http://warscribe.blogspot.com/2004/12/come-home-with-me.html

Quarta-feira, Dezembro 08, 2004

Come Home With Me

I don’t write for the stardom/ I get buddha, zooted, write down my problems/ I been through it, headed right for the bottom/ D.C. -- nah, woulda been a sniper in Harlem

Theory: The inner-city mujahedin who are on the frontlines of the war going on outside that nobody's safe from notwithstanding, one’s ability to enjoy Dipsetism is proportionate to one's distance from the playground zeroes that serve as the breeding camps for such terrorist-worshiping souls. I think that motherfuckers enjoy the way that Killa drops bombs mainly because they don’t have to deal with the nuclear fallout of his words. It’s all fun and games when you don’t have to witness his morals form mushroom clouds in young minds, fogging up their thought process with the idea that life ain't shit but bitches and money. It’s easy to enjoy genocidal wordplay when you don’t have to walk through the projects valleys in the shadow of death. But that all changes once you see a Timberland-clad young mother who can’t be more than eighteen convulse (not “shake”) with all-white eyes and snot bubbles in her nose because a stray bullet just burst her baby inside out. That’s a sight you don’t forget, a scream that never stops echoing in your ears and a boy that will never grow up to tell you “cut the shit, ma, twist your hips and suck your lips.” You can only find it cute when words incite violence if you have no insight to violence. It’s a bit different when you have courtside season tickets to the lifetime riots. The excitement isn’t the same when you don’t have the luxury of keeping the madness at arm’s length, ordering mixtapes off the internet.

No, I don't think the hood would turn to Eden if everyone rapped like the Black Eyed Peas. And I’m not going to get into judging Cam or pointing fingers, because I’m all too intimate with pull of the spiral that spins his value system. I know that it's more than just music; that there are actually guys living the ill street blues on those Harlem streets (and those B-more, Detroit and Liberty City streets). Cam was given this world, he didnt make it. He's just making it worse. Going at Cam is like going at the five-year-old girl who knows how to do all of the latest hoochie dances. I’d rather talk to the adults who pile into the livingroom and encourage the bullshit saying, “Go Nisha! . . . Isn’t that so cute? She's the bomb!!” So, Dipset-loving whyteboys, while I have your attention: Negro dysfunction and minstrelsy has always been amusing, yes, but it’s always been toxic as well -- to my people, my community, my family. And since we're all connected on this little mudball, the hate that you currently find such enjoyment in will be at your door sooner or later. You shrug your shoulders and bob your head when Mr. Giles "treat bitches straight up like Simon Says:/ Open Vagina, put your legs behind your head" and gives sage advice from the heartless bastard's handbook: "Never trust a hoe/ That's mother to babymother/ Motherfucker, you look like a lady lover/ I'll touch, slap her, dap her, plus clap her/ Tell her, 'Drink cum, get drunk, it's nutcracker.'" But when Mr. Mathers does the same thing, it's a bit more disturbing because his mother and wife look, well, a bit more like your mother and wife, no? Surely, it's never a problem in Harlem. Maybe you'll change your minds when you're fathers of daughters starting to blossom and some guy invites your baby girl to "swim in my pants/Dive for dick" before letting her know "we can smash tonight/Right here in the car, ma/ At the light." I mean, that is the logical end when you champion this Killa as some sort of hip-hop Pollock, when he's not even Marla Olmstead.

Cam's words come out like the drool of a grown man who needs to be spoon-fed his meals and I’ll admit it -- that flow is bewitching and can put a spell on the most formidable of us with just a bit of work. Like most pushers of the lowest common denominator, the guy can sound his best when he's at his worst: "I style up in my gear/Stallion of the year/Medallions in my ear /Whips on my fist/ Houses on my wrist/ Your budget on my neck/ Your spouse on my dick/Post-Its on the wall/Posted on my balls/ Dick in her mouth, I tell her: I'm gettin' money, nigga!"

Mesmerising lyrical sorcery accounted for, I still don’t find Purple Haze to be that great of an album. Certainly not the year’s best. (A little restraint, people -- it's not even the best hip-hop album released this week.) It won’t make my list for ’04, ’05 or ’03. Even if “Get Em Girls” is on it.

(At the end of “Down and Out” Cam shouts out small towns in Ohio – maybe he can start a crack for votes program?)

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

u mad doggie?

not saying they do, but i bete kris ex likes MOP, who are quite famous for lyrics like 'sell your crack!'

And if one was to bash everyone who's made morally irresponsible hip hop, they would've had to start years ago.

if you go to the larger blog, you can see kris ex praising M.O.P. and T.I.

u gotta be fucking kidding me?

this is some personal B.S.

years ago, his articles for the music mags was decent, but I couldn't predict he was capable of wacked out, ax-to-grind logic like this.

about how the Dips addicted her sister to heroin or crack or something?

that shit kinda bothered me... i dunno if it's true or not. but it sort of rang of authenticity to me.

we know that rappers say all kinda of ignorant bullshit, and that's part of what we like about them. but when i think about the possibility that these songs are actually REAL advertisements for drug dealing operations...

there's something creepy about that.

but i think her sis was addicted prior though, but dont quote me on it & she said it wasn't the group but a wing of the group, but again don't quote me

not a perfect memory, but reasonably sure. She said her sister recognized the "Dip-Set Dip-Set Dip-Set Dip-Set" chant.

it's still no less creepy, though

this is the kind of thing that our children will take us to task for when our community is even more fucked up than it is now.

we often ask our parents generation: "how did you let this happen?"

our kids will ask us: "Not only did you stand there and WATCH this happen, but you danced to records about it?"

it's a shame.

i know i might sound like an old man, but fuck it... i'm grown.

this is some bullshit. some ignorant, irresponsible bullshit. and the people who disagree with me about it are probably

a) people who really have nothing to lose or gain in the matter (ie. they're white, or at least not black Americans)
b) people who know better but are just too weak or scared to admit it

personally, i don't like them on purely musical grounds... but even if i did, i would have to reject them for this.

this is what happened to ODB, when the world was celebrating his ignorance, acting like he was some kind of performance artist and not a very troubled human being who needed help. then once, they were done entertaining themselves, they left him to die.

you could say the same thing about Pac.

it's bullshit.

and you wonder why we're always the wretched of the earth, looking for someone to pity us while we celebrate the hideous.

>it's still no less creepy, though
>
>this is the kind of thing that our children will take us to
>task for when our community is even more fucked up than it
>is now.
>
>we often ask our parents generation: "how did you let this
>happen?"
>
>our kids will ask us: "Not only did you stand there and
>WATCH this happen, but you danced to records about it?"
>
>it's a shame.

people dance to records about fucking so should we blame them for h.i.v. infection? teenage pregnancy? everyone that "does drugs" does NOT become addicted to it. & since the somewhat downfall of crack usage, this is really just a matter of the fact that there will ALWAYS be drug users/abusers, there were before rap & there will be, if god forbid rap music ever ends.

lucy in the sky with diamonds anyone?


>
>i know i might sound like an old man, but fuck it... i'm
>grown.
>
>this is some bullshit. some ignorant, irresponsible
>bullshit. and the people who disagree with me about it are
>probably
>
>a) people who really have nothing to lose or gain in the
>matter (ie. they're white, or at least not black Americans)
>b) people who know better but are just too weak or scared to
>admit it


again, there was fucked upness prior to dipset, jayz or even schooly d for that matter.

>
>personally, i don't like them on purely musical grounds...
>but even if i did, i would have to reject them for this.
>
>this is what happened to ODB, when the world was celebrating
>his ignorance, acting like he was some kind of performance
>artist and not a very troubled human being who needed help.

um, dipset, as far as i know are not drug abusers


>then once, they were done entertaining themselves, they left
>him to die.


was odb the first artist to die MAYBE becuz of drugs? please enlighten me

>
>you could say the same thing about Pac.
>
>it's bullshit.

PAC was murdered, big fat ass difference

>
>and you wonder why we're always the wretched of the earth,
>looking for someone to pity us while we celebrate the
>hideous.


good lord

on the same note

just because its there doesnt mean one should be able to pick it up dress it up and put it out there even further

i definitely think the blame on music is a bit extra but not entirely unfounded and the focus on cam especially since he hasnt even been shown to be 'influential' as say an nwa or a biggie or jay z is a bit much

didn’t you used to have “GROWNASSWOMAN” in your sig? come on…

>people dance to records about fucking so should we blame
>them for h.i.v. infection? teenage pregnancy?

that’s the lamest analogy ever. but you know what? it kinda works… yes, the whole “rock & roll” mentality that has swept across America has shaped the culture in a certain way.

i don’t think it’s coincidental that the gay community was the first to be hit by AIDS at a time when there was a spirit of reckless behavior among that particular group.

i don’t think it’s coincidental that the rates of teenage pregnancy have risen exponentially.

do i *blame* the music… no. but i would be lying if i were to say that the music helps to shape the culture, and therefore we need to be very careful about what kind of ideas we are putting out through the music. yes, i do think we should be more responsible.

everyone that
>"does drugs" does NOT become addicted to it. & since the
>somewhat downfall of crack usage, this is really just a
>matter of the fact that there will ALWAYS be drug
>users/abusers, there were before rap & there will be, if god
>forbid rap music ever ends.

sure, there will always be drug users and abusers… there always HAVE been, right back to the Garden of Eden.

but when you know that this is a situation that is hitting OUR community in a much harder way than it is hitting them, don’t you think it’s kinda sick to be making songs CELEBRATING that shit?

i hate it when people constantly make analogies between Niggers and Chosen People, but really… it’s kinda like if there was a Jewish MC celebrating the Holocaust.

since you say “drug users and abusers have always been around…” so has racism. if there was a white MC out there who had the hottest beats and rhymes and he was rhyming some racist shit, would you support him just because the music is hot?

oh wait… you’re the “fuck Eminem/black women are the queens of the earth” girl, ain’t you?

>lucy in the sky with diamonds anyone?

guess what? i am EXTREMELY critical of the 60s generation and a lot of the ugliness they help unleash on the world. but one thing they have over us is that at least they did it in the spirit of naivete, unlike this fucking cynical, Godless generation of snakes that i had the misfortune to be born into.

>again, there was fucked upness prior to dipset, jayz or even
>schooly d for that matter.

exactly.

but you know what? the classic black artists of the 70s that y’all love to bless with endless nutlove…. the James Browns, the Marvin Gayes, the Curtis Mayfields, the Maurice Whites, the Donny Hathaways…. they KNEW there was fucked-upness in the world. some of them grew up under conditions that we could never begin to IMAGINE.

but they didn’t say “hey, the world is fucked up! let’s make it MORE fucked up!”

they fucking tried to make it BETTER

never mind that a lot of them were doing fucked up shit in their private lives… at least when we listen to that music, we can hear a testament to the beauty of the Human Spirit and not psalms praising all that is ugly and grotesque about the world.

fuck that

THOSE WERE MEN

not these fucking little monkeys running around today that our children are looking up to like icons

i swear… it makes me want to cry. i mean it. i actually feel tears in my eyes as i type this

and i mad at YOU, fire! because i fucking KNOW you and i know what you are about, and i KNOW that you know better than this

>>this is what happened to ODB, when the world was celebrating
>>his ignorance, acting like he was some kind of performance
>>artist and not a very troubled human being who needed help.
>
>um, dipset, as far as i know are not drug abusers

but they are drug dealers… meting out death to their own communities

>>then once, they were done entertaining themselves, they left
>>him to die.
>
>was odb the first artist to die MAYBE becuz of drugs?
>please enlighten me

of course not.

but what i’m saying is that when ODB was acting up, doing foolish things in public, endangering his own life… nobody said “that brother needs help.” they were like “oh, ODB is a MAGNIFICENT artist and his life is his art! he is so funny! let’s invite him on TV to do and say stupid shit to entertain us!”

then when he went to jail, you didn’t hear that same adulation for ODB… he ceased to interest us. he came out of jail, tried to get his life together… nobody cares about him no more because he’s not running round like a drug-addled orangutan. then he’s dead, and barely anybody seems to care.

nigger life ain’t worth shit in America, and people like Dipset only make things worse.

as is busy making songs called “These are Our Heroes” attacking Taye Diggs and Wayne Brady or whoever, meanwhile our REAL heroes are R. KELLY and CAMRON

i swear… this would be the stuff of comedy if it weren’t so pitiful

>>you could say the same thing about Pac.
>>
>>it's bullshit.
>
>PAC was murdered, big fat ass difference

Pac was murdered. we don’t know for sure who did it, but the fact is that most will agree that Pac very much made himself a target when he was busy poncing around and running his mouth like the Biggest Nigger in Darktown

These Are Our Heroes.

