My daughter is devouring books these days. She'll go to the library and check out like ten a week. At this point I've been relatively hands off about it, but been thinking about slipping some things into her stacks. Got me wondering though, does she need to read stuff like Huck Finn and Moby Dick these days?

Are the classics of literature still relevant or just classics? Are there new classics that need to be a part of every child's education?

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

she went through nancy drew, read the harry potter joints taking them like a book every two days. i mean literally anything. i've gotten her stuff like the one and only ivan and akata witch. she's really into series and especially mystery adventures, right now going through the 39 clues series. but again she'll read anything.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Hercule Poirot and Miss Marple. Good stuff.

James Patterson also apparently writes YA novels. Especially this one series that was based off of his book, "Where the Wind Blows". It's a dope blend of sci fi and mystery.

There's also the Repairman Jack series, another sci fi, supernatural mystery blend.

And there's also the Cases of Judge Dee by Robert Van Gulik. Asian magistrate that dispenses order though the land by solving complex crimes.

She's 10 though so I'd say start slow.



"i wanna hug all u idiotic bastards & then set you all on fire" -Bin

www.twitter.com/bedstuybetty
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DROkayplayer: Giving you good puff since May '05

She's done some of the comprehension testing for the books that have them though. She's also been working on writing her own story. But reading is still before everything. When I say she reads all the time... she reads all the time.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

They need to learn to enjoy reading before they get into the classics. and how do they do that? Young adult fiction.

Nothing wrong with a kid taking on the Nancy Drew books before he/she gets to Melville.

And yes, classic lit has timeless themes and motifs to the human experience.

But things like Moby Dick, even when she's older... I just don't know. Half the classics I know I read at some point mean little to nothing to me now.

What are these themes and why are they important? Or more importantly why is it important to get them from these books?

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

if she doesn't read them now. of course, she can always read them when she's older.

i dunno where she sees her life going and/or in which direction you plan to push her, but like it or not, there's a canon of lit that will be referenced over and over if she ends up in the higher reaches of education. basically if she's gonna hang w/the smart kids she'll be better off if she's read what they've read. and they read the classics, as far as i know. or they did when i was hanging w/them. thankfully i'd read most of what they'd read so i could keep up. but if i hadn't i might've been frustrated.

outside of education - there are adult conversations where the classics come up. my boss likes to make references to classic lit in work conversations. i've been at dinner parties and cocktail hours and networking events where ppl have dropped references. if she's going to be involved in literature at all as a career or just a personal interest she'll run across references to the classics. she's better off knowing what's being referenced but if she doesn't she can read up on that stuff later.

outside of that stuff...the so-called classics are by and large good reads. fun, even. i can think of few i've read w/o enjoying - even if i was frustrated by the reading at the beginning or at some other point.

i can't think of good reasons NOT to read them. i can think of good reasons not to LIMIT one's reading to the classics, of course.

and she very well may do that. but the whole required reading is what i'm questioning.

she's got a teenager she looks up to and she's read through them all. i've had discussions with her and she can reference them but kinda shurgs at the importance of them. but she has the ones she likes and is always passing books to my daughter so she may get them that way.

i guess my wonder is if there needs to be proaction on my thought, or concern if she avoids them all together.

then the question i just tacked on of which ones are still relevant and why.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

you might wanna expose her to any classics you've read and enjoyed, at least.

if not to prepare her then at least b/c you like them and y'all can discuss them if y'all want.

i had to read Wuthering Heights in high school and i HATED IT. i talked to my mom about it though and she helped me through it. then after i finished i ended up really enjoying the book and our talk about it. we did something similar w/Beloved - she pushed me to keep reading it and once i did we had great discussions about it.

we do the same thing w/movies and other art.

she is not interested in. if it's really important to you, give her an incentive... ie $5 for every book on this list. I would add book reports because what's the point of reading the books if she is not learning how to think critically about what she reading.

you can get a list of books at the library. or do a google search:
http://www.greatschools.org/students/books/412-recommended-college-bound.gs

the library summer book club challenge last year was to read 10 books over the summer. she did well over 30. all the librarians love her and that's where she gets a lot of suggestions.

