suave_bro and 3X. Anybody who has been in OkayActivist any amount of time knows that their "debates" have been intense, thought-provoking and oftentimes hilarious, to say the least.

On the SURFACE they may appear to be two brothers who are diametrically opposed to one another. One CONSERVATIVE brother, One MILITANT brother. Their differences are obvious because I think they both tend to wear their politics on their sleeves.(No offense to either.) But I venture to say that these brothers are far more ALIKE than they are DIFFERENT. Allow me to show and prove:

-They both hate the murder of Black children through abortion.
-Both view homosexuality as a perversion.
-Both have expressed that they don't trust White Liberals.
-Both dogged Fantasia out because of that stupid "Baby Mama" song.
-Neither one of them think a plane hit the Pentagon.
-Both of them will call you a "NEGRO" or "COON" at the drop of a hat.
-Both preach that black people need to improve our moral state.
-Education is very important to both of them.
-Both are some article posting maniacs.
-They both hate mindless, self-degrading hip-hop.
-They both obviously do a lot of reading.
-They both are lightning rods.
-Both had THE EXACT SAME RESPONSE on the Malcolm/Homosexual crap.

If memory serves me correctly, the majority of their arguments stem from conspiracy theory discussions, Cosby vs. Dyson, or political party foolishness.

Why is this topic Activist related? I think the "relationship" that these brothers have here in OkayActivist is a microcosm of the relationships of many Black folks here in the U.S. and really throught the diaspora. Here we have two well-spoken, well-read, well-educated, obviously passionate brothers, who have much in common, but this common ground is LOST by spending a bunch of time arguing over points that are minute when compared to the grand scheme of things. They both have said repeatedly that something has to be done about the state of Black people, and WE need to be the ones that do it. What would happen if their intelligence, passion, and love of our people were combined?

PEACE

(Has anyone else noticed the similarities...or is my theory crazy? I'm interested to see what type of response this post gets...and interested to see if either suave_bro or 3X respond.)

"well-spoken, well-read, well-educated"

i've never ever ever gotten that from his posts. EVER.

>"well-spoken, well-read, well-educated"

Just because he doesn't focus on punctuation very much when he is posting doesn't mean he isn't well spoken, he has read everything from "From Niggaz to Godz" to Thomas Sowell, and he has been talking about graduating college for months...

And let's not get sidetracked by trying to throw shots at people brother, lets deal with the ANALYSIS...

PEACE

in order to convey one's message.

You NEED to explain that part about eloquence not being a requirement in conveyance of knowledge to these other playschool scholars on okayplayer.

There are so many okayactivists who rely on pedantry as a rhetorical tactic.
Its pathetic and childish.

I STAY in the Freestyle board. But I do come through here when I get in my angry, "I'm sick of this crap" moods. But on your point on the black community, you're right. One of the greatest examples of that is Dr.King and Malcolm X. Both OBVIOUSLY wanted equal rights for African-Americans, but went about it in different ways. Peace versus any means neccessary. And a point that is lost on many, Muslim versus Christian. Your sig basically breaks it down. So many people want the same thing, but are convinced THEY have the answer and no one else. It's funny. In Black America, people have died for our freedom. But it seems in the quest for freedom, there exists a self-imposed autocracy. No one person has the answer. And in reality, it's a bigger issue than Black America. It's a world issue.

and I'm still waiting on you to get at me...PEACE.

y'all scared? (lol)

>But I venture to say that these brothers are far more ALIKE than they are DIFFERENT.

In a constructive spirit, I will make some suggestions about some of the challenges I'd love to see them (and others) address:

The first relates to matters of political philosophy. Developing a rational vision of and for the Black community will require ridding ourselves of obsolete and malign categories. This starts with a new thinking that is more inclusive of Black women and females in positions of authority. We (Black women) come with an entirely different kind of energy and points of view. IMHO this is critical in resurrecting a vision of hope and faith in the face of the spiritual nihilism and material decay in our inner cities. Also, guys like "suave_bro" and "3X" need to reassess their understanding of social and political equality, reconsider the meaning of freedom in a post-Civil Rights era, examine the implications of secularization for Black culture, politics, and social thought.

