Here is a post for you to have the SPOILER-FILLED discussions, be they small or large spoilers, hints or full-blown explanations. You may have them freely in this post. Any references or hints at future events in the other post will be deleted. This is your safe haven. Please enjoy.

What about the heads that have read Storm of Swords but not Feast for Crows (or Dance of Dragons in my case)?

Anyone want to establish ground rules on that or is it all fair game?

Not reading DoD yet is still why I have yet to click on the book post.

It's kind of unreasonable to expect folks to limit the scope of their discussions within a single thread (we tried that once in the novel only thread).

Fully plan on taking down that book with all my downtime on the flights/hotel/train, etc.

Funny thing is I've started it and got about 200 pages in, but I find it too hard to focus when I'm reading it digitally.. I'm old school, I need that physical book in hand.

I think I'll just tread lightly around here...

did Oberyn mess with men in the novel or was it even alluded to?
I can't remember

>did Oberyn mess with men in the novel or was it even alluded
>to?

I had a feeling he was gonna ask that dude to stay lol

"His carnality... it was said he bedded men and women alike, with bastards across Dorne."

In the book, Tywin wants to marry Cersei to Oberyn, not Lora's. When He tells Jamie, Jamie says something to the effect of, "But he buggers anything with a heartbeat, including men."

Totally forgot this, damn.

Those Martells are some sex positive freaks

They do it this episode right? I thought they would at least wait till the third one.

The reaction is going to top the "Red Wedding"

Looks like the actual wedding might be next week maybe the end of the episode but episode 3 might be the reception/feast and that's when they'll do it.

several shots of it in the trailer.

http://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones#/game-of-thrones/episodes/4/32-the-lion-and-the-rose/video/preview.html

They are really moving quick then, I didn't expect it to be so soon.

i don't know, i think devoting an episode to the wedding and another to the feast would feel glacially slow from a narrative standpoint.

ain't nobody got time for that. they only have 10 eps.

a few months ago, i read a rough outline of the season provided by someone supposedly in the know. it said the purple wedding is set for episode 2, the trial by combat for 6 or 7, and the battle of castle black ep 9. those sound about right.

The battle of Castle Black was pretty epic in the books so that should be enough episode 9 material like Blackwater was in Season 2. I suppose then Tyrion killing Tywin might be in the same episode or maybe the season finale.

- ned stark @ the sept of baelor
- the battle of blackwater
- the red wedding

i'm guessing 10 will include tywin on the shitter, littlefinger @ the eyrie ("just cat" is my favorite line of the series), "salty" sailing into braavos, and possibly lady stoneheart.

nm

│♬ ♫ ♪ ♬ ♪ ♫ ♬│

Jon Snow being elected head of the Night's Watch. Then it hits all the right and necessary notes.

It looks like we get Bran and the Three-eyed Crow.
But will we get Arya in Braavos?
Or Lady Stoneheart?
I wonder...

'Cause otherwise he has nothing to do.

>But will we get Arya in Braavos?

Eh, I don't know. The Hound and Arya works, but I don't think they can stretch it out for the whole season. The obviously moved the saloon scene to a lot earlier in the series, and Martin didn't write that much about the two after that beyond the Hound's "death." I can see them having her getting passage to Braavos, arriving there, and showing up at the House of Black and White. I think they want to save her training for later.

>Or Lady Stoneheart?

This should be the last scene of the season. Her making her return with the Brotherhood hanging one of the Freys.

>It looks like we get Bran and the Three-eyed Crow.

I'm hoping for at least Coldhands

>But will we get Arya in Braavos?

Probably not just yet that might be season 5

>Or Lady Stoneheart?

They gotta introduce her. I always thought that a perfect ending to Season 3 would have been Catyln's body floating to a river bank where's she was found by the Brotherhood and Beric recognizes her and he just kneels out of grief and starts instinctively praying Thoro's prayer and all of sudden he collapses dead and the camera pans up and the final shot of the season would be Catyln's eyes opening -cut to black-

>>It looks like we get Bran and the Three-eyed Crow.
>
>I'm hoping for at least Coldhands

Pretty sure I read somewhere the Coldhands has been excised from the show. That may just be conjecture based on his absence during Sam's return to the Wall, but I'm not sure there's any reason to believe Coldhands is that integral to the story. His dialogue can probably just be given to Jojen Reed, or like... a tree spirit.

I think I heard that too. I hope not because he was a pretty cool minor character from the books and word around the campfire he is really Benjin Stark

I kinda doubt Coldhands is Benjen. He's apparently been dead for many years, and the most Benjen could be dead for (assuming that he is dead) is two or three years. I'd put money on the Night King.

Bringing Catelyn back that quickly (the very next episode) would have diluted the power of the Red Wedding. The audience needs to think they're good and dead and the Starks are defeated for a while before bringing her back.

>Bringing Catelyn back that quickly (the very next episode)
>would have diluted the power of the Red Wedding. The audience
>needs to think they're good and dead and the Starks are
>defeated for a while before bringing her back.

But with the cold open, I can understand why/how they're doing it this way. Series starts with Tywin looking smug as fuck, melting down Ice and tossing the "wolf" into the fire, satisfied that he's vanquished another great House. The Lannisters start off unquestionably ruling supreme over Westeros, and it all will fall apart by the end of the season. I can get with that.

In case someone wanders in...




















Joffrey death will come in?
Mid season or end season
They tend to do the end of season thing
But this would pace everything much slower no?
And are the really going to plan that damn wedding for the whole season?
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

From what I understand the wedding/feast takes up about half the next episode. Which means Joffrey dies at the end.

*herman cain smile*
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

I forget who it was that was teaching Jaime to use his left hand... I know it's not Bronn but for some reason I keep thinking it's Barristan Selmy (and I *know* that's not right).

Is it someone else from the Kingsguard?

Jamie seeks out someone who won't talk and tell everyone how bad he is with his left, so he picks Payne, who can't talk (no tongue).

I thought for a second that was the direction that they were going on the show, because Jamie says, "I need someone who won't talk," but of course they pick Bronn. It makes sense, as the actor who plays Payne was diagnosed with terminal pancreatic cancer last year, and has elected not spend the rest of the time with his family and doing "farewell" musical performances (he was in a few bands during the '80s).

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

I had the feeling it was an older knight associated with the king, but totally forgot ol' no-tongue

Bronn is a fantastic stand-in though

Nevermind, it's answered above

which takes the place of the hairnet...

But who does she hand the crystal off to or how does it get into the cup (or pie if you're in that camp)?

The way they show it on screen is that Sansa glides her hand over the top of the cup when she picks it up and hands it to Tyrion. But if things are consistent, then we know she didn't do it. QoT was sitting just off to Margaery's left... which is where Marg put the cup after she took it from Joff when the pie arrived. That seems the most likely time to me.

It's basically right in front of her. And everyone is distracted looking at the pie.

but lmao @ all us book readers telling everyone else the killer and motives are so obvious. granted, the show is a bit different, but most of us didn't figure it out until later in Storm of Swords, when Littlefinger breaks the whole plot down for us.

* keeping it spoiler-free, as always. at this point I don't think book readers should be commenting on the episodes any more; I know too much and may be subconsciously revealing something much later.

too afraid of revealing something even slightly.

i dig lurking in there from week to week, seeing what theories crop up. honestly surprised how many pegged olenna this early, but i think the framing of the tv series is completely different than how it takes place on the page.

It wasn't really obvious. But the attention he paid to the color of the gemstones, definitely made me think of the Strangler. I suspected Ser Dontos and Littlefinger, but not Lady Olenna.

That said. Except for praising the current episode, I'm done with the GD posts. I think some of us go too far in there. But everything isn't a spoiler.

still dont

i've reread the books oh 2/3 times

but i still need refreshers
i juggle too many series and books series to remember alladat


i also rewatched and was still like
how the fuck is this obvious??

i remember this not being one the the things that was ever like
BAM heres the answer
there were hints and clues
but it wasnt that important in and of itself

i remember the fallout being important frankly


but also i'm not going to ruin folks enjoying of playing Clue

i do see both sides
folks whine too much and are much too sensitive
but i do see where some posters are just too bursting at the damn seams on some horshach
I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

about Joffrey's fear of poon. did the books ever go this route or is that mostly from the show. In last week's episode Joffrey was especially irritable, even more than usual. he was sitting there kind of hating life when the band was playing...etc. maybe dude really was worried about having to show and prove on his wedding night.

i can't remember if the part where Tyrion gets Joffrey hoes is in the books, i don't think so but for the show it fits in with that theory.

but I don't believe that happened in the books.

In that interview on his death scene Martin explicitly points out that Joffrey is still just a 13-year old boy in the books. This is in reference to his bullying but I think it's safe to assume that 13-year old boys are just as naive (and nervous) about sex. I mean, it's not like there's sex ed or anything back then, and Joffrey *was* thrust into the kingship rather prematurely. Assuming a "normal" trajectory to the throne, then he would have had plenty of time to go through puberty without the exposure or responsibility of ruling the kingdom.

you can run a household at that age and obviously get married and become a king. girls are being married off and impregnated soon as they have their first period.

anyway it does seem like they played that up in the show i'm wondering what the point of it was. in the books, Rob is supposed to be the same age as Joffrey...same as Jon. neither of them reacted that way to women. Jon was nervous but regular style nervous.

.

mainly because of the two women he abused


i get more the sense that his curiosity was dangerous and morbid
not fear from him
but that you should be afraid if joffery ever got bored
and heaven forfend that kid got bored with sex and wanted it to be more "fun" and "interesting"

he was 13 year old homocidal maniac bully
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

he looked miserable though in the shot that panned around him while Sigur Ros was playing the castemere song. it was like a "heavy is the head..." scene for him...maybe i'm reading too much into it.

hes all i'm KING i get to do what i want


...wait folks still hate me?
still think i'm an asshole?

well fuck them
now m really going to ut the screws to them
because i can


i cant imagine that frustration as a teen
you get anything (almost) you want
except for respect
no one likes or respects your cretin ass


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Just stupid
Smh*

http://www.avclub.com/article/rape-thrones-203499

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

but since its' OKP, ill debate it anyway.

If its to showcase that despite him turning 'good' Jamie's...ie he's still the dude that murdered his cousin in cold blood just for a CHANCE to escape a temporary prison, then ill allow it.

If it's to "humanize" Cersei who's been on quite an evil run, then it's also problematic. One because it's a very cheap and lazy way to garner sympathy. Two, if the show wanted to remind you that the life of a woman was overall shit in those pseudo middle ages then again, a cheap and lazy way of sending that message (plus, we already had the near rape that the hound stopped in the first episode, along with them feeding the peasant girl to the dogs in the second one, lol).

As far as the article is concerned, I always thought the Drogo scene played better then it was in the book. What's worse, a grown ass man fucking a 14 year old virgin but she 'likes it' as played in the book or a relatively rough rapey scene to kind of show how fucked up the dynamic is. The later falling in love stuff though, lolz...although the "Drogo is dreamy" sentiment that seemed to be a popular internet meme makes me hard to call it. It's a matter of whats the worse evil, a 14 year old happily engaged in concentual non-consent with a man twice her age, or a very questionable rapey scene that the characters put behind them, lol.

Funny enough, I think the only consensual transaction free sex we've seen on the show has been gay sex. The gay mafia strikes again!


>Just stupid
>Smh*
>
>http://www.avclub.com/article/rape-thrones-203499
>
>~~~~
>When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so
>that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
>~~~~
>You cannot hate people for their own good.

>but since its' OKP, ill debate it anyway.
>
>If its to showcase that despite him turning 'good'
>Jamie's...ie he's still the dude that murdered his cousin in
>cold blood just for a CHANCE to escape a temporary prison,
>then ill allow it.

hes stil the dude that threw a kid out the window
he threatened loras at the wedding
we get it
it was stupid


>If it's to "humanize" Cersei who's been on quite an evil run,
>then it's also problematic. One because it's a very cheap and
>lazy way to garner sympathy. Two, if the show wanted to
>remind you that the life of a woman was overall shit in those
>pseudo middle ages then again, a cheap and lazy way of sending
>that message (plus, we already had the near rape that the
>hound stopped in the first episode, along with them feeding
>the peasant girl to the dogs in the second one, lol).



very lazy

>As far as the article is concerned, I always thought the Drogo
>scene played better then it was in the book. What's worse, a
>grown ass man fucking a 14 year old virgin but she 'likes it'
>as played in the book or a relatively rough rapey scene to
>kind of show how fucked up the dynamic is. The later falling
>in love stuff though, lolz...although the "Drogo is dreamy"
>sentiment that seemed to be a popular internet meme makes me
>hard to call it. It's a matter of whats the worse evil, a 14
>year old happily engaged in concentual non-consent with a man
>twice her age, or a very questionable rapey scene that the
>characters put behind them, lol.


it was there was no way to make that good


>Funny enough, I think the only consensual transaction free sex
>we've seen on the show has been gay sex. The gay mafia
>strikes again!

nah the dorne folks got consentual sex on lock

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

and he's a prince and she's a bastard so that dynamic is a little skewed. Loras and Renly are the only two semi-equals who boned willingly with nothing to gain but a good time.

they clearly still enjoy each other


note she could have easily raped that kid
the prince would have done jack shit

their culture is about consent
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

'least that's how i read it

If you're referring to Cersei again


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

>If you're referring to Cersei again

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't think they'd throw in such a notable revision without some sort of connection later.

they been fucking up

racially and with women


this is another not great

btw this is exactly what we are talking about
it is no longer "great" when you become consistent at these fuck ups

you no longer get to be listed as great
you are listed as
it was good in spite of obvious flaws
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

So in some respects I guess this is a very clear device to drive them apart and also letting the Audience know not to fall in love with Jaime just yet.

Strange, but I hope that its not for nothing because I feel like rape is just taken too lightly, and I hope that Cersei's rape was like a punishment for being a terrible person.

i'd say no...

it was outright rape, but they already have a fucked up relationshiop as it is, and who is to say it hadn't happened before and remained unmentioned in the books?? who's to say Cersei even feels "violated" in that day and age? ...in the books, after Jaimie came back and joff died, the twins were never quite the same...there's already a void between them i think this scene just more clearly shows why Jamie and Cersei aren't as thick as thieves in the upcoming future...i didn't like the scene but i got what they were going for in the end...

...it made me like Jaimie less on the show after he'd done some redeeming in the last season, but honestly, i only liked jaimie in the books when he was running around with Brienne..and no matter what happens to Cersei, i'll never really feel sorry for her...

..and let's be real, they ARE gonna greatly variate from the books at some point....Tyrion will go on trial and handle "dat bidness" before the end of this season....he'll be handling that other matter probably next season, and then what?? the next book probably won't be out by the end of NEXT season, so we will be seeing things change from what we know from the books...it was inevitable from the start

Forcibly taking some ass on the body of their dead son changes people. As a character you can not fuck with someone, like the thrill is gone that's cold blooded by Cersei but you deal. Jaime's upset the woman he loves and has loved literally all his life no longer wants him. The relationship is strained you're drifting and never to get back to that point before he was captured.

To rape that person creates a very different relationship, its not only no longer love, but she's now been forcibly taken by her brother/lover/truest companion. I get that they need to create separation between the two characters but having a damn rape scene is real heavy handed and what seems to be not at all in dudes character when it comes to Cersei.

I get that you have to deviate from the book and I have no problem with that, btu what i do have a problem with is to deviate in a way that I feel is unnecessary. Now granted the writers are generally to be trusted with how they interpret and reinterpret these characters, but I feel there is a better way to do that other than a rape scene. That's just me.

...and i don't know why they decided THAt change was neccesary, but i'm not mad something despicable happened between a character i hate, and one i only tolerate at times...

i'm never a fan of rape though. I have no love for Cersei though and want all the bad things in life to happen to her, her and only her.

It was more consensual and it was on an alter, not beside the body. But it was in the book.

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

In the book Cersei consented, but she didn't want it. In the show it was outright rape. But it's not like the show-runners just pulled the scene out of thin air.

you want to dither on what is or is not in the book

understand the main and major point of this is the rape
not the damn scene

its a big deal

it shows that this director and the show creators are ham handed and have no fucking idea what they are doing brushing against racial and now sexual and gender issues

and they need to go back to sticking to the book

because while george skirts the line
he understand the line he is skirting


these dudes havent the foggiest
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

What was the purpose of taking away Cersei's agency? Why the added brutality on Jaime's part?

Them disregarding Martin's nuance in the scene doesn't just change the scene, but reinterprets the characters. And to what end?

I want to see them pull a rabbit trick honestly
But looking at the directors flat out denial that that was a rape scene
Because she consented at some point...
Dude doesn't seem to get it
This for him is subtle
I have doubts again
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

@ the very least, it was questionable.

"There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. �No,� she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, �not here. The septons . . .�

�The Others can take the septons.� He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother�s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her."

Jaimie ain't right when it comes to Cersei...dude does horrible things like throw a kid off a tower of a castle "for her". He's been dying to wrap his hands around her since he got abducted and hasn't been able to since he came back...dude snapped. it's fucked up but it's who he is. he has no sense when it comes to her.

i don't get how you can see it as rape in the show but not in the book...it seemed the same in both to me. the line is still kinda blurred in my mind. it all really depends on how Cersei sees it I guess.

you and apparently the stupid ass director doesn't either



http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/04/21/game_of_thrones_rape_director_alex_graves_says_the_sex_becomes_consensual.html


which in case you are going to be all
he's right!

um no
it means he doesn't know what the fuck he's doing


which makes the tv show worse than the book

George is very very clear with what hes doing skirting these issues
he makes a clear effort
for these obvious reasons

this director hasnt a damn clue
and thats very very bad
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

At least when they were making out she was reaching for his face, etc...once they got to the ground that was pure Ben Roethlisberger.

Badly flubbed scene.

i mean she was totally fighting and refusing in the beginning but i think it was more so a struggle morally to continue their ridiculous relationship rather than Jamie being a creeper and wanting to rape his sister. He clearly was frustrated on how their relationship was going for a while but yeah i dont think it was really rape, especially when she started straddling him
____

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>At least when they were making out she was reaching for his
>face, etc...once they got to the ground that was pure Ben
>Roethlisberger.
>
>Badly flubbed scene.



You definitely did not convey what you thought you were conveying duke

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

they took what was a weak protest with a clear explanation

to what is clearly a rape scene
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Hurry,� she was whispering now, �quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.� Her hands helped guide him. �Yes,� Cersei said as he thrust, �my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you�re home now, you�re home now, you�re home.� She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei�s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

i think we need to see what comes of this in the show, really.

i'm still smh*



~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

only reason its being talked about is the blogs picked up on it

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140421053754/gameofthrones/images/1/15/Hizdahr-zo-Loraq-S4-EP-03.jpg

I think he's a good choice.

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

I wish Strong Belwas was there... that was his scene.

So I googled Hizdahr to see who was cast.

I don't think we'll ever get to see Belwas. Which is so unfortunate.

Scene.

So I think its safe to assume we're never getting him.

Which is sad because that was his badass scene.

Him decapitating dude, then taking a shit, then wiping his ass with the cape is one of the most gangsta scenes in all the books.