comprehension to me isn't just about reports. like i said she does the tests and quizes for books that have them because she enjoys those. we have deep discussions about what she reads during which i can get a good gauge of how much she's getting. and then her own writing is a reflection of what she's been reading. she loves books. wants to be a librarian when she grows up.

i think in this regard i'm lucky with her. but i wonder about the necessity of it all.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

writing free form makes you think more.... i think quizzes stunt ideas... ie the right answer is limited to one of these 4 choices...

and honestly I thank them for it

I was always a whiz in English class and I thoroughly enjoyed them but I wouldn't have even touched them if they weren't recommended or sometimes forced on me. I would have read Goosebumps til the wheels fell off if they hadn't

If you can force veggies on your kids, you can force good classical lit.

"i wanna hug all u idiotic bastards & then set you all on fire" -Bin

www.twitter.com/bedstuybetty
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DROkayplayer: Giving you good puff since May '05

titles you're citing.

they're classics for a reason and it'd be a way better look for her to have exposure to them now especially before her peers as they will address these titles eventually in class, she'll have a leg up.

while you might not see the value, you've already been to school and equipping her with classic prose only serves to expand her mind.

I'm not about to go through each book and tell you why they're awesome though

"i wanna hug all u idiotic bastards & then set you all on fire" -Bin

www.twitter.com/bedstuybetty
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DROkayplayer: Giving you good puff since May '05

are there classics that should be reevaluated in a modern context? this reminds me.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

and i think that, along with fluency in other social norms, are critical to one's ability to effectively express ideas and participate in broader discourse

i mean where are the classics showing up in modern life where that investment really pays off? do people that can quote the classics have a true advantage in the modern world?

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>i mean where are the classics showing up in modern life where
>that investment really pays off?

just the other day i either read or heard someone relate Empire and Oedipus Rex. if i weren't familiar w/the OR story i wouldn't have known what they're talking about. of course, my life would've gone on w/o getting that reference.

do people that can quote the
>classics have a true advantage in the modern world?

i dunno.

not that getting into an elite college is mark of true advantage or even something you or your daughter value, but i don't see a person being admitted to one of them w/o having taken high school classes that would expose the person to classic lit. but i applied for college 21 yrs ago and things may have changed.

>just the other day i either read or heard someone relate
>Empire and Oedipus Rex.

the jogging of my memory about what are those universal refs that come from lit. that's a pretty funny one though.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

insomuch as it is the need to understand the turns of phrase or idioms derived from them, mainly because those phrases are still used in common parlance. whether it be one's white whale or to cast pearls before swine or a Sisyphean task or a Herculean effort. some phrases come out of vogue (like how we say "between a rock and a hard place" rather than "between Scylla and Charybdis"), but in general i'd say it's good practice in general. besides some of those stories are good, regardless of cultural significance.

I don't know how much it's changed over time, but I remember some of the reading comprehension sections in PSAT and SAT would have some pretty dense material and if you weren't familiar with material like it, it could throw you for a loop. I believe I took my PSAT around her age.

The exposure to the grammar, the way thoughts are expressed, even the vocabulary pays dividends down the road.

>I don't know how much it's changed over time, but I remember
>some of the reading comprehension sections in PSAT and SAT
>would have some pretty dense material and if you weren't
>familiar with material like it, it could throw you for a loop.

I don't remember specific refs but that was a long time ago. The way I remember it there would be a section to read and then comment on. But maybe I'm off.

>I believe I took my PSAT around her age.

Interesting.

>The exposure to the grammar, the way thoughts are expressed,
>even the vocabulary pays dividends down the road.

Now this I can see though I wonder if there are other means.


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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

the mind and critical thinking skills.

it's not like you're gonna let your daughter give you this argument when it comes to advanced calculus so why would you give any less credence to books no matter how old they are?


