sooooo...

what do we call this new breed of hip hop artist and the music they're making?

is it...











couldnt be...












does that sound like...

















































SOUL?

sound like indulgence
sounds like cats with no allegiance
sounds like stuff cats that used to be into hip hop will start liking.

sounds like they trying to live out a fantasy.

don't help much that the music ain't all that either.

one
k. orr
subtract Lauryn from this cause she's a singer who sold out to rap.

I think Mr. Orr has inspired yet another article. I gotta give this cat royalties.

does hip hop pledge to these cats if they decide to stay on that side?

here today..gone tomorrow...

hip hop isnt what it was 10-15 years ago...sounds like you're holding on to a period long gone

And we on the block will remember, "when you gave the other style a test".

I would go into a same gender loving analogy, but the signal would be lost in the noise.

one
k. orr

>And we on the block will
>remember, "when you gave the
>other style a test".

life is truly not fair..take a group like naughty for instance...they've been loyal to the game since 91...but most people aint checkin for them...there's no love for you in hip hop, therefore there's no incentive to stick to it...some of these kids dont even own PE records, and wont buy em when they drop something new...your lifespan in hip hop tends to be only as long as your willing to sell your soul
>
>I would go into a same
>gender loving analogy, but the
>signal would be lost in
>the noise.
>

hmm..i see where you're going, but i dont wanna go down that road either



I seen a rainbow yesterday
But too many storms have come and gone
Leavin' a trace of not one God-given ray
Is it because my life is ten shades of grey
I pray all ten fade away
Seldom praise Him for the sunny days
And like His promise is true
Only my faith can undo
The many chances I blew
To bring my life to anew
Clear blue and unconditional skies
Have dried the tears from my eyes
No more lonely cries
My only bleedin' hope
Is for the folk who can't cope
Wit such an endurin' pain
That it keeps 'em in the pourin' rain
Who's to blame
For tootin' caine in your own vein
What a shame
You shoot and aim for someone else's brain
You claim the insane
And name this day and time
For fallin' prey to crime
I say the system got you victim to your own mind
Dreams are hopeless aspirations
In hopes of comin' true
Believe in yourself
The rest is up to me and you - Lisa "Left Eye" Lopes R.I.P

has cee-lo and mos' subject matter shifted as they shifted to music?

or would you say that they cover some subj in singing and others in mcing.

i think i could make a case for lauyrn...


-----------------------------------
Faith is a fine invention
For gentlemen who see,
But Microscopes are prudent
In an emergency!

"shifted to music"? What were they doing before?

Jay Smooth
WBAI 99.5 FM in NY
http://www.hiphopmusic.com

Trying is the first step towards failure. - Homer S.

he thinks it was noise :)

i was wondering that as i was typing...

next time i'll go with my gut and check the profile first...but that takes the fun out of a quick response...

decisions decisions

shifted to singing > shifted their style of music, except i f'd up.

but answer the question.


thrill = female, indeed.


-----------------------------------
Faith is a fine invention
For gentlemen who see,
But Microscopes are prudent
In an emergency!

just making sure..

uhh well hard to say for Mos because hasn't really shifted to the degree these other artists have..he's dabbled in singing but hasn't made it his starting position.

Cee-lo, i'd need to listen to the album a few more times. Someone else can probably answer this better than me. :)


Jay Smooth
WBAI 99.5 FM in NY
http://www.hiphopmusic.com

Trying is the first step towards failure. - Homer S.

________________________________________________

"i sample life when i write/ ask God... its cleared"-incogx



ak the verbalherbaliser.

hatin on folks who want to expand within the music they're doing...


listening to too much comercial radio...

>
>hatin on folks who want to
>expand within the music they're
>doing...
>
>
>listening to too much comercial radio...
>


_______________________________________
"...but with all music (created) by African people, there's a dangerous pattern. We create it, nurture it, elevate it and abandon it"
?uestlove ...things fall apart liner notes

"...we're moving into this electronica shit. If this is the case, then I've got to make some funky ass computers" D'Angelo 1998 XXL interview

"Of course, there's people getting rich selling horse manure, too. They're bagging that and selling it by the load, so I guess they figure, why wouldn't somebody sell music like that?" Raphael Saadiq May 10, 2000 Dallas Morning News

"the true way to judge is to peep history. once you have a grasp onto history, you can easily tell who's the shit and who's shit." - ?uestlove 9/14/2000 OkayArtist Discussion

.......................................

love sets the imagination on fire & also eventually chars the imagination into a harder element: imagination cannot match love; cannot plunge so deep or range so wide.
~ James Baldwin "Just Above My Head"

Everyone sees it differently but I'd say that Mos and Lauryn are just people with too much talent to be held strictly to MC-ing. They shine regardless. I mean after hearing Lauryn's voice you're going to tell her to stick to mic-rocking? Cee-Lo seemed like he would fit with the above but instead falls into the pit with Q-tip of MC's with big talent as MC's and a good ear for music that thought it would be just that easy to switch to singing songs. Doesn't work like that. And yes, this is a new breed we're seeing.

1,
BTW

But her heart is in singing, plus she came in the game trying to croon.

It's like if MJ played baseball first, but got his shine on playing basketball, but still really wants to play baseball.

Mos Def on the other hand....

one
k. orr

Hey orr. I have a few Q's for ya. Do you know much about Miles Davis or Herbie Hancock.. Would you consider them sellouts of jazz? And is there a different between rap and hip hop, and does something HAVE to have an emcee on it in order to be one of the two?

>Hey orr. I have a few
>Q's for ya. Do you
>know much about Miles Davis
>or Herbie Hancock.. Would you
>consider them sellouts of jazz?

I know who they are.
But since they ain't hip hop, I really have no reason to investigate their art. So the question is not applicable to me.

>And is there a different
>between rap and hip hop,

Hip Hop music does not always equal rap music. (dj premier in deep concentration is not a rap song, it is a hip hop song. Turntablism stuff isn't rap music, but it is hip hop music)

Rap music always equals hip hop music.

Music that contains rapping in it, is not necessarily rap music. (see sheryl crow, barenaked ladies)

And then there are the hard cases (Zach rapping on CIA vs Zach rapping with Rage), but cats don't want to deal with the easy ones, so we'll leave it at that.

>and does something HAVE to
>have an emcee on it
>in order to be one
>of the two?

See dj premier in above example.

But I see where you're going, and by that definition, since Mary J. Blige rapped on her first big single, that would make her music hip hop music.

What's the 411? Is that a hip hop song, or an R&B song?
Do we take into account that Mary J Blige is a singer first, mc a very very distant second?

one
k. orr

Maybe you guys should stop calling them hip-hop artists and rappers, and start calling them musicians. A musician is free to create what he or she feels. All of the labels and genres mean nothing. Musicians have been making many styles/types of music from day one. Aretha, Sam Cooke, and a host of others were gospel artist. You guys need to let people create and stop trying to box them in. Would you rather have Coolio raping over a Lakeside track or Lauryn on stage at the Metropolitan Opera House with a live band?

"Reverse psychology got'em scared to say when shit is whack,
for fear of being called a hater, imagine that! -Talib Kweli


My Essentials:
Prince
Meshell Ndegeocello
Stevie Wonder
Terence Trent D'Arby/Sananda Maitreya
Aretha Franklin
Public Enemy
Anita Baker
Marvin Gaye

Artists arent allowed to expand their horizons?

Oh how dare Cee Lo think of something else that he wants to do. How dare that man. How dare Mos Def want to explore different avenues in music styles. How dare he act.

