I kept hearing y'all talk about Future on this site so I checked for it on Spotify (ohh, that's what Kwesi's post was about). I just couldn't.

It's kind of annoying that I can't listen to black radio with my kids because of the random f-cked up stuff I am bound to hear. (This easily could be a "what happened to LOVE songs" post).

I've long made the distinction between black culture and black entertainment. When people want to criticize black culture the first thing they do is cite examples of black entertainment as if the two are interchangeable. That's bullshit.

But I am wondering if listening and watching stuff like that all the time, does it take a toll on us?

Poll question: Do you think the negativity in Black Pop Culture hurt us?

Poll result (30 votes) Naw it's just entertainment. (4 votes) Vote Some, but not enough to be overly concerned (2 votes) Vote It's a big issue negatively affecting Black People. (24 votes) Vote

but a lot of middle-class, suburban black kids got on some real thug shit back in the early 90s.

and otherwise dress like they didn't wear jersey's back in the day?

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

Yup, Black women's fault. #Genderwarz back!!

What I recall is that the perception of blackness is narrowly defined so it was either avenue a or avenue b and kids in the suburbs picked what they think they should be doing vs doing whatever feels right

>What I recall is that the perception of blackness is narrowly
>defined so it was either avenue a or avenue b and kids in the
>suburbs picked what they think they should be doing vs doing
>whatever feels right

dropped where I am from, but then I came of age when young people WOULD start smoking weed when the chronic dropped.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

The reason I think I saw a difference was because I have an older brother who was 4 years older than me and they were into drinking but weren't into smoking. When I come through four years later and after the chronic, we were all trying to smoke. Mind you it took actually getting to college before I discovered good weed and actually got high.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

>The reason I think I saw a difference was because I have an
>older brother who was 4 years older than me and they were into
>drinking but weren't into smoking. When I come through four
>years later and after the chronic, we were all trying to
>smoke.

Considering how common weed-smoking has been I'm pretty sure those kids would've been exposed to weed without The Chronic.

breh aint in love no more. ciara made him a monster and he's better for it.

"Get ready..for your blessing..."

It's not like things were peachy-keen with us when our entertainment was less negative. I don't think entertainment has too much impact.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

I don't think negativity in culture is necessarily a negative thing - but hegemony is dangerous, especially when it's a hegemony of negative stereotypes.

The disparity between how media wants to portray Blackness through pop culture as a set of ubiquitous characteristics and how it actually exists in the real world (as a set of 38 million individual personalities and thousands of cultural movements) has caused all sorts of misunderstandings, assumptions and prejudices to become mainstream "truisms".

I've loved Hip Hop since I was a 9 year old kid in rural England without contact with (m)any black people and it has given me cause to find out a lot of truly beautiful pieces of AfAm culture (including avenues of HipHop), but the caricatured and shallow generalisations constantly rolled out to BET and MTV have also become sticks which mainstream America uses, however subconsciously, to keep rank-and-file Black people disproportionately feared, poor and powerless compared to their rank-and-file White counterparts.

But seeing the spread of thug life and gooning to middle class black suburbanites, I might have to change my tune. Millions of marketing dollars have managed to shift the axis Black culture so that it now revolve around Black entertainment.

With that said, I still would not censor artists or posit that "negative" messages
in black music is the main factor creating problems in the black community. Racism is more damaging.

Just hearing suburban people say "Nigga" but sounding as if they have to force their tongue to not pronounce the "er" because they're so used to doing so is hilarity. A lot of them just hold it out..."my nigg-uhhhhhh" so they don't slip and say it wrong.

When we were young we were like "this stuff doesn't affect us", now we are watching young people and we are like "this music is making them dumb".

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

>When we were young we were like "this stuff doesn't affect
>us", now we are watching young people and we are like "this
>music is making them dumb".

on some 'back in my day'. sometimes we paint the picture of our own recent history as all unicorns & rainbows. these kids are not different than we were. they have different tools/access. but we'd be doing the same shit if this was our time of youth.

& honestly its nothing compared to all the other important issues that we are facing.

turn the radio off if you don't deem it appropriate.

its an american trait & we are the uber americans.

but yeah Black people have been bred to have a fuck the world, nobody but me type outlook

instead of the we all coming up outlook other ethnicities have

i could get super deep on this subject but i got a meeting


does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

People who have limited (or no) interaction with Black people rely on media to learn
about us whether consciously or unconsciously...
When they only thing they ever see us doing is acting violently, arguing, etc, it makes
in impression on the brain. Repetition, my friend. "This is what Black people enjoy"

How does that affect us? Try this, watch RHOA, read the Sandra Bland story, and then
look at the general reaction of white america to that a similar stories. We aren't
seen as worthy of life. All we talk about it violence, right? It's not true, but the most
powerful mediums project that image.

Beyond that, we grow up hearing all that "You know black folks don't pay bills on time",
"You know we ain't gon be on time", "Black woman will cuss yo ass out" shit. This is
where it's accepted as our culture BY US. That shit ain't cool and it ain't cute.

I have a white co-worker who used to wild out and has been to jail a few times. She finally called down now that her daughter is 18 and looked like she was headed in the same direction...

but when talking about police and black murders she gives the same bullshit lines as the rest of them. "if people didn't act crazy... " "I hope Charlotte doesn't turn into Ferguson"

just crazy talk but 2 minutes later she is asking if she should send her fiancee ex-wife a fucked up text message cause she is taking him to court AGAIN for more child support.

this woman has 2 baby daddy's, one died of an overdose and the other is running from warrants and moves every 2 months and used to be a big time drug dealer... but she frowns on marijuana.

it's like they have earplugs on when talking about themselves but any issue with blacks gets a bullhorn, subwoofers and blasted on 100 over the speakers.