I can see why they left him out: they've got Selmy, Jorah, Grey Worm, and Daario. Belwas would have been extra. But man, I miss that dude.

i'm starting to get confused about what's what now...yeah that scene was awesome in the book...the character in general was

His character reminds me of wwf with the showmanship
Easy scene stealer


I mis him too and would have loved to have seen it
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

WTF?

the Tywin/Oberyn conversation was interesting

always thought Tywin would have been keeping tabs on Dany and the dragons

the uproar over the Jaime/cersei quasi-rape scene is ridiculous

its a show full of beheadings and torture

>always thought Tywin would have been keeping tabs on Dany and
>the dragons

Makes sense, guess Selmy will find out soon which will lead to his exile.

I was getting hype... then junky piano player volunteered.
_______________________________________
Dopamine/Serotonin/Norepinephrine Regulation 101

If they were going introduce him, it would have been at the beginning of last season with Selmy. But in a TV show where they're trying to keep the number of characters manageable, you can see why Benioff and Weiss would see him as be a fatter, more shit-talking version of Grey Worm, and leave him out of the plans. Sucks, but I understand.

It seems like the general consensus from the podcasts I listen to and some of the articles that I've read all from non book readers is that Little Finger was the one that plotted to killed Joffery with Olenna and Dontos as accomplices. Of course us book readers know that to be true but my struggle with it is that it didn't seem to be made all that clear in the show to me.

In the show Dontos gave Sansa the necklace but didn't tell her wear it at the wedding as in the book. Oleena was shown to be fiddling with the necklace but it wasn't clear that a stone was missing from it as it was with the hairnet in the book. Also Little Finger didn't outright say that he was the mastermind of the plot as he did in the book. He just broke the necklace to point out it was a fake and told Sansa she would be thought of as an accomplice but that wasn't a admission of his guilt just stating the obvious. Maybe I'm missing something but I watched it twice and I don't understand how the non book readers got there even if its true. It just bothers me for some reason.

What do y'all think?

The clues are there, some more overt than others.

Littlefinger may not have explicitly stated "it was all my doing!", but he did make clear that he purchased the necklace and gave it to Dontos, and further demonstrated how the jewels were breakable. You can also see at the moment, and in the wedding episode, there's a jewel missing, which helps connect the necklace to Joffrey's death.

Ultimately, after episode three, your options are:

A) Littlefinger planned everything in collusion with Ollenna Tyrell and their dim, drunken accomplice.

or

B) You don't trust anything you've seen and have no idea who poisoned Joffrey, as there's no evidence pointing to anyone else.

I'll have to watch it again, I did try to see if there was a jewel missing from the necklace after Oleena was fiddling with it. And this past episode before Little Finger broke it. It didn't appear that it had been in both cases but that could be just me. Either way I guess the show watchers in this case have caught on to the book readers.

Thinking back on the book and that Little Finger reveal that he was the mastermind behind Joffrery's death was a big WTF moment at least for me. Kinda like Little Finger saying "suprise motherfucker, it was me the whole time" I was like DAAAAAAMMMMNNN! Of course there's a later bigger reveal in the book and coming up in the show that he was the mastermind of the whole damn thing from way way back with John Ayran's killing so I'm sure that will be a WTF moment in the show, that is considering if folks will remember who John Aryan was and that it was his death that started this whole shit storm in the first place.

Joffrey wasn't cold before Dontos came up and said, let's go. He takes her to the river and Littlefinger is conveniently standing there with a boat. It was like he was waiting on her to arrive, so I can see how non-readers came to that conclusion.

Also, I think the Tyrells laced the cup when they gifted it to Joffrey making the necklace a non-issue in his death.

I've noticed it more this year than before, but as soon as someone talks about someone or references the event, the next scene will involve the person referenced.

Why didn't they include the part about Joffrey being the one who got someone to try and killed Bran while he was unconscious? The line, "I'm no stranger to Valerian steel!" could have been easily inserted in the scene in the second ep where Joff gets the sword, along with Tyrion's revelation. They seemed to be piling on reasons to hate Joffrey and wish him dead in that episode, so why not include his attempt to actually have one of the Stark kids killed? Seemed weird to me.

I thought that revelation came after his death in a Tyrion chapter. It's still early in the show though it may still come up as a sidebar.

Apparently, as you say, the reveal that it was definitely Joffrey who hired the assassin doesn't come until Tyrion is escaping and talking with Jaime in the dungeon. But now if they have that reveal happen, it'll just seem like a random "oh, by the way, your dead son was SUCH a douchebag he even hired an assassin to kill a cripple."

I suspect they'll just ignore it, because at this point Tyrion is the only one alive to whom that fact kinda matters and most viewers probably forgot that there was even a mystery about who hired the assassin.

...the book scene. He mentions the dagger, which freaks Joffrey out, and then explicitly asks Sansa (it's her POV chapter) about knowing what happened to Bran after he got pushed out of the window.

Jamie later also figures it out during another meeting with Cersei (their first since "the scene") after she mentions that Robert had said that it we have been better to put Bran out of his misery while in front of Joffrey and the other kids.

Don't know if they can pull off the later scene, especially after their "interpretation" of the tryst in the Sept (in the book, Cersei makes another pass at Jamie), but I guess it's possible.

For all intents and purposes in the show it really doesn't matter anymore who plotted Bran's assassination. It works in the books as a nice reveal but on the show no one's alive that would even care.

just to keep him down for a bit...ionno
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just to keep him down for a bit...ionno
____

TWITTER : Heinz21st

IG : H_N_Z

LOL Book readers on FB are going fucking nuts.

I'm not that bothered, but I understand.

How y'all feel?

its less people expecting things to go down a certain way....as long as its interesting thats all i care for....
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I think they're definitely trying to keep people interested in storylines that might flow well in the books but lag on screen.

Hope they do something with deanerys as well


Bran and daenerys in the books after awhile were disappointing
They got bogged down in their locations and little were done with the characters

I also hope it will distract from the endless Sansa I can give a fuck about
While that storyline finally became a bit interesting not enough for the time he spent on it


So I'm actually hopeful

What they did with Jamie though :/
Shit supposed to be all good after that rape
It's not

Interesting how the made Brienne and Podricks departure more open

I was still worried about magaerys becoming predatory lol

Wasn't happy they stabbed hodor
Also snow wolf was left to wander around too much as well
Hopefully the do something with the wolves
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

>
>What they did with Jamie though :/
>Shit supposed to be all good after that rape
>It's not

What exactly would you have hoped to have happen in this episode? Like, ignoring that the showrunners didn't realize they were filming a rape scene (which it unquestionably was), would you really expect Jaime to reflect on his having raped his sister? Or what?

I can understand people being upset that they severely messed up the portrayal of that scene (given their stated intentions), but even if it were intended as rape, it seems reasonable to expect that Jaime might delude himself into thinking it wasn't and go on living his life. Meanwhile Cersei, as seen in the episode, definitely looked like she was about to have Jaime be put on trial alongside Tyrion.

Not just the series that this happens and nothings done and dude genuinely thinks he's a good guy


Cersei was more about revenge lol for her son
That's not happening

But yes I'm like okay Jamie is still clueless because the creators are clueless
And overall this sends a bad message to viewers
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

The only thing that has me all wide eyed is showing the White Walkers changing that baby into one of them.

We readers have long speculated but it had never been revealed what they were doing with Craster's "offerings"

But it begs the question now... there are baby, toddler, and preschool Others???

Were about Bran and the Reeds at Craster's keep.

I didn't care, but some friends of mine were going nuts. The Bran storyline drags a bit in the books so it needed a little action injection, I thought.

The baby/toddler White Walkers has me curious too. I really wanted to see into their world some more, so I was really excited.

I welcome a Bran and Jon reunion. Wonder how is Locke going to die? I reckon Ghost rips his throat out.

So I guess that made sense.

I imagine the change, what with Jon going north to kill that mutineers, Bran & Hodor & Meera & Jojen getting captured, etc. is more of a function of giving characters things to do. I mean, Bran isn't even in Storm of Swords after he crosses the Wall. Jon has a lot to do in the book, but it's clear that they want to do one big battle, rather a battle drawn out over five episodes. Some of this stuff is a little weird, but I understand.

i forget.

She's not a POV character and she's almost exclusively referred to "off-screen", rather than being involved in dialogue and whatnot.

I've been fine with all the changes from the books so far - some have been great, others not so much, but none of them have revealed what may or may not lie ahead in the books. If they continue down this road, I might have to stop watching, I'd much rather have the book experience first

That I don't know what to think anymore. Book readers and Show only folk are on the equal footing with this one.

http://io9.com/this-accidental-game-of-thrones-spoiler-just-changed-1568796246?utm_campaign=socialflow_io9_facebook&utm_source=io9_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow



frankly i'm just glad they hurried up and got to it lol
























Okay. Remember that crazy spiky-horned head of the White Walkers that showed up at the end of "Oathkeeper" last night and blew our minds? Well, although the scene was something we haven't read in the books, we've read about the character before. HBO' Go's information titles named him the Night's King, who is a major figure in Game of Thrones lore. I'll let the ASOIAF Wiki explain him:

According to legend, the Night's King lived during the Age of Heroes, not long after the Wall was complete. He was a fearless warrior, who was named the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Later he fell in love with a woman "with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars", he chased her and loved her though "her skin was cold as ice", and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well. (Her description matches that of the Others.)

He brought her back to the Nightfort and after the unholy union, he declared himself king and her his queen, and ruled the Nightfort as his own castle for thirteen years. During the dark years of his reign, horrific atrocities were committed, of which tales are still told in the North. It was not until his own brother, the King in the North, and Joramun, the King-Beyond-the-Wall, joined forces that the Night's King was brought down and the Night's Watch freed. After his fall, when it was discovered that he had been sacrificing to the Others (possibly in similar way to Craster), all records of him were destroyed and his very name was forbidden. It is likely this led the lords of the North to forbid the Night's Watch to construct walls at their keeps, ensuring the keeps would always be accessible from the south.
In the books, Old Nan told Bran the story of the Night's King, and despite rumors to the contrary says he was a Stark, a brother to the King of Winterfell, and that his name was Bran as well.

If that was the Night's King last night, then the legend is true, and what we thought about the Others/White Walkers has changed dramatically. And if this legend is true, it potentially means a lot of the legends of the world of Westeros are true, which could have major implications down the line (I'd say that magical Wall-destroying Horn of Joramun is definitely real). The potential thematic elements alone � there's no way our Bran Stark doesn't have some serious business to do with his undead namesake � are mind-boggling.

Now, HBO Go calling the character the Night's King could have been an accident in that someone needed a name for the White Walker head honcho, and Night's King fit the bill, but it seems far more likely that the accident was that they revealed the true name of this major character. Either way, HBO quickly removed the name from Go.

Theorize away!

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Um... I'm having a hard time believing that's who they're saying... but if it is... Wow!!

...The Night King was Coldhands? He's certainly the most legit candidates; guys like Benjen and Royce haven't been dead long enough and Bryden Rivers is the Three Eyed Corw.

It would make sense if The Night King is "the big bad" at the end of this whole thing. And I guess Coldhands could be the Night King and the main villain in this whole affair.

Oh I'm super hyped!

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2014/04/spoilers-six-game-of-thrones-moments-to-look-forward-to/361139/

Spoilers: Six Game of Thrones Moments to Look Forward To
A book reader reminds other book readers of what�s (probably) to come
CHRISTOPHER ORR | APR 24 2014, 9:21 AM ET

You read the headline, right? The following are big-time book spoilers, and if you haven�t read the George R.R. Martin novels at least through A Storm of Swords, you should get out now. I kept the descriptions slightly vague to preserve the blissful ignorance of anyone who might have arrived here by accident. But seriously, if you haven�t read the books, beat it. And if you have read the books but don�t want to be reminded of what�s coming, well, you beat it too.

In my curtain-raiser a few weeks ago, I noted that while season four may not have a single moment quite as stunning as the Red Wedding or Ned Beheading, it should have more than its share of big scenes. I�m not including anything here from A Feast for Crows or A Dance with Dragons, though it�s certainly possible showrunners David Benioff and D. B. Weiss will bring in elements from those books. (Perhaps the scene with Daenerys and Drogon�s �sheep bones?�) Also, to be clear, I haven�t seen any episodes beyond last Sunday�s �Breaker of Chains,� so these are merely predictions�though, I think, relatively safe ones. In ascending order from intense to really, really intense:

6. Lady Stoneheart. An old friend returns, courtesy of Beric Dondarrion, and she has debts of her own to pay. If I were to guess�and that is, after all, what I�m doing here�I�d say that this might be the last scene of the season, in keeping both with its status as epilogue to the book and with the show�s fondness for concluding with supernatural reveals (dragons in season one, White Walkers in season two).

5. Ygritte and the Wildlings Storm Castle Black. The action sequence should be strong, but its conclusion stronger still. I love what Rose Leslie has done with Ygritte, and the life she�s breathed into the character will probably make this particular �You know nothing, Jon Snow� one of the most affecting moments of the entire series. I fear it may arrive this Sunday, in the episode titled �Oathkeeper.�

4. Sansa, Lysa, Littlefinger, and the Moon Door. We will presumably have a few episodes in which to build the tension of this unsavory quasi-romantic triangle before things come to a head at the Moon Door. I suspect this will happen in episode seven, �Mockingbird,� due to the title, but it may not take place until later. (In the book, it�s in the last chapter before the epilogue.)

3. The Assault on the Wall. Giants? Mammoths? We�ll see how far the effects budget stretches. But at least the Night�s Watch will get some welcome reinforcements, courtesy of a character who hasn�t had many opportunities to play the hero. Benioff and Weiss have said that they plan to make this clash even bigger than �Blackwater,� and they�re bringing back the director of that episode, Neil Marshall, to handle it. Like the earlier battle, this one will presumably take place in the ninth episode of the season, "The Watchers on the Wall."

2. The Mountain and the Viper. A couple of weeks ago, one commenter to the Game Of Thrones roundtable noted that if Roose Bolton�s vassal Locke is the Six-Fingered Man (and he clearly is), who�s Inigo Montoya? Another gave the obvious answer: Oberyn Martell. While his mantra to the Mountain is not quite �You killed my father, prepare to die,� it�s not far off, and the emotional drumbeat it will provide for their duel should make for a stunning (and ultimately, horrifying) scene. Watch for it in episode eight, �The Mountain and the Viper.�

1. Tyrion and Tywin in the Privy. What a sequence: Jaime tells Tyrion the truth about his first wife, Tysha; Tyrion lies and tells Jaime that, yes, he killed Joffrey; and then up, up, up into the Tower of the Hand for a brief visit with Shae (whose character has been screwed up, but who will presumably still reach her appointed destination) and finally Tywin. I for one can�t wait to hear Charles Dance intone, �Wherever whores go.� The only question is whether they�ll shoehorn this scene into the usual game-changer slot in penultimate episode nine (along with the battle for the Wall), or will save it for episode 10. My bet is on the latter.

That�s it for me. Feel free to share thoughts on these or other scenes you are eagerly anticipating (or anxiously dreading) in comments.

frankly i'm not looking forward to much any more


=(


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

I love it, but I dont want what happened last night happening again

The irony of tv watchers spoiling ASOIF will be heavy and everything they feel right now will be forgotten when the shoe is on the other foot but I just dont want the saga passed through the filter of show runners.

Damn you George. Pick up the fucking pace.

>but I just dont want the saga passed through the filter of show runners.
>
>Damn you George. Pick up the fucking pace.

but I'll keep watching and I'll welcome more reveals and other story changes. I don't have the patience to wait for the books to come out.

i think it will be difficult, but reading the books is such a great experience i don't want to mess it up.

dude takes way too long

thse season will be over
i'l have watched 15 other shows
read 12 other series

long forgotten the supposed spoilers
by the time the next book comes out


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Watch the show all the way through, finish the books whenever they come out, and then be mad I watched a great show after the fact for ruining a better version of the story?

No thanks

The book experience is far too good to have it spoiled. I can and will wait.

...i get it, but i seriously doubt that Martin will follow most if any, of the changes made for the show...i can deal with two versions of things just fine and don't really feel spoiled at all...

Just watch the damn show, lol. My guess is that it's gonna be a while before they really start putting some book 6/7 stuff on the show.

They reversed the spoiler on the book readers

Neither wants spoilers on any side
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Happen in the books. I know DB and Dave know the ending of the story, but i'd be surprised if they would take elements from a book that's not even out yet.

Or at least I hope not.

Either way I'm cool.

The show can't take two years of being the Dorne and Cersei show. While you are changing short term plot, it stays true to the characters and I can't see the side stories changing the major arcs.

Jon showing up and basically leading the Nightwatch in one felled swoop in the books is cool, but he always suffered being so far away from the action with his hands being too clean all things considered. Travelling to Casters and the pending assassination attempt is a nice sidetrack.

Biggest change I see happening is he runs into Bran. In Storm of Swords Martin fucked with you on how they JUST missed each other during that storm in the tower.

However, considering Martin pulled the "The Starks children ALMOST got reunited then fate fucked em!" more then a few times in the books I don't mind the change. I think Bran meeting with Jon even if its just a quick hug, would serve well to ground two characters that are in their own universes away from the action and gives the tv crowd a little bone considering it took like one episode 4 years ago before the split all the kids up.

^^^^^Seems like that�s a more fitting title to the series. The many misfortunes of the Stark kids seems to be the underlying theme of everything thus far. It seems very villains dick gets rock hard whenever he�s near a Stark kid and has a chance to do them some harm.

The shit started with Bran getting thrown out a window. Then Aria got put in a bad spot for justly whooping Goffrey�s ass, which lead to the death of Sansa�s wolf.

-Aria and Sansa were present for Neds beheading. Aria had to sit there and wait on Tywin hand and foot while he talked about killing her brother. Aria�s always been a badass, but the innocence behind her toughness is pretty much lost forever and while it�s great to see her as this tough-as-nails twelve year old who doesn�t hesitate to ice a scumbag, it�s awful that she�s even in that situation. I kind of hope they do away with the blinding angle for the show. No reason to pile on more despair for the show, right?

-Sansa got setup with Goffrey, who emotionally abused her with the death of her father and brother to the bitter end. Then she got wed off to a dwarf. Now she�s stuck with Little Finger, and who knows what he�s foul shit he�s got up his sleeve. Sansa�s aunt probably won�t give two shits about her and my guess is she views her as comp for Little Finger. Further, Sansa and Aria basically separated on bad terms.

-Jon basically spent his life being emotionally abused by Kathryn (or was it Katelin? I forget), went to the wall, and has had to deal with all manner of treachery ever since.

-Rob fucked himself and by extension, his entire family for an admittedly pretty piece of ass. Hell, we even watched one Stark child get stabbed to death before he/she was even born because he saw a pretty face and had too much honor to cut her loose while having too LITTLE honor to, well, honor his prior agreement with�. Whoever the fuck that guy was with the ugly ass daughters, and in doing so signed his own death warrant. Too many names to count at this point.

Even the Stark Ward, Theon, who by now certainly realizes and regrets his betrayal, has been abused in appalling ways. Talk about insult to injury. After being castrated and flayed, he�s gone from the ward of the great, honorable Ned Stark- essentially the best treated prisoner in the history of prisoners in real or fictional worlds, to the constantly abused bitch of a bastard from a B-grade house.

-Where the fuck is the other Stark kid, for that matter? The youngest one with the wildling? Anyhow, Bran is in a bad way and given who he�s been captured by and the history of the show, it wouldn�t shock me if he�s been raped a few times by Karl and his men before Jon shows up and they still don�t get to see each other.