"i wanna hug all u idiotic bastards & then set you all on fire" -Bin

www.twitter.com/bedstuybetty
http://bedstuybetty.tumblr.com/
DROkayplayer: Giving you good puff since May '05

something something about universal themes and tried and true good old fashioned entertainment sprinkled in with understanding cultural references throughout life and what was historically acknowledged and widely read as quality writing

i'm just da'ing here.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

for my daughter it could end up being a calling for her to get into literature. my son however may not ever get into reading like that. do they both *need* the exposure to the classics to do well in life?

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

let's go back to the mona lisa then, and i'm just going to be general. the mona lisa may not be person A's ideal of beauty, person A may not want to go into painting even after (s)he sees it, and the mona lisa certainly isn't new, but it is a cultural touchstone that will come up again and again and it helps person A understand what other people consider great (and even the pinnacle of) art. to me, the same applies to classic literature and other widely embraced creative works across all media. beyond that, person A just might really enjoy it as millions of others have throughout history. some works of art are rightfully remembered.

i remember the books when i was a teenager that helped shape my worldview. your children aren't necessarily at that stage yet, but a love of reading should certainly be fostered. loving to read when i was younger helped me out in life and made the classics i had to read in later years enjoyable. most of them i think i read at about the right time, which is to say older than your children, but to prepare them for that time and the rest of their lives they should be reading quality literature that is appropriate for their age but challenging. a lot of the classics are both quality and challenging, but as parents you decide if it's appropriate or what the children might get out of it.

on a side note, there are so many classics i wish i *had* read when i was younger, and i still plan to read them.

>something something about universal themes and tried and true
>good old fashioned entertainment sprinkled in with
>understanding cultural references throughout life and what was
>historically acknowledged and widely read as quality writing

I think you know that though. I took a course on the philosophy art and we tried to determine what constitutes as "Timeless" art which lasts the generations, and without boring you with the details, there is a ton of it.

Are the classics relevant of course. Our culture is heavily shaped by and cataloged in those novels which is why they are classics.

Moby dick is a incredible novel, allegory, parable whatever you wanna call it that gains more relevance as I get older

People shat on Hemingway recently...those people are morons.

does it really matter?

for all my fans who keep my name in their mouth: http://i.imgur.com/v2xNOpS.jpg

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

moral conflict
i could on

>People shat on Hemingway recently...those people are morons.
>
that was our boy Deej...

I love Hemmingway for style, tone, and conviction though, not just for themes or the actual content of the stories.

If she's into mystery, she will most likely enjoy it.

Devouring everything from teen trash to classics. Pretty much had free reign over what I wanted to get from the library/ buy at book shops. If I got into an author or a series I tried to read everything by them. My mother would also buy me classics that I wouldn't have chosen but I read them anyway, which was great not only in exposure, but in terms of more challenging content at a younger age. Not that YA fiction won't do that, but less so. Basically, encourage, make suggestions, but don't force it. Any that I missed out on, and there are still lots, I picked up later. Because I already had a strong foundation, it was easy to do so.

>My mother would also buy me classics
>that I wouldn't have chosen but I read them anyway, which was
>great not only in exposure, but in terms of more challenging
>content at a younger age. Not that YA fiction won't do that,
>but less so. Basically, encourage, make suggestions, but don't
>force it.

I know I can slip some in at this point and she'll just devour it but I don't want to turn her off from my suggestions by getting her something she's not going to relate to.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

if she reads any and doesn't like them you can explain why you like them and why you thought she should read them. if she likes them then y'all can discuss why. etc etc.

do you like any?

That may take a little more handholding though. And I guess those are a different breed of literary. I'm not sure i have any favorites of the true literary classics. Perhaps that's why I'm asking.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

I have two very much loved volumes of illustrated, abridged Shakespeare from when I was a kid, and they really eased me into the full versions later on.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

http://www.amazon.com/DAulaires-Greek-Myths-Ingri-dAulaire/dp/0440406943

I loved loved loved my copy to death as a kid.