*shakes head*

my people, my people…

and words ARE God...words create thoughts and thoughts create actions and more words.

I thought we had a relative understanding of this physical world, but apparently we need refreshing.

People do not kill other people. neither do guns. neither do bullets. People kill themselves. People do everything to themselves except for be born, and even that I am not so convinced of.

If you get caught by a stray bullet, get shot like Pac, OD on speedballs, get in a car accident, whatever...accidents DO NOT happen. Regardless of the physical act, if someone shoots me, my thoughts and my words and my actions had such an effect on myself and other people that they drove another man to pull the trigger and shoot me. He may get life in jail because of it, but he did not murder me. He just carried out the plan.
Pac AND Biggie created clouds around them by what they said and how they acted. It was supposed to be God's way of teaching us a lesson...which is nothing new to time. But people are so confused today as to what is real with mass media, the internet, corporate interests, credit cards, etc. that we don't seem to be getting God's messages as clearly. So he keeps speaking LOUDER and we still ain't listening, we almost losing faith...like when ya daddy yells at you and whoops your ass, but even though you know you were wrong you do it again because your ego doesn't like the way your daddy smakced it around...but then in a few years when you turn into your daddy you like "thanks for whoopin' my ass dad. that helped me out a lot"
But we ain't gettin' it. ALL PEOPLE. Until people really make an effort to progress the evolution of the human race, rather than end it, there will be more 9/11, more Bush's, more Pac/BIG/ODB,etc, more Hurricane Charlie's, more 45degree July 4th and 80 degree Christmas days...until we recognize as a whole what is going on.

to quote myself "this physical plane is just a visual strain of individual brains leaving residual stains"
we create the world around us, and apparently most of the world got bored and decided it was time for Revelations...well, I ain't going out like that. All it takes is others to think the same and say it.

that's the way of the world & that's the way it's been since satan wanted to be a bad ass fucking around & got kicked out.

they don't exist, but they are easily marketed and comprehended

We still haven't quite grasped the many uses of reason, we use it for categorization and judgement when it is not our place to do either.

BUT

I am not anti-anything. I grew up on NWA, Too$hort, UTFO, Blowfly, Willie D., Guns and Roses, all that raw shit.
there is a need for it. as sick as that sounds. but there comes a time when you grow up and you're sick of your friends dying for nothing. you get sick of all life's "tough lessons", but you don't move out and stay away from the hood...you go back and you try to make it a home that you are proud of. If you gonna get filthy rich and still rep your hood, don't just flaunt your money and make them jealous no matter what they did to you in the past. Be thankful. That's my big knock on him I guess, besides the music. I got a problem with dudes who don't seem thankful they are as fortunate as they are. The thing is too, I bet if you talked to any of these dudes one on one, they would be positive and tell you to do your thing and make the hood better and follow your dreams and everything, but the persona they put in the interviews and public appearances reeks of "markass buster"...now maybe they are just some Sufi masters of disception and they will eventually enlighten us once they've lured us into their idiocy...but all the kufi-smack talk makes me feel that won't happen.

I just expect more from cats from the hood, cuz they know about perseverence. But what they are doing is easier than taking candy from a baby. It's like making fun of the kids on the short-bus...like fucking a girl simply becasue she has a pussy...people do it all the time, but those people are not strong people. They taking the easy way out, but I guess I'd expect that from drug dealers...I've done my share of dirt as have people I love but jail bids, dead brothers and sisters and having your own kids tends to show people that if you keep doing negative things to get over, you will be associated with negativity and you will be pissed that everyone is getting ovewr on you. You grow up and you watch these others boys drop off like flies...it's easy to get killed. it takes much more skill, soul, and integrity to live.
Unless they decide to change their ways a little(you don't even have to soften up, although I have my suspicions as to how hard those pink video thugs are), they will not continue to defy the Universe and something bad will happen to them and because of how they act now white folks will say "So? what did YOU PEOPLE expect?" and I won't even need to say I told you so.

life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it. I know that's a jail cliche, but that shit is true. And the toughest thing for poor folks to react to is getting rich...hopefully they adapt a little better cuz they going the way of MC Hammer, at best. Don't show me how much money you spend, that's bad mojo. Like they say, it isn't what a man earns that makes him a man, it's what he keeps that makes him a man.

evil?
please. Cam ain't even cool enough to be considered evil...only God can be evil, and even then he's not being evil, just showing you how good you got it.

realest stuff I EVER read on here.

out of context, some of this shit sounds funny as hell


>
>i hate it when people constantly make analogies between
>Niggers and Chosen People, >


tell 'em why you mad Af!

unlike this fucking cynical,
>Godless generation of snakes that i had the misfortune to be
>born into.




>not these fucking little monkeys running around today that
>our children are looking up to like icons
>

“oh, ODB is a
>MAGNIFICENT artist and his life is his art! he is so funny!
>let’s invite him on TV to do and say stupid shit to
>entertain us!”
>

>no more because he’s not running round like a drug-addled
>orangutan. then he’s dead, and barely anybody seems to care.
>




>Pac was murdered. we don’t know for sure who did it, but the
>fact is that most will agree that Pac very much made himself
>a target when he was busy poncing around and running his
>mouth like the Biggest Nigger in Darktown

i know a lot of those statements are gonna come back to bite me in the ass anyway

self-depreciating racial slurs are acceptable...and actually pretty damn funny sometimes

...if they bite, they bite. Fuck it.

>didn’t you used to have “GROWNASSWOMAN” in your sig? come
>on…

its also the title of my first single, get used to it


>
>>people dance to records about fucking so should we blame
>>them for h.i.v. infection? teenage pregnancy?
>
>that’s the lamest analogy ever. but you know what? it kinda
>works… yes, the whole “rock & roll” mentality that has swept
>across America has shaped the culture in a certain way.
>


to blame drug dealers for drug abuse is the same thing. supply & demand baby, supply & demand.

>i don’t think it’s coincidental that the gay community was
>the first to be hit by AIDS at a time when there was a
>spirit of reckless behavior among that particular group.
>
>i don’t think it’s coincidental that the rates of teenage
>pregnancy have risen exponentially.
>
>do i *blame* the music… no. but i would be lying if i were
>to say that the music helps to shape the culture, and
>therefore we need to be very careful about what kind of
>ideas we are putting out through the music. yes, i do think
>we should be more responsible.


so why don't u lobby for censorship & doing away w/the free speech amendment? everybody isn't a fucking leader nor does everyone want to be.

>
>everyone that
>>"does drugs" does NOT become addicted to it. & since the
>>somewhat downfall of crack usage, this is really just a
>>matter of the fact that there will ALWAYS be drug
>>users/abusers, there were before rap & there will be, if god
>>forbid rap music ever ends.
>
>sure, there will always be drug users and abusers… there
>always HAVE been, right back to the Garden of Eden.
>
>but when you know that this is a situation that is hitting
>OUR community in a much harder way than it is hitting them,
>don’t you think it’s kinda sick to be making songs
>CELEBRATING that shit?

hitting our community....hmmm...our community has been hit with POVERTY & very little access to a great education which eventually leads to drug use/dealing so the bigger picture (c) the dips is that we are disenfranchised which leads to such behaviors, which came first the chicken or the egg?


>
>i hate it when people constantly make analogies between
>Niggers and Chosen People, but really… it’s kinda like if
>there was a Jewish MC celebrating the Holocaust.

people CHOOSE to take/deal drugs they aren't forced, find a better anal-o-Gee.


>
>since you say “drug users and abusers have always been
>around…” so has racism. if there was a white MC out there
>who had the hottest beats and rhymes and he was rhyming some
>racist shit, would you support him just because the music is
>hot?
>

hm.....is amsterdam rife w/these plagues? i personally think if shit was "legal" we wouldn't have the problems that we have, cuz if u think about it, none of this addiction shit would be as bad as it is IF lawmakers tried to make some sense out of a problem that affects ALL communities....but that's a whole nother post.


>oh wait… you’re the “fuck Eminem/black women are the queens
>of the earth” girl, ain’t you?

yeah and so?

>
>>lucy in the sky with diamonds anyone?
>
>guess what? i am EXTREMELY critical of the 60s generation
>and a lot of the ugliness they help unleash on the world.
>but one thing they have over us is that at least they did it
>in the spirit of naivete, unlike this fucking cynical,
>Godless generation of snakes that i had the misfortune to be
>born into.

u try being born into poverty then come back and try to be non-cynical, minus cam'ron the whole lot of dipset & the majority of all rappers that "glorify" drug use & violence were born into conditions you will NEVER be able to imagine, so jump down off ur high horse & go into the community & help somebody. at least i make an effort to help those around me instead of talkign aobut how terrible it all is & then typing about the plagues from behind my pc.


>
>>again, there was fucked upness prior to dipset, jayz or even
>>schooly d for that matter.
>
>exactly.
>
>but you know what? the classic black artists of the 70s that
>y’all love to bless with endless nutlove…. the James Browns,
>the Marvin Gayes, the Curtis Mayfields, the Maurice Whites,
>the Donny Hathaways…. they KNEW there was fucked-upness in
>the world. some of them grew up under conditions that we
>could never begin to IMAGINE.
>
>but they didn’t say “hey, the world is fucked up! let’s make
>it MORE fucked up!”

so, why the fuck should people have to mirror others in order to get their point across. the beauty of music & art is that every artist has a right to express themselves HOW they choose to, not their audience, not their community, not their family THEY. now the minute dipset decides & says that they want to be role models, then we can take them to task....until then, we need to take care of our communities OURSELVES and stop looking to the entertainment industry to do so. it's like the parents who want congress to control what their kids do cuz they're too lazy to tdo it.

>
>they fucking tried to make it BETTER
>
>never mind that a lot of them were doing fucked up shit in
>their private lives… at least when we listen to that music,
>we can hear a testament to the beauty of the Human Spirit
>and not psalms praising all that is ugly and grotesque about
>the world.

"what u do in the dark, comes out in the light"....(c) my sister......that shit holds SO true......look at the james brown post,....the media makes an attempt to downplay his "good" with all the drug arrest talk & on a more personal note, i know for a fact that james used to beat his women, therefore should i ignore the greatness of his music cuz he was a woman beater/drug abuser or should i put his "misgivings" into perspective?

>
>fuck that
>
>THOSE WERE MEN
>
>not these fucking little monkeys running around today that
>our children are looking up to like icons

wow, ure doing ure damndest to justify "their" stereotypes aren't you?


>
>i swear… it makes me want to cry. i mean it. i actually feel
>tears in my eyes as i type this
>
>and i mad at YOU, fire! because i fucking KNOW you and i
>know what you are about, and i KNOW that you know better
>than this

better than what? I'm mad at you for not helping ur community on a large scale if it bothers u so much, but u'll be the first one pointing ur fingers at bill cosby for going in print & making an attempt to help the kids. all u do is TYPE A GOOD FUCKING GAME. that's not e-fucking nough....especially when u have listened to & posted about MANY A FUCKIGN ARTTISTS THAT ARE "JUST AS BAD" AS DIPSET, IF NOT WORSE!