I love stories that are dark and bleak and unrelenting, but holy shit� this show is on a few other levels with that. Throw us a bone and let Jon ride to Bran�s rescue, let Ghost and Bran�s wolf get free to eat Locke and Karl�s face off , and let�s get some fucking palpable hope for the Stark kids for once.

>I love stories that are dark and bleak and unrelenting, but
>holy shit� this show is on a few other levels with that. Throw
>us a bone and let Jon ride to Bran�s rescue, let Ghost and
>Bran�s wolf get free to eat Locke and Karl�s face off , and
>let�s get some fucking palpable hope for the Stark kids for
>once.

They don't have to get a happily ever after, but even hospice residents have a good day here and there

one of the cool things about the books is that while it may seem like the Stark kids will run into each other in the books, they never do.... i don't know HOW they're gonna set it up so that they don't run into each other, but i bet they'll just miss each other again...

people often forget that the Starks basically represent the last truly honorable family in a world with growing treachery everyday...the Starks are supposed to be transfomed through all that....end of the books, it'll probably be Arya, Bran, Rickon and Sansa still alive....although, i wouldn't be suprised if they killed off Arya and Bran, Rickon was never heard from again, and Sansa somehow ended up the last Stark standing

...oh, and i STILL don't think jon is dead at all, or even hurt....but i don't see him surving to the end...

>i STILL don't think they'll run into each other

- they aren't going to let them meet up (just yet) Non book readers need to go through our pain.

Things I think might happen

* Ghost (Jon controlling him) ends up saving Bran from getting shanked by Bolton's guy that is coming up with Jon's party from Castle Black

* They save the Mormont is the snitch reveal till near the end of the season (they are going to Milhouse him some more)

As long as they don't make stupid choices like that rape scene

Don't be needlessly blood thirsty about it
At the same time sexist racist any other kind of unnecessary ist
The books have quite enough of it
And its well thought out

Gimme Arya
Move bran and daenerys along I'm fine with it
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

It made so much more sense to me. Even though Lysa is crazy as cat balls, but that scene where she was questioning Sansa and Sansa finally realized she's just gone from one cell to another.

- My dude Little finger may be the single most Dangerous Man in Westros. That's what 2 kings he's now gotten rid of, and we know what happens to his new bride and that Moon Door. He is seriously scary.

- I wonder how sickly they'll make the little boy.

- Once again we know the Stark kids will be close but we knew that they wouldn't meet.

- Good to see a sword through the back of the head, that's always a great way to end a scene.

- They're showing parts of Cersei we don't see in the books, and i'm not sure if its Lena Heady or the writing, but either way I love it.

- Pod is the greatest

>It made so much more sense to me. Even though Lysa is crazy
>as cat balls, but that scene where she was questioning Sansa
>and Sansa finally realized she's just gone from one cell to
>another.

They still fucking with Sansa she was looking like what the hell have I gotten into now at that scene.


>- My dude Little finger may be the single most Dangerous Man
>in Westros. That's what 2 kings he's now gotten rid of, and we
>know what happens to his new bride and that Moon Door. He is
>seriously scary.

Little Finger Da GOD mastermind of the whole shit. I just wished it would have stuck a little bit closer to the page.

>- I wonder how sickly they'll make the little boy.

He ain't look all that sickly to me, glad they kept the same actor though.

>- Pod is the greatest

I'm gonna have thug tears if/when Pod get's hung.

>They still fucking with Sansa she was looking like what the
>hell have I gotten into now at that scene.
>
Sansa is the pawn. She's just now starting to realize this, but she's the pawn. She's the single most helpless person in any situation in the show. She controls nothing, and doesn't have enough wit or allies to truly help her own situation. Its the place she's allowed herself to be in.

>Little Finger Da GOD mastermind of the whole shit. I just
>wished it would have stuck a little bit closer to the page.
>
I think this way Little Finger is scarier, and it would make more sense for Lysa to know the girl is Sansa instead of some bastard child little finger had. Plus the confession was SOO ill, she told everyone that he literally set shit in motion. Dude is super scary.

>I'm gonna have thug tears if/when Pod get's hung.
>
Fam, I know its coming, but hoping for a big deviation

>Sansa is the pawn. She's just now starting to realize this,
>but she's the pawn. She's the single most helpless person in
>any situation in the show. She controls nothing, and doesn't
>have enough wit or allies to truly help her own situation. Its
>the place she's allowed herself to be in.


technically the most helpless person is Bran though
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Plus money got Milk eyed powers that we just saw how crucial they can be.

helplessly to his brother


he still helpless for the most part until he locks down those powers

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

I just don't think he and Sansa are in the same boat, at this point the only thing Sansa has going for herself is her virginity.

Sansa just whines and looks like a scared mouse.

vs the tv show


its at least hinted at in the books that they all are capable of this

Arya's dreams about her wolf still

Jon still sees what ghost saw as well

welp Sansa...ugh that girl i just dont like her
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

just not at the level of Bran.
Unfortunately for Sansa, Lady was killed pretty early. So we don't know if she could warg.
And since Rob and Rickon aren't POV characters... we can't know about them.

and that's maybe why Sansa can't do it.

I like that the Vail is being brought back into the show, I kind of liked those Sansa chapters at at the last part of Book 3 and crazy as Lysa is funny. I also liked that little sly look that Lysa gave to Petyr when Sansa spoke about the "Lanisters" killing Jon Aryn. However I do have a nitpick about a change from the book to the show. I don't like how they quickly revealed that it was Lysa on command by Little Finger to poison Jon Aryn and write the letter to Catelyn thereby starting this whole shitstorm into motion. It just seemed almost like a throwaway line, even more so by making it apart of a comedic plea by Lysa to get married at that very moment and having the High Septon right behind the door. In the books it seemed like much more an emotional reveal and a big what the fuck moment at least for me.

How did y'all feel about it.

I guess we'll be seeing Marillion soon though.

I'm also curious about the slight change made to Cersei and Margaery's relationship. When she went up there and pretty much made nice with her I expected Cersei to be pissed. Of course this could all be some kind of subterfuge and it will still play out the same way though.

I was still holding out hope for Coldhands I guess that part has fully gone to Jojen Reed after all.

I also wonder how Jorah is going to be found out to be a intial traitor to Dany. Maybe Varys somehow gets a message to Ser Barriston.

All and all it was a good episode.

Oh yea one more thing, technically didn't Jon Snow just light the biggest fire the north has ever seen? I wonder if burning Crastor's Keep was the plan. OK Mance had no way of knowing about... but Mance did have a Warg so it wouldn't be much of a leap to think that he had a Seer too. It might not come out like that but I think it's a interesting speculation.

>I like that the Vail is being brought back into the show, I
>kind of liked those Sansa chapters at at the last part of Book
>3 and crazy as Lysa is funny. I also liked that little sly
>look that Lysa gave to Petyr when Sansa spoke about the
>"Lanisters" killing Jon Aryn. However I do have a nitpick
>about a change from the book to the show. I don't like how
>they quickly revealed that it was Lysa on command by Little
>Finger to poison Jon Aryn and write the letter to Catelyn
>thereby starting this whole shitstorm into motion. It just
>seemed almost like a throwaway line, even more so by making it
>apart of a comedic plea by Lysa to get married at that very
>moment and having the High Septon right behind the door. In
>the books it seemed like much more an emotional reveal and a
>big what the fuck moment at least for me.
>
>How did y'all feel about it.



i wasnt looking forward to this
i really cant stand sansa nor petyr nor lysa

and yes Lysa felt like a throwaway
i'm like thats huge!
but it went by so quick

i do wonder if they will be doing the breastfeeding scene

but yeah this was the beginning of me losing interest in the series
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

When they tried to kill Tyrion.

Yikes.

I know it was a prosthetic breast but knowing little buddy was almost preteen makes it kind of creepier LOL!

kid is probably like
do we have to?
the actress as well
like trust i can still be creepy i SWEAR i can still be creepy

threatening the poor woman with a breastfeeding scene
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

I knew he was older, but DAMN!

shes really good



~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

If DB and Dan came to me i'd be like naw, he can be nuzzled but not boobage in mouth.

That shit gotta be kind of scarring though right?

http://daclips.in/lci95tfs4uc6

nobody's trying to translate that into "media"?

They could have introduced him last night too. He could have been the one to kill Rast

i stay waiting for benjen too
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Maybe it's too soon in the TV show to reveal him since we know next to nothing about him still in the books and they don't want to catch up that quickly. One can hope

Check out my music. Hit me up if you want to collaborate: http://www.myspace.com/noahhoffman

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Just stumbled across this, but this is a great weekly column that fills in the blanks on the most recent episode:

http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/ask-the-maester-littlefinger-lannister-gold-and-aryas-hit-list/

It's a column geared for show watchers so it generally avoids future spoilers, but the writer looks to be pretty liberal in what he considers a "spoiler." I'm posting it here even though most of you already probably know this stuff, but I'm finding that even as a book reader there are some nice refreshers in here.

where I'm in the midst of reading Book 5 (around 350 pages in) but I'm seeing some of those storylines come to play on the screen. For example, I already finished the chapter where Reek convinced the motley crew of Ironborn to give up Moat Cailin but I haven't reached the point where Yara (Asha) attempted to free Theon (not even sure that happens in the book, but please don't tell me either).

It's becoming increasingly clear though just how far Benioff and Weiss have this thing mapped out for multiple seasons to come. They shotgunned arcs involving Reek and Arstan Whitebeard and Bran (among others), presumably to fit in future side arcs like Myrcella in Dorne, Yara (Asha) and the Kingsmoot, etc... while also giving scenes like Tyrion's trial the proper weight they deserve. With Reek in particular, I know some readers have lamented the fact that HBO gave so much time to his torture scenes last season (in lieu of other scenes) when those weren't detailed in the books.

Now, while I've tended to stay away from the book threads because I'm lagging on DoD, I have been aware that a number of book readers (not necessarily here, but in general) have been unhappy with these departures from the books. Considering just how stunning Tyrion's trial played out last night, would it be fair to give the showrunners a reprieve because it's becoming readily apparent they do have the long run in mind? Like half the episode was dedicated to his trial (and obviously a large chunk of next week) but I can't imagine cutting any of those scenes short either.

I'm aware I may be overstating the actual outcry from book readers, but considering I'm entering the discussion late, I'm curious to see what yall think.

I know its different for all people, but for me the show and the books are different and I tend to view them as such.

I've heard that complaint about Theon/Reek primarily on The Cast of Kings podcast. My take on that issue is that on the page it works that you don't hear from Theon for a while and its reveal that he was actually this tortured character Reek. Its like a oh shit moment in the book because you have been witness to this character's pain and the reveal adds the extra emotional layer.

In the show I think it was important to show the mental and physical breakdown of Theon though. The only option would have been to not have any of the Reek scenes up until last night's episodes because they can't disguise Alfie Allen. Same as with Barriston Selmy. And it would have been a leap too far for there to not be any scenes with Theon at all in Season Three either.

Some of the departures don't bother me that much. And I'll try not to spoil because I don't know where you are in the book but suffice to say that scene with the dragon and the follow up with the goat herder was kind of underwhelming.

Most book readers do get kind of possessive or up in arms when the show take liberties but I think it's all about the economy of storytelling. Those books are long and dense they can't exactly fit everything on the screen but this is the most faithful adaptation that I've seen. That court scene last night was freaking fantastic.

OK so we got that amazing scene last night of Shae testifying against Tyrion. Man that scene broke my heart, Peter Dinklage's acting was amazing. Sibel Kekilli was kind of rough in the acting but the words themselves and Tyrions reaction sold it.

However, what I'm wondering is if when he kills her (if the show is going there) will that still have some of the show watchers rooting for Tyrion. Of course in the books Shae is portrayed a bit differently. Her motivations on the page were about that dollar but on the show they portrayed it as a mutual love affair and her reasons for betraying him was more about her being scorned because he called her a just a whore to him. Him killing her in the book made the act seem more justifiable because it was a real betrayal but I've heard another book reader on a podcast said that him killing her in this context of her being a scorned women will make Tyrion who's been a favorite and sort of a hero type seem more like a villain and evil character.

My thing is a betrayal is a betrayal regardless of why she betrayed him because he only tried to save her, she wasn't listening when he was trying to tell her nicely so he had to hit her with that hard truth. Either way she still gotta go.

What y'all think?

I don't think people will feel that bad for her.

up on the stand, ain't no one going to shed no tears for her.

She never truly understood the position that she and/or Tyrion were in when he brought her to King's Landing. So now she's all scorned and shit. Up on the stand giving away all the recipes.

Fuck that, gut her ass too.

he catches her in tywin's bed.

.

"I, I, I, I, Iiiii got the knife ...."

In the entire series?

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Not for me...
Janos Slynt... that shit was satisfying+gangsta with the return to roots.

That better play out exactly as it does in the books. I need it to.

lysa since she started this whole mess
edged it out for me



~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

I especially loved the Tyrion scenes and the Sansa scene.

I'm guessing they switched the scene with Biter & Rourge with The Hound and Arya for storytelling economy and plus why give Brienne a ugly scar. It's not going to do anything for the story so just save the makeup.

I can't wait for the battle at the wall they are sure building it up as a big threat. And the fight with The Mountain and the The Viper is going to be epic.

Straight up and down, its going to be great.

The mountain is GIGANTIC, and Oberyn is going to give him everything he wants until he gets too cocky.

This is where i wish they'd just let Oberyn live, but too much depends on his death so it has to happen.

DAMN

>This is where i wish they'd just let Oberyn live, but too much
>depends on his death so it has to happen.





~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

to give him
>everything he wants until he gets too cocky.
>
>This is where i wish they'd just let Oberyn live, but too much
>depends on his death so it has to happen.
>
>DAMN

i re-read the book scene like 3 times. just to make sure what happened happened. lol

Then "the crunch" I was like NOOOO

man that was some great writing

imagine the trajectory the story would have taken if Oberyn had come out on top.

I mean everything, although it might not have.

Tyrion might've still done what he did and just said fuck it, ya'll got to go!!

-you think things are finally going good for the starks, something good is going to happen, then...

-oberyn winning the fight the whole time and talking shit while doing so, and then...


this books rip your heart out lol.

I literally just finished the book less than ten minutes ago

I was rooting harder for book Jon more than show Jon

Dude was supposed to lead first charge against the White Walkers, wtf


Stark kids get no kinda break

I don't know about that...that passage was very vague. I don't think Jon is dead, but we'll see.

like Martin gave us the rope a dope with Brienne and Catelyn and (maybe) Gregor Clegane, but Jon's "death" sounds rather final...

"When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold..."

Sigh.


But, if I can put on my fantasy booking hat, I'm guessing the resultant chaos at Castle Black will lead to the wildlings smashing the Night's Watch, then getting the hell outta dodge.... leaving the Wall wide open for a surprise invasion from The Others.

>
>
>Stark kids get no kinda break
>
>



~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

>
>
>Stark kids get no kinda break
>
>
>
>

Now that I'm caught up and reading all the crazy fan theories online...


Hmm. Some interesting-ass theories out there... making me rethink things

>-you think things are finally going good for the starks,
>something good is going to happen, then...

there was at least foreshadowing that something bad was about to happen. so even though it was still a shock i knew something was going down.

this was more in the moment like yea Oberyn killed this muthafuckin Mountain!! then NOPE!! smh

Walder offered them food, they good fam. Then them rains started

I had to reread that jount like 3 times to ensure I got everything.

I was blown.

And now we got to wait two weeks? a;sdfja;dfja

However, I LOVED how they brought back The Hound's story about his brother full circle. IIRC, that was one of the earliest book reader gripes about the show; how he didn't tell Sansa (it *was* Sansa, right? Either at the tourney from Loras or the "little bird" scene) about his history with The Mountain.

Cutting and pasting that dialogue from Sansa to Arya (at the point when The Mountain becomes a critical character) was a stroke of genius. Considering it came this much later than in the books shows impressive restraint.

Or, I could be completely misremembering the books and everything I just said is moot. If so, then carry on and ignore me, hah

After the next episode, we'll be losing Oberyn, which is sure to piss off a lot of people. After that:
* The Hound & Arya will be separated
* Tywin dead
* Tyrion will be in Essos with a bunch of uninteresting people
* Daenerys will be in Meereen for a LONG time

I can see the show losing a lot of viewers. Hopefully they'll figure out a way to make it more interesting than what's depicted in books 4 & 5.

i think it makes sense that they've started re-ordering the plots and showing things that happen later in the books during this season and so on. it will help keep things interesting for the show.

>After the next episode, we'll be losing Oberyn, which is sure
>to piss off a lot of people. After that:

Oberyn is a great character mainly because the actor is so charismatic his lost will be surely missed but...

>* The Hound & Arya will be separated

But we well probably get to see her being a lone bad ass in Bravos killing and shit.

>* Tywin dead

Depending on how you feel about Cerscei her story gets more interesting after the death of Tywin.

>* Tyrion will be in Essos with a bunch of uninteresting
>people

We will get another Tyrion road show, possibly the return of another Targaryn and the the Jorah Mormont storyline. Which may be interesting to play those characters off each other.

>* Daenerys will be in Meereen for a LONG time
>

The return of the Dothraki...

>I can see the show losing a lot of viewers. Hopefully they'll
>figure out a way to make it more interesting than what's
>depicted in books 4 & 5.

Plus Lady Stoneheart I hope they do a lot more with her and the brotherhood.

After killing off Rorge and Biter, she's not going to be chasing the fake Hound around the Saltpans. She can go to the monastery, and she can eventually run afoul of Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood, but they will likely have to create other things for her to occupy her time besides wandering with Pod.

Cut out all the Hound stuff (which I honestly don't even remember, lol), cut out the stuff with the cave and monastery, and have her chase Sansa a couple more episodes, until she comes across The Brotherhood. Then for the very last scene of the season reveal Lady Stoneheart to condemn Brienne to death. Fin.

Since Brienne's fate is uncertain for most of Book 5 anyways, it would be a great way to "write off" Brienne for next season (or however long it would take for them to reunite her with Jaime).

I forget though... was there anything critical that happened at the cave and/or monastery? I vaguely recall there were some reveals about other characters, but nothing crucial about Brienne herself.

Last scene

I'm prepping to bounce
W moments for Jon
Until he bounces

I'm here for the Arya moments her assassin training
That's about it
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

http://winteriscoming.net/2014/05/23/characters-confirmed-game-thrones-season-5-new-details/

When you look at the arc, there is still tons to do.

Notice how the Wall situation is moving slowly so, eventually, they have to introduce Mance Ryder and his armies, including the minor Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun arc.

They have barely scratched the surface with Coldhands.

As other's have mentioned...Arya is soon about to become a favorite.

I think they have enough to pull from to keep it moving.

them speeding up Sansa and Bran's storyline's i feel will leave them with little to do next season. Daenerys also doesn't move much next year so i feel there will be filler. i can almost see them slowing down Arya's story and show the training in latter parts of next season.

I'd like to see the adventures of Tyrion in Essos, I think theres a lot to mine out of Dorne and the Cersci's story. Plus Bran will provide more connection with the White Walker storyline possibly. It might be a more world building season but it should be good. I have faith in the writing staff. And GRRM needs to finish typing that damn book on that old as DOS computer.

