Is there something about Caribbean life or "upbringing" that breeds Pan Africanist thinking, or is it just coincidence? The more I read about great Pan Africanists, it hit me that many of them were/are of West Indian.

Marcus Mosiah Garvey--Jamaica
Henry Sylvester Williams--Trinidad
Edward Wilmot Blyden--St. Thomas or St. Kitts (I can't recall which)
Claude McCay--Jamaica
C. L. R. James--Trinidad

Malcolm X's mother was from Grenada, Louis Farrakhan's father was Jamaican and his mother was from St. Kitts; and keep in mind to that many other Black people here in the U.S. who were/are active in the movement are of West Indian descent.

Is this just coincidence?

FireBrand, where you at?

George Padmore (trini
Kwame Toure (trini)

But Pan African thought wasn't imported to the states, of course you have Dubois, but prior to him you had people like Henry mcneal Turner who was clearly Pan African, and you have so many others that are debatable. But even if you look at Garvey's movement, while most of the administration was jamaican... the millions of followers were mostly African American, so I wouldn't say it is anything specific about the the west indies. Maybe something having to do with proximity. How could the ideas of CLR James not rub off on "intellectuals" in such close proximity.

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

>George Padmore (trini
>Kwame Toure (trini)

>But even if you look at
>Garvey's movement, while most of the administration was
>jamaican... the millions of followers were mostly African
>American, so I wouldn't say it is anything specific about the
>the west indies.

I see what you are saying brother Jahi, but would you agree that it seems more brothers who were CATALYSTS for Pan African thinking were of Caribbean descent? I realize that the vast majority of Garvey's FOLLOWERS were African American(Malcolm's father was one of them)...but it seems like many LEADERS were West Indian.

>I see what you are saying brother Jahi, but would you agree that it
> seems more brothers who were CATALYSTS for Pan African thinking
>were of Caribbean descent? I realize that the vast majority of
>Garvey's FOLLOWERS were African American(Malcolm's father was one
> of them)...but it seems like many LEADERS were West Indian.

I can agree with that considering some of the biggest names in America were fighting more so for inclusion inside the belly of the beast, while in the west indies they were fighting for independence (major difference, inclusion v. independence). Also the scholars would have had to look at their situations much differently, while Martin Delaney was focused on repatriation, if you're Black in Trinidad you're not really worried about repatriating but how will you run your island, and to look outside the island to others islands and the continent would seem almost logical.


*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

>I can agree with that considering some of the biggest names in
>America were fighting more so for inclusion

There have been quite a few Black Leaders with "big names" here in the United States over the past several decades, but how many of these African American leaders would you consider to be Pan African in their thinking?
Du Bois? Malcolm? We can't really include brother Ture, because as we have already acknowledged, he was born in Trinidad...and early on in his "activist career", he was working toward "inclusion" as well with all the sit-ins and going on. It was a while later that he become a Black Nationalist, and later on a full-fledged Pan Africanist after he moved to the continent.

But most of the important organizations I can think of and writers are pan african in scope. I don't think too many mainstream "leaders" can declare themselve pan-africanist and still recieve establishment endorsements which many leaders seek. To be African-centered/afrocentric implies a pan-african orientation in my opinion.

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

The "leaders" I'm talking about are what you called the "biggest names" a few posts ago.

>But most of the important organizations I can think of and
>writers are pan african in scope.
Of course, but how many "regular" brothers and sisters know about Dr. Clarke? Sister Ani? Brother Baruti? Dr. Carruthers? Hardly any. As great as they are, as profound as their works have been and continue to be, they aren't considered "leaders" like average people view Jesse and Al "leaders".

>I don't think too many
>mainstream "leaders" can declare themselve pan-africanist and
>still recieve establishment endorsements which many leaders
>seek. To be African-centered/afrocentric implies a pan-african
>orientation in my opinion.
Precisely. If MLK had been influenced by Marcus Garvey as much as he was by Ghandi, he would have been killed WAAAAAAAY before '68. They would have got him long before the "I Have A Dream" speech...then again if he had been influence by Garvey, the content of that speech would have been vastly different anyway.