This reminds me of ... when Sinatra they said "stick to singing" or "he is good in musicals"

and then he blows everyone away with "Manchurian Canidate" one of the ALL time classic films of all time.

and then what happened? All the Sinatra critics shut the eff up



Even if their first efforts arent that good they will grow and evolve and if they really want it something might come of it.


No artist should just stick to what people tell him. If more they should rebel when TOLD that.


Cee Lo has more exposure now than he ever did before with Closet Freak.


So he knows what the right thing is to do. And quite frankly it would be dumb to second guess himself and listen to what others say he should do. "Aw man you gotta stick to hip hop.

Now he has to tour off the record.


To me Music is music and always will be.

And if Cee Lo made a album with AL green Id buy it.
If Cee Lo did a country lp Id buy it.

I like daring artists...


Its what keeps music interesting.


Hip hop is an illusionary boundary where fans assume someone will stay in this "box" because you are listeners of them.






"If this van's a rockin its probably playing Dokken."-Maximum Exposure



dates n chitt:

Its the 2002 partial rundown


El-P-May 2002

Cody-Whenever 2002

Prince-whenever 2002

Raphael Saadiq-supposed to be may 2002

Q tip-Might not MAY be in 2030

FOLEY-TimeClock on Da Universe (It comes out when it drops, gonna stay in my sig til now. just check http://www.smartalecmusic.com for now.

I've heard Cee-Lo's record and all the chances he's taking he learned from his mama's record collection. Not exactly the kind of material worthy of applause to me. Recognition wise he improved with "Closet Freak" but that's where improvement ends.

I'm all for boundary expansion but if all you can do is tread another singer's water you're still putting me to sleep. And that goes double for the Qtip/Kamaal project.

1,
BTW

wow..after first listen of the cee lo album (which was today) i was thoroughly impressed...but then again, i've liked his approach to singing as well as his message behind his music since the soul food lp...

i dont know, in this age where studios cover up atrocious singing, and people who cant carry a tune in a bucket are mega pop stars, why are we now shitting on people who may not have the vocal range of a prince, but who approach it in their own way...i think cee lo and mos have good voices, and i dont mind hearing them croon on a track.

and they arent using everything in the book to cover it up and make it sound like they're marvin gaye...

are we saying that all of the singers back in the day had the best voices?..james brown..sam cooke..these people had very unique, distinct voices...but it doesnt make them bad...

I seen a rainbow yesterday
But too many storms have come and gone
Leavin' a trace of not one God-given ray
Is it because my life is ten shades of grey
I pray all ten fade away
Seldom praise Him for the sunny days
And like His promise is true
Only my faith can undo
The many chances I blew
To bring my life to anew
Clear blue and unconditional skies
Have dried the tears from my eyes
No more lonely cries
My only bleedin' hope
Is for the folk who can't cope
Wit such an endurin' pain
That it keeps 'em in the pourin' rain
Who's to blame
For tootin' caine in your own vein
What a shame
You shoot and aim for someone else's brain
You claim the insane
And name this day and time
For fallin' prey to crime
I say the system got you victim to your own mind
Dreams are hopeless aspirations
In hopes of comin' true
Believe in yourself
The rest is up to me and you - Lisa "Left Eye" Lopes R.I.P

i made a mistake...ive liked cee lo's singing since outkasts southernplayalistic album...from the beginning that voice grabbed me

I seen a rainbow yesterday
But too many storms have come and gone
Leavin' a trace of not one God-given ray
Is it because my life is ten shades of grey
I pray all ten fade away
Seldom praise Him for the sunny days
And like His promise is true
Only my faith can undo
The many chances I blew
To bring my life to anew
Clear blue and unconditional skies
Have dried the tears from my eyes
No more lonely cries
My only bleedin' hope
Is for the folk who can't cope
Wit such an endurin' pain
That it keeps 'em in the pourin' rain
Who's to blame
For tootin' caine in your own vein
What a shame
You shoot and aim for someone else's brain
You claim the insane
And name this day and time
For fallin' prey to crime
I say the system got you victim to your own mind
Dreams are hopeless aspirations
In hopes of comin' true
Believe in yourself
The rest is up to me and you - Lisa "Left Eye" Lopes R.I.P

that Cee-Lo is still giving us the kind of quality exhibited on "Git up, Git Out", entire "Soul Food" album, "Decisions, Decisions", "Beautiful Skin" or "Slum Beautiful"? Because I listened to the album all week and just didn't get that. Believe me I'm a fan but what's real is real and that record is average at best.

1,
BTW

before i can answer that..

first listens usually just give me a good or bad vibe...

i'll delve deeper and get back to you on that

> Believe me I'm a
>fan but what's real is
>real and that record is
>average at best.
>

Alright...

Don't expect a "Cee-Lo is the dopest" post.

My actual question(s):

Are you saying average at best amongst what is out right now?
If so...(insert further request for elaboration)

Are you saying average at best when compared to all albums in all genres?

What is your scope?

I am asking because calling something "average at best" as a cut-down needs elaboration IMO.

Jimaveli

Specific to this record but could be applied to others:
- More than half the tracks can and are skipped.
- Even the tracks that do get full run don't inspire.
- No songs to put on repeat (maybe "Relax" for those horns)
- Not up to the usual standards of this artist or others doing music similar.

1,
BTW

He probably did get his influences from record collections.

But then so did everybody else.

Cee Lo to me nobody has a solo record like him out now.

But this project is a STEP to where he wants to be as an artist.

Is it a perfect lp? No but by far it is a decent honest effort of a artist from Atlanta out of Dungeon Family. aND it was worth the wait.

Do I want more? Of course


Do I want a man to be forced to rhyme by his fans when his heart is not in it?

No that will make things ultimately for the worst.


as for Qtip see under "taking a new step"



Basically what it comes down to is sometimes the "shine" needs to be worked at more if they start a solo career transition later on in life like cee-lo or Q tip.

But they are so on the right track. Im afraid the ones on the wrong track are the ones not being able to grasp the concept of self expression through music medium.


So with that I say CEE Lo should make whatever record he TRULY wants to make in his heart.

And I will support it...






"If this van's a rockin its probably playing Dokken."-Maximum Exposure



dates n chitt:

Its the 2002 partial rundown


El-P-May 2002

Cody-Whenever 2002

Prince-whenever 2002

Raphael Saadiq-supposed to be may 2002

Q tip-Might not MAY be in 2030

FOLEY-TimeClock on Da Universe (It comes out when it drops, gonna stay in my sig til now. just check http://www.smartalecmusic.com for now.

Jef I agree with you whole-heartedly in theory but one more so-so album is not what I need in Spring 2002. But best believe I feel what you're saying and still have faith that Tip/Cee-Lo could do it right.

1,
BTW

i actually think its dope that these cats can look to older heads as their influences...i get so tired of hearing people say, oh my influences are rakim, run dmc, big daddy kane, doug e fresh..etc...

black music runs much deeper than just hip hop...and if thats the only thing people heard growing up, they missed out.

I seen a rainbow yesterday
But too many storms have come and gone
Leavin' a trace of not one God-given ray
Is it because my life is ten shades of grey
I pray all ten fade away
Seldom praise Him for the sunny days
And like His promise is true
Only my faith can undo
The many chances I blew
To bring my life to anew
Clear blue and unconditional skies
Have dried the tears from my eyes
No more lonely cries
My only bleedin' hope
Is for the folk who can't cope
Wit such an endurin' pain
That it keeps 'em in the pourin' rain
Who's to blame
For tootin' caine in your own vein
What a shame
You shoot and aim for someone else's brain
You claim the insane
And name this day and time
For fallin' prey to crime
I say the system got you victim to your own mind
Dreams are hopeless aspirations
In hopes of comin' true
Believe in yourself
The rest is up to me and you - Lisa "Left Eye" Lopes R.I.P

My post said let them create, dont box them in.

