Seeing how they both ended up dead I guess the conventional wisdom is there were no winners in that battle.

But, right before Tupac died, what was the going consensus on who won that battle?

Or looking back and ignoring what happened outside of the booth and just going off diss tracks, who would be declared the winner looking back on it?

Poll question: Who won the Tupac versus Biggie (Lyrical) Beef?

Poll result (29 votes) Biggie (15 votes) Vote Tupac (14 votes) Vote

Biggie never really even went @ Tupac lyrically, just dropped a handful of lines "aimed" at him over a few spread out tracks. So he's DQ'd automatically.

And Hit 'Em Up is the most overrated diss track of all time. Tupac's verse was what like 8 bars ? Then he let the corny Outlawz take the reigns ? Meh.

Nobody won because it wasn't really a lyrical beef at all.

We're not talking about no other rappers
We're talking about you!

"Who Shot Ya" was a Pac diss, and even went out of his way to deny it.

And "Long Kiss Goodnight" was made after Pac was killed so I hesitate to even mention it because I find it so vile and cowardly.

It was just general gun talk and shit talk - same as a ton of other Biggie songs. He didn’t say anything specific to Pac that I caught.

Maybe the title of it was a jab? But I never thought the song was a true diss song.

I think ultimately the catalyst for the "it's about Pac" speculation was the timing of the song's release.


>RE: Who Shot Ya....none of those bars seemed to be about Pac IMO
>It was just general gun talk and shit talk - same as a ton of
>other Biggie songs. He didn’t say anything specific to Pac
>that I caught.
>
>Maybe the title of it was a jab? But I never thought the song
>was a true diss song.

Pac was carrying twin glock 9s when he was shot...5 times.

So you know what to tell Jake, lame n***
Brave n***, turned front page n****

http://rapzines.com/images/New_York_Post_Tupac_In_Jail.jpg

i played this for some young heads (who thought pac was like really gangster)..the first thing they ask me was..is this chino guy still alive?

Well after everything was over, and even then I was like "Damn, is Chino going to be ok?" That "fuck you and your dope fiiiiiiieeeeeend mama" was so vicious I cringed a little.

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

“In this industry, I’m trying not to get fucked like Tupac in jail”

Pretty sure that was what Pac was responding to.

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

that shit aint brand new..im pretty sure he heard it...

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

He was the aggressor. BIG just focused on his music. I ain’t mad at him for that.

You even see it in that Biggie Movie where they were much like "what's wrong with Tupac and why is he doing this?"

But they were throwing subtle darts at Tupac including in that Vibe Interview with Puffy.

Then there was the murder of Death Row staffer Jake Robles.

Snoops story about Biggie getting people to roll up on them when they shot that video in Brooklyn.

http://ambrosiaforheads.com/2018/06/snoop-dogg-pound-biggie-new-york-video/

I also think Tupac might have been right that Bad Boy had to know something about his first shooting.

Anyway, I am just saying, they are not as innocent as the narrative has become for Bad boy in this beef.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

... the most impressive accomplishment of Puff's life/career.

I never heard anything about Big personally ordering that the goons go shoot them, I seem to remember Big gettin on the radio and saying "How are we gonna let them come to NY and shoot a video like this?" blah blah, as if he couldn't have gone down there and done something about it, if he felt a way. Sucker sh*t.

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

Just less aggressive than Pac. I’m more of a Pac fan anyway so I don’t know the behind the scenes stuff that was going on with Bad Boy in NYC during that time.

It was recorded when Pac was alive
I wonder if he ever heard it?
His days were numbered in low digits so who knows

BIG just laughed that shit off.

Anytime a mofo starts talking shit about your wife/family/kids/etc., you know they ain't got nothing else.


Same with Jay vs. Nas... as soon as Jay-Z started acting like a broad getting personal about dude's family I knew he didn't have anything.

Either Pac was lying on his dick and Big knew that
or Faith was right in denying till her dying breath so Big wouldn't kick in the door waving the .44

Hit em up is one of the greatest diss records of all time

but it wasn't just about BIG

Pac was throwing shots in every direction

and Who Shot Ya is actually a better record

+ Long Kiss, being one of my favorite BIG records of all time

= BIG.