(BTW, every time I see your sig, I DIE laughing...)

>Of course, but how many "regular" brothers and sisters know about
> Dr. Clarke? Sister Ani? Brother Baruti? Dr. Carruthers? Hardly
>any. As great as they are, as profound as their works have been and
>continue to be, they aren't considered "leaders" like average
>people view Jesse and Al "leaders".

When Dr. carruthers had his funeral in Jan 2004, it was in one of those super churches that holds thousands... and trust me that place was packed, people standing in the back. People was there from all over the world, literally. So yeah, folks arent going to know him like they would know a Jesse, but the fact that Africans traveled throughout the world to be there just shows the impact he had. The thing is, their words will stay alive for years to come.

>Precisely. If MLK had been influenced by Marcus Garvey as much as
> he was by Ghandi, he would have been killed WAAAAAAAY before '68.
> They would have got him long before the "I Have A Dream"
>speech...then again if he had been influence by Garvey, the content
> of that speech would have been vastly different anyway.

MLK definitely wasnt a dummy, I would assume he knowledgable about Garvey, but he played a particular role (a necessary one) and he was confined to what he could and couldn't say. But reading Kwame Toure's auto bio he said that him and King did not agree one bit, the goal was Black power, the tactics and strategies just different.

>(BTW, every time I see your sig, I DIE laughing...)

That's my favorite martin episode, I have to get it one DVD if it ever comes out. Did you peep the dance he did?


*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

*pops collar*
And he was one of the first Blacks to go to the University of Texas School of Law. My pop's attorney (a brother who graduated from UT) speaks about Dr. Carruthers with much reverence.

>So yeah, folks arent
>going to know him like they would know a Jesse, but the fact
>that Africans traveled throughout the world to be there just
>shows the impact he had. The thing is, their words will stay
>alive for years to come.
I agree...I hope you didn't get the impression that I was saying Dr. Carruthers and company were less "important" because they have less "celebrity".


>MLK definitely wasnt a dummy, I would assume he knowledgable
>about Garvey, but he played a particular role (a necessary
>one) and he was confined to what he could and couldn't say.
>But reading Kwame Toure's auto bio he said that him and King
>did not agree one bit, the goal was Black power, the tactics
>and strategies just different.
You KNOW I'm not going to discredit Dr. King's work, but I am not convinced that his goal was Black Power. In my opinion, Martin was a dyed-in-the-wool integrationist...and he was willing to sacrifice the goal of Black Power for integration. Did he love Black people? Yes. Did he want Black Power? I ain't so sure. Many times he said that for Black people to achieve equality, we were dependent on the efforts of liberal Whites...and it irritates me that a brother with a mind as sharp as his would say stuff like "The American Negro is not an African". To me, words like that contribute to the "I AIN'T NO TREE-SWINGIN' AFFICAN!" foolish mentality that far too many of us have today.

He was born outside of Dallas in a little Black town his grandfather founded! Lol

If we look at the struggle as a process instead of something that happened in one isolated period in time, I don't think you can say that MKL's contribution takes away from anything but was necessary to even carry a level of conciousness until more militant Africans would emerge, he definitely could not say what he wanted, he'd have been shut down by the sclc before the gov't even got to him.

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

>But reading Kwame Toure's auto bio he said that him and King
>did not agree one bit, the goal was Black power, the tactics
>and strategies just different.

You mean "disagree"?

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

There is Pan Africanism in David Walker's Appeal... and some would call Alexander Crummell the father of Pan-Africanism.

He built his own ship!
*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

unfortunately I haven't read much on the subject of Pan Africanism, but I was wondering, since the times of slavery what is the ratio of successful uprisings and other fights for freedom between West Indians and African Americans?

...

Walter Rodney was born in in British Guyana.

A commemoration of Rodney and his vision will be taking place in Guyana from June 6 to the 14th. For more info, visit http://www.rodney25.org/.

.