>
>>>this is what happened to ODB, when the world was celebrating
>>>his ignorance, acting like he was some kind of performance
>>>artist and not a very troubled human being who needed help.
>>
>>um, dipset, as far as i know are not drug abusers
>
>but they are drug dealers… meting out death to their own
>communities

if u listened to purple haze u would know that cam sells drugs to white boys...or are u too blinded with hate to go listen to the album?


>
>>>then once, they were done entertaining themselves, they left
>>>him to die.
>>
>>was odb the first artist to die MAYBE becuz of drugs?
>>please enlighten me
>
>of course not.
>
>but what i’m saying is that when ODB was acting up, doing
>foolish things in public, endangering his own life… nobody
>said “that brother needs help.” they were like “oh, ODB is a
>MAGNIFICENT artist and his life is his art! he is so funny!
>let’s invite him on TV to do and say stupid shit to
>entertain us!”
>
ODB IS A GROWN ASS MOTHERFUCKIGN MAN!!!!! HE CAN DO WHAT HE WANTS EVEN IF IT LED TO HIS DEMISE! HE HAS FREE WILL THAT GOD GAVE HIM, GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE WITH THAT SHIT!


>then when he went to jail, you didn’t hear that same
>adulation for ODB… he ceased to interest us. he came out of
>jail, tried to get his life together… nobody cares about him
>no more because he’s not running round like a drug-addled
>orangutan. then he’s dead, and barely anybody seems to care.

i care more than u could imagine, but some people don't want no saving. we could put this same analogy to kurt cobain & a million other artists/people that abuse drugs. the shit has been here from the door & to think that dipset is perpetuating it anymore than 77% of the other rappers is fucked up & biased.


>
>nigger life ain’t worth shit in America, and people like
>Dipset only make things worse.
>
>as is busy making songs called “These are Our Heroes”
>attacking Taye Diggs and Wayne Brady or whoever, meanwhile
>our REAL heroes are R. KELLY and CAMRON
>
>i swear… this would be the stuff of comedy if it weren’t so
>pitiful
>
>>>you could say the same thing about Pac.
>>>
>>>it's bullshit.
>>
>>PAC was murdered, big fat ass difference
>
>Pac was murdered. we don’t know for sure who did it, but the
>fact is that most will agree that Pac very much made himself
>a target when he was busy poncing around and running his
>mouth like the Biggest Nigger in Darktown

yeah, he begged to be murdered. kinda like a woman begs to be raped for wearing tight clothing, huh?


>
>These Are Our Heroes.
>
>*shakes head*
>
>my people, my people…


what the fuck ever kap, u always talk DOWN about ur people but i dont' see u doing a THING to lift them up. until u go tutor some kids like i've done or done some habitat for humanity or fed the homeless or even given mad money to various orgs & countless causes like i've done u can eat a dick.

>what the fuck ever kap, u always talk DOWN about ur people
>but i dont' see u doing a THING to lift them up. until u go
>tutor some kids like i've done or done some habitat for
>humanity or fed the homeless or even given mad money to
>various orgs & countless causes like i've done u can eat a
>dick.

LOL honey... you don't know what i do. but the Bible warns against bragging about your works of charity, so i'll just let it be.

>LOL honey... you don't know what i do. but the Bible warns
>against bragging about your works of charity, so i'll just
>let it be.

the bible also says, “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.



but u fucking asked for it. i listen to dipset cuz i'm a responsible adult & i have every right just as u have to produce pornography, which to me isn't exactly helping my community now is it? & i think it's fucked up when people "brag about what they do", but u attacked me talking about how ashamed u are of me & how these artists are monkeys...that shit is more abhorrent than a junkie CHOOSING to get high, imo.

i just said that i was MAD at you and you should be ashamed of yourself. and the reason why is because...

no... forget it.

forget i said anything.

and as for the porn thing... i said i was torn about it, didn't i?

because as much as i want to make some money, i also care about my community and the people in it. in the end i decided that it was probably not the best move for me.

so MY conscience is clear.

...the bible clears up that judgment scripture with "You shall know them by their fruits.." and "judge not by appearance, but judge righteous judgement". You have the right to call someone out if they're obviously doing or saying something negative, provided that you're living righteously. I dunno if AFKAP is living righteously, but he does have a point. I don't believe music makes anyone do anything, however, I do believe that for some, music can influence their actions.


------------------------------
This heah's the NOO and IMPROOVED sig, homey.

Check out summa dis artwork:

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/6081167

Myspace mentioned that they are currently havin' a "red x" problem with the pics on their site, so you may hafta right click on 'em and hit "show pictures" a coupla times in order to see them. However, they show up nicely if you have Mozilla Firefox.

but i am a minister's kid, so u're pretty much preaching to the choir, the usher board, the young peoples department & the janitor

you said it all right there, baby.

I don't even have to post.

As for the varying degrees of criminality in hip-hop music (including the Strong Arm Steady Gang quoted in my sig, who fall way short of the type of ignorance-advocation of the Dipset familia but who I know are far from apostles of purity)....there are certainly levels to everything...and there's a difference between ""The Godfather" and "State Property"....and like Kris Ex, I realize the world wouldn't be different if every rapper rhymed like Black Eyed Peas, but Afkap says it all, Dipset is basically on some "let's party, we're selling crack" (and spice in some senseless misogyny) nonsense, so...no love for them, at all.

Then, this is why I'm hardly buying new records any more...
____

Stiffed...fall in line, fall in love...http://www.stiffedmusic.com/video/smiths.mov

Please force them to keep counting your votes until we see who really won the election this year. Thanks.

Strong Arm Steady is still the gang motherfuckers....

It's not about you. " If you disagree with me "
Fuck that sheep shit ! Oh it's Cam fault, yeah blame a fucking record. How many African souls dope have devoured AND NOW IT's A TRAGEDY!!!! The fuck out here. I walk, eat, sleep,and shit in the hood. Crews and Records don't make one a junkie.

>Oh it's Cam fault, yeah blame a
>fucking record. How many African souls dope have devoured
>AND NOW IT's A TRAGEDY!!!! The fuck out here. I walk, eat,
>sleep,and shit in the hood. Crews and Records don't make one
>a junkie.

i'll give you a dimebag.

arsehole.

no
hov did that so hopefully u wouldnt have to go through that

unhappy scrappy? lol

lol

n/m

this argument is tired, flimsy, and hypocritical

now that i have read it, i can only say "PREACH Kris"

which i think is more the issue in his eyes since he goes like artists that have similar content yet are not as loved by hipster white guys

but someone already said it his argument is hypocritical and it seems he's willing to shield or ignore certain actions and content of certain rappers as long as it stays 'in the community' which i find to be pretty vile as well

i don't know if I care for the writing, but I approve of the message

You can understand Dipset and take them as simply music if you are from the hood and shit really ain't shocking you...but to those kids who don't know the harsh realities of the situation, it is an evil fantasy land to be playin' on.

I mean they ain't saying nothing worse than what Snoop and them been doing for a while, but they lack the humility and ability to seperate fact from fiction to their fans.

I mean it would be hipocritical to condemn them and still praise MOP, 213, 36-mafia and all them...BUT

Cam is a fool. I, being from the hood, take offense to a lot of his antics...for instance I was flipping through channels and he was on Rap City at a bar. He was showing his watch and chains and bragging about how much money he spends at this bar, and his boy comes by the table with stacks of hundreds...and Cam digs in his pocket and pulls out a few 20's and goes on and on about how he is so embarassed to be seen with 20's in his pocket and not 100's and shows his watch a few more times, etc.
Now if this was Ja Rule or Justin Timberlake or Lil' Bowwow or some fake suburban "urban music" star I would chalk it up to ignorance and wackness...but Cam is supposed to be from the hood? If he was from my hood and they saw him doing that shit on TV, cats would get jealous and make sure he gets robbed next time he dares to show his face around the hood again. That's how real hoods do shit...luckily, I been fortunate enough to not share that frame of mind.
But what disappoints me is seeing him do that, and then seeing all the broke-ass, poor-ass, nappy-headed, snotty-nosed, malnutritioned kids who listen to him and look up to him. They will never get paid like that. Why make it seem so shameful to be broke if you been broke before? So what if he paid his dues, he just gonna wipe his ass with dollar bills now in front of poor folks and keep preaching C.R.E.A.M.?
If you gonna be a hood success story, how you gonna give kids expectations like that when working at McDonald's is a step up from where they at. Like there ain't no inbetween. Don't people realize that's what rich white folks want? 100 or so rich black guys in the public eye for all the other poor black kids to envy and try to emulate. How's a poor black kid gonna make that type of paper so young? play ball, rap/produce, or...you guessed it, flip that powder, rock it up and sell it to your cousin. If you from the hood and you feelin' the dips either I ain't fucking with you cuz you just a thug, or you forgot where you from and the dips is the closest thing to the ignorance you admittedly miss a little bit.
Shit, I hated college cuz there were no crackheads, shopping carts in front of my house or people to be scared of...but now that I'm back I realize the reason I missed those things is because they represent where I'm from and they will always lure me back to the hood unless I help to change them. You ain't gotta be "conscious" or some kufi-head hippie mufucka to care about your environment and culture. The fact people embrace ignorance is a strange problem humans have never quite solved.

http://www.slate.com/id/2110861/

Not that they ever really left, but still.

Good post, as always. Your stuff is some of the most well thought-out and thought-provoking on the board.

i appreciate that

although, come playoff time we must not speak of this mutual respect cuz Peyton gonna give yall the Big Peyback

shoutin out crips something hard particularly this album

there's really no point in comparing who is worse or even picking out specific people for that matter being that we do all agree that its not just cam or snoop and its pretty much the genre as a whole

but on the other side when i see people make comments and write shit like this i wonder if they really have heard all of the stuff they do as a whole? especially santana because he is a little bit more 'aware' and doesnt try to just blatantly glorify all day every day without offering some type of 'knowledge'. even on this album he does say (though not alot) things about the shit he's seen and not in a glorifying way

bah im definitely definding him more than i care to do but i do find the reason behind his critique is not out of concern for whats going on like your commentary is, but rather than how we are perceived on the outside which we are entirely too concerned about

yea, and see even I'm partial to Snoop because he came out when I was in high school and at that time in my life he made a lot more sense to me...I suppose I'm just too old for the Dips to do the same

But the point I was making with Snoop, is that although he still talks about shit and gang affiliations on his albums, when you see Snoop being interviewed or whatever, he is Calvin Brodeus...humble, thankful and funny...Dips just seem funny to me, but I am biased I guess.
The other thing to though, is where I'm from gangs are a problem, but it ain't so much the gangs as much as it is the gansters...it's like dissing fraternaties as a whole, but realizing there's a couple of frat boys you know that are pretty cool...I met a lot of G's that was cool and good people. Gangs can be a gateway to a life of crime, but they can also save your life in the hood. That's why I never used to claim a set when cats would approach me, but I made sure I kept some friends around who did claim and I got more respect that way.