I mean Big actually went and pistol whipped old boy from OGC, but never so much as said Pac's name out loud on his "dis tracks," even after Pac was dead. The only time he said Pac's name was in a line implying that he got Faith pregnant. What kind of man jokes about some guy who is dissing him getting his wife pregnant? That's some weirdo shit. And an automatic L.

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

Pac gets shot
implicates Bad Boy and BIG
Who Shot Ya is released

Even if it wasn't about Pac...which we could argue about, I guess...

DEM MFers KNEW HOW IT WAS GOING TO BE RECEIVED

Pac gets shot...implicates BAD BOY...then BAD BOY releases a record...which ends with BIG shooting an anonymous 'enemy'

but you need him to shout out Pac's name on the record?

c'mon

Even if it wasn't about Pac...they had to know how it would be interpreted

I have no doubt it was about Pac...despite what 'they' say to the media

"Even if that song ain't about me, you should be, like, `I'm not putting it out, 'cause he might think it's about him.' " - 2Pac

The least you can say about Who Shot Ya....is it was its time's Control

i.e. he was dissing anybody claiming the #1 spot, which included Pac

... when they say/said it wasn't about Pac. And everything else you said is correct as well. But the point we're making is that the fact that Big refused to call Pac out by name despite Pac going full-heel against *him* and having no fear of dropping his name, is a point against Big.


>Pac gets shot
>implicates Bad Boy and BIG
>Who Shot Ya is released
>
>Even if it wasn't about Pac...which we could argue about, I
>guess...
>
>DEM MFers KNEW HOW IT WAS GOING TO BE RECEIVED
>
>Pac gets shot...implicates BAD BOY...then BAD BOY releases a
>record...which ends with BIG shooting an anonymous 'enemy'
>
>but you need him to shout out Pac's name on the record?
>
>c'mon
>
>Even if it wasn't about Pac...they had to know how it would be
>interpreted
>
>I have no doubt it was about Pac...despite what 'they' say to
>the media
>
>"Even if that song ain't about me, you should be, like, `I'm
>not putting it out, 'cause he might think it's about him.' " -
>2Pac
>
>The least you can say about Who Shot Ya....is it was its
>time's Control
>
>i.e. he was dissing anybody claiming the #1 spot, which
>included Pac

talkin' 'bout the gats in your raps

You need BIG to say Pac's name...to know he's talking about Pac?

That point isn't worth much to me...having lived through the experience...there was never any doubt from this fan's perspective...and every other hip-hop fan I was around at the time...who these records were about

you want to dock him a point on your scoreboard....go for it

Who Shot Ya and Long Kiss are better records than Hit Em' Up

your extra point for saying the name of every rapper in the business notwithstanding

>RE: So you wanna be hardcore With your hat to the back,
>talkin' 'bout the gats in your raps
>
>You need BIG to say Pac's name...to know he's talking about
>Pac?

... no, man. I literally said "everything you said is correct." Not sure that could possibly be any clearer but lmk.


>That point isn't worth much to me...having lived through the
>experience...there was never any doubt from this fan's
>perspective...and every other hip-hop fan I was around at the
>time...who these records were about

Great. Again, read better before responding. After Pac went at him directly calling him by name multiple times it was corny as hell for Big to respond with sub-disses. Not to mention that he publicly denied that Who Shot Ya was about Pac.


>you want to dock him a point on your scoreboard....go for it
>
>Who Shot Ya and Long Kiss are better records than Hit Em' Up
>
>your extra point for saying the name of every rapper in the
>business notwithstanding

What the hell are you even talking about my man.

A couple of months after hit em up...Pac was dead

I'd imagine that changed Long Kiss...even being on the album was probably a debate

I remember the kool moe dee/BDK beef...they didn't say each other's names

You stated your opinion, I got it

IMO, the BIG records were superior, lyrically

BIG not saying Pac's name won't change my opinion

Especially when Pac had errybody's name in his mouth

What are you trying to convince me of?

I basically only responded to point out that you were still asking questions I'd already answered. LOL.

>What are you trying to convince me of?

>I remember the kool moe dee/BDK beef...they didn't say each
>other's names

I never knew anything about this at all.