J.A. Rogers (Jamaica)
Frantz Fanon (Martinique)
Aimé Césaire (Martinique)
Cyril Briggs (St. Kitts)
Garvey's wives, Amy Ashwood and Amy Jacques (Jamaica)

PEACE

http://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1967/black-power.htm

Relevant parts:

(from a letter James wrote to Stokely Carmichael) One of my most important and pregnant experiences is my experience both personal and otherwise of West Indians and people of West Indian origin who have made their way on the broad stage of Western civilization. Some of them I knew very well personally and others I have studied, am very familiar with their work, and have systematically added to my information and knowledge about them from people who knew them well. They are Marcus Garvey, George Padmore, Aimé Césaire, Frantz Fanon. These are West Indians who have played a role on the world political stage that is not even properly understood by their own people. One of the tasks I have set myself is to make people understand what these men have done and their significance in world politics. In a substantial respect I am one of them, although I have not played the concrete role that they have played: I say that I am one of them because it means that I understand the type very well. And you are one. I suspected it when I was reading some of your writings and having heard you I am absolutely certain of it.

And:

Now you notice that Booker T. Washington was from the South of the United States. W.E.B. Du Bois was South and North, everywhere, and in the world outside: his was a universal mind. But the West Indians, Garvey, Césaire, Padmore and Fanon, all worked abroad, away from home, and much of their work, in fact most of it, was concerned with Africa. And taking advantage of this immense political experience which has been accumulated, and the advanced stage of American society, we find that it is in the United States that the Negro struggle has advanced and is now taken to the highest peak it has ever reached. For note that whereas the others on the whole concentrated on Africa and peoples of African descent, in the voice of Stokely we can hear that they are laying the basis of a mortal struggle to the death for what black people believe to be their rights.

but it is an interesting case of taking note of what you too are noting.

It is actually one of my long-term projects to think about the question you asked.

>but it is an interesting case of taking note of what you too
>are noting.

>It is actually one of my long-term projects to think about the
>question you asked.

I actually have been thinking about this for a few months now...and if you want to know the truth, what really got me thinking about it was a few months ago I was reading Shelby Steele (don't shoot me...lol) and he was talking about the determination of West Indian communities, especially in New York. I can't remember exactly what period of time he was referring to, but he made the point that all of the Black judges in the city of New York at that time were of West Indian heritage, and the same went for the majority of the highest ranking police officers in New York as well.

After reading that, it clicked. The same thing basically happened in the Pan Africanist movement. Caribbeans took the ball and RAN with it. I'm telling you, it HAS to be something with the West Indian family/social structure.

>After reading that, it clicked. The same thing basically
>happened in the Pan Africanist movement. Caribbeans took the
>ball and RAN with it. I'm telling you, it HAS to be something
>with the West Indian family/social structure.

As you continue thinking about this, let me know if you still connect the two (being police/judges & being leaders in the Pan Africanist movement). I think the immigrant success thing is different. My guess thus far for the Pan African thing has been that it has to do with the way living on an island can direct your focus outward while being American can direct your focus inward.

>I actually have been thinking about this for a few months
>now...and if you want to know the truth, what really got me
>thinking about it was a few months ago I was reading Shelby
>Steele

I meant Thomas Sowell...

.

I hate ComCast.

my Internet been on and off for 3 days.

I'ma come back to this.







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<<<<----Sam Sharpe. 3rd World people, remember where ya coming from!

I think the difference is nominal at best. Sure there were several rebellions on the Island of Jamaica alone. Sure there were leaders born out of Jamaica and other West Indian islands that have had a great impact since abolition of slavery and national indepdendance.

But see, that's what I feel is the key here: national independance. While Colonial and other European coroprations might have tore the heart out of many West Indian nations, they didn't run the Media.

They didn't have absolute power over the courts, and they certainly did not write the history books.

My future father in law was a civil rights organizer/worker in the 60's and he tells me shit I never can find in a book here in the state.s. It's impossible. He challenged me to find books on the shit he was talking about, and I couldn't- not even at the Auburn Avenue reseach library here in ATL (and that's saying sumin).


I said all that to say this. For every Garvey, there are 4 and five Reverend Tacky's and Reverend Sam Sharpes and Cudjoes in JA or Reverend Nat Turners and others here in the US that fought DURING slavery.