I got white associates who had kids at 16, had dysfunctional families and do ratchet
shit I've never dreamed of. Like, they talk about having a backpack full of ALL different
kinds of drugs and going over to their partner's house for everyone to take part.
Goddamn selective arresting, but I digress...

I do agree tho, hella white folks (and non-black folks out here) like to pretend anti-Blackness
doesn't exist... and that's because if they acknowledge it, then they have a responsibility
to keep acknowledging it... maybe even try to fix it. Folks like to one-up one another
on how bad their lives are.

All I'm ultimately sayin tho, is that they perpetuate a myth that WE are violent and
criminal when it's really the other way around. Yet, we buy that myth, and sell it back
to ourselves (and them). We need not do that. Whether on a social level or in pop culture.
Pop culture is where we're most guilty of it tho... and yes, they use those of us who'll
do anything to get ahead due to the situation that an anti-Black atmosphere has
left us it... but we do have a responsibility to ourselves.

The sheer volume of negative and ultimately destructive stereotypes/behavior absolutely has to take a toll on our young people.

There's a feedback loop between the street and entertainment that constantly reinforce one another; exhibit A - Chief Keef and Drill music in Chicago.

not even the music
i just hate the lean glorification and him using Yams to do it
this really reinforces that NYC is weak because one of those ASAP kids should slap that fool in the mouth

the image off his album imposed onto his birthmark on his IG?

https://instagram.com/p/5S5nXfkoIP/


or "Long live ASAP Yams/I’m on that codeine right now" off Slave Master?

he's paying him respect just like folks say they're sippin screw or on that big moe.

and i could be wrong but wasnt he mixing lean and henny?? thats a whole different monster

into hip hop vernacular...

i mean no doubt future is depressed but i don't think it applies in this case

.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

If you think it doesn't have much, if any, impact on black people, why do we get bothered or upset when white people portray us negatively?


Also people have made the point in this post but it should be teased out. There are two parts to the negative influence:


Negative influence on us and how we behave and think of ourselves.

And negative influence on white people and how they perceive us and think of us.

I think it's hard to argue that it doesn't happen in the second instance.



>I kept hearing y'all talk about Future on this site so I
>checked for it on Spotify (ohh, that's what Kwesi's post was
>about). I just couldn't.
>
>It's kind of annoying that I can't listen to black radio with
>my kids because of the random f-cked up stuff I am bound to
>hear. (This easily could be a "what happened to LOVE songs"
>post).
>
>I've long made the distinction between black culture and black
>entertainment. When people want to criticize black culture
>the first thing they do is cite examples of black
>entertainment as if the two are interchangeable. That's
>bullshit.
>
>But I am wondering if listening and watching stuff like that
>all the time, does it take a toll on us?
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

>
>If you think it doesn't have much, if any, impact on black
>people, why do we get bothered or upset when white people
>portray us negatively?

Bc the portrayals aren't balanced.

>Negative influence on us and how we behave and think of
>ourselves.
>
>And negative influence on white people and how they perceive
>us and think of us.
>
>I think it's hard to argue that it doesn't happen in the
>second instance.

Bc ppl are stupid. They should be challenged on that point - they should be taught that we are MUCH more than our entertainment.

And btw - they used to lynch us back when our entertainment was less negative. And they enslaved us back b4 we were entertaining them.

>>I kept hearing y'all talk about Future on this site so I
>>checked for it on Spotify (ohh, that's what Kwesi's post was
>>about). I just couldn't.
>>
>>It's kind of annoying that I can't listen to black radio
>with
>>my kids because of the random f-cked up stuff I am bound to
>>hear. (This easily could be a "what happened to LOVE songs"
>>post).
>>
>>I've long made the distinction between black culture and
>black
>>entertainment. When people want to criticize black culture
>>the first thing they do is cite examples of black
>>entertainment as if the two are interchangeable. That's
>>bullshit.
>>
>>But I am wondering if listening and watching stuff like that
>>all the time, does it take a toll on us?
>>
>
>
>**********
>"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then
>they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
>
>
>"One of the most important things in life is what Judge
>Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to
>whether you're

or not.

You seem to start by saying white folks should be corrected because of the imbalance (but why does the imbalance matter if it doesn't negative affect us?)

But then you say they've been treating us like shit since forever (which suggest that harmful portrayals are irrelevant).


>>
>>If you think it doesn't have much, if any, impact on black
>>people, why do we get bothered or upset when white people
>>portray us negatively?
>
>Bc the portrayals aren't balanced.
>
>>Negative influence on us and how we behave and think of
>>ourselves.
>>
>>And negative influence on white people and how they perceive
>>us and think of us.
>>
>>I think it's hard to argue that it doesn't happen in the
>>second instance.
>
>Bc ppl are stupid. They should be challenged on that point -
>they should be taught that we are MUCH more than our
>entertainment.
>
>And btw - they used to lynch us back when our entertainment
>was less negative. And they enslaved us back b4 we were
>entertaining them.
>
>>>I kept hearing y'all talk about Future on this site so I
>>>checked for it on Spotify (ohh, that's what Kwesi's post
>was
>>>about). I just couldn't.
>>>
>>>It's kind of annoying that I can't listen to black radio
>>with
>>>my kids because of the random f-cked up stuff I am bound to
>>>hear. (This easily could be a "what happened to LOVE
>songs"
>>>post).
>>>
>>>I've long made the distinction between black culture and
>>black
>>>entertainment. When people want to criticize black culture
>>>the first thing they do is cite examples of black
>>>entertainment as if the two are interchangeable. That's
>>>bullshit.
>>>
>>>But I am wondering if listening and watching stuff like
>that
>>>all the time, does it take a toll on us?
>>>
>>
>>
>>**********
>>"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then
>>they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
>>
>>
>>"One of the most important things in life is what Judge
>>Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as
>to
>>whether you're
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

>You seem to start by saying white folks should be corrected
>because of the imbalance (but why does the imbalance matter if
>it doesn't negative affect us?)