"Reverse psychology got'em scared to say when shit is whack,
for fear of being called a hater, imagine that! -Talib Kweli


My Essentials:
Prince
Meshell Ndegeocello
Stevie Wonder
Terence Trent D'Arby/Sananda Maitreya
Aretha Franklin
Public Enemy
Anita Baker
Marvin Gaye

but what they do best or are most noted for is what they will be labeled initially by

cee lo has 3 hip hop albums to his credit

mos has 2 hip hop lps and a host of guest appearances on other hip hop albums to his credit

lauryn has 2 hip hop albums (3 if you count that remix of the score album) and an R&B (for lack of a more accurate description) album to her credit

like it or not, these artists will go down in history as hip hop artists that stepped outside the "box" that you're talking about.

and i appreciate them for it...you act like i shitted on them for doing so.

I seen a rainbow yesterday
But too many storms have come and gone
Leavin' a trace of not one God-given ray
Is it because my life is ten shades of grey
I pray all ten fade away
Seldom praise Him for the sunny days
And like His promise is true
Only my faith can undo
The many chances I blew
To bring my life to anew
Clear blue and unconditional skies
Have dried the tears from my eyes
No more lonely cries
My only bleedin' hope
Is for the folk who can't cope
Wit such an endurin' pain
That it keeps 'em in the pourin' rain
Who's to blame
For tootin' caine in your own vein
What a shame
You shoot and aim for someone else's brain
You claim the insane
And name this day and time
For fallin' prey to crime
I say the system got you victim to your own mind
Dreams are hopeless aspirations
In hopes of comin' true
Believe in yourself
The rest is up to me and you - Lisa "Left Eye" Lopes R.I.P

>Maybe you guys should stop calling
>them hip-hop artists and rappers,
>and start calling them musicians.
> A musician is free
>to create what he or
>she feels. All of
>the labels and genres mean
>nothing. Musicians have been making
>many styles/types of music from
>day one. Aretha, Sam
>Cooke, and a host of
>others were gospel artist.
>You guys need to let
>people create and stop trying
>to box them in.
>Would you rather have Coolio
>raping over a Lakeside track
>or Lauryn on stage at
>the Metropolitan Opera House with
>a live band?
>

They are musicians first and foremost. All you nerdy fools want labels for errythang. But like Afu-Ra said 'Not in categories/that's the devils story'. This is Hip Hop MUSIC!!
MUSIC!!!!
MUSIC!!!!
How will music ever evolve if they aren't allowed to expand people!!

Take Tina Marie and Blondie. They were WHITE GIRLS rappin waaaay back in the day. Shit they had more skillz than most of these niggaz and backpackers today!!! But they're still great singers and musicians.

Ya'll nerds crrack me up.


Ain't that right WORLD WHISTLE!!!
ha haaaaa

Can't wait to meet that tall chics many lovely friends.
gracias amigo.

Oh god I'mma dawg.

that nullify your argument

>They are musicians first and foremost.
> All you nerdy fools
>want labels for errythang.
>But like Afu-Ra said 'Not
>in categories/that's the devils story'.
> This is Hip Hop
>MUSIC!!

can you please tell me what preceded the word MUSIC in the above sentence..

looks like a label to me.

>>
>looks like a label to me.
>


SHUT UP NERD!!!

"you got your asses beat. By a bunch of Gatdamn nerds....NERDS!!!!"-John Goodman in Revenge of the Nerds.

I wish spirit's Cee-Lo post from a few weeks back had been archived.

I really don't feel like going through this whole arguement again.


I see it like this:

I like Cee-Lo's album overall. I don't have beef with his music in itself, or even his singing.

My problem is that this seems to be a growing trend in Hip-Hop. There seems to be new this ideology espoused by the likes of Cee-Lo, Andre (3000), and others that rhyming is no longer expressive enough an artform for them.

To me, this just adds credibility to the old arguement that Hip-Hop is hardly a legitimate form of music, especially when some of our best lyricists decide that "rhymin' ain't enough."

Cee-Lo acts as if rhyming is now a prison to be broken out of...like he's doing it only out of obligation.

And that's how most of the fans seem to look at it, as well.
"why ya'll wanna box cee-lo in?"
"why can't he just do music?"
"the music is evolving...let it grow"
"just let him do his shit!"

And it seems like this idea keeps growing...I remember ?uest briefly mentioning something about an all-singing track on Common's next album. And then you have Gift of Gab singing on "Day One", as well as the rest of the vocalization all over that album.

Like both spirit and I mentioned last time around, you don't see fans of R&B clamoring for their favorite artists to expand their horizons by using Rap to evolve their artform, so why should it be the other way around?

Despite all of the record sales and pop culture popularity that Rap has nowadays, I still look at it as fighting for respect. And to me, all of this singing and "evolution" is setting how Hip-Hop is perceived back a bit.


__________________________________
sig.nificance.:
                  
                  
                  
                  

                  Ask my signature about 'Bulletproof Wallets: Director's Cut.'
<{1:20} 01. Intro[br />{3:23} 02. The Sun (featuring Raekwon, Slick Rick & The RZA)
{3:47} 03. Maxine
{3:07} 04. The Watch
{3:18} 05. Flowers {original}
(featuring Raekwon, Method Man & Superb)
{4:26} 06. Never Be The Same Again. (featuring Carl Thomas & Raekwon)
{1:04} 07. Teddy Skit
{3:09} 08. Theodore (featuring Trife & Twiz)
{4:11} 09. Ghost Showers
{3:06} 10. Strawberry (featuring Killah Sin)
{0:16} 11. Figure 8 Skit
{3:32} 12. The Forest {with bridge}
{4:09} 13. The Juks (featuring Trife & Superb)
{3:21} 14. Walking Through The Darkness (featuring Tekitha)
{0:55} 15. Jealousy
{3:15} 16. Good Times (featuring Raekwon & Superb)
{4:00} 17. The Hilton (featuring Raekwon)
{1:00} 18. Interlude
{3:40} 19. Love Session (featuring Ruff Endz)
{1:55} 20. Street Chemistry (featuring Prodical & Trife)



-HIDDEN TRACK-
At twenty-two years of age, I have a fateful stipulation
A choice between death and suspended animation
With death the suffering ends, no question
With life, I could turn it around in five sessions
If I could afford to pay, that is
Life wouldn't be hell
But for me there is no sliding scale
No see-saw or piggyback rides
No Peter Frampton, no free samples of Tide
But don't be fooled
I'm not as sad as I pretend to be
Save your sympathy
I'll probably lose my sanity before my virginity]

                  I do this for the backpackers
                  And the slackers
                  The nerdy no-pussy havin' computer hackers
                  - Fatlip

To me this also furthers the idea that Rap is strictly youth music, and once you grow up and mature, you're supposed to get into other types of music and leave Rap behind.

How the fuck could I forget Q-Tip?

The very one who stated in a magazine that Hip-Hop is dead.

And then there's John Forté.


And there's the other side of the crooning coin...cats like Nelly, Big Moe, Pretty Willie, and Ja Rule, who kick sing-songy flows that are easily accesible to radioheads (read: women).