This episode was the first time he's appeared on screen since the second season. It's the first time since the first season since they've shown him do anything brutal. The guy they've cast this season is perfect, but the book established him is this completely evil force of nature. All we've really seen him do on the show is kill horse and eviscerate three people, and the latter occurred in this episode.

This episode also showed why the Hound's origin comes off better when he explains it, rather than Littlefinger telling it to Sansa. I also thought that was one of the show's poorer choices.

not Loras, what was I thinking.

Of course on the page it can go deeper into his mythology and origins but he's not a POV character and the stories around him all come from other characters. The only misstep was the recasting to the tall thin looking Mountain in Season 2 but all we really need to know about him is that he's big, mean, and violent.

____

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IG : H_N_Z

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

For such a visceral scene, the potential on-screen (versus the book) is so much higher.

A minor quibble though... IIRC, the Mountain was beat up not just from the fight but from the poison in his cuts. It will undoubtedly come up next episode, but I was expecting the Mountain to be even more debilitated before The End. The way the show portrayed it, Oberyn got beat because he was complacent and his leg got swept. Emphasizing the poison would have put him in an even more dominant position for an even more shocking defeat.

From the early reactions it sounds like the intended reaction was still there, but emphasizing the poison (especially with the Hound's comments earlier in the episode) would have brought added weight to The Red Viper's demise.

Edit: Also, Full Heel Turn Sansa... damn. Dyed hair and everything. What an intriguing shift from the books. I get the need to shorten the storyline, but it's interesting seeing how quickly Sansa becomes Baelish's "partner in crime". Also, I wonder if this is portent of things to come in future books...

The Mountain just needed to get more fucked up for it to work a little better. A few more fatal blows and a more defeated looking Mountain rising up to crush his skull. when he did that he almost looked like he'd been playing dead the whole time (despite getting a spear to the chest).

It did work fine but that was my minor complaint...great episode nonetheless though. great reaction shots from all the other characters during the fight too.

It was definitely an unexpected heel turn and a bit of a departure and maybe a overshadowing of things to come from her storyline. I actually liked Sansa as a character in the book and I wasn't too bothered with her in the show. She slowly came to realize her position and power within the game and she sees the writing on the wall and by aligning herself to Petyr will put her in a powerful position. I especially liked how Sansa put Petyr in his place like I know you want this.

For all intents and purposes in her mind, her entire family is dead and she is the only survivor and she wants to live so she's finally taking that ownership over her life and is getting something out of it. The question will be will she actually bump into Arya, I doubt it but the thought did occur to me what if in the next episode they do reunite but they reject one another and a fight breaks out between The Hound and a Knight of the Vale and that's when he gets his fatal wound.

>For such a visceral scene, the potential on-screen (versus
>the book) is so much higher.
>
>A minor quibble though... IIRC, the Mountain was beat up not
>just from the fight but from the poison in his cuts. It will
>undoubtedly come up next episode, but I was expecting the
>Mountain to be even more debilitated before The End. The way
>the show portrayed it, Oberyn got beat because he was
>complacent and his leg got swept. Emphasizing the poison
>would have put him in an even more dominant position for an
>even more shocking defeat.

but Pedros handling of that character from start to finish was masterful
you did need to understand why he was being that stupid
cause it was a classic stupid move
always make sure the dead guy is really dead
even then walk away from the body
nope?
ok you are passionate and over wrought
we get it
lol

masterful though Pedro masterful

>From the early reactions it sounds like the intended reaction
>was still there, but emphasizing the poison (especially with
>the Hound's comments earlier in the episode) would have
>brought added weight to The Red Viper's demise.

yep they want folks good and mad so the next one we can go
GOOD
die slow

>Edit: Also, Full Heel Turn Sansa... damn. Dyed hair and
>everything. What an intriguing shift from the books. I get
>the need to shorten the storyline, but it's interesting seeing
>how quickly Sansa becomes Baelish's "partner in crime". Also,
>I wonder if this is portent of things to come in future
>books...

i appreciate it
i REALLY appreciate it
cause i can't stand that character
get some damn backbone
die on your feet girl!
if she were a successful coward sure
but girl you arent a successful coward
be an unsuccessful hero like your dad then
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

And I'm not easily put off by gruesome images but I guess it was all about how the sound design combined with the gore that made it even more brutal.

rewound
the played it


i'm not good with suspense
i wanted it over with
lol
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Guess it doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things.

EDIT: Nope, I was wrong, but she does have a few brothers in the Unsullied.

We saw Oberyn's squire or whoever wiping his blade with something, so I'm guessing that's when the poison was applied. As for the combat, YUUUGHH, made me wanna wear protective goggles all the time now. All that screaming makes it so much harder to watch than it is to read through, but I thought Mountain was gonna punch his brains out, not squish it out, oh well, still made an impact to say the least....

I don't recall that impression in the books, but part of that could be cuz my memory on these things is shit.

But yeah, props to Andy Greenwald for implying that relationship in his Grantland write up... pretty sharp for a non book reader.

- Dany was less torn up by the betrayl or at least that's how it looked. In the book I felt like half her world had just shattered. I do love how Jorah knew even if he was salty there was no way he could beat Barristan in a fight so he just had to do what he was told.

- I felt like in the book the shock of the situation came because of the brutality and what it meant to Tyrion, but because of how great the character was in the show you feel more for Oberyn. I loved the way it played out and you can see Oberyn's dude rubbing the blade with poison in the beginning right before he handed him the staff.

- Those faces, man those faces.

- Ygritte was a killing fools, and you could almost hear her saying "where is Jon Snow!!!" There was some real venom in those killings.

- Showing a man Flayed was FUCKED UP. Like I know its their Sigil and everything, but homie that was crazy, the bugs flying in and moving inside the body.

- Alfie Allen doing some good work this season.

- Sansa laid it down. My wife and I both said "welcome to the game" good ass scene.

- Watching Arya laugh like that was almost scary. She's spent so much of the show scowling or being upset that to see a real genuine smile was ill.

Originally i thought Tyrion was gonna get his but i kinda feel they will wait until next season. I kinda feel they will speed up Jon Snow getting the lord commander so they can speed up Samwell's journey the beginning of next season. I probably see the hound getting put down in the finale as well. other than that i can't think of much else, they will advance Bronn some but i honestly can't remember where he goes next. Think Sansa is pretty much done for the season as well. Obviously next week will be almost entirely the wall so we will see Stannis ride in to save the day so they will advance that a bit.

Theon/Reek, Sansa, and Daenerys storylines are pretty much done.

Episode 10 will be Arya leaving the Hound and headed on a ship to Bravos, Tyrion vs. Tywin and all the other Kings Landing Drama. We may see Daenerys again and some of Stannis at the Wall, and the last segment will be Brienne and Pod being brought to or about to be hung by Lady Stoneheart.

arya killing the hound early in the episode and end with her boarding the ship and Bolten riding towards winterfell with fake Arya.

in this past episode, that was the new home he told Reek they were going too. The new Arya is going to be Miranda. We may see a bit more before the end of the season but that storyline is pretty much done.

on the Freys first, especially since the Red Wedding has been so central to the show (and books). The Freys have been completely off-screen this season, so they need to show Lady Stoneheart getting her immediate revenge against them first.

If ever you want to re-read the series (or know someone reading it for the first time), here's the list to read the chapters of Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons in legit chronological order.

I'm definitely doing this in about ten years when A Dream of Spring gets released.

List and non-spoilery explanation for first time readers:

http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-reader-friendly-combined-reading-order-for-a

List and explanation for re-readers:

http://boiledleather.com/post/24543217702/a-proposed-a-feast-for-crows-a-dance-with-dragons

>If ever you want to re-read the series

every five years means you have to
aint nobody remembering after 5 years tv series or no




>(or know someone
>reading it for the first time), here's the list to read the
>chapters of Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons in legit
>chronological order.





>I'm definitely doing this in about ten years when A Dream of
>Spring gets released.
>
>List and non-spoilery explanation for first time readers:
>
>http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-reader-friendly-combined-reading-order-for-a
>
>List and explanation for re-readers:
>
>http://boiledleather.com/post/24543217702/a-proposed-a-feast-for-crows-a-dance-with-dragons


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

If it pans out this way, it should surprise absolutely no one. I don't see how the show doesn't end up "spoiling" the ending though. HBO ain't stretching this out (at least) seven more years.

http://www.avclub.com/article/you-might-have-wait-george-rr-martin-write-three-m-205364?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=Status:2:Default

You might have to wait for George R.R. Martin to write three more books, actually

By Sean O'Neal Jun 3, 2014 4:38 PM
While fans, TV producers, and even George R.R. Martin himself have only become more vocally anxious in recent months about the wait for Martin�s sixth and seventh novels in his Song Of Ice And Fire series, now his editor has given you something else to worry about: an eighth novel. Anne Groell recently submitted to some fan questions on Suvudu Universe, where she was asked whether she really thinks Martin can wrap up the whole saga in seven books. Her answer is unlikely to comfort those who have thought that their current wait was somewhat close to over�or had already been somewhat defined.

"I begin to wonder � though 7 is what we currently have under contract. I remember when he called me, years and years back, to confess that his little trilogy was...well...no longer a trilogy. He predicted four books. I said Seven Books for Seven Kingdoms. Then he said five books. I said Seven Books for Seven Kingdoms. Then he went to six. I said...Well, you get it. Finally, we were on the same page. Seven Books for Seven Kingdoms. Good. Only, as I recently learned while editing THE WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE (another awesome thing you must buy when it comes out!), there are really technically eight kingdoms, all having to do with who has annexed what when Aegon the Conqueror landed in Westeros. So, maybe eight books for Seven Kingdoms would be okay. Also, he has promised me that, when he finally wraps this great beast us, I can publish the five page letter outlining the bare bones of the �trilogy.�"

While you�re still awaiting the publication of that possible eighth book�and that letter, which Martin already wrote, at least�Groell gave an update on book six, The Winds Of Winter, which she believes will be out �reasonably soon.� According to her, Martin gave her 168 pages a little more than a year ago to meet a contract requirement, and �I know more exists, because he keeps talking about chapter he hasn�t yet sent me.� In the meantime, Groell reminds readers that she�s been as patient as anyone, even raising �a two and a half year old walking, talking human being� while waiting around for one. Who knows how many children she could raise between now and an eighth book?

there is no way the show won't spoil the ending now.

Really hope its playful teasing, rather than a legitimate fear.






Because if so, MOTHERFU-

the events of Feast and Dance were supposed to be just one book too. the carte blanche he has now is detrimental, as seemingly any little idea rolling in his head turns into an 100-page detour.

"who sits on the Iron Throne" thing. Then he's got to deal with The Others and the Dragons and whatnot.

>Then he's got to deal
>with The Others and the Dragons and whatnot.

And yet... here we are. I've always assumed book 6 is about the Tyrells taking over King's Landing and fighting against the Martells by proxy through "Aegon Targaryen", and Bran (and possibly Jon) continuing to explore beyond the Wall. I don't even know where the hell the rest of Greyjoy's fit in, or Sansa and Littlefinger, or even Tyrion. But yeah, too many threads for Martin to tie up in two books.

>seemingly any little idea rolling in his head turns into an
>100-page detour.

exactly. that Quentyn Martell shit almost made me give up

I felt like the main story ended at the crossbow incident. Books 4 and 5, though enjoyable in certain parts, read like a LONG epilogue to me. He really should've at least put one of the battles (Winterfell or Meereen) at the end of book 5.

I didn't anticipate the entire episode being the wall


Fantastically done
Reading it was just as intense and exciting
And also cemented my appreciation for Jon Snow

I don't know if I consider the episode better than the book
It's on par for me I really liked both immensely
What about y'all?
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Nothing for me. Those chapters were always a chore for me. I don't really care about John Snow like others apparently do.

That said, well executed. But an entire show focused on just one locale... For me the wall wouldn't be it.

s admittedly i care a great deal

but the actor playing his character is doing a great job I liked Jon in the books as well
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

When he jumped from the lift, rolled, and went immediately to work, I was like "Get it baby!"

And that smile he gave Ygritte... I just melted.

>When he jumped from the lift, rolled, and went immediately to
>work, I was like "Get it baby!"
>
>And that smile he gave Ygritte... I just melted.

i mean

http://momentummoonlight.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/52072-Jon-Snow-shirtless-gif-Ybt9.gif

http://37.media.tumblr.com/7c76dc36c7a8f727cfd8aa7f4190be43/tumblr_mtx5zvK75I1qefwl8o4_500.jpg

and got the nerve to have a name like 'Kit Harington'
i mean COME ON


I swear if George knew he was going to be cast he would have found a way to have him killed off during this episode just to spite us
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

It was very well done, but i don't think it captured the scale of the wildling army. Giants were dope as fuck. The pacing of the episode was weird. i thought we would get Stannis and now i don't even think he will make an appearance until next season.

>It was very well done, but i don't think it captured the
>scale of the wildling army.

i was watching like...i thought there were more...i figured the wall was so huh the scale was off




Giants were dope as fuck. The
>pacing of the episode was weird. i thought we would get
>Stannis and now i don't even think he will make an appearance
>until next season.


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

only because there is a more of a history to all of the characters, i still think it was really well done. next week's episode should be great.

you guys are giving me perspective


i realized i only knew Sam and was invested in Sam (and Jon and Ygritte but the background charters you mean you're right)
but really forgot all the other characters names and who they were

the kid with the arrow
the dude that hid with gilly
dude that Jon put in charge on the wall

there should have been more investment there
i had it partially because i half remembered
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

.

- i feel like (and this is not a criticism) that they didn't truly encapsulate how large an army it is that's against them. Like they didn't really capture how big the wall was and how crucial it was to fight against all that. I still loved this episode and thought it was a great way to showcase a locale that for the most part is seen as unimportant.

- Great defenses, and great usage of the some things that we've never seen before. There's a reason why that wall has stood for so many years.

- Everyone knew Ygritte was going down, but I'll miss Rose. I think she did a great job of breathing life into her character. The Fire Crotch will be missed.

- Loved the Giants. Great detail, they looked like they stank though.

- I wish they could truly explain why Janos Slynt is such a bitch.

- Still a great episode though.

>- i feel like (and this is not a criticism) that they didn't
>truly encapsulate how large an army it is that's against them.
>Like they didn't really capture how big the wall was and how
>crucial it was to fight against all that. I still loved this
>episode and thought it was a great way to showcase a locale
>that for the most part is seen as unimportant.
>
>- Great defenses, and great usage of the some things that
>we've never seen before. There's a reason why that wall has
>stood for so many years.

but i'm siding with you guys now that you are reminding me

it was still great and exciting
but the limitations of TV is definitely showing once you guys point out the issues


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

The battle of blackwater bay is the show's stunning achievement in visual work. To this point nothing has come close.

They tried with this one, but the scope may have been just too large to properly show threat from a characters POV.

It's a massive undertaking that for the most part I think they pulled off.

... but damn I have no idea what to expect with the season finale. Feels like there's a lot to get to still.

No Stannis here... maybe no Lord Commander either? Each of those segments would take too long... and did Jon Snow meet with Mance in the books? I don't recall that scene.

So for the finale, the must-finish arcs:

- Arya and Sandor
- Tyrion and Tywin will eat at least 10-15 mins
- Daenerys and children
- Some sort of resolution with Jon/Mance

Probably will get to:

- Lady Stoneheart is still possible right? I doubt they'll leave the Brienne storyline stale with her just wandering off with Pod (especially since all her interim stories aren't essential to the show)

Likely done:

- Boltons and winterfell
- Sansa
- Jorah

Did I forget anything?

So with those 4 (probably 5) segments above, that's the whole show. Really action packed finale, probably will end up being the most memorable of all the seasons

probably the last scene

>Lady Stoneheart is still possible right?

Unless they leave it w/Tywin

besides Lena Heady teased it cheekily on Instagram

The build-up took a bit too long, and where was Stannis' army? Boo hiss, guess it'll be in the next ep. And why did they have to kill off Grenn AND Pyp??

I liked:

* Ser Allister
* Ghost unleashed
* Some great death scenes
* The huge anchor hidden in ice

and Jon & Ygritte got me a bit teary eyed.

>The build-up took a bit too long, and where was Stannis'
>army?

They show up next episode, when Jon goes to meet with Mance. They show up and scatter the wildling army.

-

Can't remember the exact order of events.

The essentials:

- Jon and Mance meet, but Stannis shows up to save the day.
- Jon gets elected to head the Watch. I figure they need to show this, including the part where Stannis offers him a chance to leave the Watch and become the heir to Winterfell. They gotta show Jon choosing duty to Watch over the chance to become a Lord.
- Tyrion breaking out and killing Tysha and Tywin.
- Arya leaving the Hound to die, and then getting on the boat to Braavos
- Something with Mereen. Possibly the return of Xaro Xhoan Daxos to attack the city.
- Lady Stoneheart. Hopefully killing some Freys in the process.

Just once I'd like them to do an hour and half or hour and 15 minute episode or something. I think HBO would let them get away with it. Shoot, they've given extra run time to Treme, I think they can do it for their most watch show ever.

As for this episode, it worked well enough. I think I would have liked it better if they'd spread out the battle over many episodes, like in the book, but budget and time constraints probably prevented that. This episode definitely had some great moment though.

And it looks like Tormund is taking the place Rattleshirt, in that he'll probably be the one who gets glamoured to look like Mance and then burned alive. A shame, since I liked Tormund, but they're not going to let him off after he killed so many members of the Night's Watch.

As for Xaro, wasn't he locked in the vault with Dany's traitor sexmaiden? It's conceivable he/they didn't die, but IIRC it felt pretty definitive.

For the Meereen scene, I'm guessing we're going to get the goatherder with the burnt kids (leading to next season probably opening up with the dragons chained).

And damn... children-eating dragons, Tywin on the shitter, The Hound left for dead and (hopefully) Lady Stoneheart condemning Brienne to death... If we don't get Stannis saving the Wall, this is going to be a depressing ass finale for show watchers.

Edit: Agreed on Tormund. Although it makes me wonder who Jon is going to treat with to eventually bring the Wildlings into the Wall.

Also, this is a longshot considering we didn't get Stannis last night.. but I thought for sure we were going to get a shorter Janos Slynt in the finale. There's no way they were going to get a convoluted election for Lord Commander and with Thorne injured and Slynt dead, it seemed an easy (and TV friendly) path for Jon to become LC.

A bitter Thorne could still be the catalyst for daggers in the dark...

>As for Xaro, wasn't he locked in the vault with Dany's
>traitor sexmaiden? It's conceivable he/they didn't die, but
>IIRC it felt pretty definitive.

I'm going with how the books roll: If you don't see a character die, he/she probably isn't dead.

>For the Meereen scene, I'm guessing we're going to get the
>goatherder with the burnt kids (leading to next season
>probably opening up with the dragons chained).

Yeah, that would actually be perfect. And it contrasts with the dragons killing the sheep earlier in the season.

>And damn... children-eating dragons, Tywin on the shitter, The
>Hound left for dead and (hopefully) Lady Stoneheart condemning
>Brienne to death... If we don't get Stannis saving the Wall,
>this is going to be a depressing ass finale for show watchers.

Tyrion killing Tywin on the shitter should make the audience happy after the shit that Tyrion has gone through this season. That and him strangling Shae with the Hand's chain.