We complain that we see too many negative portrayals - I complain bc I want to see a broader range bc I would enjoy seeing that broader range not bc I'm clutching my pearls over the negative portrayals.

>But then you say they've been treating us like shit since
>forever (which suggest that harmful portrayals are
>irrelevant).

Yes. The portrayals are not relevant to white ppl's behavior toward us as they treated us WORSE when our entertainment was less negative.

>>>If you think it doesn't have much, if any, impact on black
>>>people, why do we get bothered or upset when white people
>>>portray us negatively?
>>
>>Bc the portrayals aren't balanced.
>>
>>>Negative influence on us and how we behave and think of
>>>ourselves.
>>>
>>>And negative influence on white people and how they
>perceive
>>>us and think of us.
>>>
>>>I think it's hard to argue that it doesn't happen in the
>>>second instance.
>>
>>Bc ppl are stupid. They should be challenged on that point -
>>they should be taught that we are MUCH more than our
>>entertainment.
>>
>>And btw - they used to lynch us back when our entertainment
>>was less negative. And they enslaved us back b4 we were
>>entertaining them.
>>
>>>>I kept hearing y'all talk about Future on this site so I
>>>>checked for it on Spotify (ohh, that's what Kwesi's post
>>was
>>>>about). I just couldn't.
>>>>
>>>>It's kind of annoying that I can't listen to black radio
>>>with
>>>>my kids because of the random f-cked up stuff I am bound
>to
>>>>hear. (This easily could be a "what happened to LOVE
>>songs"
>>>>post).
>>>>
>>>>I've long made the distinction between black culture and
>>>black
>>>>entertainment. When people want to criticize black
>culture
>>>>the first thing they do is cite examples of black
>>>>entertainment as if the two are interchangeable. That's
>>>>bullshit.
>>>>
>>>>But I am wondering if listening and watching stuff like
>>that
>>>>all the time, does it take a toll on us?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>**********
>>>"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then
>>>they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
>>>
>>>
>>>"One of the most important things in life is what Judge
>>>Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as
>>to
>>>whether you're
>>
>
>
>**********
>"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then
>they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
>
>
>"One of the most important things in life is what Judge
>Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to
>whether you're

this country.
What is Black culture to a Black teenager who doesn't read, or travel much? Mass media stereotypes and pop culture. Yes there were the 2 Live Crew's and NWA's when I growing up, but there were also tons of acts that encouraged kids to read books pertaining to history and culture. A lot of those books may not have been 100% factual, but Black popular culture gave me some incentive to read books, point blank period. Historical figures were referenced in raps, and I had to know who those people were to really understand what these guys were talking about. That may not mean much for those of us who grew up in a middle class, two parent home. But many of us aren't so fortunate, and didn't have a wealth of positive influences.

while white people are judged by the best among them.

to this.

rap definitely turned for the worse in the late 80's...early 90's

now I know people will say there was always negative in rap and that is correct but BET used to show uplifting rap videos. They used to have more balance and then poof, it was gone.

De La and little brother said BET told them their videos wouldn't connect with their audience.

Shit was planned and it worked.

...then listen to music that -celebrates- the destruction of black lives is really high.

To be offended by something that an old white man says in a semi-private setting, but -not- be offended at even worse things said about us by our own people. To pretend that the negativity in the culture doesn't matter, but it's the same negativity that's been a blight on our communities.

To me, it's bordering on Uncle Tom-ism. Willing and enthusiastic accomplices to our own destruction. We even make songs about it.

Unfortunately and ironically, anyone that dares to challenge us to do better is immediately ridiculed and called an "Uncle Tom." We're being set up as perpetual victims with no agency and no power, and we can all thumb through a few history books to see how that will work out for us.

i can't seem to wrap my head around that.

it seems like a blatant attack on blacks.

young black men, specifically.

society has given us more opportunity to get ahead, but we were arguably mentally, spiritually and emotionally better off with the black music of the 70s

what I really despise is whites (and other non black/Latinos) celebrating us at our worst

but I think it hurts our people and how we interact with each other

but anything young niggas do gotta be put under a microscope


young MEN have always pushed the edge....
why can't our boys just be boys

however, this is common stuff among minorities - especially disenfranchised minorities.

various immigrant ppls complain about negative portrayals in entertainment. sit down w/a group of Italians and talk about it - you'll hear them bitch about The Godfather and The Sopranos and all of the other mob movies and tv shows where Italians are portrayed as violent criminals wrapped up in organized crime. the Irish bitch about being portrayed as violent, lazy drunks. the Asians worry about being shown as violent thugs all of whom know martial arts. the Latinos worry about being shown as violent drug-dealing thugs w/cartel ties.

we're not alone in this.