For example take the issue of equality. After the Supreme Court announced its 1954 decision in Brown v. Board of Education, Thurgood Marshall told the New York Times that, as a result of the decision, school segregation would be stamped out within five years, and all segregation within seven. The assumption reflected and reinforced an integrationist conception of racial equality that I see when I read some of "suave_bro's" messages. The integrationist idea was that the American racial system would be replaced with civil and political equality only through racial integration of schools, neighborhoods, and businesses, unlike the competing nationalist conception (3X). For decades the integrationist conception of racial equality has dominated the nationalist alternative. This is where I see the divide between "suave_bro" and "3X".

In my experience, skin color still determines life chances. Millions of Blacks continue to be excluded from American life: segregated residentially, educationally, and politically. Moreover, racial barriers show no signs of falling, and affirmative action is all but dead. We all need to rethink our identification of racial equality with integration, and reopen dialog about a sensible nationalist conception of racial equality. The divide between folks like "suave_bro" and "3X" does nothing but create barriers for Black folks to get together.

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<<<<----Sam Sharpe.

In the Deck:

*KEM*Common*Amp Fiddler*SEEK*Gregory Isaacs*Sly & the Family Stone*Tanya Morgan*

>In my experience, skin color still determines life chances.
>Millions of Blacks continue to be excluded from American life:
>segregated residentially, educationally, and politically.
>Moreover, racial barriers show no signs of falling, and
>affirmative action is all but dead. We all need to rethink our
>identification of racial equality with integration, and reopen
>dialog about a sensible nationalist conception of racial
>equality. The divide between folks like "suave_bro" and "3X"
>does nothing but create barriers for Black folks to get
>together.


~~~~
~fear is the mind-killer~

"downpresser man...yuh caan run/yuh caan bribe jah jah..." (c) peter tosh

yeah i'm here...http://www.myspace.com/omidele

No message

I'll tell you why...

His brand of conservatism is similar
to that of old timers in the Black
community who hearken back to an era
when the community was more cohesive
(before it was decimated by social
forces, reactionary policies, and drug
trafficking).

For example, if a young fool got outta
line, the next door neighbor was granted
permission to light the kid up -- not
just the parents. If a young dude wanted to
join a gang, the gang leader would be like,
"look, youngblood, I can tell this shit ain't
for you. Get ya ass back in school."

Suave don't give me the impression that he's
one of these puesdo-conservative blockheads
(like Expertise) that tows the party line; he ain't
an ideological conservative.

This dude makes us mad at times, but definitely
gives us real talk, whether we agree or disagree.

>I'll tell you why...
>
>His brand of conservatism is similar
>to that of old timers in the Black
>community who hearken back to an era
>when the community was more cohesive
>(before it was decimated by social
>forces, reactionary policies, and drug
>trafficking).
>
>For example, if a young fool got outta
>line, the next door neighbor was granted
>permission to light the kid up -- not
>just the parents. If a young dude wanted to
>join a gang, the gang leader would be like,
>"look, youngblood, I can tell this shit ain't
>for you. Get ya ass back in school."
>
>Suave don't give me the impression that he's
>one of these puesdo-conservative blockheads
>(like Expertise) that tows the party line; he ain't
>an ideological conservative.
>
>This dude makes us mad at times, but definitely
>gives us real talk, whether we agree or disagree.
>
>

... just like expertise. or do ya'll not pay attentionsomehow miss his consistent muslim bashing?

«SiG»
“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice."
-Qur’an 4:135

to be abrasive and sometimes rude.

I will say this, despite his displays
of political incorrectness, dude is
sick and tired of the apathy that is
plaguing our society, regarding getting
off one's ass and making a difference in
one's own life.

While I gravitate more towards the perspective
of how social forces shape one's destiny and
life chances, and how mechanisms must be put
into place to ensure everyone has a fair shot at
succeeding, Bro believes man must force him-
self to shape his own destiny (much like Sartre),
regardless of disadvantages.

There's room for both perspectives if we all could
just engage in a civil dialogue and listen to one
another, as well as to what we are attempting
convey to each other.

No message

excellent points on both posts.

i can't deal w/ suave's conclusion-jumping, for one.

but i agree with you.


~~~~
~fear is the mind-killer~

"downpresser man...yuh caan run/yuh caan bribe jah jah..." (c) peter tosh

yeah i'm here...http://www.myspace.com/omidele

the comparison of suave and 3X?