And as far as the Dips go, you are right. I really am not very familiar with a lot of their stuff, but my judgements are mainly based on the image they seem to voluntarily portray to the public. But shit, even Willie D has had some pretty insightful shit to say over the years, but he still "the bald-headed hoe dude"

Same shit

and on record..."can you control ya hoe? you gotta slap that bitch in herrr facccee"

cmon man don't be biased

nobody takes that shit seriously

shit i would gather the same about cam

and talks all his pimp shit, and then people from his neighborhood call in to say that Snoop is really a whipped house-husband and he just laughs. it's all in good fun... it's just shtick.

the Dips are also pretty humorous and aware of their comic potential of their particular routine. but at the same time, there's something just a little bit more malevolent about them... i can't put a finger on it, though

and that still doesnt say anything about him condoning gangs and subsquently violence

u find the dips to be more malevolent because they are condoning drugs and violence rather than pimps and violence

but my thing is this-we shouldnt even be arguing who is more worse-they all put the same shit out there

the difference is, folks have a bias based on the "quality" of music. if camron was mc of the year with the most anticipated album (ala 50 cent) we wouldnt be having this convo. if white boy hipsters werent eating his shit up we wouldnt he having this convo

everyone's a hypocrite. for kris ex, its much easier for him to lay blame solely on cam because he finds dude to be annoying and/or wack and undeserving of the praise some are giving him cam isnt even all that, he's certainly not a 'top mc' and there's very good chance he'll end up a fad. its the hype he's getting that is so infuriating to folks

i'm not a fan of his, either

and i find it loathesome when he throws Crip references into otherwise good songs

and i despise it when he continuously blurs the line between the worlds of popular music and pornography (and i'm a porno head!)

but i'm trying to figure out why i don't find him as offensive

duh
u think he has more artistic merit or more 'talent'

even if u don't like his music, you'd still take him over cam musically

in a decade

and i NEVER liked DoggyStyle AT. ALL.

i've never been a fan of Snoop.

no... i'm lying. i was excited about Deep Cover and "nuthin' but a G thang"... other than that, nope.

meanwhile, i liked lots of Camrom shit like "what mean the world to you" and shit

u're a hypocrite

when i was a child i enjoyed childish things. when i became a man, i put childish things away

2. "Deep Cover" was off a movie soundtrack and the song simply followed the theme of the movie

3. i never said i gave a fuck about cops. BLACK CHILDREN is what i care about.

>
>2. "Deep Cover" was off a movie soundtrack and the song
>simply followed the theme of the movie

oh u mean it was entertainment? kinda like what dipsets albums are?


>
>3. i never said i gave a fuck about cops. BLACK CHILDREN is
>what i care about.


u should give afuck about cops, cuz if they all quit working today there'd be anarchy....& not all cops are bad.

but you're gonna have to address the point at the heart of my argument sometime.

for me to have to explain it to you.

you know damn well what i am talking about, but you are just being disagreeable and quibbling over the most tangential aspects because you feel the need to defend the Dips.

who knows... maybe if i had really liked the Dips music to begin with i might have been more capable of distancing myself from the more horrific aspects of them... but i think it's also possible to like their music while admitting that perhaps they are "bad" for the community.

that, however, is what you are having a hard time bringing yourself to do and that is why you are attempting to critique me by drawing attention to the fact that once upon a time when i was teenager, i kinda liked some song about killing a cop.

that argument would hold water (and just barely) if only you were presently a teenager yourself... but you are not.

i have laundry to do, so i'm only gonna be online a few more minutes. i would prefer to use that time addressing substantive topics and not some petty shit.

>for me to have to explain it to you.
>
>you know damn well what i am talking about, but you are just
>being disagreeable and quibbling over the most tangential
>aspects because you feel the need to defend the Dips.

no i'm not being disagreeable & quibbling over anything that I think to be relevant to the matter at hand.

1) the writer made a poorly written article attacking ENTERTAINMENT by using REAL LIFE circumstances without ONCE bringing to light the whole REASONING behind this "gangsta/drug dealing" mentality. instead HE chose to attack a RAP groups ALBUM and "blame" them for serious fucking issues that have BEEN in our community that they are only a product of, not the cause of...but none of that shit is neither here nor there cuz it's motherfucking entertainment, that i as a grown womban chooses to enjoy in the privacy of my headphones/home....made by grown men...therefore ur "argument" & the writers loose ass thesis is fuking moot.


>
>who knows... maybe if i had really liked the Dips music to
>begin with i might have been more capable of distancing
>myself from the more horrific aspects of them... but i think
>it's also possible to like their music while admitting that
>perhaps they are "bad" for the community.
>

they're music is no different than watching city of god...no fucking different.


>that, however, is what you are having a hard time bringing
>yourself to do and that is why you are attempting to
>critique me by drawing attention to the fact that once upon
>a time when i was teenager, i kinda liked some song about
>killing a cop.

u're the one that brought deep cover into this. i never said that what the dips are talking about is the pinnacle of morality, but.i.dont.want.it.to be....when i wanna hear high morals i listen to stevie not fucking camron...just as i'm sure when u wanna see a high moral film u insert ghandi as opposed to scarface.


>
>that argument would hold water (and just barely) if only you
>were presently a teenager yourself... but you are not.


motherbucker u don't fucking need to remind me. i'm not a teenager & that is why it is okay if i choose to fucking listen to decadent rap music, if i fucking like..,...need i again bring u watching PORNOGRAPHY into this, or should i leave that alone?


>
>i have laundry to do, so i'm only gonna be online a few more
>minutes. i would prefer to use that time addressing
>substantive topics and not some petty shit.


i'm gonna ignore ur stupid effing comment

i never cosigned with kris ex completely, though i am definitely with him on the general idea. so i would prefer that you stick to addressing things that *I* said rather than the original article.

still...

>1) the writer made a poorly written article attacking
>ENTERTAINMENT by using REAL LIFE circumstances without ONCE
>bringing to light the whole REASONING behind this
>"gangsta/drug dealing" mentality.

we can go around in circles forever about the "reasoning" behind it, but we will still never get to the question of whether "celebrating" it is necessarily a healthy thing for our community and for our individual psyches.

>i as a grown womban chooses to enjoy in
>the privacy of my headphones/home....made by grown
>men...therefore ur "argument" & the writers loose ass thesis
>is fuking moot.

no... the fact is that this music is sold to children, and arguably AIMED at children - who are the largest consumers of hip-hop music since they have the disposable income for it. this shit is NOT aimed at some over-30 shirt-and-tie wearing niggas and you know it.

>they're music is no different than watching city of god...no
>fucking different.

hmmm... actually there IS a very big difference between the spirit that informs City of God and that of Dipset. or maybe that has more to do with the maturity and morality level of the viewer.

it's like when Spike Lee said that of all the new emerging black filmmakers he had inspired, he really liked John Singleton and approved of Boyz N the Hood because of the message it was trying to convey about and against black-on-black violence. however, he was dismayed to find out how many people missed the point when he watched it with an audience of black youths and they were cheering "YEAH! KILL THAT NIGAA!" when Dough Boy shot those guys at the end.

in short, Dipset does not have the moral center of Cidade de Deus.

>u're the one that brought deep cover into this.

because someone accused me of being a Snoop fan, which i never was. i mention in passing that i liked "deep cover" when it came out and people want to make a big issue out of it... caption devoted a whole post to arguing that i am morally questionable because i liked "deep cover" years ago.

i hate these digressive arguments.

i never
>said that what the dips are talking about is the pinnacle of
>morality, but.i.dont.want.it.to be....when i wanna hear high
>morals i listen to stevie not fucking camron...

see... but i'm not worried about YOU (ie a "grownasswoman"); i'm worried about the kids who don't KNOW Stevie. today, Camron IS their Stevie, and that's my problem... not the fact that Dipset is out there at all - there IS a place for them, even for a teenage audience - but the fact that they (and artists like them) are at the center of the culture... they are the "norm," receiving NAACP Image Awards and shit (not Dipset themselves, obviously... but artists not too different from them)

just as i'm
>sure when u wanna see a high moral film u insert ghandi as
>opposed to scarface.

i personally would never watch Scarface for any reason. weven when i was like, 13 i thought it was an ugly, silly, stupid, amoral mess of a film and i think so even more now. even the comedic value of Al Pacino's over-the-top performance isn't enough to interest me now.

>motherbucker u don't fucking need to remind me. i'm not a
>teenager & that is why it is okay if i choose to fucking
>listen to decadent rap music, if i fucking like..,...need i
>again bring u watching PORNOGRAPHY into this, or should i
>leave that alone?

bring pornography into it all you want. unless you can prove that i suggested it was okay for pornography to be mainstream entertainment (which you cannot do) then it is a non-issue.

hell, you could even make a *TINY* point if you could argue that the porn i watch is misogynistic and is probably unhealthy even for adults. but, alas, the kind of porn i generally like is not!

(I'm assuming your argument is still degree of effect, not causation of problems)

Why are these black children going to be unable to put childish things away, when you were able to?

Are they lacking in someway that makes the more susceptible?
Were you personally more moral, more resilient, more intelligent, stronger in to these negative messages than they are?

one
k. orr

>when i was a child i enjoyed childish things. when i became
>a man, i put childish things away
>
>2. "Deep Cover" was off a movie soundtrack and the song
>simply followed the theme of the movie
>
>3. i never said i gave a fuck about cops. BLACK CHILDREN is
>what i care about.

but at the same time, the milk that you drank as a baby does influence the way you grow.

as much as i say that i pushed away these things myself, i can't say that they haven't affected me in various ways. i'm coarser than my father, less shocked by villainy and wickedness, more likely to find humor in the horrific, less interested in subtlety.

and i don't even listen to rap music anymore for the most part... imagine if i did!

kids are becoming coarser and coarser at increasingly young ages. i HOPE they can shake MOST of it off as they grow older, but some of that shit sticks with you.

>but at the same time, the milk that you drank as a baby does
>influence the way you grow.

What age children are we talking about?
You'll agree that "impressionability" is greater @ younger ages.

>as much as i say that i pushed away these things myself, i
>can't say that they haven't affected me in various ways. i'm
>coarser than my father, less shocked by villainy and
>wickedness, more likely to find humor in the horrific, less
>interested in subtlety.

Although this looks like a tangent, aren't kids from "rough" environments seen plenty ov villainy and wickedness? I would imagine even a kid from a Nigerian Suburbs has seen more than his Black American counter part. Black children in rural areas see a different kind of wickedness than ones in the inner city...

..No child lives this polyanna existence that we all want for our children, (except maybe those Laguna Beach kids), but it seems in the various things that children see, in their own families, neighborhoods, at schools, in the community at large, through media - it seems to me that hip hop is but a small small sliver.

>and i don't even listen to rap music anymore for the most
>part... imagine if i did!

I'm not sure what would happen.

>kids are becoming coarser and coarser at increasingly young
>ages. i HOPE they can shake MOST of it off as they grow
>older, but some of that shit sticks with you.

Coarser...
Subtlety....

hmmm,
k. orr

not that killing anybody is right, but if you're a crooked cop in a business where arguments are settled with gunplay, it's a crooked cop occupational hazard.
____

Stiffed...fall in line, fall in love...http://www.stiffedmusic.com/video/smiths.mov

Please force them to keep counting your votes until we see who really won the election this year. Thanks.

Albums I've Been Listening to NonStop Recently

E-Rule, "Cold Currentz" (one of the most underrated emcees out, dope beats, ferocious delivery, street knowledge blended with 5% theology, ridiculously well crafted multiple-syllable rhyme schemes, how are people sleeping on this cat?)

but I guess Cam is somewhat of a parody too, even if he doesn't know it

but yea, I mean Snoop makes fun of himself all the time

I laugh at Cam a lot, but sadly he seems serious

look @ jim jones. all i keep hearing is how nice and smart the cat is

so you REALLLY need to shutup

but at the same time, i don't think it's "right"

for me, it's a bit of a subculture... a demi-monde. i feel it has its place, but i don't like it when people like Snoop and Too Short try to fuse porn with "mainstream" entertainment


sorry to say, but i actually agreed with O'Reilly when he campaigned to get Snoop kicked off that Muppet Show joint. i feel kinda odd about a porn star being in entertainment aimed at kids.

>but at the same time, i don't think it's "right"
>
>for me, it's a bit of a subculture... a demi-monde.

so's drug use kap

i feel
>it has its place, but i don't like it when people like Snoop
>and Too Short try to fuse porn with "mainstream"
>entertainment

porn is porn. ur analogy is akin to when folks say murder is wrong yet go & bomb 100,000 iraqi civilians...same fucking difference.