>>I remember the kool moe dee/BDK beef...they didn't say each
>>other's names

This is fine. Pac named Big. Big should've then stepped up to the challenge since the gloves were off. In KMD/BDK's situation neither one of them escalated it to that level. In Pac/Big's case someone did. The other continued playing games.

Busy Bee was top dog, #1 MC
Kool Moe Dee is an interesting guy and his backstory is worth reading up on...but he battled Busy Bee live in a club and basically ended dude's career
Busy Bee should've been what Kurtis Blow was
Being that KMD was now the man, he would be challenged
My understanding was BDK took issue with I Go To Work, being that he had released I Get The Job Done
i.e. he didn't appreciate how similar the 2 songs were (yes, this is all it took back then to get checked)
Alot of MCs felt some kind of way about How You Like Me Now
KMD also had a track out Let's Go, which is an LL diss
but BDK also took issue with the line...'make you say daddy I don't want none'
So he lifted it and used it for the chorus of my favorite battle record EVAH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x23XtXbwDc8
I use to play mortal kombat on repeat

I learned all of this later though. When that album came out, that song was my jam.

There's a story out more recently, that BDK tried to use the same path as KMD, and had challenged KMD to a battle while he was still a teenager

KMD laughed it off

KMD's song Let's Go was actually directed at LL
LL responded with Momma Said Knock You Out

Anyway, you can see how saying somebody's name on a diss record wasn't a big deal

THEY KNOW

WE KNOW

EVERYBODY KNOWS who they are talking about

I don't think there's much to the beefs above personally, just KMD had that spot and the young guys came for it

There's a rich history of battling, live and on wax, in hip hop

Definitely worth looking into

It's kind of the way that MCs cut their teeth in the early days

>KMD also had a track out Let's Go, which is an LL diss
>but BDK also took issue with the line...'make you say daddy I
>don't want none'
>So he lifted it and used it for the chorus of my favorite
>battle record EVAH
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x23XtXbwDc8
>I use to play mortal kombat on repeat

I never knew Kane took issue with this. And yes, "Mortal Kombat" is easily one of Kane's best songs. That and "Another Victory" are a killer 1-2 punch from one of the most underrated albums EVER. "It's A Big Daddy Thing" deserves more love.

>KMD's song Let's Go was actually directed at LL
>LL responded with Momma Said Knock You Out

Yeah, I was up on the LL/KMD battle so I'm a bit disappointed in myself that I didn't know about KMD & Kane, although it doesn't sound like it had any bad feelings behind it. It's one thing to battle a dude but another thing for there to be some seriously ill intentions behind it.

>There's a rich history of battling, live and on wax, in hip
>hop

I love when rappers get into it with each other. They know their reps may be on the line and they tend to drop their best material. I don't like seeing it turn violent but if cats don't like each other and keep it on wax, I'm all for it.

Big recorded "What's Beef" to make the point that rap records arent real compared to street shit

2Pac's murder had nothing to do with dissing the East coast

Big's murder had nothing to do with music. hell he never really went back at Pac

Biggie's strategy was not to go back hard at someone killing them on records, it's a strategy that kind of worked.

But to fair we clowning drake right now for something similar (not the exact same so no need to show how the drake response is different).



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

no one believed Bad Boy was above it all back then.

>Big recorded "What's Beef" to make the point that rap records
>arent real compared to street shit
>
>2Pac's murder had nothing to do with dissing the East coast
>
>Big's murder had nothing to do with music. hell he never
>really went back at Pac

And he still didn't say dude's name? Big was shook LMAO

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

like when that was released, it was like oohh shit

EVERYBODY knew who that was about. Nothing on earth is that coincidental..

And given the climate, even if it had nothing to do with PAC, the fact that they still remastered it and put it out showed they didn't care who took it whatever way..

“And you know who we talking about! We ain’t talking about no other rappers. We talking about you. We coming for you”

Yeah, Bad Boy’s innocent image takes a hit with that shit Puff.

Cappadonna talking wild shit in the background as well

Bobby even said the final version might be taking shots at him and Wu over Shark N***

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPbveqb9LE4

"It's just in my nature to love you"

Good lord Puff was feeling himself on that, a little too much.

Should have asked where folks are from before voting. The east west divide is still real.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"