I'm trying to be less rigid
and more receptive to opinions
and ideas that I don't necessarily
agree with, as long as the individual
is genuinely concerned about social
change. Just because I differ with
someone on an issue doesn't always
mean their perspective is invalid
(sometimes it is, e.g., Foxnesn).

In the case of 3x and Suave Bro, it's
obvious they are polar opposites, in
terms of ideology and methodology. Bro
can downright work my nerves sometimes,
but there is one thing I'm certain of,
he is extremely concerned about the
plight of the black community. That's
fine with me.

Unlike Expertise, he doesn't appear to
be an ideological conservative, steeped
in classical Reaganism. Frankly, I don't
believe the man could give a damn about
any of that partisan rubbish.

He seems more like the kind of guy who
is disillusioned by countless, empty promises
made by mainstream liberals, and he sometimes
overemphasizes personal responsibility (not
always a bad thing).

I see no reason why the Bill Cosbys and Angela
Davis's of the black community cannot coexist,
so long as each is willing give the other the
opportunity to utilize their respective strategies
and methods for social change.

With that said, it's quite obvious there are crack-
pots out there who's agenda, masked within the facade
of goodwill, perpetuate this system of oppression,
and therefore, exacerbate the plight of oppressed
people. However, I don't believe Suave Bro can be
classified as such an individual.

However, they do have irreconciable differences.

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

.

As much as we bicker about the particulars, we are not that different.
Rules to post by :http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

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<<<<----Sam Sharpe.

In the Deck:

*KEM*Common*Amp Fiddler*SEEK*Gregory Isaacs*Sly & the Family Stone*Tanya Morgan*

And if so, WHY? Bloods and Crips can reconcile but 3X and suave_bro can't?

>And if so, WHY? Bloods and Crips can reconcile but 3X and
>suave_bro can't? The Bloods and Crips lasted only a short time. If you're caught wearing the wrong colors you will be shot. If that's reconciling then I'm never going to do anything to upset my fiance.

?

--------------------------------------------------------------
"Like, may the Force, like, be with you - ZOINKS!"

- Jedi padawan Sha'a Gi

Well I am from Chicago so I would assume that the difference between the Bloods and Crips are no bigger than GD's and Blackstones. I mean they argue over colors and "territory". If those folks were politically educated those superficial differences would diminish.

On the other hand, Suave and 3x have two fundamentally different approaches at looking at our problems. 3x looks at the global system of white supremacy as the cause of most of the world problems, while suave tends to look at and blame the victims of white supremacy for being victimized. I'm sure they can probably find a common ground in working together but they'd find that common ground from way different approaches.

*shrugs* just my speculation

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

the ONGOING CAUSES of our problems, maybe so...

>On the other hand, Suave and 3x have two fundamentally
>different approaches at looking at our problems. 3x looks at
>the global system of white supremacy as the cause of most of
>the world problems, while suave tends to look at and blame the
>victims of white supremacy for being victimized.

However their approaches to SOLVING the problems are oftentimes very similar: Strong families with fathers, get an education, stop the "baby mama" phenomenon, work hard, disdain for homosexuality, hard work, stop listening to demeaning music, better morals in Black communities, getting drug dealers out of our neighborhoods, etc.

3X's approach is "these Devils GOT us in this situation, and they are trying to KEEP us in this situation because they hate us regardless of whether they are Republicans or Democrats...just like the Devil has caused problems on this planet anywhere he goes...but eff the Devil, lets better ourselves in spite of his "influence", we need to fix our problems ourselves."

suave's approach is "yeah, White people have done some bad stuff to us with slavery, racism, etc...but we are not fulfilling the legacy of hard work that our grandparents and great-grandparents set for us who started Black Colleges, established thriving Black communities, etc. Let's stop using what white folks have DONE to us as an excuse to not WORK. Who care if they like us or not?"

Both approaches are basically WE HAVE TO FIX OUR OWN PROBLEMS. As a side note, I am going to go out on a limb...I don't think suave likes White folks any more than 3X does...keep in mind, this cat says he used to be a 5%er, how many times has he said that just a few years ago he didn't want to hear anything White folks had to say, and read his sig RIGHT NOW about how "white folks thoughts have no magical powers"...I take that to mean "Who cares what crackers THINK".

people, but that one preaches "I am somebody, Raise yourself up by your own bootstraps" and another preaches "I am because we are".