These cats are mainly doing shit that's easy for people not into Hip-Hop to casually recite without twisting their tongues...but I look at it as all being part of the same movement away from actual 1,2 1,2 flowing.


Perhaps this is why I'm feeling Non-Phixion's album so hard right now. It's so far away from any of this shit.



__________________________________
sig.nificance.:
                  
                  
                  
                  

                  Ask my signature about 'Bulletproof Wallets: Director's Cut.'
<{1:20} 01. Intro[br />{3:23} 02. The Sun (featuring Raekwon, Slick Rick & The RZA)
{3:47} 03. Maxine
{3:07} 04. The Watch
{3:18} 05. Flowers {original}
(featuring Raekwon, Method Man & Superb)
{4:26} 06. Never Be The Same Again. (featuring Carl Thomas & Raekwon)
{1:04} 07. Teddy Skit
{3:09} 08. Theodore (featuring Trife & Twiz)
{4:11} 09. Ghost Showers
{3:06} 10. Strawberry (featuring Killah Sin)
{0:16} 11. Figure 8 Skit
{3:32} 12. The Forest {with bridge}
{4:09} 13. The Juks (featuring Trife & Superb)
{3:21} 14. Walking Through The Darkness (featuring Tekitha)
{0:55} 15. Jealousy
{3:15} 16. Good Times (featuring Raekwon & Superb)
{4:00} 17. The Hilton (featuring Raekwon)
{1:00} 18. Interlude
{3:40} 19. Love Session (featuring Ruff Endz)
{1:55} 20. Street Chemistry (featuring Prodical & Trife)



-HIDDEN TRACK-
At twenty-two years of age, I have a fateful stipulation
A choice between death and suspended animation
With death the suffering ends, no question
With life, I could turn it around in five sessions
If I could afford to pay, that is
Life wouldn't be hell
But for me there is no sliding scale
No see-saw or piggyback rides
No Peter Frampton, no free samples of Tide
But don't be fooled
I'm not as sad as I pretend to be
Save your sympathy
I'll probably lose my sanity before my virginity]

                  I do this for the backpackers
                  And the slackers
                  The nerdy no-pussy havin' computer hackers
                  - Fatlip

I think people entirely missed the point of Big Ole Words. :re
And since when was rapping synonymous with hip hop anyway????

I'm talking about rap music.

Sometimes I call it Rap, sometimes I call it Hip-Hop. Either way, I'm talking about the same thing.


But since you asked...I always thought that Rap was the musical form of expression of the Hip-Hop culture.

Has that now changed?

No. That's not true at all. Hip hop's musical origins actually revolve around the DJ. But that's beside the point. Clearly hip hop has (for lack of a better word) evolved since then. For an example of a "pure origins" old school hip hop record check Grandmaster Flash's "Adventures of Flash on the Wheels of Steel". Or for a whole album of "pure" hip hop check Q-Bert's "Demolition Pumpkin Squeeze Musiq" CD. Something can be hip hop without having any vocals on it whatsoever.

But even then, putting sampling as the "definition" of hip hop still leaves things incomplete. What about groups like The Roots who use live instruments? What I'm saying is.. placing strict definitions about what *is* and what *isn't* hip hop (or jazz or soul or rock) is ill advised.

People act like Cee Lo hasn't been singing all along. He did a mixture of singing and rapping even on the Goodie Mob albums and no one seemed to complain about it then - or question whether he was trying to sell out from hip hop.

Are you replying to me, or to the original post?

I'm not too concerned with the labeling or classification of certain artists as "hip-hop", "rap", "soul", "rap-soul", "neo-soul", "neo·geo", "neo from the matrix", or any of that shit.


What I'm talking about is rhyming vs. singing as a form of expression.

__________________________________
sig.nificance.:
                  
                  
                  
                  

                  Ask my signature about 'Bulletproof Wallets: Director's Cut.'
<{1:20} 01. Intro[br />{3:23} 02. The Sun (featuring Raekwon, Slick Rick & The RZA)
{3:47} 03. Maxine
{3:07} 04. The Watch
{3:18} 05. Flowers {original}
(featuring Raekwon, Method Man & Superb)
{4:26} 06. Never Be The Same Again. (featuring Carl Thomas & Raekwon)
{1:04} 07. Teddy Skit
{3:09} 08. Theodore (featuring Trife & Twiz)
{4:11} 09. Ghost Showers
{3:06} 10. Strawberry (featuring Killah Sin)
{0:16} 11. Figure 8 Skit
{3:32} 12. The Forest {with bridge}
{4:09} 13. The Juks (featuring Trife & Superb)
{3:21} 14. Walking Through The Darkness (featuring Tekitha)
{0:55} 15. Jealousy
{3:15} 16. Good Times (featuring Raekwon & Superb)
{4:00} 17. The Hilton (featuring Raekwon)
{1:00} 18. Interlude
{3:40} 19. Love Session (featuring Ruff Endz)
{1:55} 20. Street Chemistry (featuring Prodical & Trife)



-HIDDEN TRACK-
At twenty-two years of age, I have a fateful stipulation
A choice between death and suspended animation
With death the suffering ends, no question
With life, I could turn it around in five sessions
If I could afford to pay, that is
Life wouldn't be hell
But for me there is no sliding scale
No see-saw or piggyback rides
No Peter Frampton, no free samples of Tide
But don't be fooled
I'm not as sad as I pretend to be
Save your sympathy
I'll probably lose my sanity before my virginity]

                  I do this for the backpackers
                  And the slackers
                  The nerdy no-pussy havin' computer hackers
                  - Fatlip

I thought I read an interview somewhere where Cee-Lo said he was originally a singer and decided to become a rapper afterwards, so if that is true is it really a slight on Hip-Hop.

As for Mos Def, he's a legitimate actor too, so I'm not surprised he dabbles in all kinds of stuff.

I think one of the reasons Hip-Hop artist are on this singing kick is commercial radio. A lot Hip-Hop songs that get commercial urban radio play have sung choruses. Yeah, Jay-Z might drop a "Big Pimpin" or "H to the Izzo" but he doesn't count because he's so popular he in his own separate category.


I really think these guys think that in order to get heard by the largest amount of people they have to go R&B.

Shaun G.

that it is a prison in the sense that when these cats came up, in order to rap, you had to be hardcore, you had to be fresh, and most of all, you had to be emotionless.

hip hop and rap, especially in the 90's, and even in the 80's, was about braggadocio, being hard, being a killer, being better than the next man, playin the dozens..

can you imagine what would have happened if cee lo tried to sing back in 91..or mos back in 88...krs would have shitted on him (see p.m. dawn)

even when nas sang on AZ's give me, you had cats lookin at nas like WTF??????

so in that sense, there was a prison to be broken out of...these cats have probably been singing all of their lives...but they got their break in hip hop, and were talented at it...

now, they are breaking out of that prison that says, "hip hoppers are emotionless, hip hoppers are too hardcore to sing"...sure, there will be ingenuine followers, but the door has been opened by groups like FF, and bone, and now, these cats are expanding on it

I seen a rainbow yesterday
But too many storms have come and gone
Leavin' a trace of not one God-given ray
Is it because my life is ten shades of grey
I pray all ten fade away
Seldom praise Him for the sunny days
And like His promise is true
Only my faith can undo
The many chances I blew
To bring my life to anew
Clear blue and unconditional skies
Have dried the tears from my eyes
No more lonely cries
My only bleedin' hope
Is for the folk who can't cope
Wit such an endurin' pain
That it keeps 'em in the pourin' rain
Who's to blame
For tootin' caine in your own vein
What a shame
You shoot and aim for someone else's brain
You claim the insane
And name this day and time
For fallin' prey to crime
I say the system got you victim to your own mind
Dreams are hopeless aspirations
In hopes of comin' true
Believe in yourself
The rest is up to me and you - Lisa "Left Eye" Lopes R.I.P

>that it is a prison in
>the sense that when these
>cats came up, in order
>to rap, you had to
>be hardcore, you had to
>be fresh, and most of
>all, you had to be
>emotionless.
>
>hip hop and rap, especially in
>the 90's, and even in
>the 80's, was about braggadocio,
>being hard, being a killer,
>being better than the next
>man, playin the dozens..

