barnes (who was implicated in Leaving Neverland even though he's been steadfast that he wasn't molested and is considering suing)

I followed both men's cases. I have a different perspective

If Safechuck says he was abused everyday at the train station even though it wasn't even built until AFTER the period of alleged abuse happened?

If timelines don't match up, if they both perjued themselves and were found to withholding evidence in the cases, isn't that a reason to question them?

Or Robson was found to be reading up on tabloid stories and sending links to himself from websites specially tailored to paint Jackson as pedophile, perjued himself in his own lawsuit to the point that the judge told him "No rational juror would take his claim seriously".....yeah I'm gonna pause before saying Jackson was guilty.

my child hood but that doesn't change the fact that I completely believe Wade and James and the fucking Maid.

But they're ALL in it for money.... every single one of them who have accused him over many years?


The Jackson family have pocketed 2 billion since MJs death. As if they're throwing him under the bus now.

When Jordan Chandler's father not only went to civil lawyers and pushed so the civil case was before the criminal case?

When the Arivzos went the same route but due to the law changed after the 1994 settlement, went with the trial?

When Robson and Safechuck AND the Jane Doe accuser all filed lawsuits (which if you read up on the cases, were outrageous even from face value imo)

Yeah some people are going to think it's about money

When the maid you're referring to says she was afraid to go to the police but sure went to A Current Affair, Hard Copy, and The National Enquirer? When she was caught stealing? When she was just as recently as this past summer selling items from Neverland on eBay?

Also, nobody in his family but his mother and kids profit from the estate, which is still in probate. So his nephews and nieces who have been defending him aren't making money from him.

the doc and the Oprah interview. There were too many specific details, too much consistency and just the way they presented their stories. I believe them 100%. You just know when someone is telling the truth. Simple as that.

But the world wants him to remain the King of pop so that's what he'll be.

Unfortunately for victims of sexual abuse, the struggle continues to be listened to and believed.

This is incredible. Your feelings can accurately deduce objective truth! Amazing.

That showed flaws in their timeline would make you change your mind.

That’s where we are in America. TV, News, FB.. so easy to play on our emotions.

and was stumbling the fuck over her words, and got her ass eaten up in court for perjuring herself? THAT maid?

man, y'all niggas is why we went into Iraq. I'm convinced now.

>and was stumbling the fuck over her words, and got her ass
>eaten up in court for perjuring herself? THAT maid?
>
>man, y'all niggas is why we went into Iraq. I'm convinced
>now.

...there's some serious brand new shit going on in here.

These are all people who lied under oath. But folks are sweeping that shit under the rug and taking their side of the story. lol It's fucking disgraceful.

If Bush were publicly invited to be shown weapons of mass destruction inside a room labeled 'place where weapons are normally hidden" and he spent 7 years with little limited access to room?

Sure. I wouldn't rule it out.

probably always have been, but niggas can and will make up shit, run with it, and set it up so you can't challenge it without being painted a certain way.

basically, the liars gotta come out and say "we lied" for shit to be reversed.

but in the Iraq War scenario, war already happened. people already died off some bullshit you KNEW was bullshit. "BUT COLIN POWELL HAD THE VIAL"

fake woke-ass niggas.
Folgers-ass niggas.

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IG @h_n_z

I'm not familiar (seriously)

>man, y'all niggas is why we went into Iraq. I'm convinced
>now.


Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg
http://Tupreme.com

for real tho that iraq shit was wild. i went to a liberal ass university in a liberal ass state and me and my gf were like the only people in our inner circle categorically opposed to the war. if you knew any history behind the build-up to the first gulf war and understood any context of middle eastern affairs at that time--mind you this was taught in various departments at our school--you had to see through that carbon paper-thin bullshit.