The main argument between those philosphies is the use of resources to get where we need to get as a people. It isn't even as complicated as wondering where we need to go cus essentially they agree on where we need to be, but without comprimise they aint gonna be able to get there together.


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<<<<----Sam Sharpe.

In the Deck:

*KEM*Common*Amp Fiddler*SEEK*Gregory Isaacs*Sly & the Family Stone*Tanya Morgan*

Family, education, etc are basics.
Politics and orientation to problems is what distinguish you.

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

Rules to post by :http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

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<<<<----Sam Sharpe.

In the Deck:

*KEM*Common*Amp Fiddler*SEEK*Gregory Isaacs*Sly & the Family Stone*Tanya Morgan*

in terms of finding solutions is via debate and not bi-lateral agreement.

I admit that sometimes, I argue from the point of view that I do not necessarily agree with, because this is the best way to highlight any flaws in the view that I do agree with.

We need the views of the left, centre and right (and even the irreverent?!) if we are to figure forth the most effective solutions.

1. I DON'T PLAY THE WHITE MAN'S GAME OF POLITICAL FOOTBALL (AKA LIBERL/DEMOCRAT VS CONSERVATIVE/REPUBLICAN). MALCOLM X WARNED US A LONG TIME AGO ABOUT PARTICIPATING IN SUCH NON-PRODUCTIVE WWF DEBATING. I'M ALL FOR INDEPENDENT THINKING WHICH DOESN'T EXIST IN PARTISAN POLITICAL RANTING.

2. I DON'T CO-SIGN SELF HATING NEGROES LIKE JESSE PETERSON AND DEBRA DICKERSON.

>1. I'M ALL FOR INDEPENDENT THINKING
>WHICH DOESN'T EXIST IN PARTISAN POLITICAL RANTING.
I'm sure from suave's standpoint he is thinking independently by not automatically falling in line with the Democratic party like so many of our people do.

>2. I DON'T CO-SIGN SELF HATING NEGROES LIKE JESSE PETERSON AND
>DEBRA DICKERSON.
I know for a fact that suave doesn't 100% cosign Jesse Lee Peterson, he appreciates the work with BOND he does, but we had had a discussion about Peterson some months ago, and suave said directly that Peterson was a little too "over the top" for his tastes. (I can't remember too much about what he thinks of Dickerson.)

Now keep in mind, I listed SEVERAL important views and personality traits that you two have IN COMMON, and you only named TWO differences that really aren't that big. Do the FEW overrule the MANY?

PEACE

This one's a classic! mayb even archive material.

----------------------Sig------------------------------------------
"you have always been and will always be tiresome as long as your goal is not productive thought but self-aggrandizement. I've never once read a positive or constructive comment out of your simplistic, black and white mind."
WheatToast spreading love on okayactivist

(who shall remain nameless) that said:

"suave_bro and 3X are alike because they are both CRAZY AS HELL"

While I don't agree with that sentiment, I did think it was FUNNY...

No message

black nationalism is rooted in social conservatism. preservation of the the community by any means necessary.

we butt heads on political issues and the fact that most of the problems we face as a community are to be blamed mostly on external forces, the words "personal responsibility" are cancerous/blasphemous to that individual.

That Pan-Africanist and Conservatives have alot in common. ALOT. I remember as a MILITANT kid in highschool having a conversation with a skinhead and we agreed on so much that it scared me.


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<<<<----Sam Sharpe.

In the Deck:

*KEM*Common*Amp Fiddler*SEEK*Gregory Isaacs*Sly & the Family Stone*Tanya Morgan*

Most militant blacks have more in common with right wing conservatives then they think. If you placed some neo-nazis in a room with members of the NOI and placed bags over their heads they would agree on so much. But as soon as you take the bags off they would be at each others throat. The same with miltants and black conservatives. We may agree on a lot but the differences however minute drive us apart. If everyone would realize that we all want the same thing. Which is the fredom to be who we are and to make the future better for our children the present would be so much better.

You have to substantiate a comparison between the NOI and Neo-Nazi's, that sound nothing more than a Hubert Humphrey argument in favor of liberalism.

To say there difference are minute and their similarities are more similar, then you have to run down some core values.

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

Malachi - you are truly a provoker of thought.

Thank you...I try

--------------------------------------------------------------
"Like, may the Force, like, be with you - ZOINKS!"

- Jedi padawan Sha'a Gi

www.northernarc.net
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<<<<----Sam Sharpe.

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