There's also a guy named Jim Weiss who's done a lot of audiobooks with his retellings of classics. He's a great storyteller/reader/narrator: http://www.greathall.com/


(I know, this is about books, not audiobooks)

I'm pretty sure my 6th grade social studies teacher thought I was gonna steal it one day

I didn't



but I wanted to though


"i wanna hug all u idiotic bastards & then set you all on fire" -Bin

www.twitter.com/bedstuybetty
http://bedstuybetty.tumblr.com/
DROkayplayer: Giving you good puff since May '05

the comedies appealed to me alot more

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

It's not as if she likes everyone she chooses herself, or that the older teen gives her, surely? You'd probably be surprised by her discerning abilities. Lol. So keep on with your suggestions, she'll read some & leave others, as she should.

I think the kids are more likely to gravitate toward lighter more modern stuff when reading on their own (though my oldest just finished the entire Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind, definitely not light reading. He really loves comics though, and Nausicaa is his favorite movie.)

But on the other hand I'm kinda shocked at how few of their friends are even remotely interested in books in general, so it's not like they go to school and talk about Abel's Island instead of Minecraft or whatever the hell game they're into today. Mostly when I hear abotu what other kids are reading, it's because it's something popular (Harry Potter, a few tried The Hobbit back when the first movie came out, etc.) And some of the teachers, when I talk about the kinds of things my kids like to read, just get blank looks on their faces.

One of the things I like to do is compare the same story as told in various mediums... typically I like to read or listen to the book first, then watch the movie or movies, but it doesn't always work that way.

But yeah, we've had good success with
-all the age-appropriate Roald Dahl books
-Shel Silverstein books/poetry (my daughter was very disappointed I refused to get her Uncle Shelby's ABZs)
-The Borrowers (though we only read the first volume, after seeing The Secret World of Arietty)
-Abel's Island
-Stuart Little
-The Mouse & the Motorcycle
-The Wind in the Willows
-The Incredible Journey
-the Beezus & Ramona books (Beverly Cleary)
-Mr. Popper's Penguins
-Currently working through the Mary Poppins books for bedtime reading
-Currently working through the Narnia audiobooks in the car


Couple I'd never read as a kid that went over well:
-Bedknob & Broomstick
-Freddie the Detective
-My Father's Dragon


Modern classics:
-A Series of Unfortunate Events (I'd consider them a modern classic; I'd recommend the audiobooks,mostly narrated by Tim Curry, and phenomenal. But even the books are okay, and Snicket's got a new spinoff series out called 'The wrong Questions' which we're reading and which gives me a chance to practice my noir voice. Great stuff. And the companion record ain't bad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5RocvYrpmI)
-Neil Gaiman books (Coraline is fantastic. The Graveyard Book was great but my oldest got scared and asked me to stop.)
-Howl's Moving Castle (in conjunction with the movie, again)
-They love the Cornelia Funke books, but I'm not a particularly big fan
-Kate DiCamillo books: we haven't read them all but we've loved the ones we have, from the kiddy books up through the novels.
-Holes

We haven't read any Avi books but our librarian loves him and has recommended him to us.

Looking very forward to reading both the Lloyd Alexander books and the Susan Cooper books before too long since the kids love fantasy. I tried audiobooks of each a while ago, and the narrator on the Cooper books was too dry. The Alexander books went over well but the idea of the Cauldron-born scared the shit out of the kids even though zombies are everywhere in kids' games and whatnot.
Also Harry Potter... haven't read those to them yet b/c the oldest does get scared. Maybe another year or two.

I wonder how they stack up as 'literary clasics'

You know me though, I'm not big on the formalities of such labels.

>But on the other hand I'm kinda shocked at how few of their
>friends are even remotely interested in books in general, so
>it's not like they go to school and talk about Abel's Island
>instead of Minecraft or whatever the hell game they're into
>today.

Whole other topic, but what do you think of minecraft? Can I just say that I spent like a month last year setting up a private server for the kids only to have it made completely moot after Microsoft bought them. So pissed about that shit.

>Mostly when I hear abotu what other kids are reading,
>it's because it's something popular (Harry Potter, a few tried
>The Hobbit back when the first movie came out, etc.) And some
>of the teachers, when I talk about the kinds of things my kids
>like to read, just get blank looks on their faces.

That's disheartening.