Also, saying "white people do it no one scrutinizes them for it" doesn't really answer the underlying question, does it have a negative impact on us.

This really isn't a, are black people downtrodden because of external factors or internal factors post.

I am asking can we listen and watch that shit all day and it not negatively affect how we view ourselves.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

what your askin


if a fool watches pop culture and makes a negative declaration of a race of people based on...music, tv or whatever....then they are retarded.


Is ery Cuban nigga Scarface?
Is ery middle aged white man from Albuguerque cookin meth?
Is ery young white dude from Seattle a suicidal dope fiend?
Is ery young white dude gyming tanning and laundry....bad example


or do they just live their lives and be entertained by entertainment


or is this one of those "we need to be on our best behavior at all times because the white man lookin at us"

I mean, is the current ratchet loving portray of black folks in the media disproportionate? Yup. Is it our faults, NOPE.

Like SoWhat pointed above, back when we were all happy shiny people© REM the stereotypes were just as negative unless you think being seen as subservient and dumb is better than being seen as dangerous and reactionary. Considering what you see out there is the result, and not the cause of, of decades of institutional racism its not as if we can just all collectively decide to wear bow ties and suits at the next black people meeting and it will result in less violence/death/depression in our streets.

I LIKE Future and what he represents; at least he’s not glorifying codine in a ‘We get fucked up and PAAARTY!’ type way like Lil Wayne and dem years ago, it’s crystal clear from his lyrics/titles/hooks even that he’s just self medicating himself against his pain and it’s been a common motif for the past few albums. There’s been a L-O-N-G line of dark rock albums about the highs and lows on depression and drug abuse and they don’t get saddled with being responsible for being the sole representation of white boy rockers, lol.

I have a blog post in my head I need to get the time to write about how Future/Vince Staples/ASAP Rocky/Drake(and his co-writers)/ and Kendrick’s current run of dark as fuck albums is a direct correlation to the facade of post-racial america finally crumbling; even if they don’t touch on the socio-political aspects of it the sudden run of morose ass fuck records you can’t just attribute to lean which id argue is becoming less in popularity compared to its high five years ago.

We are in dark days and the music reflects it back at us, particularly now.

It sounds genuine. Like he's really going through some stuff and it is coming out in his music.
It's like Scarface or Zro. You can hear pain in their songs. On the rock side, its like Nine Inch Nails when Reznor was going through some addiction and depression issues.

I never thought I'd see the day where I would be wax poetically about Future lol

Yes, I know that there are societal ills, beyond our control, thrust upon us. However, when we choose to buy into the myth of the model negro, we advance the idea that we should be scrutinized more than anyone else. It's dehumanizing, because it takes away our latitude to be complex. Furthermore, it romanticizes the past, because songs/art about sex, drugs, murder and the like have always been there. Cliche as it sounds, there is nothing new under the sun.

is the default only other alternative.

I mean the alternative could be music and television like it was 20, 30 years ago (yes this is a very old man argument).

And we can say it's always been there but I think we've reached ratchet levels unseen in history.

I'm just wondering if we are able to tune it out or if it does something to our soul.

This is a question worth pondering irrespective of white people.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

b4 black entertainment became too ratchet for your taste. b/c 20 or 30 yrs ago we were in the throes of the crack epidemic, right? that's just a start.

because we have ratchet entertainment, we are now downtrodden. And once we have wholesome entertainment, then black people will be doing great.

Also not even arguing that whether this is the root cause or primary cause for where we are today.

I think we are all grown up enough to know that the current state of black people is the product of many factors, historical and present, combining to create a gumbo of disparity between us and the rest of America in certain regards.

I am wondering once you stipulate all that, does the negativeness negatively affect us in any form or fashion.

Folks have no problem saying the model magazines contribute to girls having eating disorders.

Is it allowable that the negative entertainment has some sort affect on us?



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

>I am wondering once you stipulate all that, does the
>negativeness negatively affect us in any form or fashion.
>
>Folks have no problem saying the model magazines contribute to
>girls having eating disorders.

that's pretty direct - saturation w/images of thin women in various media has some impact on the prevalence of eating disorders in women and girls.

maybe the conversation will work better if you propose more examples of some specific media something impacting certain behaviors.

previously you suggested that the release of The Chronic resulted in an increase in marijuana consumption among teens. provide more direct examples like that to steer the conversation. b/c right now you're talking in such generality it's hard to know if i agree w/you.

>Is it allowable that the negative entertainment has some sort
>affect on us?

if it does - so what? what's the solution?

b/c Black music has had ratchet elements for a long ass time. It's always been there, because it's a part of being human.

You're free to drown out what doesn't suit you, but let's not act as if this generation invented sex and drugs or even singing about sex and drugs. It's always been there. My point is why do we need to deny our humanity? Why do we need to present a positive image 100% of the time? Who the hell are we trying to impress or fool?

I get asserting a positive image to combat a negative narrative, but at what point do we stop giving a fuck about what white folks think, b/c those who see us negatively did that when we wore tailored clothes and sang christian protest songs. I say, eff that. We're human and we have a right to embrace all aspects of that without being held to an impossibly high standard.

negatively impacts US w/o regard for how it may impact white ppl or their assumptions about us.

I mean, our community has always been divided between the heathens and the saints. That dynamic hasn't really changed all that much. Pop culture, in general, goes farther, but I'm not prepared to put that solely on the shoulders of black entertainers.