And re: Lady Stoneheart, that's why you've got to show her and the Brotherhood killing the Freys first. The initial "Oh shit!" moment has to be that she's back and she's getting revenge on the people that betrayed and killed her and her son. It adds too much if she's back and she's hanging Brienne.

>Edit: Agreed on Tormund. Although it makes me wonder who Jon
>is going to treat with to eventually bring the Wildlings into
>the Wall.

Well, I guess they could create someone new. A bring in Val in a different capacity. It does reinforce why I didn't like they had Tormund leading the raiding team in the first place. They should have introduced the Thenns the last season, or had Rattleshirt lead them.

>Also, this is a longshot considering we didn't get Stannis
>last night.. but I thought for sure we were going to get a
>shorter Janos Slynt in the finale. There's no way they were
>going to get a convoluted election for Lord Commander and with
>Thorne injured and Slynt dead, it seemed an easy (and TV
>friendly) path for Jon to become LC.
>
>A bitter Thorne could still be the catalyst for daggers in the
>dark...

Well, if they had eliminated some of the extraneous stuff in last night's episode, they could have fit in Stannis. We really didn't need 20 minutes of Sam mooning over Gilly. Episode could have ended with Stannis coming to the rescue, and the election could have been done in the final episode, only in a less convoluted way.

And I would have like Slynt's be-heading to happen in Season 5 opener. Good way to end the first episode. Dunno if that will happen though.

>I'm going with how the books roll: If you don't see a
>character die, he/she probably isn't dead.

Serious. I need to stop falling for the rope a dope

>Tyrion killing Tywin on the shitter should make the audience
>happy after the shit that Tyrion has gone through this season.
>That and him strangling Shae with the Hand's chain.

Not entirely sure about this. Despite his antagonism towards Tyrion, Tywin is a fan favorite because the character is so well written and compelling. I'm sure people will cheer Tyrion surviving, but it'll be bittersweet with Tywin's machinations gone.

And re: Lady Stoneheart, that's why you've got to show her and
>the Brotherhood killing the Freys first. The initial "Oh
>shit!" moment has to be that she's back and she's getting
>revenge on the people that betrayed and killed her and her
>son. It adds too much if she's back and she's hanging Brienne.

I think you're spot on here. While I think it'd be beastly to end the season with her (supposed) hanging, I do think it's important to establish LSH's motivations first.

However, now that I'm thinking about this... LSH might be too much of a reveal if she's not the *final* reveal of the season. I'm thinking this might get pushed to next season then, with Tyrion/Tywin as the final scene of the season. While LSH would be a mindblowing reveal this season, there's still plenty of material to work with too.


>Well, if they had eliminated some of the extraneous stuff in
>last night's episode, they could have fit in Stannis. We
>really didn't need 20 minutes of Sam mooning over Gilly.
>Episode could have ended with Stannis coming to the rescue,
>and the election could have been done in the final episode,
>only in a less convoluted way.

Pretty much. Although I do understand needing to deepen that relationship before their eventual journey, it's just not... exciting.

he is great character but that's why i wanted him dead.

In the books he comes off almost tyrannical since it's often from the POV of Tyrion that we see his actions. Tyrion killing Tywin was almost cathartic as a book reader.

However, as a show watcher it's a different story. We were given those scenes between him and Arya, his hard-assed approach with Cersei, Jaime AND Joffrey, along with myriad other scenes fleshing out his character (like with Tommen). Despite his ice cold demeanor, he's an incredibly compelling character to watch because his motives are understandable.

Just look at the reactions in the other thread on the deleted scene between him and Pycelle. People don't necessarily "root" for him, but it's clear they enjoy his scenes.

I'm telling you, there's gonna be eulogies in Tywin's name once he's gone.

and Tywin's role in that affair, people might really clamor for his death.

i still doubt they get to all of this tho.

(you meant 'shae', btw)

>The essentials:
>
>- Jon and Mance meet, but Stannis shows up to save the day.
>- Jon gets elected to head the Watch. I figure they need to
>show this, including the part where Stannis offers him a
>chance to leave the Watch and become the heir to Winterfell.
>They gotta show Jon choosing duty to Watch over the chance to
>become a Lord.
>- Tyrion breaking out and killing Tysha and Tywin.
>- Arya leaving the Hound to die, and then getting on the boat
>to Braavos
>- Something with Mereen. Possibly the return of Xaro Xhoan
>Daxos to attack the city.
>- Lady Stoneheart. Hopefully killing some Freys in the
>process.
>
>Just once I'd like them to do an hour and half or hour and 15
>minute episode or something. I think HBO would let them get
>away with it. Shoot, they've given extra run time to Treme, I
>think they can do it for their most watch show ever.
>
>As for this episode, it worked well enough. I think I would
>have liked it better if they'd spread out the battle over many
>episodes, like in the book, but budget and time constraints
>probably prevented that. This episode definitely had some
>great moment though.
>
>And it looks like Tormund is taking the place Rattleshirt, in
>that he'll probably be the one who gets glamoured to look like
>Mance and then burned alive. A shame, since I liked Tormund,
>but they're not going to let him off after he killed so many
>members of the Night's Watch.

Or at least trimmed the 20 minutes of prologue.

>(you meant 'shae', btw)

LOL. Yep, I did. I'm an idiot. Tysha is Tyrion first "wife", right? I doubt we're getting that revelation at all either. They haven't even mentioned her since Season #1.

>The essentials:
>
>- Jon and Mance meet, but Stannis shows up to save the day.
>- Jon gets elected to head the Watch. I figure they need to
>show this, including the part where Stannis offers him a
>chance to leave the Watch and become the heir to Winterfell.
>They gotta show Jon choosing duty to Watch over the chance to
>become a Lord.

I think that would be a ton to put into the finale. I think some of this, but not all of it will make it in.

>- Tyrion breaking out and killing Tysha and Tywin.

That's happening.

>- Arya leaving the Hound to die, and then getting on the boat
>to Braavos

Happening.

>- Something with Mereen. Possibly the return of Xaro Xhoan
>Daxos to attack the city.

I honestly have no interest in Meeren at all.

>- Lady Stoneheart. Hopefully killing some Freys in the
>process.
>

I think she shows up, but Brienne and Pod haven't been through nearly enough to kill her yet. They have an entire book of experiences before they get hung, so I don't think this shows up yet. I think Stoneheart just kills some Freys.

>I think that would be a ton to put into the finale. I think
>some of this, but not all of it will make it in.

Probably just Stannis saving the day. Jon's election would have been nice tho.

>I honestly have no interest in Meeren at all.

Wallysmith's suggestion is probably what's going to happen: the shepherd showing up with the dead children. Relates back to the earlier episode and really demonstrates how hard it is for her to rule.

>I think she shows up, but Brienne and Pod haven't been through
>nearly enough to kill her yet. They have an entire book of
>experiences before they get hung, so I don't think this shows
>up yet. I think Stoneheart just kills some Freys.

I agree. Save the stuff with Brienne and Pod for the end of the next season.

>
>Probably just Stannis saving the day. Jon's election would
>have been nice tho.
>
They could open with that next season setting Sam off to be a Maester with Gilly and Maester Aemon.

>>I honestly have no interest in Meeren at all.
>
>Wallysmith's suggestion is probably what's going to happen:
>the shepherd showing up with the dead children. Relates back
>to the earlier episode and really demonstrates how hard it is
>for her to rule.
>

Yea the dead children because of the dragons and then having to chain the dragons up

>I agree. Save the stuff with Brienne and Pod for the end of
>the next season.
yea, they have a few things to go through before that scene where she gets all fucked up and then meets lady stoneheart and hung. With Lem Lemoncoat who's now a damn brute which seemed a bit strange but whatever.

for the finale

feminist blogs are going to lose their shit when Tyrion strangles Shae

I can see the articles now: "Game of Thrones women problem"

I already saw think recent think pieces about Game of Thrones having a women problem.

Hell you have these rad femmes writing think pieces about Maleficent being about rape for God's sake!

While the depiction of the women "problem" in Game of Thrones can be difficult, it's also uncomfortably realistic of those times. And, honestly, a lot of the misogyny is still present to this day:

http://mylunaticravings.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/1958091_692513730771596_997758923_n.jpg

With respect to Shae though, we have the unusual case of seeing the context behind the "abuse." The violence that will occur between Tyrion and Shae isn't borne BECAUSE Shae is female, but rather because of legitimate personal conflict between two individuals.

To be clear, I'm not necessarily justifying Tyrion's admittedly extreme reaction to his perceived betrayal from Shae. But her death is also accompanied by Tywin's death, which continues the point of legitimate personal conflict between two individuals.

If a feminist wants to argue the point that Shae is being "abused" by Tyrion because she's female, then it wouldn't reconcile the fact that Tywin dies as well. Shae's death occurred because Tyrion was pissed as hell at both individuals, gender be damned.

If he even kills her at all.

More likely, he'll cross bow her also.



http://twitter.com/collazo

But they've surprised me before.

Out of all the testimony in his trial, it was clear that Shae's stunned him the most, to the point where he was pleading for her to stop. And she didn't.

His resentment towards his father is deep seated and has been in place for a long, long time. But he had genuine (dare I say it) love for Shae, and his insistence on sending her away wasn't a betrayal but was for her safety. He still loved her when his trial started, but that ended when she opened her mouth.

Then finding her in Tywin's *bed*?!? Come on.

Rather than tryingt o sweet talk her way out she sees him and immediately grabs a knife. So he has to kill her to preserve his own life.

There for Tyrion, but with the way it plays out in the books dude is just torn apart and is done.

This way you keep some of that emotion along with that immense feeling of betrayal.

It just has to.

Imho, they haven't built the betrayal as hard as they did in the books. In television world they had it as Shae being niave and feeling Tyrion betrayed her first (kicking her out, calling her a whore). Shae in the books was a much harder edged character and it would play out differently for Tyrion to murder her with his bare hands in a rage.

Crossbow arrow I think is a nice compromise, lol

I have heard some speculation that Tyrion catches Tywin in the act of strangling Shae and that prompts him to kill him. And I guess it would make some sense to do it like that to keep Tyrion a "pure" "hero" character in the eyes of the audience. But I feel like that's a cop out. Regardless of the reason Shae still betrayed him on some petty shit, and willfully lied and placed him in a position that he would have been killed, when he only tried to help her but she was too blind to see it. She has to go by his hand.

>Imho, they haven't built the betrayal as hard as they did in
>the books. In television world they had it as Shae being niave
>and feeling Tyrion betrayed her first (kicking her out,
>calling her a whore). Shae in the books was a much harder
>edged character and it would play out differently for Tyrion
>to murder her with his bare hands in a rage.
>
>Crossbow arrow I think is a nice compromise, lol

you see how hard they are riding for this
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

... Now that I'm caught up with the books, I can't help but read further into shit. The depth that people go into analyzing these books is blowing my mind... and there's a shit load of theories (if even half of these come true, even more massive props to Martin for creating such a consistent world).

This thread right here (both post and comments) is particularly absurd. Warning: do NOT read though if you'd prefer to find out some of these things directly from the books. A lot of the passages used as evidence can be... circumstantial, but the overall picture painted is extremely compelling (and fits in well with some of the other tinfoil theories and Martin's world in general).


http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1yljs8/spoilers_all_high_septon_tinfoil_theory/


I can sit here for days reading this stuff, dammit real world getting in the way

Whoa, this is an amazing theory. The more comments and such that I read, the more substantial I think it is.

It is definitely an interesting theory, and definitely plausible. Moreso than the "Roose is immortal" theory.

I fall down that damn rabbit hole every time I hit that subreddit.

The whole


MAYBE MAJOR FUTURE SPOILER DON"T READ IF YOU DON"T WANT TO KNOW


*&&^^&&*^
%&*&^%^
R+L=J
^$^&*^%$$
$^&^%$$&%


END MAYBE FUTURE SPOILER MAYBE NOT



theory still fucks with me. So much of it fits. Sometimes I wish I didn't read it, but I will say that knowing these theories makes me want to reread the books sooner rather than later to see the hints as they happen for myself.



Roose is immortal though? Wtf is that, lol

>
>
>
>Roose is immortal though? Wtf is that, lol
>
>
It's the idea that Roose Bolton has always been the lord of the Dreadfort, and has kept himself alive for thousands of years through dark blood magic that works through the taking the skins of his enemies and the leechings and whatnot.

The theory does have a certain appeal to it. Throughout the books, Roose never talks about any of his ancestors or relatives, besides a vague allusion to his forbears in one chapter. Not one mention of parents, uncles, nephews, nieces, etc. Only Ramsay, who doesn't become a Bolton until ADWD. Also, nobody knows anything that actually happens in the Dreadfort or on Bolton's lands when they're not at war. There's been a few mentions that the Bolton's are completely unassuming and quiet, until Robb Stark called in his banner-men.

The general idea is that eventually Roose is eventually going to kill Ramsay and "assume his skin," in the process making it look like Roose is the one who died, then live on as the Lord of the North under Ramsay's identity. It'd partly explain why Roose is so concerned with how Ramsay conducts himself in public; he's going to eventually live as "Ramsay", so he doesn't want a bad rep.

It's a common theme for the Boltons: Ramsay assumes Reek's "skin" when he's captured by the Stark's. Ramsay turns Theon into the new "Reek." It's like Roose and Reek have existed for thousands of year, with someone being transformed into the "Reek" role, while Roose physically lives forever.

It's definitely way up there on the tinfoil hat meter, haha. Some interesting circumstantial evidence there, although I always attributed relative Bolton secrecy as just that... relative secrecy. Martin (thankfully) doesn't go too deep into each house's history, and it can be (weakly) argued that Mormonts and Tarly's are major characters but we don't know too much about them either.

But yeah, that's a pretty wild theory, and Martin does seem like the type to attribute more weight to the sigil of the flayed man than just something Boltons do to their enemies.



So... when is Winds of Winter getting released again? Sigh.

***SPOILERS ON CONSPIRACY THEORIES IF ANYONE CARES****



















>It's definitely way up there on the tinfoil hat meter, haha.
>Some interesting circumstantial evidence there, although I
>always attributed relative Bolton secrecy as just that...
>relative secrecy. Martin (thankfully) doesn't go too deep
>into each house's history, and it can be (weakly) argued that
>Mormonts and Tarly's are major characters but we don't know
>too much about them either.

It's a little weird even for Martin, since almost all the others houses get some back-story and mentions of their extended family trees. With the Boltons, it's just... Roose. And now Ramsay.

But yeah, it's pretty tin-foil hat territory. You really want to go down the rabbit-hole, read the seven-part "Grand North Conspiracy" theory. Short version: The House of the North aren't nearly as cowed by the Boltons and the Freys as they appear, and they are about to revolt. They aren't impressed with Stannis either (he doesn't respect the Old Gods and is obsessed with Rh'lor), so they plan to install a legitimized Jon Snow as the King as the North.

Now all they need to do is establish who the "Hooded Man" is.

I haven't read about the GNC, but I've seen it referenced in various comments.

However, I DID read a compelling thread on who THM could be...

ALERT MAYBE FUTURE SPOILERS IF YOU CLICK

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/27sjho/spoilers_all_the_hooded_man_in_winterfell_is/




This is actually the thread that led me down the rabbit hole, prompting me to post that other thread

I didn't fully grasp the significance of THM though, because I wasn't aware of the GNC at the time


It's Friday, time to get lost...

Some of the podcast's I've been listening too some criticism from book readers have been negative and calling this past episode disappointing, mainly because they don't care about these characters or the storyline of the wall. That has irked me so much because I feel they missed the point of this battle.

As a book reader I LOVED this episode. That battle was everything! I think they nailed the page to screen experience in portraying this battle and I'm excited there's a little more to come.

I think the not caring about these characters or what happens at the wall actually made this episode great to me. I think about it in this way, in the context of the show, no one at Kings Landing cared about the wall and these characters (except Tyrion) The leaders at the wall sent out numerous reports and requests for help and they all were ignored (with one forthcoming exception). The point has been made very well that the Watchers on the Wall we're on their own in their own battle and those characters know they are on their own. They believe that no help will be coming from the realm they are sworn to protect. The only other characters and army that cared about them are dead (Starks of Winterfell) but yet they keep their watch, they hold to their duty, they fight a seemingly unwinnable battle and emerge beaten but not broken. These characters are protecting and fighting for the other characters that the dissenters care so much more about. Without what happens on the wall the rest of the realm is lost. "The stakes is high, you know the stakes is high." � De La Soul.

So with that knowledge every conversation, every speech, every loss that happened during this battle hit home with me. From Sam's awkward banter with Jon and the talk with Maester Aemon to the subsequent reunion with Gilly. Ser Allser almost apologizing and admitting he was wrong. Sidebar, that fight between Alliser and Tormund was awesome. Alliser has always been portrayed as a asshole on this show and in correlation to how Tormund was portrayed when he was introduced was kind of a likable jovial brute. Our minds are wired to root for someone during this fight and even though Alliser was a ass and Tormund was likable I was rooting for Ser Alliser hard because Alliser is the good guy in this fight against this brute that has been killing innocent people and a threat to the realm. My favorite beat in this episode was with Grenn and the other brothers in the tunnel about to fight the giant. They were scared almost ran away but kept to their duty to the realm. When Grenn led the charge and had them recite their oath I almost broke out in tears, getting misty just thinking about that scene.

A couple of other points of note, Jon taking lead was awesome and all the hand to hand combat was visceral. The reunion and death of Yigrette was great, Sam was pretty effective this episode and he had a great charcter moment. Freaking Giants riding Mammoths! Bitch ass Janos Slynt being sent away!

Like I said this episode was everything! I was on the edge of my seat every minute of it.

My main issue were with Joanna Robinson from 'A Cast of Kings' http://www.slashfilm.com/cast-kings-s4e09-watchers-wall/

And with Aron from 'Bald Move' http://baldmove.com/game-of-thrones/409-the-watchers-on-the-wall/

I also listen to Nina Perez from podcast fandom: http://projectfandom.com/game-of-thrones-s4e9-podcast/ I really enjoy her show.

Their "Fargo" recaps are good as shit too.

i'm out.
_____________________
"WHOLESALE REUSABLE GROCERY BAGS!!"
@etfp

Brienne is a bad ass


Still felt bad for clegane(younger not older, older can rot...of course lol)
Forgot about jojen that hurt
Daenerys you knew it was coming
Tyrion bout time you woke the fuck up damn man it sucks though tywin had it coming


Can't wait to see Arya in training!!!
Oh Jon :(
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Yeah I loved Brienne vs the Hound. They gon learn my girl aint no joke!

I was hoping for Lady Stoneheart, but that's cool, more for next season.

I didn't much like the Children throwing fire balls but I'm over it. I wonder if it will turn people off though. I knew I was done with True Blood once I saw the first fairy throw one.


It also didn't seem clear that those skeletons were Wights. I wonder if viewers got that.

where as, if you read, it wasn't as cut and chase ....

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

and put lady Stoneheart in

i was digging it but that would have wrapped things up perfectly

I mean, damb, ok, I mean, WAT DA FOK?

>I mean, damb, ok, I mean, WAT DA FOK?

Even in the book she never really got to flex; her and Jamie's fights were more like brothers fighting.

That shit was to the death.

- Why are niggas so pressed to see Lady Stoneheart? She doesn't really show up until the end of Book 4, Brienne and Podrick have a ton of traveling to do before they get to that part, Let her cook there's some good story telling to lead up to that. Lets not rush it.

