>I don't mean to come in
>real late in this convo,
>but I didn't see the
>answer I was looking for....

Response: What answer were you looking for?

not
>to dismiss anyone's input in
>this subject, but I would
>like to share with all
>that read this, not my
>words, but words that come
>from encyclopedias and even certain
>religious books....this may help some
>to look at this issue
>of whether the tree being
>described could of been a
>cross, and not only that,
>but where the symbol of
>the cross came from:

Response: Sure no prob.
>
>The Imperial Bible-Dictionary:
>"The Greek word for cross, (stauros'),
>properly siginifed a stake, an
>upright pole, or piece of
>paling, on which anything might
>be hung, or which might
>be used in impaling (fencing
>in) a piece of ground...Even
>amongst the Romans the crux
>(from which our term for
>cross is derived) appears to
>have been originally an upright
>pole."

Response: This might be, but the pole only indicates the foundation of the cross.
>
>Perhaps this may do nothing for
>you, but if it doesn't,
>consider this next sources as
>regards to the cross that
>many hold dearly as the
>symbol of Christianity:
>
>Encyclopedia Brittanica:
>"Various objects, dating from periods long
>anterior to the Christian era,
>have been found, marked with
>crosses of different designs, in
>almost every part of the
>old world. India, Syria, Persia,
>and Egypt have all yielded
>numberless examples...The use of the
>cross as a religious symbol
>in pre-Christian times and among
>non-Christian peoples may probably be
>regarded as almost universal, and
>in very many cases it
>was connected with some form
>of nature worship."

Response: This is correct, the Persians were the first to use the cross historically. But it was also used in Phonenicia, Carthage and Egypt. The Persians believed that fire, water, and earth were sacred elements, and all customary methods of execution defiled the sacred element. So they invented the a method of cruxifying by impaling victims above the earth where they were left to die. Later cultures developed different methods of cruxifiction, and Rome employed several of them.
>
>A Short History of Sex Worship
>(1940):
>"Various figures of crosses are found
>everywhere on Egyptian monuments and
>tombs, and are considered by
>many authorities as symbolical either
>of the phallus or of
>coition."

Response: Good point, but were're talking about Roman Cruxifiction.

>(Phallus is known as a representation
>of the male sex organ,
>properly said)
>
>One more,
>An Expository Dictionary of New Testament
>Words:
>"The shape of the cross had
>its orgin in ancient Chaldea,
>and was used as the
>symbol of the god Tammuz
>(being in the shape of
>the mystic Tau, the initial
>of his name) in that
>country and in adjacent lands,
>including Egypt. By the middle
>of the 3rd century, A.D.,
>the churches had either departed
>from, or had travestied, certain
>doctrines of the Christian faith.
>In order to increase the
>prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical
>system, pagans were received into
>the churches apart from regeneration
>by faith, and were permitted
>largely to retain their pagan
>signs and symbols. Hence the
>Tau or T, in its
>most frequent form, with the
>cross-piece lowered, was adopted to
>stand for the cross of
>Christ."

Response: OK, this is good.
>
>What I get out of this
>is as much as there
>seems to be evidence that
>Christ was crucified, there is
>even more convincing evidence to
>show that he was hung
>or impaled on a upright
>stake and this symbol of
>the cross used by many
>churches today to be the
>symbol of Christianity may not
>have a pure meaning as
>some believe so. This is
>not meant to belittle anyone's
>faith, but rather, like myself,
>unbiased knowledge leads to conscientious
>decisions and beliefs.

Response: Yeah,but you left out a whole lot of things, heres some in some of the books of Josephus he states that Roman Governor of Syria, Quintictilius Varus, cruxified two thousand men by means of the cross. Also he says that Titus cruxified so many people in AD 70 that there was no wood left for the cross and no place to set them up.

Also the medical evidence states that Jesus must have been cruxified, first cruxificton is essentialy death by asphyxiation, as the intercostal and petoral muscles around the lung halt normal breathing while the body hangs in the "down" positon. One could not fake his death because they could'nt breath. The cross bar that Jesus arms were on was called the patibulum, and before the victim was raised in the air it was seperate from the vertical beam(this is the part refered to as the tree). The Romans used spikes five to seven inches long. They were driven through the median nerve. The largest nerve going out to the hand.

The reason asphxiaton took place is that it stresses the muscles and diaphram by putting the chest into the inhaled position; basically the only way to breath the individual must push up on his feet so the tension on the muscles would ease. In doing so the nail would tear through the foot. As the person slows down his breathing, he goes into what is called respiratory acidsis- the carbion dioxide in the blood is dissovled as carbonic acid, causing irregular heartbeat. This is why Jesus said into thy hands I commend my spirit because he knew the moment he was about to die. OF cardiac arrest.

Also Jesus would have sufferd hypovelemic shock.1) the heart rate goes up 2)the blood pressure drops causing fainting or collapse 3)the kidney stop producing urine to maintain what volume left 4) the person becomes very thristy. And there is evidence of this in the gospel account. Jesus was in hypovelemic shock on his walk to calvery as he staggered up the road to the execution carrying the vertical beam(patibulum) and Jesus collapsed. Later we read that Jesus said I thrist at which point a sip of vineger was offered to him. So I think its pretty clear Jesus was cruxified.
>
>Any questions or disagreements that would
>like to be presented, either
>reply back or e-mail me
>at rbaca@charter.net
>
>Loveout.