>
>
>sorry to say, but i actually agreed with O'Reilly when he
>campaigned to get Snoop kicked off that Muppet Show joint. i
>feel kinda odd about a porn star being in entertainment
>aimed at kids.

o'reilly? this guy: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1013043mackris1.html

that o'reilly? u gotta be fucking kidding me

>>but at the same time, i don't think it's "right"
>>
>>for me, it's a bit of a subculture... a demi-monde.
>
>so's drug use kap

it has its place as well. i don't know if it's mainstream entertainment either.

it's a tricky thing, because i have no problem with drug use, but i DO have a problem with drug selling. it's a contradiction, i know.

but the world we live in is not perfect (as you have frequently reminded me)

but you were saying "what if drugs were legal? what if this were Amsterdamn?"

that would be great. i think drugs are great... unfortunately, in the current American climate, it's designed so that the drug game spills over into a lot of violence and social decay. and it's usually MY people who end up bearing the brunt of that.

forgive me for having just a *little* problem with that.

it's funny to me, though, that you go crazy about Eminem's racism which is basically some silly ignorance on his part that can never harm us as a people, but then you go to great lengths to justify (or at least minimize) shit tha is eating us from the inside.

it's okay... do you.

> i feel
>>it has its place, but i don't like it when people like Snoop
>>and Too Short try to fuse porn with "mainstream"
>>entertainment
>
>porn is porn. ur analogy is akin to when folks say murder
>is wrong yet go & bomb 100,000 iraqi civilians...same
>fucking difference.

no.

i'm saying that people used to know that there is a time and place for everything. i'm not ashamed of my porn viewing, but at the same time i don't exactly bring up the subject at the office Holiday luncheon.

i don't like the fact that people like Snoop, Mystikal, Too Short, and even Digital Underground are acting like porn is "just another aspect of the entertainment biz that we're branching into"

it gives mixed signals to young fans

go watch any of the Black Street Hookers series or Jake Steed's Freaks, Whoes and Flows... it's full of 18 year-old girls who express in their pre-fuck interviews that they want to be singers and actresses and they're hoping that being in porn will serve as a "stepping stone" to that.

or even more disturbingly, see the number of girls who participate in the porno because they think Jake might be able to introduce them to Snoop.

i don't like it. that's the reason i made that "can you make porn without being a sleazeball" post.

>>sorry to say, but i actually agreed with O'Reilly when he
>>campaigned to get Snoop kicked off that Muppet Show joint. i
>>feel kinda odd about a porn star being in entertainment
>>aimed at kids.
>
>o'reilly? this guy:
>http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1013043mackris1.html
>
>that o'reilly? u gotta be fucking kidding me

didn't say i agree with everything about him. just the Snoop/Muppets issue.

When y'all argue I imagine the scene in Basic Instict where they are throwing each other on the walls and ripping each others clothes off.

Just wanted to throw that one in.

Im waiting patiently for the rebuttle, especially about the Eminem linkage(either way, fuck him).

snoop's fucked up to

but I really liked his segment on sportscenter though with the peewee football

damn, I am biased

i think there's definitely room for hood representation...but I am just sick of the "greedy is cool" trend (snoop included damnit)

associating that with...the Dips?

Stray bullets started in 2002.

i mean, this is a piece specifically about the dips, not all hip hop.

by the tone
its convenient to pick music you dont like to prove a bigger, altruistic point. and im sure if you were to bring TI and MOP to his attention he'll try and change it to show 'my ignorance is not as bad as your ignorance' because that really what it is

i think he's mad that there is seemingly some kind of big attraction towards cam and the dips just because some hipsters play it at their corny mashups. he gives cam way too much credit considering he finds the album to be so bad.

plus when talking about glorification of violence and drugs in hip hop, pointing out a relatively new, relatively low seller like cam and not others is hardly effective. he's trying to play the cop rounding up low level dealers when the bigger cats are still out on the street...and he's letting them bigger cats slide because theyre giving him stuff he likes

Cam and the Dips' influence on NYC youth is much much much greater than M.O.P. (or T.I. for that matter)... I saw half of NY's teenagers wearing pink and square earrings this past summer, and not 'cause Billy Danze was rockin' em.

I agree that it's a slippery slope argument when you specifically target one group or artist, but there is definitely a point to be made about the Diplomats being one of the most negative rap groups/movements in recent memory... and it *is* a movement. Remember there was a whole gang of kids who called themselves Dip Set who were running a major drug ring in Rochester, NY. These guys are emulated/revered up close by impressionable hood youngsters and from afar by hipsters and white boys. But their message, I don't care how much you support them, is undeniably negative and incredibly misogynstic.

gang violence has been a major issue in that city for over a decade. i dont have any idea of the origin of this gang but there is very good chance that these guys were around before cam was.

apart from clothing i cant really say cam and his movement has has that widespread impact on drugs, violence, and misogyny in the past what, 2-4 years to merit that much of the blame

... i live across the street from an intermediate school and work around the corner from a high school... I see the influence. I've always thought that Dip Set, more than anything, portrayed themselves as the coolest, most reckless kids from your high school.

AS for Rochester, according to the reports I read, they definitely named themselves after Dip Set... it was young kids.

>AS for Rochester, according to the reports I read, they
>definitely named themselves after Dip Set... it was young
>kids.

critics (not saying you) can take the easy way out and blame the Dips for being visible purveyors of the lifestyle, but they are just a reference for these kids - I wouldn't be surprised if this gang is affiliated w/ the real Dipset through several degrees but that's not what it's about.

Dipset was a name for these kids - they were running around, being a real threat to people in Rochester, but years ago there was the Black Mob and G-Boys (short for Ghetto Boys)and others I'm sure, jumping people in city neighborhoods for reasons (if they were white, looked rich, etc.) or for no reason at all.

it is really more about destroyed communities and how these kids develop instead of the names they give themselves or their style of dress.

basically, if they're coming up in a bad situation, gang activity is likely - the kids are going to be trouble in our communities regardless of what they call themselves.

>basically, if they're coming up in a bad situation, gang
>activity is likely

that read badly - I mean, if they are likely to join a gang due to all the negative factors in their lives, it would happen and they would behave the way they do regardless if Harlem's Dips make music or not

'cause I remember you making a "That Harlem arrogance is back!" positive style commentary (or at least it seemed positive at the time) about them a year or two ago.

come the fuck ON people!

recklessness, weed-smoking, misogyny, violence, etc.

>recklessness, weed-smoking, misogyny, violence, etc.


cuz none of that shit happened in harlem prior to the dips

you're part of the problem.


they definitely aren't HELPING anything.

from bambaata and the very first wave of NYC rappers through to onyx or whoever, theres always been a link (maybe it was more tenuous back then, i dont know) between the two. this is nothing new.

if you live in the hood or any rough place, you're gonna have friends that are in gangs or at least are affiliated with em. and the South Bronx wasn't exactly a plush suburb.

the difference is that Bambataa made up the Zulu Nation to fight those things, whereas a lot of these cats are condoning drugs, violence, shit like that in pretty much every song.

the thing is i enjoy some of Dipset's music too as well as a lot of "gangsta" rap, but that doesn't make it any more right to condone these things. kids ARE affected by it, no matter how you wanna try to deny it.
when people say "well it's the parent's job to protect them from that", it's idiotic because a lot of these kids don't have parents around. a lot have single moms who work a couple jobs and don't have time for traditional parenting. so you have MC's who claim to be for the streets, but when you confront them about their lyrics use the "parent" cop-out, even though they know damn well how little parenting is done.

(c) charles barkley

i don't EVER see the dips pandering to youths....their albums are MADE for responsible adults.....kids are ALWAYS sticking their noses where they don't belong. it's not THEIR fault if some 12 year old that shouldnt be listening, listens to his albums

thats what parental advisory stickers are for

& marijuana is ILLEGAL too, so therefore all of you are hypocrites

and if they weren't selling their shit to 16 year-olds on 106 & Park, THEN maybe you would have a SHRED of an argument!

>and if they weren't selling their shit to 16 year-olds on
>106 & Park, THEN maybe you would have a SHRED of an
>argument!


selling an EDITED album is not the same as selling the UNEDITED version. bet uncut is the only programming on that channel that is UNEDITED. when i was in walmart 3 weeks ago they had every diplomat related album EDITED...so wtf u saying?

you're the one who's always on here going, "kids in Harlem LOVE the dips! Don't make me get my camera and take pictures!", and stuff like that. Take that "walmart only sells the edited version" argument somewhere else, 'cause even you know that it's very easy for kids to get their hands on the real version of this. Much easier than it is for them to stay up and watch porn. (and in that case, you're putting it on the same footing as porn, which is the point of the article anyway.)

kids are ALWAYS gonna be listening to & looking at things they're not supposed to ....so should we begin censorship in the name of the disobedient children?


let's burn books int he middle of town....no! better yet, lets do like calvin butts & steamroll all the bad cds & make them learn their lesson that way

I don't think anyone on here is advocating censorship.

It's more that you won't recognize that this stuff does mess kids' heads up somewhat (and obviously it's not the only thing, or the main thing, but still). I mean you've pretty much admitted that in comparing it to pornography. But instead you bring George W. Bush or pornography or whatever up, to avoid addressing it directly.

>I don't think anyone on here is advocating censorship.
>
>It's more that you won't recognize that this stuff does mess
>kids' heads up somewhat (and obviously it's not the only
>thing, or the main thing, but still). I mean you've pretty
>much admitted that in comparing it to pornography. But
>instead you bring George W. Bush or pornography or whatever
>up, to avoid addressing it directly.


i never said this is the best thing for a child to be listening to....but a child shouldnt be listening to it in the first place!


there i addressed it...are u happy now?

with the fact that most of the kids in Harlem love them and obviously are listening to them? (and the fact that you seem to celebrate that and use it as a measure of how hot the Dips are)?

>with the fact that most of the kids in Harlem love them and
>obviously are listening to them? (and the fact that you seem
>to celebrate that and use it as a measure of how hot the
>Dips are)?

& their antics

by talking about how kids in Harlem love the dips. And you even use it as a way of talking about how hot the dips are. That's different from just accepting that kids are always gonna be trying to get at things that they shouldn't.

>selling an EDITED album is not the same as selling the
>UNEDITED version. bet uncut is the only programming on that
>channel that is UNEDITED. when i was in walmart 3 weeks ago
>they had every diplomat related album EDITED...so wtf u
>saying?

______________________________

*TWINNING*

aka, walmart ready

as if all popular entertainment should be on some Mary Poppins shit

____________________

"I went from livin in a hungry ghetto, to white girls sayin "Wow what a lovely bezel, diamonds in a yummy yellow" -- Hell Rell

"You got heart? Fight me, I'll dearly depart wifey" -- Killa!!!!

"Just ask ya posse, how I flash Versace, one strap, all black Huaraches... chea!" -- J.R. Writer

"We race foreign cars, custom models, drop top mustard Tahoe... we like the Muskateers, trained by Cus D'Amato" -- Killa!



http://profiles.myspace.com/users/2377167

i listen to it....what's the fucking difference?

when i buy or rent porno (rather, i should say when i used to do so... i'm actually not into it that much anymore) i got it from specialized stores that were for ADULTS ONLY.

when i watched it, it was in the presence of ADULTS ONLY.

when i discuss it, i do it with OTHER ADULTS.

when HMV and Virgin experimented with selling porn in their regular DVD section that was accessible to kids, I WAS PISSED.

>when i buy or rent porno (rather, i should say when i used
>to do so... i'm actually not into it that much anymore) i
>got it from specialized stores that were for ADULTS ONLY.

so? and? that's like saying that when u buy a gun u got it from a licensed dealer therefore shooting people with it is more credible


>
>when i watched it, it was in the presence of ADULTS ONLY.

what the fuck u think i'm blasting the dips up & down lenox avenue?


>
>when i discuss it, i do it with OTHER ADULTS.

& what are u guys? gymboree patrons? is this chuck e. cheese?