I hear you there. But this isn't the late 80's or even the early 90's we're talking about now. Look at Cee-Lo's verse from "Guess Who"...or any of Pharoahe's verses from the Stress album. There's plenty of emotion there. Hip-Hop HAS evolved plenty without the use of singing. Maybe there WAS a proverbial prison of expression to be broken out of back in the days of which you speak. But NOW? In 2002? I think plenty of MC's have put down excellent examples of expansive emotional expression well beyond the hardcore braggadocio of old.

To me, it just seems like people are afraid to take rhyming to that next level...as if singing is the only way to express deep feeling.


And far as Nas goes...Nas just fucking sounds terrible singing. That's why he got/gets shitted on for it.


__________________________________
sig.nificance.:
                  
                  
                  
                  

                  Ask my signature about 'Bulletproof Wallets: Director's Cut.'
<{1:20} 01. Intro[br />{3:23} 02. The Sun (featuring Raekwon, Slick Rick & The RZA)
{3:47} 03. Maxine
{3:07} 04. The Watch
{3:18} 05. Flowers {original}
(featuring Raekwon, Method Man & Superb)
{4:26} 06. Never Be The Same Again. (featuring Carl Thomas & Raekwon)
{1:04} 07. Teddy Skit
{3:09} 08. Theodore (featuring Trife & Twiz)
{4:11} 09. Ghost Showers
{3:06} 10. Strawberry (featuring Killah Sin)
{0:16} 11. Figure 8 Skit
{3:32} 12. The Forest {with bridge}
{4:09} 13. The Juks (featuring Trife & Superb)
{3:21} 14. Walking Through The Darkness (featuring Tekitha)
{0:55} 15. Jealousy
{3:15} 16. Good Times (featuring Raekwon & Superb)
{4:00} 17. The Hilton (featuring Raekwon)
{1:00} 18. Interlude
{3:40} 19. Love Session (featuring Ruff Endz)
{1:55} 20. Street Chemistry (featuring Prodical & Trife)



-HIDDEN TRACK-
At twenty-two years of age, I have a fateful stipulation
A choice between death and suspended animation
With death the suffering ends, no question
With life, I could turn it around in five sessions
If I could afford to pay, that is
Life wouldn't be hell
But for me there is no sliding scale
No see-saw or piggyback rides
No Peter Frampton, no free samples of Tide
But don't be fooled
I'm not as sad as I pretend to be
Save your sympathy
I'll probably lose my sanity before my virginity]

                  I do this for the backpackers
                  And the slackers
                  The nerdy no-pussy havin' computer hackers
                  - Fatlip

>
>To me, it just seems like
>people are afraid to take
>rhyming to that next level...as
>if singing is the only
>way to express deep feeling.
>
>

thats why you see so many people saying hip hop needs a savior..because so many have come and taken it to the next level...rakim, krs, nas..etc...im not sure if there is another plateau it can reach...which is why people are branching out

As if singing is "the next level."

That's what bothers me.

__________________________________
sig.nificance.:
                  
                  
                  
                  

                  Ask my signature about 'Bulletproof Wallets: Director's Cut.'
<{1:20} 01. Intro[br />{3:23} 02. The Sun (featuring Raekwon, Slick Rick & The RZA)
{3:47} 03. Maxine
{3:07} 04. The Watch
{3:18} 05. Flowers {original}
(featuring Raekwon, Method Man & Superb)
{4:26} 06. Never Be The Same Again. (featuring Carl Thomas & Raekwon)
{1:04} 07. Teddy Skit
{3:09} 08. Theodore (featuring Trife & Twiz)
{4:11} 09. Ghost Showers
{3:06} 10. Strawberry (featuring Killah Sin)
{0:16} 11. Figure 8 Skit
{3:32} 12. The Forest {with bridge}
{4:09} 13. The Juks (featuring Trife & Superb)
{3:21} 14. Walking Through The Darkness (featuring Tekitha)
{0:55} 15. Jealousy
{3:15} 16. Good Times (featuring Raekwon & Superb)
{4:00} 17. The Hilton (featuring Raekwon)
{1:00} 18. Interlude
{3:40} 19. Love Session (featuring Ruff Endz)
{1:55} 20. Street Chemistry (featuring Prodical & Trife)



-HIDDEN TRACK-
At twenty-two years of age, I have a fateful stipulation
A choice between death and suspended animation
With death the suffering ends, no question
With life, I could turn it around in five sessions
If I could afford to pay, that is
Life wouldn't be hell
But for me there is no sliding scale
No see-saw or piggyback rides
No Peter Frampton, no free samples of Tide
But don't be fooled
I'm not as sad as I pretend to be
Save your sympathy
I'll probably lose my sanity before my virginity]

                  I do this for the backpackers
                  And the slackers
                  The nerdy no-pussy havin' computer hackers
                  - Fatlip

These are the same complaints people had about The Roots when they first came out. Saying they were pretentious for thinking live instruments was the "next level". But THE ROOTS never said that or intended it to be taken that way. They were just doing them. The same thing goes for Micah 9, L. Boogie, Cee-Lo, Mos Def etc. None of them are saying that rapping is dead or too boring for them. In my opinion, that was the whole intention of Big Ole Words - to make people realize he had nothing against rapping and that he *could* do that if he wanted to.

of lauryn's "i get out"

especially with lines like

"repressing true expression"

"cementing this repression"

"who made these rules i say"

"i wont protect your system"

Q-Tip stated that Hip-Hop is dead, so now he's singing.

And there was an article in SPIN where Cee-Lo mentioned that singing involves more emotion that rapping, and is more expressive.

And I believe in OutKast's cover story in VIBE (forgive me for not knowing the exactual actuals on this...that's my bad), Andre talked about how he didn't feel like rhyming anymore. Like it's a struggle for him to rap on records nowadays.