The fact is one's homelife is now and has always been the primary factor for determining how one processes entertainment. It's focusing on a symptom rather than the actual cause.

and we know what Maggie Jones's meant when she said "Anybody Here Want to Try My Cabbage?".

But let's not act like that's the same as "Fuck a pussy , Fuck a pussy until it’s numb." Not even the worst lyrics I could find just the first thing of the first track of this future Album I was listening too.

I mean I came of age in the 1990s, a period when lyrics were arguably worse (ninja's still bragging about killing hookers?)

But don't act like music has always been like this.


>b/c Black music has had ratchet elements for a long ass time.
>It's always been there, because it's a part of being human.
>
>You're free to drown out what doesn't suit you, but let's not
>act as if this generation invented sex and drugs or even
>singing about sex and drugs. It's always been there. My point
>is why do we need to deny our humanity? Why do we need to
>present a positive image 100% of the time? Who the hell are we
>trying to impress or fool?

Again, y'all act like the alternative is the Model Negro. Not the case.

>I get asserting a positive image to combat a negative
>narrative, but at what point do we stop giving a fuck about
>what white folks think, b/c those who see us negatively did
>that when we wore tailored clothes and sang christian protest
>songs. I say, eff that. We're human and we have a right to
>embrace all aspects of that without being held to an
>impossibly high standard.


Again, this isn't about white folks or being respectable to them. Said it in my last point. Forget them.

Y'all seem to not be able to think about this not in terms of white people.

My question is do black people listening and watching this stuff from black entertainers do anything negative to us and how we view ourselves?

And if not, then why are folks constantly complaining about negative portrayals of black people in the media??!

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

>My question is do black people listening and watching this
>stuff from black entertainers do anything negative to us and
>how we view ourselves?

I am not going to say that watching horribly bad stimuli won't bleed into your subconscious but like you know the reason why we balk is because the argument usually makes an immediate left turn into ‘blame the victim’ land.

Would I want my child watching and listening what amounts to ‘The Chronic’ blasted at them in 3d whenever he/she sees a black face. No. But I don’t know if the correlation between that and real life is strong. For instance in most of those images my beef is less about the violence, more about the rampant materialism.

I just don't know if its even remotely fair to blame art for real life consequences.

>And if not, then why are folks constantly complaining about
>negative portrayals of black people in the media??!

Nobody wants to be portrayed as a consistent stereotype, particularly in our case when it gets us killed. i know you don't want to bring up whitey but this part of your argument strictly relates to whitey; WE never had a problem poking fun at ourselves.

Asian's are portrayed as the 'model' minority and even they have a huge problem on how they are portrayed.

>and we know what Maggie Jones's meant when she said "Anybody
>Here Want to Try My Cabbage?".
>
>But let's not act like that's the same as "Fuck a pussy
>, Fuck a pussy until it’s numb." Not even the worst
>lyrics I could find just the first thing of the first track of
>this future Album I was listening too.
>
>I mean I came of age in the 1990s, a period when lyrics were
>arguably worse (ninja's still bragging about killing
>hookers?)
>
>But don't act like music has always been like this.

But it has, just not in the mainstream. Now, if we're talking pop culture, in general getting more vulgar, that's on society-at-large, not just black entertainers.

>Again, y'all act like the alternative is the Model Negro. Not
>the case.

So, what are you proposing, because the arguments you're making are generally associated with respectability politics that advance the myth of the model negro?


>Again, this isn't about white folks or being respectable to
>them. Said it in my last point. Forget them.
>
>Y'all seem to not be able to think about this not in terms of
>white people.

That's because it's disingenuous to discuss American Black culture without that context. So much of our pop culture, its consumption and critiques are tied to how we're viewed by white people.

>My question is do black people listening and watching this
>stuff from black entertainers do anything negative to us and
>how we view ourselves?

I think the effects of poverty are far greater. One's homelife generally determine's how one processes entertainment. I think that's a much bigger factor in the state of our community.

>And if not, then why are folks constantly complaining about
>negative portrayals of black people in the media??!

Because it's one-sided. Granted, I can only speak for myself. For me, it's not about eliminating negative portrayals of black people all together. It's about having there be a balance to show that we're complex and varied.

>So, what are you proposing, because the arguments you're
>making are generally associated with respectability politics
>that advance the myth of the model negro?

I don't have a solution. I haven't even really said that there is a problem. I am leaning towards thinking the pop culture negatively affects us on some level but I could be convinced otherwise though.

The funny thing is it's hard to talk about without a lot of disclaimers and side discussions (war on drugs worst, white people do it too) that don't really get to the substantive issue.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

what have you seen in media that has resulted in some undesirable behavior in blacks?

I'm not being snarky. I'm not sure I get what you're trying to talk about. When you say negative effects, what do you mean? How are you separating respectability politics from what's considered positive or negative?

'fuck a pussy til it's numb'

that's not necessarily 'negative'. what makes it so?

it's a thing.

>is the default only other alternative.
>
>I mean the alternative could be music and television like it
>was 20, 30 years ago (yes this is a very old man argument).
>
>And we can say it's always been there but I think we've
>reached ratchet levels unseen in history.
>
>I'm just wondering if we are able to tune it out or if it does
>something to our soul.
>
>This is a question worth pondering irrespective of white
>people.

tune out. So I do think it affects us, because we generally aren't as worldly or well educated as some of other people in the US from the "African diaspora". Plus our family structures aren't intact, so that makes it even harder to pull away from pop culture.

people" argument.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

>people" argument.

stand by this sentiment. Maybe there is a better way to put the whole idea, but I'm at a loss right now. It's what makes the most sense to me from what I've seen, even though I realize I'd be offended if Bill O'Reilly said it.
Seriously if you didn't know better, and/or you didn't have anyone around you doing better, don't you think it would have been more difficult to separate your teenage self from Black pop culture?
To be clear, this isn't about finances, it's about education.