- Arya turned into a little girl again when she was talking to Brienne. It was crazy, she felt like she'd found a kindred spirit in that fucked up crazy world they're all trying to make it in. When my man Sandor shat on their whole interaction I was like damn, dude is really fond of Arya now. its all gruff and mean, but he genuinely cares about her. ooops oh well he took Brienne for a chump and got washed. LOVE IT

- I gotta say I loved how Stannis and Davos jumped down off the horses, they made that shit look extra baddass. Also I dn't think i've ever seen Stannis smile as much as he did as his men were wiping out the wildlings. It was almost creepy, meanwhile my man Davos flexing on people "you're talking to the one true king BOY!" shit was good.

- Mance for all that they've made him out to be, he's a good guy who just wants to save his people. He knows that there are some who are a bit more wild than others, but at the end of the day he was just trynna get to the other side of the wall to escape the wights. Great acting, and fantastically textured scenes with he and Jon.

- Jon and Tormund was fantastic. Of course he loved her.

- Locking them Dragons up really hurt me, they were like "mom where you going mom, we can't get up, MOM MOM MOMMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I was legit hurt about that.

- How in the blind holy fuck does Tywin Lannister not know his kids were fucking? He's one of the smartest men in Westeros and all that, and this fool gone look at his two blonde children, see that Robert was different and not see his children in Joffrey & Tommen? Come the fuck on.

- I love Tyrion, also Varys was like NAW I on't know what you did, but i'm not going back there for that fuck shit i'm staying on this boat.

- I like the changes in dialogue between Jaime and Tyrion. It was definitely more mushy, but I still liked it.

- Call her a whore again, call her a whore one more got damn time and she what happen, I dare you, call my bitch a whore one more time and see if I don't let loose!!!

I actually read books 1-3 and about a 1/4th of A Feast for Crows a couple of years ago. I stopped reading because I frankly got bored with AFFC, especially because my favorite characters were dead.

I've enjoyed this season though, and would like to finish all the books before next season arrives. Did Season 4 cover all of A Feast For Crows or should I still read that? From what I've gathered this season diverged from the books and covered some material from A Dance With Dragons, is that true?

Where should I start?

It had very little Feast For Crows, but some of Dance With Dragons.

Honestly, if you want to pick up where you left off, you probably should re-start Feast For Crows. Actually, a some responses above there's a link from someone who mapped out how to read Feast For Crows and Dance With Dragons in "chronological order", as they happen pretty much simultaneously. That might work, as you can break up the Damphair chapters with more interesting stuff.

If you go into AFFC knowing it's a slower story, you might enjoy it more. I've read it twice and it's the one book I enjoyed more the second time. Yes, it needs the most editing, but there's some really good stuff in it, especially the last quarter of the book.

That last quarter is really good stuff.

How mad are y'all right now that they didn't give us Lady Stoneheart?

I'm kinda bummed about it and I imagine a lot of of book purists were butt hurt last night.

there was no way they could have fit in Lady Stoneheart, not even with cutting out the fluff (Ygritte funeral pyre didn't really need to happen).

I used to think her hanging Brienne would be a great way to end the season, but it's of utmost importance that her motivations are established first before going full "heel".

Freys need to get fucked up first long before she meets Brienne, and there's no way they fit that AND Brienne into last night's show.



With that said... good finale, but soemwhat disappointed. Really bummed they cut out Tysha because while Tyrion already had ample motivation to deal with Shae/Tywin, it was *that* story that really set him into a fury.

Although it would have left Jaime and Tyrion's relationship with some uncertainty... so hopefully the showrunners know what they're doing.

Or, at least according to the director and the writers, they haven't figured out how to fit her in. Regardless, sounds like she was never part of the plan this season.

http://www.avclub.com/article/game-thrones-explains-why-character-wasnt-finaleyo-205870

Game Of Thrones director explains why that character wasn�t in the finale�you know the one

Chief among complaints about last night�s Game Of Thrones finale�complaints that give away major events for those who, like me, have yet to read the books (and who therefore would consider this a SPOILER; so, just to make clear, these words constitute a lengthy, yet obviously necessary preamble to help you avoid reading things that you don�t want to, and leave the decision of what and what not to read entirely up to you) but are nevertheless reading and writing articles about it today like it�s their job�was the absence of Lady Stoneheart, a character who makes her first appearance in the epilogue to George R.R. Martin�s A Storm Of Swords. The resurrected, zombified version of Catelyn Stark that will now no longer be a surprise to me was expected by many to pop up this season, not least because Lena Headey�s spoiler-filled Instagram seemed to hint at it. But of course, she did not, and today director Alex Graves is making the rounds to explain why.

Speaking to Vulture, Graves said that he first asked aloud about Lady Stoneheart during his third-season episode featuring Beric Dondarrion�the Brotherhood Without Banners leader who is Lady Stoneheart�s creator�only to have showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss say, �Oh, yeah, you know, that�s a whole thing that we�re just not sure what we�re going to do about.� As Graves tells both Vulture and Entertainment Weekly, they�re still unsure. �It was never going to be in the season,� he says, �yet it took off on the Internet like it was going to happen.�

Besides wanting, as always, to upset the Internet, the Game Of Thrones team had other reasons for keeping the character out of play. They already had a whole mess of concurrent storylines to keep track of, for one thing, but also: �To bring back Michelle Fairley, one of the greatest actresses around, to be a zombie for a little while�and just kill people?� Graves says to EW. �It is really sort of, what are we doing with that? How does it play into the whole story in a way that we�re really going to like?�

As to whether they�ll figure out a satisfactory way to incorporate Lady Stoneheart by next season, Graves doesn�t know�or, at least, he�s very good at insisting that he�s been kept in the dark. In the meantime, he also offers his thoughts on The Hound�s fate (�as I told the story � he�s gone. How is he going to survive that?�), those five expensive days it took to shoot that skeleton battle sequence, and some other things that won�t give away any major events for non-readers, like a character coming back as a zombie.

>Speaking to Vulture, Graves said that he first asked aloud
>about Lady Stoneheart during his third-season episode
>featuring Beric Dondarrion�the Brotherhood Without Banners
>leader who is Lady Stoneheart�s creator�only to have
>showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss say, �Oh, yeah, you
>know, that�s a whole thing that we�re just not sure what we�re
>going to do about.� As Graves tells both Vulture and
>Entertainment Weekly, they�re still unsure. �It was never
>going to be in the season,� he says, �yet it took off on the
>Internet like it was going to happen.�
>
>Besides wanting, as always, to upset the Internet, the Game Of
>Thrones team had other reasons for keeping the character out
>of play. They already had a whole mess of concurrent
>storylines to keep track of, for one thing, but also: �To
>bring back Michelle Fairley, one of the greatest actresses
>around, to be a zombie for a little while�and just kill
>people?� Graves says to EW. �It is really sort of, what are we
>doing with that? How does it play into the whole story in a
>way that we�re really going to like?�
>
>As to whether they�ll figure out a satisfactory way to
>incorporate Lady Stoneheart by next season, Graves doesn�t
>know�or, at least, he�s very good at insisting that he�s been
>kept in the dark. In the meantime, he also offers his thoughts
>on The Hound�s fate (�as I told the story � he�s gone. How is
>he going to survive that?�), those five expensive days it took
>to shoot that skeleton battle sequence, and some other things
>that won�t give away any major events for non-readers, like a
>character coming back as a zombie.

but it made the fantasy aspect less shocking
also for some reason was my key to understanding melisandre
and her not looking like a complete loon
and her work "accidents" or "coincidences"
also that shit is starting to pop off below the wall

it is a bit of a side storyline
but it does help
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

How you gonna have the GNC play out with Zombie Cat?



Seriously, the GNC... spent hours reading that dissertation the other day. It all fits.

Hooded man, Battle for Winterfell, Manderly, High Septon, AA... it's crazy.


*adjusts tinfoil hat more snugly*

but that was a deep cut tho. And that whole shit about needing to establish her is a cop out. At least to me. Of course I'm a book reader and I know the history of the character and the story but anybody with at least a elementary level of comprehension could have understood a scene with her in it.

Strictly show watchers may not have remembered the whole Beric Dondarian resurrection plot right off but people should remember the Red Wedding and that the Freys did that shit and she's executing men from House Frey.

Hell they didn't even have to explain it. Just make it a big WTF cliffhanger. Mofos would have been geeked about next season. As you can tell I'm a little butt hurt but it is what it is. The omission is doubly odd because this alters the trajectory of Pod & Brienne's story. But I'll hold out hope for her in Season 5, maybe the opener.

>Hell they didn't even have to explain it. Just make it a big
>WTF cliffhanger. Mofos would have been geeked about next
>season.

show it now and explain it later. there's usually a grand reveal at the end of each season. i thought this would be it, just as it is in the book, tease it and leave you hanging wanting to learn more.

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/28cj32/all_spoilersso_does_noone_remember_in_season_2/

i'm perfectly fine with it as long as we see her next season.

she's cool, but so much about her is mysterious that i don't care about her as much as i do already seen characters...they can wait til the middle to end of next season to show her...

other than another mystery, what is she bringing to the table??

she came back on the wrong show!

and she is sending all the returned right back to wherever they came from too...

like she got her networks mixed up and shit

Unless Michelle Fairley is being extra with it, doesn't look like we'll get LSH at ALL.

Really disheartening, ugh.

Interview here (do NOT click if you don't want to see 24 spoilers):

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/25/michelle-fairley-24-lady-stoneheart/

Relevant passage:

EW: You couldn�t have missed the online furor over the lack of Lady Stoneheart in the Thrones finale. Were you surprised by that attention?

Michelle Fairley: I actually haven�t seen any of that. I don�t look that stuff up. I avoid it like the plague. I was totally unaware.

EW: There was a lot of online conversation. I heard third-hand that you were basically told that it�s not likely to ever happen. Is that accurate?

Michelle Fairley: Yeah, the character�s dead. She�s dead.

EW: Do you have a preference at all�do you think Catelyn�s arc should end where it ended, or would you be into the resurrection idea?

Michelle Fairley: You respect the writers� decision. I knew the arc, and that was it. They can�t stick to the books 100 percent. It�s impossible�they only have 10 hours per season. They have got to keep it dramatic and exciting, and extraneous stuff along the way gets lost in order to maintain the quality of brilliant show.

Like I did for Coldhands and look where that has got me, I know I know.

Otherwise what was the point of having the Brotherhood without banners last year? I bet they're just saving it for season 5 or 6, since 4 was so condensed already.

hope shes lying

me no likey.

I don't think the show will miss that much not having her.

That's just me though, I can clearly see i'm in the minority.

Not tinfoil hat theories, but a series of essays breaking down the intricacies of what is probably one of the most snooze-inducing arcs in the books: Daenerys in Meereen.

Really compelling stuff, and paints everything in a COMPLETELY different light from what sentiment usually is regarding Dany's chapters in ADWD.

I kinda zoned out throughout those chapters, but these (very well-written) essays really changed my perception on everything. Shavepate as Littlefinger, Barristan the Buffoon, and Daenerys' internal struggle... well done all around.

http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/09/27/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-i-who-poisoned-the-locusts/

>Not tinfoil hat theories, but a series of essays breaking
>down the intricacies of what is probably one of the most
>snooze-inducing arcs in the books: Daenerys in Meereen.
>
>Really compelling stuff, and paints everything in a COMPLETELY
>different light from what sentiment usually is regarding
>Dany's chapters in ADWD.
>
>I kinda zoned out throughout those chapters, but these (very
>well-written) essays really changed my perception on
>everything. Shavepate as Littlefinger, Barristan the Buffoon,
>and Daenerys' internal struggle... well done all around.
>
>http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/09/27/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-i-who-poisoned-the-locusts/

Because yes it's the worse
I'll take a look
I wasn't looking forward to this at all
And I'm still
Zzzzzzzzzzz


I'm here because I have faith in George he's such a good writer
But yeah mereen is torture
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

askjhfklahfekj;sjv;vjsa;f j

http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/we-went-there-george-r-r-martin-unveils-his-thrones-pedia-the-world-of-ice-fire-in-manhattan/

"The road to The World of Ice & Fire is as winding as Martin’s story. It was originally contracted to be published in 2008. It actually arrives in stores, virtual or otherwise, on the 28th of October, 2014. “You know how that goes,” said Martin to much laughter from the audience. Along the way, as happens to all things Westeros, the story just grew and grew and grew. The plan was for Elio and Linda to come up with an outline of sorts, based on what was known from the existing books, and for George to then flesh out the details. The contract with Bantam called for some 50,ooo words. Elio and Linda sent George an outline in the neighborhood of 70,000 words. George, for his part, fleshed the thing out to the tune of 300,000 words. And you guys wonder where the sixth book is."

this world of ice and fire book looks cool at least.

this season has me wanting to go back and re-read or download the audio books again. So far i have got

-Sansa in Winterfell
-Selmy dying (he is a POV character so it is weird to kill him off)
-Greyscale for Mormont

What else y'all got, what are your thoughts on the changes?

- Brienne's entire arc (calling out Stannis!?!?)
- Shireen going with Stannis

Vox's weekly article highlighting the differences is a great read as well:

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/10/8583315/game-of-thrones-episode-5-adaptation

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/3/8539501/game-of-thrones-episode-4-adaptation/in/8156066

http://www.vox.com/2015/4/26/8500793/game-of-thrones-episode-3-adaptation/in/8156066

http://www.vox.com/2015/4/19/8445365/game-of-thrones-adaptation-episode-2/in/8156066

http://www.vox.com/2015/4/12/8383337/game-of-thrones-season-5-changes/in/8156066

good reads

Not feeling it at all. I wanted to see him at Dragonstone instead.

Bronn even being around much less being with Jaime in Dorne.
-Jaime should be in the riverlands

Absence of the Iron Born

Mance being burned

No Aegon and Connington

No Quentin

Stannis taking Shireen and wife to Winterfell

Jaqen Hagar as Arya's teacher

Stannis loaning his ships to the watch

No Davos looking for Rickon

Stone Men is Valyria instead of the Sorrows.

Chomping at the bit for rape
They can't help themselves
They really have no sense of storyline and subtlety
the moment they have chances to veer they absolutely must go for cheap thrills

And I don't even like Sansa smh*
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

the same thing basically happened with Drogo and Daenerys... and that was Martin's writing.

And I'm not sure how it would have looked if Theon had... "primed" Ramsay's wife like in the books.

At least they kept the brutality off screen... :(

>the same thing basically happened with Drogo and Daenerys...
>and that was Martin's writing.
>
>And I'm not sure how it would have looked if Theon had...
>"primed" Ramsay's wife like in the books.
>
>At least they kept the brutality off screen... :(

but again
George at least works it in, there are reasons
its not just hey i'm doing this for the heck of it
and definitely not for reader satisfaction or impact
hes far from gratuitous about what he does

these writers
are hard on that gratuitous path

but yes at least they did that
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

They've taken the Sand Snakes/Dorne plot and completely ruined it. And they're dragging down Jamie in the process. Bronn is the only thing that makes it slightly worth watching.

Reducing the Sparrows' ascendance/presence in King's Landing to "They hate teh gays" reduces their impact. And they've marginalized about all of the Tyrells. The Queen of Thorns is the only one that escapes unscathed.

They've given Stannis' story the short shrift. Having him win the loyalty of the tribes of the North and take back Deepwood Motte would have been kind of cool, would have helped show him learning how to lead, and could have included Asha/Yara, who is a great character. Having him march with Davos, Melissandre, and family makes it all less interesting. The story really misses Davos at White Harobr and particularly the scene with him and Wyman Manderly. The show could really use the Manderlys and the Freys, showing how fucking despised they've become post-Red Wedding.

They've made me hate the shit in Mereen even more than I did in the book, which is saying something. And, yes, it thoroughly pisses me off that they killed Baristan Selmy for no reason, as they ruined him and the Unsullied as characters/forces in the process. In fact, it appears the only reason they did killed Barristan is to preserve the romance between Grey Worm and Missendei that no one gives a fuck about.

And yes, they made the rape seem gratuitous. Far be it from me to agre with 1,000 think-pieces, but none of it has been earned. And the whole plot to set it up is incredibly out-of-character for Littlefinger, even with the meeting between him and Cersei. The only, ONLY theory that I've read that could make it lead to anything worth the time is that they're setting up Sansa to be Lady Stoneheart, instead of her mother. But truthfully, I'd rather just have the real thing and Sansa learn the Game from Littlefinger at the Vale.

So yeah, this show is really starting to blow. And truthfully, the main person I blame is Martin, who can't finish these books and give these nimrods the proper directions.

>And truthfully, the main person I blame is Martin, who can't finish
>these books and give these nimrods the proper directions.

>So yeah, this show is really starting to blow. And truthfully,
>the main person I blame is Martin, who can't finish these
>books and give these nimrods the proper directions.

There's been a ton of headscratching scenes this season. But, to be fair... considering the show in the context of:

- a 10-hour season that will not go past 8 seasons
- filming in three different countries over 200 days
- a current cost of "at least" $8 million per episode
- story arcs that already surpass the scope of the books

... how would the following sequences be feasible?

> Having him win the loyalty of the tribes of the North and take back Deepwood Motte would have been kind of cool

> The story really misses Davos at White Harobr and particularly the scene with him and Wyman Manderly

I agree that both would be awesome, and the Davos/Manderly scene is one of the best, most hopeful reveals in the entire series. But that would mean casting Manderly & co., developing another location, working Davos' departure in the storyline, etc. It's a massive commitment to both the showrunners and the viewers to introduce new settings. I hear you, but it's just not feasible.

> They've taken the Sand Snakes/Dorne plot and completely ruined it.

Yup. Fucking brutal. There had to be a better way to handle Dorne than this Mr Bean chase shit. Casting is bad, choreography is bad, dialogue is bad. That's on the show through and through.

> Reducing the Sparrows' ascendance/presence in King's Landing to "They hate teh gays" reduces their impact.

Agreed, it's a disappointing way to portray a great storyline in the books. But, to play devil's advocate, the way it's handled now makes it easier to understand for the (lowest common denominator) viewer, it keeps the storyline within characters we're already invested in and moves at a brisk pace. There was no way the Kettleblacks and some paranoia-driven adultery charge was gonna make any sense with a scene or two (if that) each episode. There are too many other arcs that need coverage too. But can we at least give them credit for giving Olenna more shine than in the books?

> They've given Stannis' story the short shrift.

I respectfully disagree; for me personally the scenes at the Wall have been some of the most interesting. Winning the tribes in the North would be great television, but ultimately unnecessary (since it's already established he has funding from the Iron Bank for Salladhor Saan's men). The lack of Yara is disappointing but understandable... looks like she'll be merged with Theon? Not even sure what her eventual role in the books will be, so she may be expendable.

I think Davos will eventually play his same role, just not through Manderly. It's notable that Ramsay reiterated Theon's main "sin" to Sansa as a reminder to the viewer. It would be an incredible bit of redemption for Theon if he discloses her brothers aren't dead to Davos after the Battle of Ice. And it makes sense production-wise to combine several roles in Theon, who the viewer is already intimately familiar with.

> They've made me hate the shit in Mereen even more than I did in the book, which is saying something

Yeah, it's definitely clunky. I get the changes for time constraints, but there were a lot of scenes that could have been better within the context of production. Hated that Drogon/Dany scene too... it would have been perfect if the only reminder he was free was when Jorah and Tyrion saw him overhead.