__________________________________
sig.nificance.:
                  
                  
                  
                  

                  Ask my signature about 'Bulletproof Wallets: Director's Cut.'
<{1:20} 01. Intro[br />{3:23} 02. The Sun (featuring Raekwon, Slick Rick & The RZA)
{3:47} 03. Maxine
{3:07} 04. The Watch
{3:18} 05. Flowers {original}
(featuring Raekwon, Method Man & Superb)
{4:26} 06. Never Be The Same Again. (featuring Carl Thomas & Raekwon)
{1:04} 07. Teddy Skit
{3:09} 08. Theodore (featuring Trife & Twiz)
{4:11} 09. Ghost Showers
{3:06} 10. Strawberry (featuring Killah Sin)
{0:16} 11. Figure 8 Skit
{3:32} 12. The Forest {with bridge}
{4:09} 13. The Juks (featuring Trife & Superb)
{3:21} 14. Walking Through The Darkness (featuring Tekitha)
{0:55} 15. Jealousy
{3:15} 16. Good Times (featuring Raekwon & Superb)
{4:00} 17. The Hilton (featuring Raekwon)
{1:00} 18. Interlude
{3:40} 19. Love Session (featuring Ruff Endz)
{1:55} 20. Street Chemistry (featuring Prodical & Trife)



-HIDDEN TRACK-
At twenty-two years of age, I have a fateful stipulation
A choice between death and suspended animation
With death the suffering ends, no question
With life, I could turn it around in five sessions
If I could afford to pay, that is
Life wouldn't be hell
But for me there is no sliding scale
No see-saw or piggyback rides
No Peter Frampton, no free samples of Tide
But don't be fooled
I'm not as sad as I pretend to be
Save your sympathy
I'll probably lose my sanity before my virginity]

                  I do this for the backpackers
                  And the slackers
                  The nerdy no-pussy havin' computer hackers
                  - Fatlip

i have no problem with these artists singing, because in all honesty, they can sing.

i mean.. if you have that ability to sing, but you came up as an mc, should you release two seperate albums with each form expression seperated? perhaps you should only sing to your children as they drift off to sleep?

squeeg, you definitely have a point, but i think the connections between points you made are jumbled a bit.

hip-hop music and/or culture still is wanting as far as having validation.

singing isn't. rap as a remotely viable form of expression is still brand new. folks have been singing since the beginning of time. so when a "rapper" goes out on a limb and displays his/her singing ability, it's like

::WOW, LOOK AT THAT, THEY CAN TALK TOO!::

to the overall public's ear.

i know i've heard/read that Mos says he's trying to represent black musical expression as a whole, including singing. an arduous task, probably, but a noble one indeed.

now, someone mentioned that cee-lo said that mc'ing isn't enough for him, or that it's not as expressive, or whatever. i think he's a little bit stuck in that mentality that singing is more valid than mc'ing.

maybe it is trendy, i dunno. my thing is, it could never really be bad, i can't think of a dual talent artist who's wack. Q-Tip needs a little help in both areas, but he's secured his validity with 5 albums of ATCQ goodness. Cee-Lo can blow, in my opinion, Lauryn can do her thing, and Mos doesn't try to do to much, i think he sounds really good. if they are slowing up the progression of hiphop music into a recognized art form, it isn't their fault.
________________________________________________

"i sample life when i write/ ask God... its cleared"-incogx



ak the verbalherbaliser.

Lauryn is the closest.

Cee-loo can get there.

Mos. I like him better as a MC.

Peace

Wendell

someone finally adressed the topic at hand :)

yeah, i agree with you on all 3 counts, although i dont mind mos as a singer..

and yeah, i look at them and i see soul..not neo soul..not new soul, not def soul..i think people are gonna look at artists like these in the same vein as cats like sam cooke, marvin, al green...

or maybe im just hallucinating

I seen a rainbow yesterday
But too many storms have come and gone
Leavin' a trace of not one God-given ray
Is it because my life is ten shades of grey
I pray all ten fade away
Seldom praise Him for the sunny days
And like His promise is true
Only my faith can undo
The many chances I blew
To bring my life to anew
Clear blue and unconditional skies
Have dried the tears from my eyes
No more lonely cries
My only bleedin' hope
Is for the folk who can't cope
Wit such an endurin' pain
That it keeps 'em in the pourin' rain
Who's to blame
For tootin' caine in your own vein
What a shame
You shoot and aim for someone else's brain
You claim the insane
And name this day and time
For fallin' prey to crime
I say the system got you victim to your own mind
Dreams are hopeless aspirations
In hopes of comin' true
Believe in yourself
The rest is up to me and you - Lisa "Left Eye" Lopes R.I.P

If You Don't Like The Effects, Don't Produce The Cause

Rap sucks!

Lauryn & Ceelo's music is infused w/soul (ie...they're really putting their hearts in the music..they're presenting their own views on the life, the world, & themselves...you really get a feel for who they ARE by listening to their music), but they're not making anything close to Soul Music. They're not following the tradition of folks like Otis Redding and Aretha Franklin (back in the day).

soul does not = Soul.

:)

but how was aretha perceived by her peers back then?....its my understanding that even then she was more of an MJ while everyone else was prince (excuse me if thats a bad analogy)

well actually, thats neither hear nor there...cuz i see what youre saying..but going on afkaps defintion (why im doing that i dont know :) ) in the stevie post, he talked about soul music being a tease..something that would tease you, get you pumped up for a climax, but not give it to you (i.e. james brown and the whole cape thing)...and of course im paraphrasing right there...but when i hear cee lo, and lauryn, i can feel that, you feel as though the music is escalating, but when it seems they are getting ready to hit this note, or strike this chord and bring the song to a climax...they hold back, and it dies down...

you dont see them being recognized as some of music's greats in the same vein as the others you mentioned in say, 10, 20 years?

>but how was aretha perceived by
>her peers back then?....its my
>understanding that even then she
>was more of an MJ
>while everyone else was prince

I dunno how she was received. I know she a gang of hits on the R&B charts, and won all sorts of Grammys.

>well actually, thats neither hear nor
>there...cuz i see what youre
>saying..but going on afkaps defintion
>(why im doing that i
>dont know :) but when i hear
>cee lo, and lauryn, i
>can feel that, you feel
>as though the music is
>escalating, but when it seems
>they are getting ready to
>hit this note, or strike
>this chord and bring the
>song to a climax...they
>hold back, and it dies
>down...

I dunno. I haven't listened closely enough to hear anything like that. And I don't agree w/Afkap's definition anyway. And I don't have my own clear one, either.

>you dont see them being recognized
>as some of music's greats
>in the same vein as
>the others you mentioned in
>say, 10, 20 years?

Lauryn has made enough of a splash that she'll be remembered. But I don't think she'll be revered in the way Aretha has. Aretha inspired all sorts of emulators. There are ppl who aspire to sound the way she sounded(sounds)...ain't nobody chasing after Lauryn's sound or Ceelo's sound. Lauryn & Ceelo don't even have a sound of their own. Not yet.

lauryn has her own sound. it's a mixture of others (as is ALL music now) its a mix of stevie, donny, otis, bob but it's unmistakeably lauryn which is why when whitney did my love is your love (single) everyone said she was lauryn.
haven't heard cee lo yet.
I know many peeps who try and emulate lauryn's sound although rite now people are in general jus fans of the whole of the current soul movement and are influenced by all of them in some way, jus as u got d' who's got bits of prince and smokeym, bilal's got prince and sly, lauryns got otis, bob, donnie, Stevie, Erykah has the sound of many a jazz and blues vocalist as does jill but with a classical edge, but they all have their own distinct very unique sound and i'm sure in 5-20 years we'll hav hundreds of artists with traces o all o' them in the mix.
I mean iv heard that originally alicia keys was very erykahish but they told her to come with sumthin mor sellable!

Anyway, i digress!

Cee-Lo - very little i've heard : impressed, and it seems like his hearts in it, ALL THAT MATTERS he's doing what He wants.

Mos - One of THE best MCs and his singing gives him an edge, he is in no way bad, no way polished bt none the less GREAT. umi was one of my favourite trax on that joint.

Lauryn - Singer first, got into rap through poetry, returned to singing as her main vein, but when she drops a verse no one around now can touch her. and she is in no way anything but a great singer, just as good as she is an MC.
One of the greatest lyricists of our time/?all time?. Naa. ALL TIME!

but they're
>not making anything close to
>Soul Music.

I can't speak on Ceelo, cause I just don't know about his album. Lauryn's music however is laced with spirituality and the upliftment of our people. She's "Soul" as the way of Stevie and Marvin (forget what Affy says).