>
>when HMV and Virgin experimented with selling porn in their
>regular DVD section that was accessible to kids, I WAS
>PISSED.


yeah, but once it leaves the confines of that store, with technology the way it is anyone can see it. hell, i can go on soulseek right now & dl 1,000 pornos if i wanted.

because it looks like you're just talking in a fever dream now

>>when i buy or rent porno (rather, i should say when i used
>>to do so... i'm actually not into it that much anymore) i
>>got it from specialized stores that were for ADULTS ONLY.
>
>so? and? that's like saying that when u buy a gun u got it
>from a licensed dealer therefore shooting people with it is
>more credible

should i point out the holes in that analogy or would you rather identify them yourself

>>when i watched it, it was in the presence of ADULTS ONLY.
>
>what the fuck u think i'm blasting the dips up & down lenox
>avenue?

i told you: i'm worried about the kids who ARE.

>>when HMV and Virgin experimented with selling porn in their
>>regular DVD section that was accessible to kids, I WAS
>>PISSED.
>
>yeah, but once it leaves the confines of that store, with
>technology the way it is anyone can see it. hell, i can go
>on soulseek right now & dl 1,000 pornos if i wanted.

exactly. and THAT is a problem.

enough for now... i'm gonna go wash my drawls.

(and by that, i dont mean they have to be saints, just set a reasonably good example) it hardly helps that you have idiots like the dips filling their mind with stupidity.

on the other hand, i dont think its good that people always want hip hop to be valiantly bound to the moral high ground all the time.

i LISTEN to it, what's the difference?

its not being beamed out on commercial TV for all to hear. its much harder to get hold of.

dont know what your point is though in relation to them being role models.

bet uncut shows ass, crotch & tittiesl...all a kid gotta do is stay up late & voila! sex. in manhattan, the cable access channel here, beginning at 11:30 pm has HARDCORE PORNOGRAPHY for free....all u gotta do is have basic cable to see it. & beleive u me, it's much easier for a kid to sneak & look at ponr than u could imagine...pornography is more accessible than music

we all know the single moms who work 2 or even 3 jobs just to get by and have 3 kids. shit, that's my best friend's mom right there.

you're always gonna have kids who are smart enough to separate reality and fantasy, good and bad, etc. but there's plenty of kids that won't...or the lines blend. these MC's know that kids whose parents aren't around exist...a lot of them come from the same conditions, but they still insist that it's the parent's job to watch them. that's true, but it doesn't mean what they're doing isn't negatively affecting these kids.

if you dont like it... dont support it... and if you dont want your kids to like it. Educate them against it to your will. Period.

____________________

"I went from livin in a hungry ghetto, to white girls sayin "Wow what a lovely bezel, diamonds in a yummy yellow" -- Hell Rell

"You got heart? Fight me, I'll dearly depart wifey" -- Killa!!!!

"Just ask ya posse, how I flash Versace, one strap, all black Huaraches... chea!" -- J.R. Writer

"We race foreign cars, custom models, drop top mustard Tahoe... we like the Muskateers, trained by Cus D'Amato" -- Killa!



http://profiles.myspace.com/users/2377167

as a society

ancient Romans thought that watching Christians being torn to death by lions was entertainment too

objected to in this post from you, Af.

YOU find Porn entertaining, right? i mean you've already said that you don't consider it "right"...but you hesitate to label it wrong, for what seems like...

self-interest reasons.

i mean you ARE going by at least a loosely biblical interpretation of values/morals/ethics here, is what i'm guessing -- especially since you paraphrased the bible earlier in the thread. so, given all that...

"the things you find entertaining say a lot about you"

^^^ how does this statement NOT totally spear your own chosen hobby?

pardon the pun.

"the things you find entertaining say a lot about you as a society"

I interpret he is saying our society is all messed up. but unless afkap lives outside of the the USA or exclusively on the Bill Gates mountain estate out west, "us" is the correct word. you can't just conveniently separate yourself from society.

and if afkap includes himself in the "society", he still cannot claim that moral high ground because of some of the things he indulges in (I can only address porn and the 2 snoop songs, regardless of what age you were when you supported it or that it was on a soundtrack keeping in theme with the movie, because afkap acknowledged it in this post - I'm not to trying to get personal or accusatory, but this is my only frame of reference).

if people really listen, they can hear words of awarness and accountability (admittedly not a lot, but they're there) in cam's own words - from "take em to church" - just ONE example:

(to pastor mase) not a diss dog, we just heard the frontin
do harlem a favor, get a church or sumtin
a rec center, in the winter, where the youth can play
they don't even shoot the J, sell drugs, shoot and spray
I'm no better, still move a deuce a day,
that's 2 keys, I still move the yay(yo)

whether he and his crew still, in fact, move said "yay" is a debate for another day, but here, in this mode of expression, Cam's tone is a lot like many critics in this post - he's not even being judgmental but basically saying, "you putting yourself out there like you are righteous - why not give back to the harlem community you came from and still have many ties to being that you are one of its most recognized, successful and praised products? but then again, I can't even question you because I still sell."

how can one so passionately advocate for protection of our youth from amoral rappers yet support the porn industry, where youth (late teens to early 20s) from every ethnic and cultural backgrounds are exploited for empty promises of steps toward fame and wealth. I saw a report about how belladonna and other porn "actresses" progressively took stronger drugs to deal with their lives and the profession- I read about strippers who do the same - do they even use condoms in movies anymore? everyone has a choice, but their lives are almost as sad as some people trapped in the hood.

it's easy to point a finger at others, but hardest to point to ourselves first (that goes for me too and esp. for krisex)

i said i like porn, but i didn't say i was in support of the porn INDUSTRY. like scorpion said, that scene DEFINITELY needs to be cleaned up.

when grown-ass men and women decide to fuck on film, i don't see who is hurt by it.

i DON'T, however, like the exploitation of girls who are not even old enough to vote... there's a big difference, man. i have no idea of the concept of pornography (which in many societies is a regular part of life and has been for millennia) but i don't like how it is run in the United States.

i feel the same about drugs. if grown-ass men and women want to use drugs in the privacy of their own homes... let them knock themselves out. unfortunately, the drug industry in the US spawns a lot of violence and social decay that i do NOT like.

>i DON'T, however, like the exploitation of girls who are not
>even old enough to vote... there's a big difference, man. i
>have no idea of the concept of pornography (which in many
>societies is a regular part of life and has been for
>millennia) but i don't like how it is run in the United
>States.
>
>i feel the same about drugs. if grown-ass men and women want
>to use drugs in the privacy of their own homes... let them
>knock themselves out. unfortunately, the drug industry in
>the US spawns a lot of violence and social decay that i do
>NOT like.

I got all your points, however I was not referring to the underage issue. I saw a tv news feature about porn "starlet" Belladonna and how she acquired several STDs and was introduced to all kinds of drugs because she couldn't cope with being in the industry - too sad because she is .

she's lucky to be doing good in her professional life and better in her personal life. there although I am sure she was legal when she got into it, like most, mentally she was still not prepared for such a lifestyle. I view it as being more morally reprehensible that these young, but technically legal girls are welcomed into a profession that can break and corrupt them and jeopardize their lives all for the mighty dollar than for a ghetto rapper to sell a mixture of his experiences and characterizations on record or videos.

I used your and others comments in this thread to underscore the fact that we are all to blame for these moral atheists and your line about how the things that one is entertained by says a lot about one's society is valid, and summarizes how we are all at fault and how widespread greed and emphasis on the bottom line have corrupted and skewed our value systems more than the celebrities we admire. where there is a young brother that might dress like cam and rep dipset through his teens, there is a sister that might go into porn or strip club dancing to make ends meet and try to pursue her dream of being a singer or actress and end up ruined for life.

I agree with many of your points about social decay in our neglected communities, but think there are more devious and irreversible issues that are worth condemning - my main problem w/ the kris ex article.

if i want to look at pictures and films of people fucking in the privacy of my own home, then that is my own business. i derive a particular kind of pleasure from it (which is, believe it or not, just as artistic as it is purely sexual) and i am old enough to understand it and not let it rule over the way i view women, sex, or life in general.

see... i don't think porn is "wrong" at all. i know my rhetoric seems to tinged with Judeo-Christian ethics, but that's mostly due to my upbringing. i'm not a Christian any more, but i still believe that there is a lot of good wisdom in the Bible.

in moderation, i don't think pornography is immoral at all. almost anything in life is okay in moderation. porno is not "wrong."

what IS "wrong" is the way that pornography is being allowed to swamp our community and influence the morals of the youth.

see... i'm a throwback to the era when society had more levels and subtlety was prized.

you know that Toni Morrison quote: "most of my race has forgotten the beauty of meaning much by saying little"? that's how i often feel... one problem that i have ALWAYS had with hip-hop (even when i was like, 16 years old) is the way that it made a virtue of bluntness and explicitness.

when Marvin Gaye sang "i didn't make it, baby, playing by the rules" he said more in that one line than the hardest gangsta can say in an entire verse... but you would probably understand what he was saying IF YOU WERE AN ADULT.

it used to be that there were some things that were meant for grown-ups and other things meant for children. these days, we want to believe that "what is good for the goose is good for the gander" and just market to everybody.

i think that if you're not a grown-up and into porn, there's no reason why you should know the names of porn stars. i don't like the way that people like Jenna Jameson and the like are almost mainstream celebrities now.

and i ESPECIALLY don't like the fact that rappers are putting out porn. because even if this material is supposedly marketed towards adults, i think it initiates children into that world before they're ready for it.

when i was 10 years old, i would have bought ANYTHING that had Michael Jackson's name or face on it. ANYTHING. and if Michael Jackson had put out a porn, you best believe that i would be buying it. and because i wanted to BE Michael Jackson, i would have thought that porn was a reasonable career route for me as well.

you hear what i'm saying, Fone? i don't think porn is "wrong" but at the same time, it's not "right"... for kids, that is.

i mean, even when you get to the concept of profanity and explicit content in music... i'm not against it. it's nothing new: it's ALWAYS been there. but it wasn't aimed at kids.

back in the day when i was a kid, when we had parties in the house we played all the records that kids liked. then when we got tired, we went to beds and the grown-ups pulled out their Blowfly, their Rudy Ray Moore, their Richard Pryor records, their Redd Foxx and Millie Jackson records, and they partied like grownups. there was a clear separation.

what do they play at kids' parties these days? apart from old Will Smith shit, and maybe a few R&B joints and early Bow Wow and Romeo, i can't think of any music out there that's even appropriate.

people are letting their five year-old daughters dress like Trina and shake it like a salt shaker while they cheer on "oh, she's so cute!" and people think that it's okay.

i go to someone's wedding and the DJ's playing unedited versions hip-hop cuts in front children and grey-haired old ladies. i confront the dude on it and he is genuinely puzzled at why i'm upset.

i am not against this kind of material IN GENERAL, but there is a time and place for it. hell, even when i was a teen most people listened to NWA on headphones. kids today seem to think that there's nothing wrong at all to be in a public space screaming out the lyrics to some deliberately vile Dipset song the same way i sang "candy girl"

i respect kris ex...he's wrote alotta decent articles for xxl, source, vibe, etc.

but fuck him for this.

matter fact, fuck all y'all cosigning.

him and y'all cosigning are rediculous w/ your arguements.

tying cam to that whole bullet, pregnant mother analogy is great way of proving your point...i think nazi's from wwII would respect how he bit their "make a scapegoat outta some body they don't like for a problem they don't like" shit.

cam and his ilk's shit talking, bragadocio, and bravado is ruining the black community?

muthafucka, that's rediculous.

since when has "i got the biggest dick, i'm the shit, look at my cash, i got women, don't fuck w/ me" *not* been apart of hip-hop. did y'all not really listen to kane and ra? so essentially, your saying that hip-hop is teaching kids to not respect women, authority, whatever? fuck outta here, be a parent. start some programs in the community if you wanna help.

this shit is giving kids jobs, keeping them from robbing your hipster-jean wearing ass by keeping them in the studio w/ mpc's.

but those co-signing in here tend to have and agenda and think that because the music they like has got eighting congo solos w/ screetching on top deticated to physics or that it chops up a record unearthed from king tuts tomb, it's better than e'rrything else. y'all obviously ain't really listen to any of those diplomat records or songs like "who i am", "how i feel", a gang of other records where these mindless killing machines y'all making them out to be, are lamenting on loss, their mothers, and black upliftment.

the hood is the hood not because of cam or anyother rapper. the hood is the hood because of the effects of jim crow laws that are still effecting education to this day. the hood is the hood because of crack. the hood is the hood cause folks haven't been able to pull together and solve the problems, mainly cause of the first two. the hood is the hood because of a lotta things but not cause of cam or any other rapper.


i rarely get angry or attack other people's shit on here, i love y'all. but this shit is infueriating, even if i ain't like the dips. even removed from that, this is some shit kkk-conservitives who had a deep seeded, generations deep hatred for minorities would say.