And I can't defend Selmy's death. I get trying to shake things up for the book readers, but his death also means he plays no major role in the books either. Besides the fact the whole scene was really shittily done... the fight choreography has really fallen off a cliff this season.

> And yes, they made the rape seem gratuitous

Within the next episode or two, I think most people will come to understand that scene. People focus on Sansa, but it was just as much about Theon's development as it was hers (in the context of the show).

> they're setting up Sansa to be Lady Stoneheart, instead of her mother

This has been the first I've heard about Sansa as LSH, and I like it, it makes sense. But although I hated them cutting LSH initially, I've come around to it. We know people can come back to life through R'hllor's priests, but as a viewer the effect is diluted if we see it too often... and we know there's a certain someone that will need to receive that resurrection magic sooner or later.

> So yeah, this show is really starting to blow. And truthfully, the main person I blame is Martin, who can't finish these books and give these nimrods the proper directions.

I don't blame you. This has been a questionable season, but I've been looking at the silver linings with the hope that when we look at the season as a whole most of it will make sense. And I honestly believe it will. But, with just how many threads there are in AFFC and ADoD I think it's fair to try and cut the showrunners some slack in trying to compress such a monster series.

>> Having him win the loyalty of the tribes of the North and
>take back Deepwood Motte would have been kind of cool

The first part doesn't need to be shown. It's never shown in the book either. A re-taking about Deepwood Motte could be shown and might even have made a decent battle episode that the have once a season. It would re-introduce Asha/Yara, who they've completely forgotten about. Shit, ALL of the Greyjoys besides Theon have been forgotten about, and they were a fairly important part of season 2. They haven't even bothered to kill of Balon, which is something that would have been REALLY easy to show or even just say.

Side note/possible spoilers/tin foil hat theory: There is this theory going around that Daario is really Euron Greyjoy in disguise, much of it informed by what's been said about Daario on the show. But considering they haven't even said the word "Euron" on the show, I doubt it.

>I agree that both would be awesome, and the Davos/Manderly
>scene is one of the best, most hopeful reveals in the entire
>series. But that would mean casting Manderly & co.,
>developing another location, working Davos' departure in the
>storyline, etc. It's a massive commitment to both the
>showrunners and the viewers to introduce new settings. I hear
>you, but it's just not feasible.

Eh, you could do it all indoors in castles, like they did with the Dreadfort last season. You wouldn't even have to show it that many times, just two or three episodes. One Davos arriving, second Davos in the Merman's court, and thrown into the dungeon, third is Davos and Manderly.

>Yup. Fucking brutal. There had to be a better way to handle
>Dorne than this Mr Bean chase shit. Casting is bad,
>choreography is bad, dialogue is bad. That's on the show
>through and through.

And if they're going to execute it this poorly, I'd rather they didn't even show it. Given the time to something else. They can think of other ways to get Jamie/Bronn out King's Landing. Shoot, have him interact with the Freys and the Tullys. Like the book.


>Agreed, it's a disappointing way to portray a great storyline
>in the books. But, to play devil's advocate, the way it's
>handled now makes it easier to understand for the (lowest
>common denominator) viewer, it keeps the storyline within
>characters we're already invested in and moves at a brisk
>pace. There was no way the Kettleblacks and some
>paranoia-driven adultery charge was gonna make any sense with
>a scene or two (if that) each episode. There are too many
>other arcs that need coverage too. But can we at least give
>them credit for giving Olenna more shine than in the books?

They get credit for the Queen of Thorns and that's it. I still think they could have pulled off the adultery thing. And I don't see why they couldn't have just sent Loras to Dragonstone. Again, it happens all off page/camera, and it works because it still isn't clear what, if anything, happened over there.


>> They've given Stannis' story the short shrift.
>
>I respectfully disagree; for me personally the scenes at the
>Wall have been some of the most interesting. Winning the
>tribes in the North would be great television, but ultimately
>unnecessary (since it's already established he has funding
>from the Iron Bank for Salladhor Saan's men). The lack of
>Yara is disappointing but understandable... looks like she'll
>be merged with Theon? Not even sure what her eventual role in
>the books will be, so she may be expendable.

I do like the stuff at the Wall, I will admit that. I meant more of the stuff once he leaves the Wall. And I don't understand having Mellisandre go with him, unless they really are playing the whole, "He has to sacrifice his daughter to win" thing. It also means that there's no one back at the Wall to bring Jon Snow back to life, which is something else all together.

>I think Davos will eventually play his same role, just not
>through Manderly. It's notable that Ramsay reiterated Theon's
>main "sin" to Sansa as a reminder to the viewer. It would be
>an incredible bit of redemption for Theon if he discloses her
>brothers aren't dead to Davos after the Battle of Ice. And it
>makes sense production-wise to combine several roles in Theon,
>who the viewer is already intimately familiar with.

This I can see happening. Especially with Martin's newfound love of Osha.


>And I can't defend Selmy's death. I get trying to shake
>things up for the book readers, but his death also means he
>plays no major role in the books either. Besides the fact the
>whole scene was really shittily done... the fight choreography
>has really fallen off a cliff this season.

See, and this is the problem with Martin taking so fucking long to write these things. We take it as indication that ____ character or _____ event can't really be important to the story, because, hey, if it was, it'd be in the show.

And honestly, I think they're putting the focus on the wrong things in Mereen. They've made it all about the Sons of the Harpy and the fighting pits, when the idea that the rest of the Slaver cities want her to fall is probably more interesting.

>Within the next episode or two, I think most people will come
>to understand that scene. People focus on Sansa, but it was
>just as much about Theon's development as it was hers (in the
>context of the show).

Which is fine, if they go anywhere with it. But, of course, now with Mance dead, I'm not really sure how that manifests itself. Unless it's that he helps Brienne. Or something.

>This has been the first I've heard about Sansa as LSH, and I
>like it, it makes sense. But although I hated them cutting
>LSH initially, I've come around to it. We know people can
>come back to life through R'hllor's priests, but as a viewer
>the effect is diluted if we see it too often... and we know
>there's a certain someone that will need to receive that
>resurrection magic sooner or later.

Which leads me to another issue with the series: it's overall fear of using the concept of magic. So far they acknowledge of it's: 1. Dragons, 2. White walkers, 3. Burn people to death. Otherwise, they seem to believe people won't take it seriously. Which is weird, because it's kind of an important part of the story.

>I don't blame you. This has been a questionable season, but
>I've been looking at the silver linings with the hope that
>when we look at the season as a whole most of it will make
>sense. And I honestly believe it will. But, with just how
>many threads there are in AFFC and ADoD I think it's fair to
>try and cut the showrunners some slack in trying to compress
>such a monster series.

I'm not asking for all of it or even most of it. Getting rid of Aegon/Jon Connington makes sense. Getting rid of Quentyn makes sense. Getting rid of Aeron, Victarion, and even Euron makes sense, even if I like the latter two as characters. It's the stuff they choose to focus instead of the stuff that's actual written about that's just bizarre and poorly done to me. I'd rather they didn't even bother at this point.

portions in the fourth and maybe fifth books are when reading the books became a complete and utter chore. So unbearable and torturous to read, which I think is mainly why I have a very limited memory of what went down in the written material. As poor as this season has been so far, it looks as if the show runners agree since the Sand Snakes have been largely ignored, at least to the extent they were written in the fourth book. I think they were in the fifth book heavily, but I could be wrong because I truly have no deep memory of the last two books.

I wonder what Martin thinks about their omission.

The Sand Snakes are mostly in A Feast For Crows. They only show up in one chapter of Dance With Dragons. But the Dorne storyline is one of the better parts of the AFFC. The Dornish are also important in Dance with the whole Quentyn Martell storyline, but that one has it's ups and downs.

You know, I've been re-reading the fourth and fifth books recently, and I feel like the AFFC gets unfairly shit on. Yeah, the Aeron chapters are a fucking drag. Victarion isn't that interesting. And the Brienne and Jamie storylines take a little while to get going. But by the end, the latter two are among the best parts of the book. And, especially in the Brienne story, they touch on a part of the story that the TV show almost completely ignores: the cost of war on the common people.

While the great houses are playing their Game of Thrones and fighting over the Iron Throne, the people are suffering, starving, and dying. It's partly why the High Sparrow becomes so popular. And it also shows that when Winter really does come across all of Westeros, everyone is screwed. While everyone has been fighting over the Iron Throne, no one has been preparing for Winter. No one has been growing and storing crops. A lot is made of the Lannister army essentially burning the fields of the Riverlands; I imagine it's the same everywhere. So the Seven Kingdoms are not going to be close to ready whenever the Long Winter REALLY begins and the White Walkers do breach the Wall and rain their terror on everyone.

I do agree that a lot of the fifth book is pretty tedious. The Dany story just isn't interesting. The Tyrion stuff only sort of. Most of the good stuff is with Jon and Theon/Reek.

But that last scene wasn't in the books at all, correct? I don't have any recollection of that going down at all. If so, interesting direction assuming Martin didn't divulge that for the books yet. Someone come in here at set me straight. The only plot I remember from the last two books is that Jon get murked.

They've completely diverged from the books unless...What direction does Martin go in? That ending was boss. I still feel that John will be the key to bringing the white walkers down. Lady Melisandre will probably be instrumental in that.

tonight since the suspense won't be there for his sake. I also have to think Martin was consulted about the choice the show runners made tonight. Very interesting all around. If I actually remembered what happened in the last two books, I'm sure I would be even more stunned.

Bran, Rickon and Lady Stoneheart.

>Lady Stoneheart.

If I'm not mistaken, the actress that played Caitlyn Stark mentioned that the showrunners told her that character wouldn't make an appearance on the show. That stinks, but if I remember correctly, she only made a brief appearance in one of the chapters, correct? I don't remember that character having any major action.

And looking at some threads on reddit, there's some interesting circumstantial evidence opening the door to her showing up in future seasons:

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/37qqe4/spoilers_all_in_light_of_the_hype_train_regarding/

they wrote back saying the shit had been massacred. Wildlings are eating their dead and it seems being regularly attack by wights and others. Night's Watchmen are stranded. Jon is preparing to head an expedition out there when he gets the pink letter.

John isn't the only one in possession of Valeryian steel. Doesn't Jaime have some as well?

Oathkeeper.

Will oathkeeper come back into play in a big way?

Since oathkeeper was originally Ice. I know Valyrian steel is supposed to be forged w magics. An ancestral sword like Ice may have some additional power.

There's the "other half" of Ice: it was turned into Oathkeeper and another sword for Joffrey. Don't know what happened to the second sword; it might have been buried with Joffrey.

Then there's Tryion dagger that was used by whoever tried to put Bran out of his misery in Book One. Don't know if Littlefinger has it, or Cat/Lady Stoneheart.

I believe Sam's father, Randyll Tarly, also has a Valaryian steel sword, but I may be wrong about that.

These are the ones we know the location of:

Heartsbane, the ancestral two-handed greatsword of House Tarly, currently in the possession of Lord Randyll Tarly.

Lady Forlorn, the ancestral sword of House Corbray, currently in the possession of Ser Lyn Corbray.

Longclaw, the ancestral Valyrian steel bastard sword of House Mormont. Currently in the possession of Jon Snow.

Nightfall, the ancestral blade of House Harlaw and currently wielded by Ser Harras Harlaw.

Oathkeeper, one of two Valyrian blades reforged by Tobho Mott from Ice. The blade was made for Ser Jaime Lannister, but he has given it to Brienne of Tarth for use in her quest to locate Sansa Stark. The blade was given its name, Oathkeeper, at that time.

Red Rain, the sword of House Drumm, which was stolen by them in a raid. Given the name and coloring, possibly the ancestral sword of House Reyne.

Widow's Wail, one of two Valyrian blades reforged by Tobho Mott from Ice. Following Joffrey Baratheon's death, ownership of Widow's Wail has presumably passed to his younger brother, Tommen.

The dagger with dragonbone hilt wielded by Bran Stark's failed assassin, and currently in the possession of Petyr Baelish.

Valyrian steel arakh owned by Caggo.

Valyrian steel axe reputedly possessed by House Celtigar.


There's another 7 with unknown whereabouts.

For the purposes of the book, besides the obvious ones (Longclaw, Oathkeeper, Widow's Wail, Tyrion's dagger) I'm also the one's in possession of Randyll Tarly, Lynn Cobray, and Harras Harlaw will come into play. I also imagine the Blackfyre sword will come into play at some point.

For the purposes of the TV show, I imagine the only ones that they ever refer to are Longclaw, Oathkeeper, and maybe it's twin sword. I figure they've forgotten about the dagger, especially since they've forgotten about that whole plot point.

Like how Melissandre put THREE leeches on Gendry. One for Robb, one for Joffrey, and one for BALON GREYJOY...

They even referenced the leeches earlier this season, but they're acting like there were only 2 and there hasn't been even a mention of Greyjoy in a few seasons now... that shit could've been taken care of in one sentence from Tywin sitting at his desk.

Asha Greyjoy?

Ghost's ass hadn't been seen in who knows how long before he just showed up to save Sam's ass.

Specifically Theon as its heir.

But like, they haven't even bothered to kill off Balon? That's indeed as easy as Davos telling Stannis what he's heard. And at this point, Stannis would be one of the few people it would apply to. Shoot, it would further show him that Mel's magic "works."

But yeah, no Balon since season 3 finale. No Asha/Yara since that one ep in Season 4.

...or have they abandonded that in the show too??....i can't remember seeing it

this is the type of divert from the books i wanted

i might be biased because this episode were all my fav characters Arya, Jon and Tyrion
but finally tyrion and daenrys talk
Arya gets going on her training
just waiting for her to leaner more hard lessons
and omg Jon
SO wasn't expecting that
do you guys think they will still kill him?
and it'll be the nights watch

i swore he was a goner in that scene in the courtyard
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

They've been building it up all season with Evil Olly, and it's the perfect way to end the season.... right after Cersei's walk of shame, making episode 10 the one to "break the internet"

Not completely, but it gets close. It's probably the best thing they've done on the show in a very long time. Possibly ever.

>do you guys think they will still kill him?
>and it'll be the nights watch

Yeah, they'll have to kill him now, or all the build-up will be pointless. However, there is no need for the Pink Letter anymore. No Maynce in Winterfell = the Bolton's (or whoever wrote the thing) not giving a fuck about Jon and the Night's Watch.


>but finally tyrion and daenrys talk

Both their scenes were very good. Still rather have Selmy alive though.

They gotta work on those other storylines
Divert from the books but in a good way
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

NOT new plotlines or tortures, lol.

Before this my favorite deviation was when Cersei and King Robert had those 'Our marriage suck and we are horrible people' conversations in Season 1...it gave you better insight on them as people and their relationship. Tyrion+Dany went down in a similar fashion, and the zombie attack doesn't change anything in the books...it just reminds the audience what is at stake.

>They gotta work on those other storylines
>Divert from the books but in a good way
>~~~~
>When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so
>that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
>~~~~
>You cannot hate people for their own good.

>NOT new plotlines or tortures, lol.
>
>Before this my favorite deviation was when Cersei and King
>Robert had those 'Our marriage suck and we are horrible
>people' conversations in Season 1...it gave you better insight
>on them as people and their relationship. Tyrion+Dany went
>down in a similar fashion, and the zombie attack doesn't
>change anything in the books...it just reminds the audience
>what is at stake.
>
>>They gotta work on those other storylines
>>Divert from the books but in a good way
>>~~~~
>>When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so
>>that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
>>~~~~
>>You cannot hate people for their own good.
>


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Yeah, the scene in the arena was dope. Everything that proceeded it sucked. And they managed to ruin Stannis is a character. Forever. Morons.

I doubt this plot point went down without Martin's consent, at the very least.

Even with the "Oh, it's a major plot point that she gets burned" (if it even actually does happen it the book) that Benioff has been saying, there's no indication that Stannis is the one who does the burning. Shoot, in the book, they're hundreds of miles apart right now. There's no indication that Stannis is even really **alive** anymore in the Books (the Pink Letter could indeed be real, for all we know).

And, anyway, I doubt Benioff and Weiss are getting Martin's "permission" to do anything with the show. Martin has disavowed all the additional rape scenes. I do think he wouldn't necessarily have Stannis burn his own child. They've set the groundwork anyway for the North disapproving of him making sacrifices to the Red God, even in cases where it's "justified" (burning the cannibals at the stake before the Battle of Winterfell). Having him go back and burn his own daughter would be literary overkill.

it's absolutely a major plot point via Martin. And the way Weiss described, it sounds like it's going to be Stannis' downfall. Not sure you can pin this one on the show.


I actually was a bit disappointed with the arena scene myself. IIRC, Drogon arrives completely unannounced, while the pit fighters are still battling. There were no Sons of the Harpy causing chaos, it was Drogon wrecking shit. The way it was done on show was telegraphed, but I wish it had been more of a surprise.


That being said, I prescribe to the theory (probably incorrectly though) that Daenerys is eventually going to do a full heel turn. And I'm hoping this scene was to create the necessary misdirection to make that turn even more impactful. One can only hope...

It may be a plot point in the book that she gets burned at the stake in the book, but there's no indication that it's Stannis who does it.

And yeah, the Drogon attack was telegraphed, but I liked the results, even if her flying off looked kind of fake at the end.

Melisandre suggested it early on, and Stannis refused to consider it. Selyse has been in his ear about R'hllor forever and a day, and Stannis ignored her. He's in a forced march, there's no turning back, winter is steepening, and now their supply lines and transport are burnt to a crisp. He's at the absolute bottom of the barrel here. It's a despicable action, yes, but narratively it makes absolute sense.


I mean, I get that you're displeased with the differences between the two mediums and that's fine, we can agree here and there or agree to disagree. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise.

But you're applying a double standard here when saying "oh they *almost* made up for their mistakes" then saying "oh they fucked it all up again." In your other post you're talking about incorporating Deepwood Motte (which has zero relevance to the viewer) then when we see WHY they diverged from the books (sometimes in a spectacular way) D&D still get shit on? Yes, they have to diverge from the books but when they do at least they're putting it towards making the *show* better. For the times they fuck up, they do deserve credit when they kill it.

And now your point is "well, fine, if Shireen gets burned in the books... but it's not STANNIS that did it!" You're on such a witch hunt to wreck the show in any possible way you're ignoring the fact that it was such an incredible sequence. You're unable to analyze the show on its own merits then evaluate it vs the books.

As a viewer, when Stannis sat with Shireen we're hearing everything he's implying, hoping it's not all true even though there's been echoes of this all season... then sitting there in as much disbelief as Selyse as we realize it is ACTUALLY HAPPENING. I don't know about anyone else, but it was a stunning bit of storytelling. Since book readers were just in the dark as everyone else, I felt the shock of the scene almost as deep as I'm sure non-book readers felt with Ned's death or The Red Wedding. I was hoping Davos was gonna swoop in outta nowhere, or Selyse breaks free and fries herself in saving Shireen. My head knew it was gonna happen but my heart was still hoping.

Being so disgusted with the entire episode just based on how you *think* the show is going instead of how it's *actually* going is kind of disappointing, honestly. You're clearly one of the best posters on here on ASOIAF but the negativity is such a bummer.