>One of the things I like to do is compare the same story as
>told in various mediums... typically I like to read or listen
>to the book first, then watch the movie or movies, but it
>doesn't always work that way.

We did that with Harry Potter, and it was great just watching them complain about how much was left out of the movies. Sure they still enjoyed them, but I think it was a quick lesson on the value of books.

>-Currently working through the Narnia audiobooks in the car

How do you feel about audiobooks in general. They actually were able to bring my son and daughter together on reading where before my son (younger) was starting to despise all the time his sister was spending reading. But he's still not quite about the reading on his own thing and I wonder if audiobooks could actually be stifling that.

>-My Father's Dragon

Author is a family friend (lol I know what you're thinking). We stayed in her house and she read it to them. She's got a barn which she calls the little people's barn because she built out a whole little village inside of it. So much fun for the kids.


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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>>-My Father's Dragon
>
>Author is a family friend (lol I know what you're thinking).
>We stayed in her house and she read it to them. She's got a
>barn which she calls the little people's barn because she
>built out a whole little village inside of it. So much fun
>for the kids.

I knew those books were written starting in the late '40s. Sounds like a great experience for the kids, though.


>Whole other topic, but what do you think of minecraft?

I simply don't get the appeal.

I guess in some ways it should be good for problem-solving, setting goals and figuring out how to achieve them. But it usually seems to devolve into running around smashing things.

>>One of the things I like to do is compare the same story as
>>told in various mediums...

>We did that with Harry Potter, and it was great just watching
>them complain about how much was left out of the movies. Sure
>they still enjoyed them, but I think it was a quick lesson on
>the value of books.

It's *always* a lesson in the value of books. Unless Hayao Miyazaki made a movie out of it.
I think the best success in this area was The Wind in the Willows. We listened to a great audiobook, read the comic adaptation, and watched three different movie versions (and didn't even get to the Disney one.)
Also good was the Roald Dahl books, bringing into the conversation why Dahl didn't like any of the movies that came out while he was alive. (And if you listen to the Charlie audiobooks, they're narrated by Eric Idle and are superb.)


>How do you feel about audiobooks in general. They actually
>were able to bring my son and daughter together on reading
>where before my son (younger) was starting to despise all the
>time his sister was spending reading. But he's still not
>quite about the reading on his own thing and I wonder if
>audiobooks could actually be stifling that.

I think they've been awesome for us and have spurred the kids toward creative reading choices instead of Warriors or Captain Underpants or Rainbow Fairies or whatever other crap.
One problem is that we've been listening to novels since they were in kindergarten (or before) so there's been a lag of sorts between the kinds of stories they were capable of understanding and the kinds of stories they are capable of reading on their own. We'd still read picture books or comics (still read a lot of comics, actually) together at bedtime, so they weren't being deprived of that stuff.
The other problem, of course, is that they don't get the musical education in the car that I got as a kid and would like them to get. We have other ways of working on that, though.

Other choices I forgot to mention:

-Shiloh (recent classic)
-Rascal (old classic I never read as a kid)
-The Incorrigible Children of Ashton Place (current series, also very good)

started with Ladybug, then Spider, now we're up to Cricket and the kids have loved each. They're mostly fiction & poetry but with some history and culture articles in each issue. In general a good way to introduce kids to a variety of authors and subjects they might be more interested in exploring on their own.

They publish companion history, arts & sciences magazines as well - we got Click until recently, now get ASK (general science) and Dig (archaeology & paleontology.) I was cracking up a while back when ASK published an article by Stephen Hawking.

http://www.cricketmedia.com/

The Color Purple...

The Bluest Eyes...

The Awakening...


of course,

1984.....

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

n/m

That Greek and Norse to be exact-- outside of that it was Encyclopedia Brown and choose your own adventure books.

Lots of myths, legends & folk tales from indigenous peoples around the world

outside of the European at that age. Of course you get some Egyptina in HS, but East and far east didn't come into play until damn near 18 lol.

i wish more were available/i had access to more cultures back then
now?
oh man
if shes into mythology go IN
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Them my kinda classics.

I only read very little of what was required.