>tying cam to that whole bullet, pregnant mother analogy is
>great way of proving your point...i think nazi's from wwII
>would respect how he bit their "make a scapegoat outta some
>body they don't like for a problem they don't like" shit.

like I said, I didn't like the actual article but I can see his point manifested everyday


>not respect women, authority, whatever? fuck outta here, be
>a parent. start some programs in the community if you wanna
>help.

Oh, I do. But I also realize I must do the same with my music. Not everybody has to, but I do. Music and entertainment are not simply music and entertainment anymore, I'm sorry. Arnold Schwartzeneger is the governor of fuckin California. Entertainment and mass communication is the new politics. People don't care about that shit anymore. Why do you think W got voted back in? It wasn't because the rock stars failed to get young people out. it was because your average American doesn't understand politics like John Kerry, they are on W's level. People watch TV and get on the net for everything now. The music IS important and much more than entertainment...but too many of us musicians are dumb, greedy fucks who don't see that.

>but those co-signing in here tend to have and agenda and
>think that because the music they like has got eighting
>congo solos w/ screetching on top deticated to physics or
>that it chops up a record unearthed from king tuts tomb,

that was funny. I likes.
>


>the hood is the hood because of the effects of jim crow laws
>that are still effecting education to this day. the hood is
>the hood because of crack. the hood is the hood cause folks
>haven't been able to pull together and solve the problems,
>mainly cause of the first two.
You dead wrong! (c)Mystikal
the first two reasons are valid, but the true answer lies in the third thing you said...it is because folks haven't been able to pull together and solve these problems. That is the most important. That other shit is excuses by now. that's fucked up it has to be that way, but that's the way it is. Now what is Cam doing to help folks pull together and solve problems? He ain't the only one, but he definitely ain't helping shit.


>i rarely get angry or attack other people's shit on here, i
>love y'all. but this shit is infueriating, even if i ain't
>like the dips. even removed from that, this is some shit
>kkk-conservitives who had a deep seeded, generations deep
>hatred for minorities would say.

what?
go back and read that again. the deep-seeded kkk shit is the plan that is working to a T. You said it yourself, Jim Crow laws and crack...that's the shit the white folks did and that's the shit yall say is good "he got that crack" or whatever the nohomos say.

but like i said it ain't cause of rap. imo.

so, your saying that you restrict your listening out of a sense of responsiblity? you wouldn't listen to louis armstrong 'cause he was a large proponent of weed? i'm all for being responsible in my music, but e'rry body has that side and some shit other people don't agree w/, if your being honest w/ your music.

do i agree w/ crack sales? nah. do i understand why it happens and at the same time, know alot of what i do is wrong? yes.

we all do bullshit. it's part of being human. and if your really listening, they *are* saying some shit that is intellegent along w/ the bullshit.

agree things fucked up and things do need to be brought to light, in political areas or otherwise, but at the same time, i ain't tryna hear a whole album about g-dub's foreign policy.


dog, IT'S A BIG ASS CIRCLE. jim crow is not a fucking excuse, it's reality is held in the busted ass windows in schools. in the computers from 1986. they still using 6 inch floppy and shit.

what is cam doing to help things? are you kidding? how about all the brothers and sisters from harlem employed by them. the producers, the bodyguards, the street teams, the a&r's. the shops they've set up. w/ the music they make. and i'll say it again, go through the music again, espc. santana. if you listen, he saying shit that would suprise you.

and you never said "yo, that shit is dope"? dope? it's the same thing as saying "that's that crack" in 2005.

This is taken from the Village Voice Pass and Jop 2003 Poll. It's Kris Ex's ballot:

http://villagevoice.com/specials/pazznjop/03/critic.php?criticid=1251&poll_year=2003&type=A&keyword=

I smell piff and hypocrisy.

His blog post definitley brings up some good points though. Mainly about the proximity. That being said maybe Dead Prez bring out the same feelings in White Pizza Delivery Guys that the Dips bring out in Harlem residents.

and 50 seems to be one of his favorite artist.

dude just has an agenda, i see.



Albums
# artist title label points
1 Dead Prez Get Free or Die Tryin' Landspeed 10
2 Jay-Z S. Carter Collection Roc-A-Fella 10
3 50 Cent Get Rich or Die Tryin' G-Unit/Shady/ Aftermath/Interscope 10
4 Beyonce Dangerously in Love Columbia 10
5 OutKast Speakerboxxx/The Love Below Arista 10
6 Bubba Sparxxx Deliverance Beatclub/Interscope 10
7 Alicia Keys The Diary of Alicia Keys J 10
8 T.I. Trap Muzik Grand Hustle 10
9 Youngbloodz Drankin' Patnaz So So Def 10
10 Explosions in the Sky Earth Is Not a Cold Dead Place Temporary Residence 10
Singles
# artist title label
1 YoungBloodZ featuring Lil Jon Damn! Arista
2 T.I. Rubber Band Man Atlantic
3 Ghostface Killah featuring Jadakiss Run Epic
4 The White Stripes Seven Nation Army Third Man/V2
5 Clipse Pussy Star
6 Diplomats Dipset Anthem Def Jam
7 Snoop Dogg featuring Pharrell and Uncle Charlie Wilson Beautiful Doggy Style/Priority/Capitol
8 Jay-Z La La La (Excuse Me Again) Roc-A-Fella
9 Obie Trice The Setup Aftermath
10 Ludacris featuring Shawnna Stand Up Disturbing Tha Peace/Def

n/m

while we can definitely take Kris Ex to task for speaking on Dipset and loving MOP and TI...the fact still is, he said what needs to be said at least abt that artist in particular...

Even though he was specific abt Dipset, that shit he said applies to the Hip-Hop/R&B genre in general...

as much as I like the persona of a Snoop, I cant support him because this bastard is in his mid-30's talking abt Crip shit...

while Im all for freedom of speech, I dont think that we should hold up that freedom at the expense of responsibility for yr speech and actions.....

We all shook our heads at the happenings at the Vibe Awards but very few of us will admit that the music that we listen to and support feeds the atmosphere where that type of behavior is displayed....

Im an adult, and I watch pornagraphy but I also think there is a time and place for it....at the dinner table in front of my kids isnt it....

and even though I watch pornography, I still think that that game needs to be cleaned up, too....but thats another post...

I tend to keep my money in my wallet when it comes to these matters.....

being a mature adult, I can see through Snoop and know that he's full of shit and thus enjoy Drop It Like Its Hot, but ask me what I think abt him, I'll tell you he's an idiot and I havent put a dime directly in his pocket since 1993...

As far as the Dips, they offend me personally, so i dont fuck with them....

mater of fact, most hip-hop and R&B "artists" (I use that term very loosely) offend me, so they dont get my money...they havent in a long ass time...

my opinions are my own and they are just that, opinions...but while the Dips are entitled to express their coonery, I'm entitled to express my disgust of it...

Kris Ex might not hold MOP ans TI to task, but I do...along with the Dips, RKelly, Jahiem, Jay-Z, Eminem, Dr Dre, Busta Rhymes, The Neptunes, and any other minstrel you can think of....

I wont deny thier talent or humanity but I wont uphold their contribution to the social decay of our ppl either....

I dont give a fuck if dope, crime, and misogyny have been around forever, does that mean it's RIGHT???

Does that mean we shouldnt think and act against it?

and even if we dont lift a finger to actively rid our communities of these scourges...living yr life as a decent human being and encouraging others to do the same is a contribution in itself....

recognizing the ills of our culture and society and speaking on it, whether on a message board or on a podium in front of the Washington Monument, and having the courage to do so is definitely a contribution..

call the spade a spade, say the Emperor wears no clothes....if its true, then so be it...







The avatar: Lalah Hathaway

Tell someone you love them, make them a sandwich...
*****************************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what
I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

"...and then you realize that life is but a joke, and the laughs' on me..."
-PW
http://profiles.myspace.com/users/5562971

Scorpion , The_Fifth & 3030Radio Presents --
Rick James OKP Tribute :
Realplayer : http://streaming.3030radio.com:8080/ramgen/jamestribute.ra
Windows Media Player http://www.3030radio.com/jamestribute.asx

Revolutions:
I Just Want To Be - Cameo
Expansions - Lonnie Liston Smith
Aht Uh Mi Head - Shuggie Otis
Lay Lady Lay - Cassandra Wilson
Brooklyn Zoo - Ol' Dirty Bastard
How Lovers Communicate/Them Chicks - tREBLEFREE
My Friend In The Sky - Switch
Cant You Hear Me Knocking - Rolling Stones
It's Gonna Be Lonely - Prince
Good To Your Earhole/Into You - Funkadelic
Give The Drummer Some - Ultramagnetic MC's
California Dreamin' - Eddie Hazel
Fruit - Roy Ayers

>
>recognizing the ills of our culture and society and speaking
>on it, whether on a message board or on a podium in front of
>the Washington Monument, and having the courage to do so is
>definitely a contribution..
>

this guy has an agenda and its certainly not to improve the community. this is not courageous. based off his own musical tastes and based off the fact he doesnt even like cam's music its very easy for him to say this about him. is cam deserving of being PART of the blame? hell yes but you'd think cam invented crack, guns, violence, stray bullets and the like by reading that shit, at least if not singlehandedly perpetrating it

thats bullshit. its unfair, and its not constructive. if we all raised up and got rid of cam and dips and let every kid in the world know that the shit is bad and not to be revered very little would change-but yet he paints cam to be so terrible and such a threat! i understand cam is his specific focal point for this particular article but the blame laid in this article is a bit much and to me makes him look to be pretty silly since this is nothing new. its like he's condoning the shit as long as it bangs. its like he's criticizing cam for having bad sounding drug and violence music instead of criticizing for just having drug and violence music...and god forbid these kids and white people eat it up!!!

nope (c) killa

why don't we stop worrying about what GWB and Cheney do or don't listen to and TAKE CARE OF OWN SHIT?

FUCK THOSE DEVILS!

i don't give a crap about them! it's OUR kids i'm worried about!

*sigh* i'm sounding more and more like Bill Cosby everyday. and i'm wearing a sweater even as i type this!

he says the flow is bewitching, and at its best when the message is at its very worst

And he obviously likes "Get 'Em Girls"

The only thing he really says to trash the music itself is that he likes the Ludacris album better, and that Purple Haze is not album of the year material.

but u cant tell me he says he likes it

again i seriously doubt he could be as critical or hit it at that angle if it was an album he thought was good


at this point we've definitely morphed the original article. lol but i do find it interesting how one can go at it in that way when he doesn't seem to like it as much as some other music he does that is comparable if not worse in destructive content

>this guy has an agenda and its certainly not to improve the
>community. this is not courageous. based off his own musical
>tastes and based off the fact he doesnt even like cam's
>music its very easy for him to say this about him.