I mean, I actually thought they made niceleaps in salvaging DORNE of all things... now all we need is Jaime burning the letter and I'd be fine with it.

...I was being tongue-in-cheek with the "They almost made up for it" comment. Like I said there, the parts that stunk still and continue to stink. So the "And... They ruined it again" is a similarly tongue-in-cheek follow-up.

So, to address your first point: yes, Stannis of the TV series doing this completely makes sense. They've been building to it since Season 2 even, before they ever showed or even mentioned Shireen. But that it still ruins the Stannis character (the TV version) for me. Lots of their awful changes make narrative sense in the context of the show, but that doesn't mean they aren't awful choices.

And yes, in the books, it does make a difference if Stannis is the one who burns his daughter or it's Melisandre or Selyse or some other Queen's men who does it. Especially in regard to Stannis' character (in the books).

I've been pretty clear how much I really don't like this season at all. It's crappy from the book perspective, and largely crappy from a TV story-telling perspective. If they turn it around, I'll say so.

As a side note, I don't even know if they can do Jamie burning Cersei's letter. They missed the opportunity to set it up by not having Cersei ask Qyburn to send it when he visited last episode. I don't know narratively if they can fit in her sending the letter, Jamie receiving it and buring it, and her doing the walk of shame.

> ...I was being tongue-in-cheek with the "They almost made up for it" comment. Like I said there, the parts that stunk still and continue to stink. So the "And... They ruined it again" is a similarly tongue-in-cheek follow-up.

Doesn't change the tenor of my post though. I didn't want to go back and forth with you on the production logistics of incorporating Deepwood Motte or creating a new locale for White Harbor or incorporating killing Frey's or whatever in the other post. There are going to be changes, there have to be compromises, we have to acknowledge that. It's just contradictory when you bemoan divergences in one episode then praise divergences in another. The season has to be seen as a whole to really understand why they allocated resources the way they did.

> Lots of their awful changes make narrative sense in the context of the show, but that doesn't mean they aren't awful choices.

This is what I'm talking about when you can't divest your knowledge of the books from your analysis on the show. How is it an awful narrative "choice" unless you're leveraging your book knowledge? Based on show only, Stannis is a grim character. Burning random people for R'hllor when we first meet him. Shadow baby killing brother. Burning Mance for not bending the knee. Killing guards for dereliction of duty (if even that; they're in a blizzard in unfamiliar lands with no food and barely any shelter). This is Stannis' rockbottom scene. This is Sansa's wedding night and Tyrion's barrel voyage. Yes, we were built up to like Stannis but now we see why. Slow burn and all that.

> And yes, in the books, it does make a difference if Stannis is the one who burns his daughter or it's Melisandre or Selyse or some other Queen's men who does it. Especially in regard to Stannis' character (in the books).

You're awfully confident about this not knowing what happens in the actual books.

> It's crappy from the book perspective

Certain arcs yes, but other arcs have yet to play out.

> largely crappy from a TV story-telling perspective

Resounding disagreement. Other than the Dorne scenes (which are starting to come around), this has been a solid season. You could argue that it's the weakest of the series, then my counter would be it's based on the weakest books. Because really, Storm of Swords (and by association Seasons 3 and 4) stand tall above the rest.

> As a side note, I don't even know if they can do Jamie burning Cersei's letter. They missed the opportunity to set it up by not having Cersei ask Qyburn to send it when he visited last episode. I don't know narratively if they can fit in her sending the letter, Jamie receiving it and buring it, and her doing the walk of shame.

This is probably true. Hopefully they'll show some way of Jaime turning from Cersei, or else it would be a huge missed opportunity.


On a side note, I see you posting about the lack of Greyjoys this season, most notably Balon Greyjoy. It looks like they'll figure more prominently next season, so Show Narrative makes more sense if they mention Balon's death along with the whole of the Greyjoy storyline than as a throwaway line in a season where only Theon is relevant.

- Daggers in the Dark
- Arya kills Meryn Trant. Possibly wakes up blind.
- Dany in a strange land. Don't imagine there will be Quaithe, because she hasn't been mentioned since Season 2. But it'll be her in the desert, possibly meeting up with the new Khal
- Cersei's walk of shame. Probably with Robert Strong at the end.
- Littlefinger does something to get the witness against Loras and Margerey killed, getting them set free.
- Kevan Lannister shows up to take over for Cersei, him and Pycelle are killed by Varys, MIA since episode 4.

As for Stannis, the snowstorm stops, he marches on Winterfell... only to discover that the Northerners inside the castle how already rebelled and re-taken it from the Boltons, possibly killing Ramsay in the process. So Stannis burns his own daughter for nothing. And his sell-sword army abandons him, because they won't follow someone who burns his own daughter alive. Then he gets killed by Brienne as revenge for killing Renly.

>As for Stannis, the snowstorm stops, he marches on
>Winterfell... only to discover that the Northerners inside the
>castle how already rebelled and re-taken it from the Boltons,
>possibly killing Ramsay in the process. So Stannis burns his
>own daughter for nothing. And his sell-sword army abandons
>him, because they won't follow someone who burns his own
>daughter alive. Then he gets killed by Brienne as revenge for
>killing Renly.


Chekhov's gun still lingering in the air there...

I have to think the next episode coming up will have some heavy lifting, so I imagine the odds are slim that Theon gets rescued. I vaguely remember the exact circumstances behind the rescue mission, but I did remember liking that chapter because it redeemed such a despicable character. Gotta think Theon won't get rescued since that would mean Sansa would get rescued as well, which would be too quick of a resolution to that her storyline. Pretty screwed up how the Ironborn storyline got thrown to the side like that. Guess I could be wrong next week though; time will tell.


Just to refresh my memory, was it his sister that rescued him? I vaguely remember a team of women freeing him, almost ninja-like in terms of how they operated.

In the books, Jon & Melisandre sends Mance Rayder and his spearwives undercover to Wintefell to rescue "Arya"/Jeyne. They got Theon to help them, and help Theon and Jeyne escape. They turn up in Stannis' camp, where Asha is being held prisoner.

In the show, none of that is gonna happen. They've said from the beginning that Jon killed the real Mance, so he's not saving Sansa. I imagine the Northerners inside Winterfell, with Brienne, are going to rebel against the Boltons on their own, and Sansa will rule Winterfell. She'll probably send Theon, along with Davos, to find Bran and Rickon.

Stannis officially sold his soul and how fitting would it be for naught. I think the final scene will be Jon "taken" out by the Night's Watch possibly led by Olly. They have been foreshadowing that like a mother. I think Jon gets reborn by Melisandre when she arrives at Castle Black after fleeing Winterfell once Stannis is killed.

Mance and his spear wives

Mance wasn't killed in the books, they killed Rattleshirt in his place (from what I remember). He infiltrates Winterfell as a travelling singer (bc he had a nice singing voice) with an entourage of girls (his spear wives).

They help Theon and Jeyne (fake Arya) escape.

the Ironborn will come back Season 6 in a major way.

Based solely on the casting list, but "seeking pirate" is pretty obvious, haha

my thoughts/hopes:

-Cersei walk of shame
-Myrcella back in Kings landing
-(Hope)Arya catches a body
-(Hope)Theon gets some balls and kills Ramsey
-(hope)Final scene is Snow laying face down int he snow stabbed and what not

*mimics*
"We're going to change things from the books"


The ONE thing you could have changed
No no
You kill Jon anyways
Cowards
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

since the very beginning they've always said there are going to be divergences from the books, but the big story beats are going to be the same.

How are you going to get around killing Jon, lol

It was more nebulous in the books

Jon as a character was moving thing around in a big way at and north of the wall
Killing him extends the story up there into a muddled mess
Maybe leave way for other characters to take charge, maybe sir piggy
But meh I dont care about those characters that much


But here
George definitely left things a bit more open with his wolf being alive

I hate that the show completely dropped the ball on the wolves

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-snow-really-dead


This is actually the one thing they could have tweaked but no their changes were really gratuitous
Cowards
This change would have been a real risk and totally separated from the books
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

I wonder what Martin will do for the next book since the show went ahead with the whitewalker storylines. As miserable a read the last two books were for me, my curiosity is piqued in that regard. The show is a blessing and a curse for Martin since I'm certain he's gotten a huge bump in royalties as result of the show, yet he's put under pressure to an extent with how the show proceeded this season. Even if the drops the book before the next season, I doubt he'll catch up to the show, which hurts and helps him.

And they really could have skipped the first 7 episodes this season

It was bad in the books and bad here
Soooo Soooo slow
Still hoping George had a purpose other than experimenting w his audience and having too many characters to juggle

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

First of all, I'll say I don't have an issue with them "killing" Jon. That had to happen. They'd been building to it all season, and it's obviously a very important part of the book. And I don't care what Benioff, Weiss, and Harrington are all saying NOW, he's not permanently "dead." If nothing else, if he is dead forever then it's shitty storytelling. The whole point of the Hardhome ep is that all the jockeying for the Iron Throne means nothing, and the real important stuff is the White Walkers. If Jon is now dead, why would any of the viewers have a reason to care about the White Walker storyline? Who is going to carry it on? I like Davos, but no. Tormund is barely a character in the show. Melisandre? Please. I guess they could have Brienne bring Sansa and Theon to the Wall and have all of them deal with it, but I doubt it. It looks like they're more likely to seek out Bran and Rickon. Yeah, Jon's coming back. With his Direwolf.

Okay, the bad:

1. It bears repeating, but the Dorne storyline continued to be the most useless shit ever. And the "twist" was also stupid from a story perspective. So the Lannisters are just going to let Tristan serve on the council after the Alleria kills Mycella? They're not going to turn around and declare war on Dorne? Even before that point, every single beat of that story sucked. And then they made it worse.

2. The fucked off Briene's character. No way would she forsake her vows to Catelin to protect her daughters to go and enact her personal revenge on Stannis (though I'm not even sure Stannis is dead). But anyway, Brienne was given so little to do this season. And what she did do is completely out of character.

3. Okay, so Tyrion's new arc is him and Grey Worm and Missendei ruling Mereen. Um, why do we care about the city of Mereen now? Only reason it was even moderately important before is because Dany was there to keep the peace before she went back to conquer Westeros. What is there to care about now? Redeem Tyrion as ruler of a city? Kill time before Jorah and Daario come across Dany and the Dothraki? Um, yeah, don't care.

4. I'm sorry, it fucks up the dynamic of the Theon story if you replace Jeyne with Sansa. With Jeyne, it can be about Theon getting his metaphorical balls back. With Sansa... having a character that the viewers have come to care about raped so that Theon can become a "man" again just screws up the entire focus. Having Sansa lead the North to rebel against the Boltons would serve that story better.

The okay:

1. Sam heading to Oldtown was good. I can understand why they waited so long to do it to.

2. "Daggers in the Dark" worked very well as a scene.

3. Cersei's walk of shame was appropriately paiful. Excellent acting by Headey from the neck up; she was reportedly extremely pregnant when they finally got around to shooting that scene, so they digitally put her head on someone else's body. The introduction of Robert Strong worked too.

4. The Arya stuff had been a slog for most of the season, but the pay-off worked well.

That's all I got for now.

>First of all, I'll say I don't have an issue with them
>"killing" Jon. That had to happen. They'd been building to it
>all season, and it's obviously a very important part of the
>book. And I don't care what Benioff, Weiss, and Harrington are
>all saying NOW, he's not permanently "dead." If nothing else,
>if he is dead forever then it's shitty storytelling. The whole
>point of the Hardhome ep is that all the jockeying for the
>Iron Throne means nothing, and the real important stuff is the
>White Walkers. If Jon is now dead, why would any of the
>viewers have a reason to care about the White Walker
>storyline? Who is going to carry it on? I like Davos, but no.
>Tormund is barely a character in the show. Melisandre? Please.
>I guess they could have Brienne bring Sansa and Theon to the
>Wall and have all of them deal with it, but I doubt it. It
>looks like they're more likely to seek out Bran and Rickon.
>Yeah, Jon's coming back. With his Direwolf.



In the books yep
But not on tv
They've already so,d those dire wolves short and TV writers proved pretty weak writers when they did go off book
Sadly :(

>Okay, the bad:
>
>1. It bears repeating, but the Dorne storyline continued to be
>the most useless shit ever. And the "twist" was also stupid
>from a story perspective. So the Lannisters are just going to
>let Tristan serve on the council after the Alleria kills
>Mycella? They're not going to turn around and declare war on
>Dorne? Even before that point, every single beat of that story
>sucked. And then they made it worse.

Agreed
So much potential wasted


>2. The fucked off Briene's character. No way would she forsake
>her vows to Catelin to protect her daughters to go and enact
>her personal revenge on Stannis (though I'm not even sure
>Stannis is dead). But anyway, Brienne was given so little to
>do this season. And what she did do is completely out of
>character.


Agreed

>3. Okay, so Tyrion's new arc is him and Grey Worm and
>Missendei ruling Mereen. Um, why do we care about the city of
>Mereen now? Only reason it was even moderately important
>before is because Dany was there to keep the peace before she
>went back to conquer Westeros. What is there to care about
>now? Redeem Tyrion as ruler of a city? Kill time before Jorah
>and Daario come across Dany and the Dothraki? Um, yeah, don't
>care.

I don't but I do care a bit more watching than reading about it


>4. I'm sorry, it fucks up the dynamic of the Theon story if
>you replace Jeyne with Sansa. With Jeyne, it can be about
>Theon getting his metaphorical balls back. With Sansa...
>having a character that the viewers have come to care about
>raped so that Theon can become a "man" again just screws up
>the entire focus. Having Sansa lead the North to rebel against
>the Boltons would serve that story better.

Agreed
Truly empower the character


>The okay:
>
>1. Sam heading to Oldtown was good. I can understand why they
>waited so long to do it to.
>
>2. "Daggers in the Dark" worked very well as a scene.
>
>3. Cersei's walk of shame was appropriately paiful. Excellent
>acting by Headey from the neck up; she was reportedly
>extremely pregnant when they finally got around to shooting
>that scene, so they digitally put her head on someone else's
>body. The introduction of Robert Strong worked too.
>
>4. The Arya stuff had been a slog for most of the season, but
>the pay-off worked well.
>
>That's all I got for now.
>
>


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/the-game-of-thrones-book-symposium-a-spoiler-filled-discussion-of-the-season-finale-and-predictions-for-season-6/

I mean obviously Brienne wouldn't be the one to kill Stannis, but other than that, the result of the battle outside Winterfell seems plausible to have happened in the book as well. If so, RIP Stannis, he had a good run. Baratheons (inc. bastards) remaining: Shireen (!), Edric Storm and Gendry?

I really need book 6 to come out soon, I didn't think they were going to burn through pretty much all the good bits from AFFC & ADWD in 10 eps. I really want to know where Young Griff & Victarian fit in the big picture, and it looks like the show won't be providing answers to those plot lines.

http://deadline.com/2015/07/game-of-thrones-end-date-8-seasons-prequel-violence-criticism-1201488030/

‘Game Of Thrones’ Will Likely End After 8 Seasons; HBO Open To Prequel, Addresses Violence Criticism & Jon Snow’s Fate – TCA
by Nellie Andreeva
July 30, 2015 4:02pm

As Game Of Thrones films its sixth season, speculation continues about the end of the hit fantasy drama. Showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss had been quoted as saying that they’d envisioned the series to run for seven seasons. “Seven seasons and out was never the conversation,” said Michael Lombardo, president of HBO Programming, in his first solo executive session today at TCA. “The question is how much beyond (seven seasons) it will go.”

“David and Dan are feeling there’s probably two more years after Season 6, that’s what we’re looking at right now. We hope that they would change their mind, but that’s how they are feeling now.”

Would HBO consider extending the franchise with a prequel series? “We would be open to anything (Benioff and Weiss) want to do, there is enormous amount of storytelling in that world,” Lombardo said. But at that point, “the focus is on figuring out the next few years of the show.”

Lombardo also was asked to address the controversy over graphic content on the show, including much discussed rape scenes. “This show has had violence as part of its many threads from Episode 1,” he said, adding that “there are no two showrunners who are more careful not to overstep the line (than Benioff and Weiss)”.

Lombardo also put an end to the rampant speculation that Jon Snow (Kit Harington), who died in the Season 5 finale, may in fact not be dead.

“Dead is dead as dead as dead. He be dead. Yes. From everything I’ve seen, heard, read, Jon Snow is indeed dead,” he said.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/08/01/game-thrones-ian-mcshane

Game of Thrones casts Ian McShane in season 6 mystery role
Exclusive: Emmy winner returning to HBO on fantasy hit
BY JAMES HIBBERD
Posted August 1 2015 — 1:56 PM EDT

Huge Game of Thrones news: Ian McShane is coming to Westeros! The Emmy-winning British actor is joining Thrones season 6, EW has learned exclusively. The move returns the former Deadwood star to HBO for a role on the international fantasy sensation.

The show’s tight-lipped production will not reveal any details about McShane’s character, who’s coming on board for the most mysterious season yet. Thrones is preparing to dive headlong into narrative territory not yet revealed in author George R.R. Martin’s novels (and despite that opening sentence, McShane’s character could theoretically appear in Westeros or Essos or somewhere in between).

We can tell you, however, that sources say McShane has a relatively small amount of screen-time during the season, yet his character is of key importance.

McShane launched to American TV stardom by playing a mesmerizingly homicidal frontier kingpin Al Swearengen on Deadwood, then had roles in films Kung Fu Panda, Sexy Beast, Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides, John Wick and many others. His most recent regular TV gig was an arc on Showtime’s Ray Donovan.

While Thrones has a reputation for making stars of its enormous ensemble cast more than casting already widely known performers, McShane is easily one of the most recognizable actors to ever sign on with the series. Plus, fans of his work—especially on the artfully written Deadwood—can easily imagine the actor fitting in with Thrones’ lawless world and chewing on the show’s Emmy-nominated dialogue.

Thrones has started production on season 6 and is expected to return for 10 episodes next spring. Earlier this week, HBO’s programming president Michael Lombardo revealed that the network plans at least eight seasons of the show, a bump from the oft-reported seven season plan.

I could also see him being Euron. Actually, he'd be awesome as Euron, except for the fact he seems a little old for that part.

I'm honestly not seeing him as Victarion. McShane just seems to intelligent to pull off playing someone as dumb as Vic.

Seems like a perfect fit in that sense, really. That's why I'm guessing him instead of ol tongue-cutter. He'd do a great job with any of the Greyjoys tho.

Randyll got mentioned by name for the first time in years last season (by Stannis to Sam). He's important in the books, but not central. And he's got the proper hard-ass demeanor. He also has one of the few Valyrian steel blades known to be in existence, which, after last season, is bound to be important.

That makes sense. Per the Grantland link above, they're casting Randyll, his mom, sister(I'm guessing) and brother as well. Him having a Valyrian steel sword + being Sam's dad, I can see him being important. Plus didn't they say we were going to see the Reach and Highgarden coming up?

What's the current count on known Valyrian Steel swords? Tarly has Heartsbane, Brienne has Oathkeeper, Tommen has Widow's Wail, Jon has Longclaw. It's hinted that Aegon might have Blackfyre. No mention of Dark Sister, even though Bloodraven did possess it.

I googled and apparently House Corbray, one of the Vale houses, has one, Lady Forlorn.

Dude is busy these days, from the new Star Wars flick to this.

Didnt think i could get any more hype but with McShane and now this...