But I would do every math problem in all the enrichment books and I would literally steal science books out the library so I could go home and do the experiments.

I didn't live reading until halfway through undergrad when I took humanities.

I broke down, repainted then reassembled my first bike at 9 years old.

At that age I was busy trying to make trip wire bomb and booby traps like I seen in mcguyver and air wolf.

I think I was about 10 when me and my cousin built our first cub house in my grandma backyard.
Shit was a legit shantytown structure
No measuring tape
No power tools
Just a hammer, nails and scrap wood
LoL

I had a stye on my left eye until very recently from a incident with a can of black spray paint stemming from that
LoL
I swore I was going to be blind

my daughter directs plays with her friends. designing and making all the costumes. my son made and sold pvc bow and arrows to his friends. they both flirt with robotics. and my daughter loves to read (son loves books but doesn't read as much because he's still young).

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

I only got the functional side of things.
If I wasn't building stuff I was playing sports or video games.


My dad owned a auto repair shop so I would sit around and watch him at the shop some times.

I want my kids reading Atlas Shrugged in high school.
I didn't get to The Fountainhead (then Atlas) until grad school

that there IS something new under the sun?

much of the value of the classics is in their means of conveying cultural norms and ideas. but they became classics in ages where the book was such a primary format. considering how there are many more new mediums for the dissemination of those ideas (the new thing under the sun) could the need for the literary presentation be diminished?

note: this is not saying that new mediums will be anywhere near as effective... just da'ing.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Which I don't believe to be true

if a critical mass of the population shifts out of the old medium it becomes a legacy. doesn't mean it lost it's value, but it's relevance has shifted.

(i don't believe any of this per se)

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

From 'should my child read the classics' to 'should my child consume the classics in whatever form is available'

But I thought the question here was more so about the content.

>From 'should my child read the classics' to 'should my child
>consume the classics in whatever form is available'
>
>But I thought the question here was more so about the
>content.

Well I think the first question which is where I was trying to start with is what is the value that comes out of reading the classics and is it still relevant to today's youth. If we can separate the value from the classics themselves then we can ask are the classics the best means for disseminating said value in modern media? If the classics can facilitate that in a way that's meaningful to the user in the new media then absolutely. But if there are better means which can be better valued and retained by the user in the media should we force the classics to facilitate the continuation of tradition.

I'm still searching for these themes (values) that we're getting out of the classics though to be able to answer that qustion. But I think of how so much other media bids for kids attention, and how much of it they are engaged with it makes me wonder if there aren't other ways to ensure they are getting those themes and values.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>I'm still searching for these themes (values) that we're
>getting out of the classics though to be able to answer that
>qustion. But I think of how so much other media bids for kids
>attention, and how much of it they are engaged with it makes
>me wonder if there aren't other ways to ensure they are
>getting those themes and values.


I mean there are numerous studies about the value of reading fiction, although not specifically classics. Also, I don't believe those are comparative studies which also looked at other media. However, I don't think it's a stretch to say that learning through reading offers a certain amount of creative, intellectual and emotional agency.

>I mean there are numerous studies about the value of reading
>fiction, although not specifically classics. Also, I don't
>believe those are comparative studies which also looked at
>other media. However, I don't think it's a stretch to say that
>learning through reading offers a certain amount of creative,
>intellectual and emotional agency.

Ultimately I think market value gets in the way of this. We're at a point where the technologies and media could really create some engaging experiences which touch on all of those things, but the market is lowest common denominator so we aren't really seeing that yet.

But by example there are Minecraft servers dedicated to the classics where kids can go in and engage with the characters, and explore the worlds at their level of engagement.

(I haven't actually done these with the kids because its more of a commitment to the medium than i'm willing to make with my kids, but it's happening)


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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>Ultimately I think market value gets in the way of this. We're
>at a point where the technologies and media could really
>create some engaging experiences which touch on all of those
>things, but the market is lowest common denominator so we
>aren't really seeing that yet.
>
>But by example there are Minecraft servers dedicated to the
>classics where kids can go in and engage with the characters,
>and explore the worlds at their level of engagement.
>
>(I haven't actually done these with the kids because its more
>of a commitment to the medium than i'm willing to make with my
>kids, but it's happening)
>
>

And I still believe that reading is a unique experience that cannot be replicated by other forms of technology. Once a person has been cultivated as a reader, I don't think that any new form that comes along will truly replace that thrill/rush. Of course there are distractions but it's not the same.