Let my love slide in and never slip out

But have fun being old & conservative

For real, I think the lack of options hurts more than anything. We either niggas or kings or bitches or queens (c)

the points people always touch on are:


-doesnt matter what you do you still a nigga and they hate you

-fuck what white people think

-this is an old and out of touch way of seeing things

-get on the coon train

-they hated us even when we made happy music


ugh.


cant this discussion be had where the framing DOES NOT rope in the inclusion/perception of whites towards blacks?

cant the discussion just be....this shit (art) sucks...something is wrong with this picture, why cant we do better?

cant the discussion ever just be an internal looking thing instead of OMGHOWWILLWELOOKTOWHITEPEOPLE and FUCKTHEMCRACKERS!WEDOWHATWEWANT?

It's like we dodge the question of personal or intra-racial accountability by pulling out Caine in Menace's line, "Ain't nothing gonna change if we do _______, we're still gonna be black. Just more niggas from the ghetto."

IMHO, our future will be much more determined by how we think of and what we do for ourselves than ANYTHING anyone else thinks, says, or does to us.

>It's like we dodge the question of personal or intra-racial
>accountability by pulling out Caine in Menace's line, "Ain't
>nothing gonna change if we do _______, we're still gonna be
>black. Just more niggas from the ghetto."
>
>IMHO, our future will be much more determined by how we think
>of and what we do for ourselves than ANYTHING anyone else
>thinks, says, or does to us.

the dialog drops dead once someone drops that bomb, and I don't deny that it that this is a part of the dialog but I dont think that it should be the central focus of this discussion.

Some people have framed it that way (you can tell in their responses), and are needlessly defense because of it.

Let my love slide in and never slip out

you dislike the art? don't consume it. other ppl like it though and they're going to consume it.

/discussion.

>you dislike the art? don't consume it. other ppl like it
>though and they're going to consume it.


No one will disagree with this. I don't even think anyone in here has at all raised the subject of banning certain negative art.

The question which folks seem to dodge is "does this art have a negative effect on the black folks that consume it".




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

>The question which folks seem to dodge is "does this art have
>a negative effect on the black folks that consume it".

that statement is too general for me to know if i agree w/it. i don't know what you mean by 'negative effect'. i don't know what art you're talking about, either.

>I kept hearing y'all talk about Future on this site so I
>checked for it on Spotify (ohh, that's what Kwesi's post was
>about). I just couldn't.
>
>It's kind of annoying that I can't listen to black radio with
>my kids because of the random f-cked up stuff I am bound to
>hear. (This easily could be a "what happened to LOVE songs"
>post).

>I've long made the distinction between black culture and black
>entertainment. When people want to criticize black culture
>the first thing they do is cite examples of black
>entertainment as if the two are interchangeable. That's
>bullshit.
>
>But I am wondering if listening and watching stuff like that
>all the time, does it take a toll on us?
>


You haven't given anything definitive. Negative meaning what? Selling/Doing drugs? Murder? police harassment? misogyny? homophobia? I mean what exactly are you talking about? Cause all of those things are happening in Black culture on a large scale. None of this being in music hurts us. It is simply the truth for the most part and not for all Black americans but those that participate in street activities, negativity is their reality. It may not be the whole story to black culture but it is definitely apart of it.

in any manner.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

>in any manner.
>
>
>**********
>"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then
>they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
>
>
>"One of the most important things in life is what Judge
>Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to
>whether you're


So this is in regards to others' opinions of us based on the music that we make and consume correct?

If so, then yes it will affect others' opinion of us but only those that have no understanding of black culture IMO.

does consumption by blacks of certain 'negative' art featuring blacks produce undesirable behavior in black ppl?

>does consumption by blacks of certain 'negative' art
>featuring blacks produce undesirable behavior in black ppl?

I think too much negativity can affect us for sure especially when the people listening don't practice positive thinking. Because being positive in a negative world is a practice.

>does consumption by blacks of certain 'negative' art
>featuring blacks produce undesirable behavior in black ppl?

Does the negativity in black pop culture entertainment have a negative effect behaviorally or internally (self-esteem, self-worth) on black people.

I mean we had a white person in this post who didn't grow up around black people and his image of black people was formed by what he saw in pop culture but let's leave white folks off the table for now.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

Reasonable people can disagree but for me it's:

Materialism
Glorification of drugs and violence
objectification of women
casual reference to our women as bitches and hos
the misogyny

The question is do we internalize all this stuff and:

Feel bad about ourselves because we don't have the material wealth that is glorified in the music and on tv.

More open to drug use and violence.

Quicker to objectify women, or call them bitches and hoes, and treat them poorly.

Now people's list of the negativity will be different but don't act totally brand new like you have no idea what I am talking about.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

do you think that 'negativity' has influenced blacks?

if so, why do you think so? if not, why not?

>do you think that 'negativity' has influenced blacks?

I think it probably has to. I think it's anything you constantly hear and see has to influence you some how. If I were raised in a home where Fox News was always on, I think it would somehow shape my views. If I was raised in a house where I was in church and listened to gospel music all the time, I think it would have to effect me.

That being said, my great debate is the extent of that influence. I think for people with counter-influence, that influence can be marginal.