They're not
>following the tradition of folks
>like Otis Redding and Aretha
>Franklin (back in the day).

I disagree. Both Otis and Aretha had VERY "churchy" sounds to their music. Ceelo is so "churchy" it's scary. I can literally visualize his little ass stepping to the mic to sing "Take me to the Water". I get that same vibe from Lauryn.

>soul does not = Soul.

I agree. But spirituality + upliftment + soul = Soul

Peace

Wendell

>I can't speak on Ceelo, cause
>I just don't know about
>his album. Lauryn's music
>however is laced with spirituality
>and the upliftment of our
>people. She's "Soul" as
>the way of Stevie and
>Marvin (forget what Affy says).
>

that was my original reason behind the post...i dont know why i let hotthyng shoot me down...i agree with that definition

>
>They're not
>>following the tradition of folks
>>like Otis Redding and Aretha
>>Franklin (back in the day).
>
>I disagree. Both Otis and
>Aretha had VERY "churchy" sounds
>to their music. Ceelo
>is so "churchy" it's scary.
> I can literally visualize
>his little ass stepping to
>the mic to sing "Take
>me to the Water".
>I get that same vibe
>from Lauryn.
>

yes!

>>soul does not = Soul.
>
>I agree. But spirituality +
>upliftment + soul = Soul
>

100 percent cosign

Lauryn = folk
Cee-Lo = R&B
Mos Def = rock

Ain't none of them doing hip-hop at the moment.

Is Miles Davis' Bitches Brew Jazz? or was it Rock? What about The Roots' DYWM? Hip Hop or Jazz?

>Is Miles Davis' Bitches Brew Jazz?

Yes, it was jazz.

>What
>about The Roots' DYWM? Hip
>Hop or Jazz?

That was obviously hip-hop.

Not everything is an "either/or". Many things are "ands"!!

and none of the things you listed were 'ands'.

Cee-Lo:

His new album proved that good Production is important -- and that's because he DOESN'T have it.

Wack ass album.

Lauryn:

Haven't heard the new Unplugged....but this was a wack ass way to come back out...all new live tracks?

You and a guitar?

Aimlessly noodling? (from what I've heard)

I'll reserve total judgment until I hear it....

Mos:

I haven't heard this new Black Jack Johnson stuff although a lotta y'all OKP's with advance ears have warned against it...

Black Star was dope as fuck.

Black On Both Sides was dope as fuck.

Based on those two, he's got a trump card with me -- money permitted, I'll buy it blind and risk hating it.

gREG bASS (now known as datcatdeycalltREBLEFREE)
Former Questo-Endorsed Player Of The Week...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey...he didn't pay me for ad space in my sig,
but you NEED to hear his new record.
Not now, but

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Homage to four women...





"how could they not have confidence?
she was the fuckin' franchise!
if hidden beach was mcdonalds
that broad was the hamburger!!!"
- okp Mike_Love on



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And now, a few random quotes from lyrics to various songs from an album I've been playing to death lately...

"...but ask yourself, even if you got one target, ain't you better off with two darts?"

"They say to eat good yo, you gotta swallow your pride, but dead that game plan I'm not satisfied."

NO MORE HIP HOP

Which might be a good thing.

Time for black folks to make sum new ish again.
Like we always do.

Yo I love CeeLo's new shit.
I like Q-Tips new shit
I like Mos Def no matter what endeavor he persues musically. Cuase as artists your allowed to EXPAND!!!

So why don't we as fans do the same.

I think Lauryn sings about as well as she delivers rhymes, but she is much better at writing rhymes than she is at writing songs. I'd like Lauryn to reverse her current singing-to-emceeing ratio, and get more help with her compositions when she is gonna sing.

Ceelo, uhh, I think his singing voice is strong enough to pull it off but he didn't quite do it this time. I like the album but it sounds like hip-hoppers trying to tackle traditional soul songwriting/production and getting in a little over their heads.

Mos Def, come on now. His singing is not bad, but nowhere near his emceeing. At first I thought Umi Says was laughable, but its sincerity won me over and now I actually love it. Still, he should only do that once per album.

So far as this general trend, and the explanations given by artists involved, I echo Squeeg's concerns. I have nothing against an artist doing whatever is in their heart, and I love hearing all these folks sing. But emceeing has such untapped potential, such expressive range that has not yet been explored, I just hope some of these great artists will continue tapping into that and exploring it. Otherwise what a waste that would be.

WBAI 99.5 FM in NY
http://www.hiphopmusic.com

Trying is the first step towards failure. - Homer S.

can't you be mean once in awhile?

And I agree with everything except lauryn.
- better mc than singer, true

But if I just look at her recent work, I find what she is singing about to be better than what she is rapping about. (to echo thrill w/o answering her question)

This is only based on the 7 songs I got prior the release of the MTV unplugged though. Upon further study I might change that.

one
k. orr

Lyrically I might agree with you, the ideas she is exploring in her singing may be fresher than those in her rhymes these days.

But what I mean is uhhh, she is a black belt in composing dope rhyme schemes and cadences, but only a green belt in composing fresh melodies and chord structures or whatever else makes an effective song.

Whenever I get mean on the boards I feel too guilty afterwards, I just can't do it.

Jay Smooth
WBAI 99.5 FM in NY
http://www.hiphopmusic.com

Trying is the first step towards failure. - Homer S.

>Whenever I get mean on the
>boards I feel too guilty
>afterwards, I just can't do
>it.

is why you are the bestest! :-) i need to try harder to follow your example.

>the ideas she is exploring
>in her singing may be
>fresher than those in her
>rhymes these days.
>

i've never heard a whole track with sum1 flowing for over 5mins about the corrupt legal system.

lauryns lyrics both sung and spat cant be faulted. in my humble opinion

has been done before, time and time again. she sorta puts it on one song though, but hardly revolutionary material.

She sings about emotions and relationships
She raps about politics.

oen
k. orr

>
>She sings about emotions and relationships
>
>She raps about politics.
>


pretty much...and to be honest none of it is revolutionary...i think her effect is greater though because of the honesty part...and who knows if she really is honest or not, but she's a great salesperson

I Find It Hard To Say (Rebel) - No rapping completely political
I Get Out - Politicalish Not relationship based
Adam - mixture of two

The whole of the last album was relationship but i think shes moving away from that a bit. But shes writing what shes feeling, personally and in the bigger picture and it shows, cant be a bad thing

>I Find It Hard To Say
>(Rebel) - No rapping completely
>political

semi political/semi emotional

>I Get Out - Politicalish Not
>relationship based

more emotional based...its about looking within, non-comformity,etc..but nothing political

>Adam - mixture of two

social commentary

>
>The whole of the last album
>was relationship but i think
>shes moving away from that
>a bit. But shes writing
>what shes feeling, personally and
>in the bigger picture and
>it shows, cant be a
>bad thing

agreed

this is the thing that stumps me...

what is it?

of course, if we knew the answer, it wouldnt be untapped...

but it seems as if we've run the gammit (sp?) with what we could do...hip hop started out mega simple (hip hop, the hippy to the hibby to the bibbity bee) and has evolved through so many stages, but do you think there is that much left to do with it?

i kinda see a regression...where cats are going back to simpler styles, and just letting the words speak for themselves instead of using gimmicks (like the god awful prerequisite bone thugs rhyme style track on everyone's lp)

and the experimentation and ultimate meshing of rap/rock...

im just curious as to where this untapped potential is gonna come from

I don't have a particular path in mind, but we can certainly go many other places than where 99% of us are now.