>And I still believe that reading is a unique experience that
>cannot be replicated by other forms of technology.

But you've got schools already foregoing books all together for iPad's. Jury may still be out on the difference of effect, but it's a change that is already happening to some degree.

>Once a
>person has been cultivated as a reader, I don't think that any
>new form that comes along will truly replace that thrill/rush.
>Of course there are distractions but it's not the same.

At the root though, literature is story telling made for a medium. Many of the stories existed before the printed page. Should we really regard the printed page as the pinnacle? Is it the cleverness of words or the meaning behind them which conveys the value?


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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

But the aspects that I like about it are connected to it being in the written form. But yes, you're right, it's how we came up. Although not all our peers/contemporaries feel the same way, so I don't think it's purely generational.

And is an e-book really so different to one on paper? Physically/aesthetically, perhaps, but the act of reading it remains the same. Just you and the words.

though

more people are reading now than every before, and not just because there are more people, but in terms of ratio(s) and access

but take shakespeare. the theatre was the medium for spreading his works across classes etc. plays are still great today but have nowhere near the critical mass to be considered far reaching.

or something like that.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

.

i mean it's pretty much established that shakespeare was writing for the medium and the audiences...

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

it was all always niche (and related to the tech of the time)

the reason their was such consensus about supposed classics was because the gatekeepers came from a very narrow group/part of the world (in locations and ideology) and thus embedded "THIS is culture" to the multitude (aka masses), when in reality if their were more options (sub/altern voices) the medium would serve it's niche group

i mean numbers would say movies are becoming out dated because no one goes to the movies anymore, when it's really tech has subverted the need to go to the movies and everyone has find their niche as it relates to film and film making

>the reason their was such consensus about supposed classics
>was because the gatekeepers came from a very narrow group/part
>of the world (in locations and ideology) and thus embedded
>"THIS is culture" to the multitude (aka masses), when in
>reality if their were more options (sub/altern voices) the
>medium would serve it's niche group

I'm surprised it's taken this long for this to come up, but I think that was a big part of my initial question. How do we shape the classics to be more a reflection of modern values?

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

if we are not down to change the system, we must change the system's code/info

they can be that change... that's what i'm trying to plan for.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

his biggest supporter was Queen Elizabeth.

also there is a theory that Shakespeare was just a puppet. that the real person writing the plays had to be a highly educated, multilingual and well travelled member of the court, because the stories where based on other known stories from other countries written in different languages. not stories a commoner would know.

regardless of the funding etc.... he (or whoever) wrote the plays knowing that the audiences would be of mixed classes and had to speak to them all. its what made the works so effective and ultimately timeless.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

all his plays were about the royal court...

and what made his stories timeless was because he was retelling old stories


>regardless of the funding etc.... he (or whoever) wrote the
>plays knowing that the audiences would be of mixed classes and
>had to speak to them all. its what made the works so
>effective and ultimately timeless.

the royal court were often the butt of jokes in shakespeare's work. when they weren't that they were evil, backstabbing, greedy etc. but the jokes about them is really what made him successful across classes.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

.

and i'm not even going to say that the bacon theory is wrong, it's just unprovable.

but you don't need to have the answer to that to realize that the very nature of the medium was to present plays to everyone not just those in the royal courts. the theatre's themselves were set up so that there were places where all the classes could watch. and thus for success they had to be written in a way which appealed across classes.

were there other nefarious forces at play behind the scenes who knows, but regardless the plays themselves had to be effective.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Yes, he made fun of the court in his plays. Did he do it to appeal to a mix of classes or did he do it because he was exposed to the almost 2000 year old tradition of Greek comedy?

I guess you would say the former.

What exactly is the bacon theory that you think is unproven?