The movement for freedom was indeed a Pan Afrikan movement, IMO. I believe- althought I cannot support this at this time that Victories by Maroons in The American South inspired victories for Jamaican Marrons, and South American Maroons, etc.

They knew about what was going on, and the template was the same virtually the world over. The Church and the infrastrutre of pastors and stewardship was VITAL in the construction and the disemminatino of Ideas.

I don't think this is any different in the west Indies than it is anywhere else.

And when you look to the situation of the Afrikan in America what I see is a situation where the very same fight was waged but there is just less information about it.

I mean- look at what they tried to do with Reverend Turner with William Styron's book! If brothers like Dr. Clarke had not responded (and still, how many read the response book?) what would have become of the man's leagacy?

*eh*


But I'm ranting.

If you ask me why Ethiopianism and Pan Africanism was so strong- I think you have to understand the Nature of Slavery in the Indies.

In the states it was more profitable to breed slaves. Not so in the Indies. They simply worked us to death over there. Not many slaves lasted more than 6 years. some lasted as long as 13. What this meant was that new additions of Afrikan slaves from the continent were added periodically.

Afrikan values where kept in tune by groups in colonies like Jamaica b y groups such as the Comorantees, Cimarrons, Ashanti, Marooons.


You have to understand that the numbers and the resources were also different in the WI. Mulattoes were put in positions of relative power, and allowed to be lawyers, journalists, skilled workers etc...

so u gotta see that these things combined meant a different reality.


Sure u had some black slave holders in the US, sure there was a black elite- but not like the WI.


But that don't mean that the leaders here are any different than WI leaders. Our leaders just aint get killed or jailed like: Medgar Evers, MLK, Brother Shabazz.

There had to be a different TYPE of movement here in many regards due to that shit.

My Future father in law told me that they planned for folk getting killed or Jailed. It was part of the deal. He said " Nothing happened til someone got killed". They would actually have to plan for this to happen cus it was inevitable.

The dominance of the European agenda here was so powerful in bashing the Afrikan spirit.

And still, we rise.

I could ramble on and on. It's mad late.

I can't believe I missed this convo. Most likey my computer will be out in the morning again so...*shrugs*






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<<<<----Sam Sharpe. 3rd World people, remember where ya coming from!

Htp....


I can see the connection with the West Indies. I think alot of that mindset comes from the fact that in the West Indies the Afrakans brought there have held onto alot of our cultural beliefs and religions from the continent. The mental breakdown with the amerikkkas through slavery, education, etc. has taken to a place in our minds where we don't even see ourselves as being Afrakan. Those indiviuals realized that the ties that bind us together no matter belief system or not is the melanin within our skin.

Lets reconnect here and abroard because without UNITY destrcution will continue to provade in our lives.

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<<<<----Sam Sharpe. 3rd World people, remember where ya coming from!

but this party is over lol....

Nah, i think we exhausted the subject. I'm sure we can take a more rigorous approach at looking at the ideas of said thinkers and then looking at the conditions in which they found themselves. But the idea that you have a group of people meeting in 1900 throughout the islands and the U.S. shows a shared consciousness.

Any suggestions on opening the conversation up wider?

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

Have been marginalized to the point to where noone knows about them. I know that if kween and Solarus aint put me on I would still think that African Americans barely fought.

But that's just not true.

I'd like to talk about the shared consciouness and the ways we were able to communicate these values.


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<<<<----Sam Sharpe. 3rd World people, remember where ya coming from!

and they're not inappropriate to discuss within this post, but I also hope you see the way in which you're straying a bit from Malachi's original interest. He's not simply interested in the differences between struggles in different parts of the black world: he's interested in Pan-African leadership, that is, leadership of struggle on an international and inter-regional (world regions, that is) basis.

I wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that he was downplaying the struggle in America, because he has in no way tried to make it seem like there has been less struggle there. He's interested in why West Indians have (apparently? perhaps? possibly?) played more of a role from a Pan-African perspective.

I don't know what kind of affects it had in other parts of the carribean (assuming great) but in America you find the haitian revolution mentioned in so many of the text of the Black writers back then, I think it let "Diasporans" know there was a unified struggle.