The "anticon" sector are doing interesting things in terms of using the medium to explore new levels of introspection. But most of it falls flat for me because the idea that hip-hop should be effective MUSICALLY seems to be an afterthought for these guys, if they think of it at all. If more folks would explore those lyrical frontiers without forgetting that hip-hop is music first and foremost, I'd be interested to hear the results.

Jay Smooth
WBAI 99.5 FM in NY
http://www.hiphopmusic.com

Trying is the first step towards failure. - Homer S.

in the sense that we need dee jays and dancers...

hip hop should be fun again...

i may be alone in this, but i think its time for things to come full circle and start the cycle again...

im tired of havin "hot" producers and inconsistent albums because nothing flows right.

and i don't think the two have to be mutually exclusive..going back to the basics could help you find new directions.

Jay Smooth
WBAI 99.5 FM in NY
http://www.hiphopmusic.com

Trying is the first step towards failure. - Homer S.

seriously. i wanna know.

________________________________________________

"i sample life when i write/ ask God... its cleared"-incogx



ak the verbalherbaliser.

Emceeing is the art of using words to communicate ideas while at the same time communicating rhythmically with the beat. The possibilities are vast, it would appear to me. I wish more artists were able to take a step back and see it that way instead of conforming to an increasingly rigid formula.

Jay Smooth
WBAI 99.5 FM in NY
http://www.hiphopmusic.com

Trying is the first step towards failure. - Homer S.

cos they expanded beyond hip hop.

WELL WHAT WAS WRONG WITH KRS? DID HE NOT DO SHIT? HIS LEGACY IS JUST AS WORTHY even if he didnt 'expand' as such.

see thats the problem. people still dont give hip hop respect as an art. thats one reason people have/want to step outside the box.

(sorry for the caps)

cuz I think I am on your side.

Part of KRS greatness is that he DID have an expansive vision, and pioneered new directions such as the fusion of hip-hop with dancehall style vocals...but he always remained within the realm of emceeing, sought to expand within the medium not expand away from it. I hope today's artists don't think you have to do the latter.

Jay Smooth
WBAI 99.5 FM in NY
http://www.hiphopmusic.com

Trying is the first step towards failure. - Homer S.

im with you. thats what i think. but i think the common perception amongst people/critics/artists even is that hip hop is this childish art that is there for you to graduate from to better things. so perhaps its good that its such a breeding ground. but where does that leave hip hop? and that is just belittling hip hop. melody or no melody, songs like world is yours, TROY, etc moved me. i happen to think in some cases, melody can even be intrusive. i dont want it. i like shit minimal and 'repetitious'. theres somehting to be said for that.

despite its press and its units moved, hip hop still fights for respect, and will probably continue to do so.

so while we know what songs like TROY mean to us, and what pioneeers like Rakim, KRS, Bambaata, etc mean to us, on a larger scale, these are people that will probably never be recognized outside of hip hop circles.

when i say mos, lauryn, and cee lo will go down in history, im speaking on a larger scale...because they will create the type of audiences that will have a much bigger following than hip hop (because from a caucasian standpoint, its just the kids, and not their parents listening to it)...but people like marvin gaye, stevie wonder, aretha, these people are household names everywhere...i think mos and lauryn to a greater extent than cee lo have that potential.

>I think Lauryn sings about as
>well as she delivers rhymes,
>but she is much better
>at writing rhymes than she
>is at writing songs. I'd
>like Lauryn to reverse her
>current singing-to-emceeing ratio, and get
>more help with her compositions
>when she is gonna sing.
>
>

Lauryn is one of the best songwriters i've heard, both rhymes and sung melodies, she doesnt stick to regular standards for structure or composition for writing, but she does whateva is necessary to get her message across.
Lyrically - one of the best
Melodically - only stevie has Consistantly impressed me more.

This debate really frustrates me. Here's my take based on what I've read from these folks mouths (except for Mos). Maybe coincidently but Lauryn, Cee-Lo and Andre were all born in 1975 I think just as I was. We all grew up on soul music and in the case of L and Cee, in Chu'ch, what I'm sayin is it's in us. BUT at the same time in '86 or '87 we were still kids and were in tune with this thing comin up called Hip Hop. Then being talented and all, we start rhyming (not to put down rap but back then rapping in the schoolyard was but not exclusively 1. for cats who couln't sing and 2. a good way to start writing "songs").
I don't know any of em but it just seems that they're returning to their roots and most artists music should reflect themselves spiritually and it's obvious that's the case with these folk. It ain't hardly because singin is more "mainstream" or "palatable". Rap is dominating music.They're talented at both I mean if they'd come out singin first in the same amount as they (actually did) rapping what would we say? They were sellin out because Rap is a more lucrative biz than singing? I don't know but.......this is hurting my head! I quit! I for one am lovin it! It's like choosing btwn Hip Hop vs Soul and that shouldn't be the case. Hip Hop heads needn't be so Stuck for lack of a better word.

and came out singing first as a full time gig, then started rapping, they would never be accepted..so they HAD to come this way, because they can still go back to rap and keep their respectablity...

i like the argument you present

with you

>with you

with everyone...cats are still waiting with baited breath for lauryn to drop a hip hop album...

heads are checking for a black star reunion...

the respect is still there

>>with you
>
>with everyone...cats are still waiting with
>baited breath for lauryn to
>drop a hip hop album...
>
>
>heads are checking for a black
>star reunion...
>
>the respect is still there


no i meant i was with him/her 100% on that point.

Oh and when lauryn drops that hip hop lp is gna be one of the greatest eva made.

I'm digressing slightly but waht do people in gnereal think of the new lautyn album?

Hows it being taken in the US? In the UK it's being slated by the critics but everyone whos geard thinks its amazing, people who u would neva expect as well as die hard fans
so?

so early on...

ive read reviews calling it a masterpiece..and ive read more wondering what the hell she is doing..

a lot of the reviews focus on the unpolished sound of her voice and of her guitar...

they also refer to her interludes as ramblings, being preachy, etc...

i really think most just do not get it...or do not want to think about the things she speaks about...

They are past the " emcee phase"

as evident with Lauryn and Cee Lo

dont be surprised if Andre does the same.

Why? Melody wins everytime over spoken word for listening audience potential. It always will with people are melodic vocalists.

Emcees dont stand a chance with a live band vs a vocalist,

Im sorry... but translation of a song w/ melody will mostly prevail over a emcee presentation.

Because more can be conveyed thru singin on stage or on record.

Its something about being able to bring out spirit and soul if they channel right.




SO if their heart isnt in it I say do different things.

Matter of fact I could care less if Cee Lo rhymes again or not just keeps doing what he wants and is satisfied with his music.


Thats why Lauryn and Cee Lo are in the best places of their music life right now.

Because they are turning left instead of turning right or goin straight ahead.

and I thank them for it.

When you get some people speaking against it? That shows me signs when you have some still with you on that "LEVEL"

The listeners of these artists will have to accept their musical vision for their future.

And thats all there is to it

np:Fred Hammond &RFC Pages of life Chapter II (Disc II)

]


"If this van's a rockin its probably playing Dokken."-Maximum Exposure



dates n chitt:

Its the 2002 partial rundown


El-P-May 2002

Cody-Whenever 2002

Prince-whenever 2002

Raphael Saadiq-supposed to be may 2002

Q tip-Might not MAY be in 2030

FOLEY-TimeClock on Da Universe (It comes out when it drops, gonna stay in my sig til now. just check http://www.smartalecmusic.com for now.