I need to get back on my grind and read a few books.


.
.
.
"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

and i also think 10 is far too young for most classical / canonical works to be read or a huge concern.

shit for this day and age many before he age of 20

but yes I do think reading a variety of works is important

>and i also think 10 is far too young for most classical /
>canonical works to be read or a huge concern.
>
>shit for this day and age many before he age of 20
>
>but yes I do think reading a variety of works is important

Even if she doesn't become a writer, I think reading the classics would help her become a better citizen of the world. I don't know about you, but understanding important works of literature helps me understand visual art better, and it makes me listen to music differently, and it informs how I watch films. It fleshes out my grasp of history, politics, etc.

I dunno. I feel like literature changes the way that I look at just about everything, whereas most mediocre writing leaves me where I am.

as an aspiring writer, nothing has helped me more in my development (besides my mentors) then reading a whole lot of fiction (and different types as well)

it is on the page where you see all the craft, beauty, editor mistakes, structure flaws etc

and as some one who will be teaching college in a year or so knowing my shit is vital

target actually have them
in that $1 section in the front sometimes

at that age
i started reading all the young adult classics

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

http://blackpeopleonlocalnews.tumblr.com/

that was my series when i was in the 3rd/4th grade.

Had a relative discussion over here about Lovecroft

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=12458402&mesg_id=12458402&listing_type=search#12557071

Of course this is genre specific classic but still so highly regarded. I mean there are volumes and volumes of his works and peoples takes on his work. Can we not reevaluate his relevance in a modern context?

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20150119-the-21st-centurys-12-best-novels

12. Middlesex - Eugenides
11. White Teeth - Smith
10. Half A Yellow Sun - Adichie
9. Atonement - McEwan
8. Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk - Fountain
7. A Visit From the Goon Squad - Egan
6. The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay - Chabon
5. The Corrections - Frnazen
4. Gilead - Robinson
3. Wolf Hall - Mantel
2. The Known World - Jones
1. The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao - Junot

*I've read three (1, 7, and 11) and have #2 on the shelf unread. I'm interested in reading all the others except 3, 8, and 9

Earthsea series (le guin)

Wrinkle in Time
The Borrowers
Matilda
Alice in Wonderland
Pippi Longstocking
Potter Series
The Secret Garden
Animal Farm

A Christmas Carol around christmas
i read alot of Dickens

Narnia series
Enders Game
(i separate these two because of the agenda the authors have fortuntely it went over my head at that age)


for relating to modernity try Terry Prachett
Moving Picture might be a clear start
The Invention of Hugo Cabret
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

>Earthsea series (le guin)
>
>Wrinkle in Time
>The Borrowers
>Matilda
>Alice in Wonderland
>Pippi Longstocking
>Potter Series
>The Secret Garden
>Animal Farm
>
>A Christmas Carol around christmas
>i read alot of Dickens
>
>Narnia series
>Enders Game
>(i separate these two because of the agenda the authors have
>fortuntely it went over my head at that age)
>
>
>for relating to modernity try Terry Prachett
>Moving Picture might be a clear start
>The Invention of Hugo Cabret


Especially the Borrowers, Roald Dalh, and Dickens. Terry Pratchett was my shit! I even had the Discworld map (still got it somewhere). In fact, I might revisit that soon as I'm done with this essay.

A few more:
Gulliver's Travels
Arabian Nights
The Hobbit (I struggled with LOTR at that age)
The Wind in the Willows
To Kill A Mockingbird

And a couple of contemporary recommendations:

Anne Fine - Flour Babies
Malorie Blackman - Noughts & Crosses series (a kind of afrofuturist alternate reality for kids/teens) The series came out when i was already an adult but I read one of her earlier books as a kid & it really stuck with me. Probably one of the only black writers I remember reading at that age.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

blackrussian
i only started prachett in my twenties
man i missed out as a kid
and i want to revisit the earthsea series
then prachett
who i fear is failing health wise =(

omg arabian nights!!!!!!!
yes i dont think i ever finished that book it was huge
which is saying alot for me
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.