I grew up on gangsta rap, but I love my momma, grandma, aunts and the other great women I grew up with so it didn't shape my opinion of women...that much (I think bitch is in my vocab probably because of my music choices.

So I think that's truth for most people who have counter-influences.

>
>if so, why do you think so? if not, why not?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

>Now people's list of the negativity will be different

you might think glorification of drugs is bad.

but what kind of art are ppl that are pro drugs supposed to listen to?

gospel records?

lol


even racists need pro racists art.

and ppl that ain't down with that need to push back.

just like i push back when prudes clutch pearls at music that glorify sex.

the bigger danger is having
popular art only send one message.

we are all humans, and our art represents all of us.

now in terms of what gets promoted and what gets ignored by mainstream media outlets...

that's another conversation entirely.

and probably, a more meaningful one.



but
>don't act totally brand new like you have no idea what I am
>talking about


we get it.
we get in where we fit in.

art is supposed to piss ppl off sometimes.
for some art, that's the entire point of it.

if i had my way, clubs would still be bumping stevie wonder and
marvin gaye and michael jackson, 24/7.

but that would be a boring world, wouldn't it?
you'd get sick of hearing that bullshit all the time, wouldn't you?


i hate the chronic, as an album, and a concept,
but that album needs to be here.

precisely because i DON'T like it.

niki minage needs to make her dumb anoconda song.
because like it or not, that record does speak to a part of the human condition.

and who says it's a "negative"?
just because i don't like it?



please.


yes, i am glad r. kelly is still releasing dumb songs
about girls reminding him of his jeep.

because all my haughty-taughty "sexy" music don't cut it sometimes.



we need all the voices in art.
even the ones we dislike.
especially the ones we dislike.

if for no other reason for us to refine our ideas of what we don't like about it... and why stevie wonder is a genius, because
he has something other ppl don't.




i am sure that if there was a mainstream pop hit
about a man blowing another man,
some ppl would be offended.

that doesn't mean that the record shouldn't be made,
or that it is having a negative impact on our values.




by the same token, if ppl wanna make and listen to songs
about bustin caps... they need to make that record.
because bustin caps is a part of the human condition,
and the art needs to reflect that.



the problem, to the extent there is one,
is there are not ENOUGH diverse representations in mainstream media.


at this point in my life, i can listen only to music i already like and agree with on spotify.


that's not necessarily healthy.
because where is the challenge?




r. kelly
rick ross
michael jackson
stevie wonder
robin thicke

hell... even, and i hate to admit this... PUFFY....

we all need to be exposed to that stuff.
so we can make up our own mind.


because do you know what happens when art gets self sensored,
and only songs with "positive" messages get promoted?



we go decades in a war with only john mayer writing a war protest song that was a mainstream hit.



all the art should be released and promoted.
it's YOUR job to make sense of it and decide if you like it.


one persons rebel music is another person's "cultural decline."



we need it all.
the chips will fall where they do, and that's fine.

we can't cry out for our humanity to be acknowledged and then turn around and get upset when our humanity is exhibited.

Edit* This reply was intended for both Mike Jackson & Starbaby

The value of art that promotes negative values is a separate non-controversial discussion. I say non-controversial because I think everyone would agree that there is great art that promotes negative values (to some or most people).

Also no one is talking about curtailing such art.

The question being asked here is, does such art have a negative effect on people (regardless of it's artistic merit).


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

>The question being asked here is, does such art have a
>negative effect on people (regardless of it's artistic
>merit).
>


whether the affect is negative depends on ones perspective.

did punk rock make me more skeptial of authirity?

is that negative?


does public enemy make me more militant?

is that negative?



did jay z make me want to make more money?

is that negative?



that depends on who is judging me, i guess.


and millions of ppl heard the same records I did, and yet, only I became exactly like me.


so until you get more specific,
this post just reads like pearl clutching at ppl hearing art that reinforces messages you don't like.



i wish that hip hop never became more popular than michael jackson. michael jackson's music was more positive- to me.

but hio hop is more popular than michael jackson, and I am pretty sure that is fine.

I can't generalize and say that
the music now has a " negative influence" just because I like it less.

You keep saying that though. Terrible assumption.

You said nothing of how this particular art is marketed and promoted to our community
almost exclusively. The lack of intelligence in the music and required to consume it is,
indeed, having a negative affect on our youth. And for a nigga who had the gall to tell
me I sound like a parody of Black empowerment, you're further proving that anything
more than apathy with regard to our people, qualifies as such for you.

A war has been waged on us, in case you haven't noticed. The kumbaya we-need-it-all
attitude isn't exactly the tactic we need to employ. Drastic times call for drastic measures,
and ignoring the things helping to destroy our youth is not something
WE can afford to do. I get it, Joe... you don't care enough to be bothered... you don't
have prejudice, because you hate everyone equally... but some of us love our people.

You do this in damn near every discussion tho. You find an angle where you're above
it all and it's not that important... nothing really matters. Only you type 2000 words to
say it, unlike BrooklynWHAT who at least keeps his dispassion at one line. Maybe you
are a psychopath, but your psychopathic ass just needs to be honest about that.

>You said nothing of how this particular art is marketed and
>promoted to our community
>almost exclusively.