Denmark Vesey's revolt included them getting boats and escaping to Haiti. Even during the missouri compromise many of the northern senators was using the Haitian revolution as a reason to stop slavery. David Walker in his appeal mentioned haiti, Hosea Easton did a study etc... but I think you'd have had to live in a very remote place in america to have not been black and have some kind of sembalance to what happened there.

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

>I don't know what kind of affects it had in other parts of
>the carribean (assuming great)

Huge!

>I wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that he was downplaying
>the struggle in America, because he has in no way tried to
>make it seem like there has been less struggle there. He's
>interested in why West Indians have (apparently? perhaps?
>possibly?) played more of a role from a Pan-African
>perspective.

I appreciate immensely the work that African-American leaders have done, and I fully realize the sacrifices that these brothers and sisters made. You can't put a value on the work of Vernon Johns, Martin Luther King, Ralph Abernathy, Medgar Evers, the SCLC, SNCC, etc. These folks were all essential to the movement. ESSENTIAL. We all owe the freedom that we have to these people and the individuals who were willing to put their ideas in motion. I am FROM Mississippi. My grandparents, parents, aunts and uncles have told me all kinds of stories from their 1st-hand viewpoints of the civil rights movement. My mother (who grew up in Jackson) remembers vividly the day after Medgar Evers was shot and killed. These people put in countless hours for the betterment of Black people IN AMERICA, and some gave the supreme sacrifice. I am not downplaying their importance one iota...but I can't say they were Pan-Africanist in their thinking either.

gotta mention Bayard Rustin, who was one of the most influential behind the scenes folks in the US civil rights movement and a large broker in general peace movement. MLK Jr. was probably more influenced by Rustin's take on Gandhian philosphies than Gandhi himself. In addition to spending time in India, Rustin spent earlier years doing non-violent development work in Africa, Ghana specifically. and although he may not be classified as a pan-africanist, his global outlook maybe even transcends that.

Ralphe Bunche is another person that comes to mind... i think in general many african-americans' connections to other cultures and the continent in particular are always downplayed as time goes by. while the connections are not always made through pan-africanist ideals, the influence was still there.

I was talking about how the Pan African struggle world wide coordinated and otherwise have been muted.

Why there is no mention of this in history and in the media.

That was my point. My bad for not articulating it better.


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<<<<----Sam Sharpe. 3rd World people, remember where ya coming from!

My Mantra when dealing with White folks:

When you are playing with a dog, do not ever forget to keep a stick within reach

Akan Proverb

of moderating this place...

>Is there something about Caribbean life or "upbringing" that
>breeds Pan Africanist thinking, or is it just coincidence?
>The more I read about great Pan Africanists, it hit me that
>many of them were/are of West Indian.
>
>Marcus Mosiah Garvey--Jamaica
>Henry Sylvester Williams--Trinidad
>Edward Wilmot Blyden--St. Thomas or St. Kitts (I can't recall
>which)
>Claude McCay--Jamaica
>C. L. R. James--Trinidad
>
>Malcolm X's mother was from Grenada, Louis Farrakhan's father
>was Jamaican and his mother was from St. Kitts; and keep in
>mind to that many other Black people here in the U.S. who
>were/are active in the movement are of West Indian descent.
>
>Is this just coincidence?

It might be, especially given the political and cultural climate of the west indies in 2005.

But going with your idea, what you do have in many cases, is that "foreign" negros on American soil, benefit from their foreigness. It offsets their "blackness".

The British system educates black folks better. (and even when you aren't educated there - chances are your parents are familiar with how things are supposed to be)

That allows them to excel over Blacks in the states.

Add in the funny accents, and that's some distance from a regular negro.

What plays into the pan-afrikanism, is the fact that most of the WI is not majority white like America is, and the islands are smaller.

Now you've got people growing up, fairly more educated than American blacks, seeing a sea of black and only specks of white - they could formulate a pan-afrikan idea with more ease than the typical Afro-American.

one
k. orr

>Now you've got people growing up, fairly more educated than
>American blacks, seeing a sea of black and only specks of
>white - they could formulate a pan-afrikan idea with more ease
>than the typical Afro-American.

?