The lack of intelligence in the music and
>required to consume it is,
>indeed, having a negative affect on our youth. And for a
>nigga who had the gall to tell
>me I sound like a parody of Black empowerment, you're further
>proving that anything
>more than apathy with regard to our people, qualifies as such
>for you.
>
>A war has been waged on us, in case you haven't noticed. The
>kumbaya we-need-it-all
>attitude isn't exactly the tactic we need to employ. Drastic
>times call for drastic measures,
>and ignoring the things helping to destroy our youth is not
>something
>WE can afford to do. I get it, Joe... you don't care enough
>to be bothered... you don't
>have prejudice, because you hate everyone equally... but some
>of us love our people.
>
>You do this in damn near every discussion tho. You find an
>angle where you're above
>it all and it's not that important... nothing really matters.
>Only you type 2000 words to
>say it, unlike BrooklynWHAT who at least keeps his dispassion
>at one line. Maybe you
>are a psychopath, but your psychopathic ass just needs to be
>honest about that.
>


k.

The negative is so negative because it's all there is, and it glorifies an inflicted circumstance.

I know tho Joe... it depends on how you look at murder, drug addicton and starvation. It can be a plus, right?

>I know tho Joe... it depends on how you look at murder, drug
>addicton and starvation. It can be a plus, right?
>
>


"ice cube will storm on any motherfucker in a Blue uniform."
did I get that lyric right?


anyway, is that a positive message?

it might be.
even though that lyric is arguably about murder.

or maybe it's a revenge fantasy.

i really don't know if the message is good or bad.


maybe we all need to decide to take from art for ourselves.

And 50 Cent will hog-tie your grandmother and your daughter.

Is that positive? Maybe he's tied them up to feed them carrots because they refuse
to eat their vegetables.

Lil Wayne says he'll murder your bitch and send her body back to your ass

Positive? Negative? Probably positive because maybe you wanted her dead. Maybe
you learned not to leave your "bitch" around Lil Wayne. So much to be learned from that.
Maybe you learned that women are bitches and that saved you a lot of heartache...
or helped you realize you were gay.


And we know NWA were generally protesting police treatment of civilians... you're being dishonest.

>And 50 Cent will hog-tie your grandmother and your daughter.
>

sounds like a horror movie.
or are we assuming Black artists work is always litteral?

if so, that's a shame.
because some of this shit might be for lol's. or shock value.
or not intended to be taken as life advice.

was NWA literal or ironic when they said "life ain't nothing but bitches as money"?






>Is that positive? Maybe he's tied them up to feed them
>carrots because they refuse
>to eat their vegetables.
>

or, it could be a joke.
I seriously doubt eminem wants to take 7 kids from columbine, put em in line, and (whatever he said).

just like steely dan does not
intend to show porno flicks to children.

how come only certain ppl get to
not have their art taken literaly?



>Lil Wayne says he'll murder your bitch and send her body back
>to your ass
>


Tarantino could make a movie around that subject and it's art.

a rapper does it, and now it's life instructions?

please.



>Positive? Negative? Probably positive because maybe you
>wanted her dead. Maybe
>you learned not to leave your "bitch" around Lil Wayne. So
>much to be learned from that.
>Maybe you learned that women are bitches and that saved you a
>lot of heartache...
>or helped you realize you were gay.
>
>

btw, I barely like rap.
but I know enough about it to know that it is not intended as
life advice.

I think Black ppl are capable of understanding irony, hyperbole,
fantasy, and all of that.

why is our art always said to be so literal?

it's just a song.



>And we know NWA were generally protesting police treatment of
>civilians... you're being dishonest.
>
>



and sometimes they were on some bullshit.

which is FINE.

I mean, damn.

hate to say it, but... it's just music.

You know Lil Wayne really does claim to be a Blood.
That ain't fiction.

The movie angle is something rappers and its defenders always use when they get
questioned... but all the rest of the time, they so real.

And yeah, I do think some rappers are just talking shit and people realize that.
Like nobody believed Tyler was really raping women or that Eminem did all
the outlandish shit he said, but there's a difference in that kind of presentation
and the glorification of pitching coke, being financially irresponsible or braggin
about how you got the heat so a nigga better not run up on you... especially when
these kinds of things get a Black youth jailed longer and quicker than anyone else.

You know the difference.

prince claimed to play 27 instruments.

MJ claimed some kids on the street taught him the moonwalk.

in other words, it's show business.

as in, not real.

as in, get a grip.

yes, some of them are about that life.

sinatra was too.

so what?


>You know Lil Wayne really does claim to be a Blood.
>That ain't fiction.
>
>The movie angle is something rappers and its defenders always
>use when they get
>questioned... but all the rest of the time, they so real.
>
>And yeah, I do think some rappers are just talking shit and
>people realize that.
>Like nobody believed Tyler was really raping women or that
>Eminem did all
>the outlandish shit he said, but there's a difference in that
>kind of presentation
>and the glorification of pitching coke, being financially
>irresponsible or braggin
>about how you got the heat so a nigga better not run up on
>you... especially when
>these kinds of things get a Black youth jailed longer and
>quicker than anyone else.
>




>You know the difference.


the difference is, i can distinguish fiction from reality, and I think other ppl can, to.

even "impressionable youth."

in·ter·nal·ize
inˈtərnlˌīz/Submit
verb
Make (attitudes or behavior) part of one's nature by learning or unconscious assimilation.

I'll never agree with the "art makes people do bad things" argument, but I think that folks
essentially saying "(some) art makes people feel bad things" cannot be questioned. It happens.

I think it's a reasonable line of inquiry to examine what aspects of ratchet entertainment
are being internalized by impressionable (read: young) and ignorant (read:uninformed)
people especially.