I was speaking to AFKAP abt staying true to HIS convictions with that statement...but as far as Kris Ex goes, he just MIGHT be simply a DipSet hater, therefore taking away from his credibility...but at the end of the day what he said abt DipSet was true....

is cam
>deserving of being PART of the blame? hell yes but you'd
>think cam invented crack, guns, violence, stray bullets and
>the like by reading that shit, at least if not
>singlehandedly perpetrating it
>
>thats bullshit. its unfair, and its not constructive. if we
>all raised up and got rid of cam and dips and let every kid
>in the world know that the shit is bad and not to be revered
>very little would change-but yet he paints cam to be so
>terrible and such a threat! i understand cam is his specific
>focal point for this particular article but the blame laid
>in this article is a bit much and to me makes him look to be
>pretty silly since this is nothing new. its like he's
>condoning the shit as long as it bangs. its like he's
>criticizing cam for having bad sounding drug and violence
>music instead of criticizing for just having drug and
>violence music...and god forbid these kids and white people
>eat it up!!!

your points are valid, Cam and the Dips influence may be minimal in the grand scheme of things but at the end of the day, we need to ask ourselves why are we CELEBRATING this kind of music....

as a people, our situation is type critical right now, whether the actual music is good or bad, we cant ignore the fact that Cam, the Dips, or whoever are contributing to the cycle of death by celebrating and promoting that same cycle of death and deterioration in their music...music which is heard and imitated all over the world, music that is popular in our communities, music that is influencing American culture in general--from the suburbs to the the block...

while Kris Ex MIGHT be wrong in his intent and in his approach, what he speaks of is still something that we need to consider...

Yr right, tho....Cam is not solely to blame for all of this and we shouldnt use Cam and the Dips as scapegoats....but we do have to realize that they ARE part of the problem at large...

and if we all raised up and made an effort to better our communities, youth, etc. I think a whole lot could change...
but thats the problem...we dont THINK anything can change so we stnd by and let it continue...never raising our voices or listening to our higher natures...rationalizing and absolving our apathy with "its always been here" line of thinking...

collectively, we do nothing, we dont raise up, we dont speak up, we dont do anything...

instead we just line up for a slice of Devil's Pie...




The avatar: Lalah Hathaway

Tell someone you love them, make them a sandwich...
*****************************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what
I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

"...and then you realize that life is but a joke, and the laughs' on me..."
-PW
http://profiles.myspace.com/users/5562971

Scorpion , The_Fifth & 3030Radio Presents --
Rick James OKP Tribute :
Realplayer : http://streaming.3030radio.com:8080/ramgen/jamestribute.ra
Windows Media Player http://www.3030radio.com/jamestribute.asx

Revolutions:
I Just Want To Be - Cameo
Expansions - Lonnie Liston Smith
Aht Uh Mi Head - Shuggie Otis
Lay Lady Lay - Cassandra Wilson
Brooklyn Zoo - Ol' Dirty Bastard
How Lovers Communicate/Them Chicks - tREBLEFREE
My Friend In The Sky - Switch
Cant You Hear Me Knocking - Rolling Stones
It's Gonna Be Lonely - Prince
Good To Your Earhole/Into You - Funkadelic
Give The Drummer Some - Ultramagnetic MC's
California Dreamin' - Eddie Hazel
Fruit - Roy Ayers

and if you're implying that hip-hop was created by fucks like Cam'ron, you're smoking that good good....

but I wish to know exactly what you mean by yr reply....

if you care to expound, then I'll be here....




The avatar: Lalah Hathaway

Tell someone you love them, make them a sandwich...
*****************************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what
I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

"...and then you realize that life is but a joke, and the laughs' on me..."
-PW
http://profiles.myspace.com/users/5562971

Scorpion , The_Fifth & 3030Radio Presents --
Rick James OKP Tribute :
Realplayer : http://streaming.3030radio.com:8080/ramgen/jamestribute.ra
Windows Media Player http://www.3030radio.com/jamestribute.asx

Revolutions:
I Just Want To Be - Cameo
Expansions - Lonnie Liston Smith
Aht Uh Mi Head - Shuggie Otis
Lay Lady Lay - Cassandra Wilson
Brooklyn Zoo - Ol' Dirty Bastard
How Lovers Communicate/Them Chicks - tREBLEFREE
My Friend In The Sky - Switch
Cant You Hear Me Knocking - Rolling Stones
It's Gonna Be Lonely - Prince
Good To Your Earhole/Into You - Funkadelic
Give The Drummer Some - Ultramagnetic MC's
California Dreamin' - Eddie Hazel
Fruit - Roy Ayers

the post stands on its own w/o elaboration

PROUD of it either. it wasnt a BOAST.

he might have been talking about similar things, but the way those subjects were treated was totally different.

AllHipHop: You mentioned drug and getting high. Was "White Lines" glamorizing getting high?

MM: I just made a song about what my perception of cocaine was. It wasn't something to make you get high. It wasn't to make you stop getting high. We added "Don't Do It" in the song because nobody had made a rap record about cocaine at that time. , a lot of record stations didn't playing it because it was about cocaine.

AllHipHop: Was coke something you guys indulged in?

MM: Yeah, everybody did. It was the think to do. That was before crack came out. Cocaine was like the high-profile drug. Good cocaine was like $100 a gram. All the pretty girls and the entertainers liked cocaine. It wasn't like its seen now.

AllHipHop: Did you ever get addicted?

MM: Yeah, you know - I didn't get hooked on coke all that much. But when, crack came out, I did crack. I was a crack head at one time. A couple of years - a lot of people got caught out there. It wasn't me. I didn't have to go to rehab. After a couple years and I'm not looking as good as I used to and I ainÕt writing. I left it alone.

we all know that story about him using the drug while making what sounds like an anti-drug track. its actually more of an ambiguous drug song, but nowhere could it be seen as promoting crack-use, nor was melle boasting about how he sells it or uses it. it was a world away from cam and the dips.

he just runs and googles till he finds something that might remotely impact part of what you said in your post, even if in the long run it has nothing to do with the larger discussion at hand. hence, to him, melle mel using cocaine somehow refutes your argument that melle mel never glorified crack dealing. LOL.
____

Stiffed...fall in line, fall in love...http://www.stiffedmusic.com/video/smiths.mov

Please force them to keep counting your votes until we see who really won the election this year. Thanks.

Albums I've Been Listening to NonStop Recently

E-Rule, "Cold Currentz" (one of the most underrated emcees out, dope beats, ferocious delivery, street knowledge blended with 5% theology, ridiculously well crafted multiple-syllable rhyme schemes, how are people sleeping on this cat?)

>we all know that story about him using the drug while making
>what sounds like an anti-drug track. its actually more of an
>ambiguous drug song, but nowhere could it be seen as
>promoting crack-use, nor was melle boasting about how he
>sells it or uses it. it was a world away from cam and the
>dips.

You don't think Melle Mel is glorifying cocaine use or sales with that song....fair enough. I don't think it's much of a reach.

Lemme explain the argument with another example.

Rakim wears Gucci, flashes money, drives a fat whip in his videos, and has a big gold chain.

Run DMC appears in black leather, black jeans, sneakers, and black hats.

Both of them were wearing what drug dealers wore in their respective hoods and eras. (according to Mike Love for Rakim and Krs 1 for Run DMC)

Despite spitting so-called positive rhymes, they did so in the garb of drug dealers - the dealer's aesthetic. As a result, every kid listening to Run DMC wanted to look like them. Same with Rakim, but by then it was "rapper" gear for people who didn't know.

You think this unspoken message was somehow lost on the kids from the neighborhoods where crack sales were being made?

Can we agree that a person with a negative image can spit conscious/positive lyrics and people will ignore the content of the message and focus on the visual? (Cause Quez and nem can list mad thoughtful songs from the Dips - where I can only think of 2 from Cam's last one, and 2 off of Juelz's album)

How intelligent do you think these children are?

Smart enough to wear all pink, I mean wear all black.
But not smart enough to recognize to 1) hear the positive lyrics, 2) catch a subtle under-current of gangsterism they see every day?

They're able to memorize the songs on the radio, the worst songs on the album, but completely ignore the positive songs on the lp, and the positive messages within a negative song?

Which one is it Gum Drops?

There are all these widespread behaviors throughout the history of hip hop that you can't reconcile with your theory of how the world works.

In essence, what all you cats are saying is far too simplistic to address reality.

one
k. orr

>>we all know that story about him using the drug while making
>>what sounds like an anti-drug track. its actually more of an
>>ambiguous drug song, but nowhere could it be seen as
>>promoting crack-use, nor was melle boasting about how he
>>sells it or uses it. it was a world away from cam and the
>>dips.
>
>You don't think Melle Mel is glorifying cocaine use or sales
>with that song....fair enough. I don't think it's much of a
>reach.

its a lyrically complex song. you got to remember melle mells tone of voice throughout the song is kinda sardonic, first of all. so while on paper, the chorus looks like a celebration, its delivered almost sneeringly. the verses though, are quite obviously anti-drugs. its a situation similar to springsteen's born in the USA - lots of people took that as being unbashedly patriotic, when it wasnt. same goes for white lines. but like i said, it can be seen as ambiguous. but even that is a universe away from rappers proudly/boastfully acting in the first person about selling dope or whatever.

>Lemme explain the argument with another example.
>
>Rakim wears Gucci, flashes money, drives a fat whip in his
>videos, and has a big gold chain.
>
>Run DMC appears in black leather, black jeans, sneakers, and
>black hats.
>
>Both of them were wearing what drug dealers wore in their
>respective hoods and eras. (according to Mike Love for Rakim
>and Krs 1 for Run DMC)
>
>Despite spitting so-called positive rhymes, they did so in
>the garb of drug dealers - the dealer's aesthetic. As a
>result, every kid listening to Run DMC wanted to look like
>them. Same with Rakim, but by then it was "rapper" gear for
>people who didn't know.
>
>You think this unspoken message was somehow lost on the kids
>from the neighborhoods where crack sales were being made?

theyre operating from the inside in that case. kids that these MCs know would likely be looking up to the dealers in their neighbourhoods would see rakim or run dmc dressed like the criminal element so that would give them credibility. they didnt ACT or deliver messages like the dealers though. if what youre saying is true, then in a way, thats more of a genius move, because theyre being identified as being from the same cloth as the dealers but projecting a different message entirely. most likely though, they just did it cos they knew who had cred with kids locally - but i still give them respect for not rapping from the position of a glorified drug dealer, even if they dressed like one.

>Can we agree that a person with a negative image can spit
>conscious/positive lyrics and people will ignore the content
>of the message and focus on the visual?

sure. but whats that got to do with the dips' lyrics? i dont care if they dress like osama bin laden to be honest. im not interested in their image - im interested in their music. i give not a shit if they wear pink or baby blue.

(Cause Quez and nem
>can list mad thoughtful songs from the Dips - where I can
>only think of 2 from Cam's last one, and 2 off of Juelz's
>album)

i cant list those songs, but im sure they do exist. same way that on the styles album, after 589345 songs about thugging, he does a conscious song. same for jada. or trick daddy too. not sure if that has much impact though, considering its usually tucked away at the end of the CD and seems like a token gesture (although trick has said that he does it to give the kids soemthing a bit morally upstanding as he knows theres a lot to lead them astray (not his other songs, of course)).

>How intelligent do you think these children are?

some are smarter than others. like how afkap writes above that he saw right through the scarface gangster shtick as a teen. others arent that clever. thats only normal though. some kids are dumb, some arent. some will do crimes, some wont. but as others have noted, when all they have really IS scarface being stuffed into their ears, its a shame they wont have much else to counterbalance it musically.

>Smart enough to wear all pink, I mean wear all black.
>But not smart enough to recognize to 1) hear the positive
>lyrics, 2) catch a subtle under-current of gangsterism they
>see every day?

if they see it AND hear it, it kinda makes the first one a bit too 'worthy' and 'good for you', it makes positive songs like the musical equivalents of wholemeal muesli - healthy but boring. anyway, youre underestimating the influence putting anything in musical form can have. a good beat, rhyme, chrorus, hook whatever, can make something compltely seductive.

>They're able to memorize the songs on the radio, the worst
>songs on the album, but completely ignore the positive songs
>on the lp, and the positive messages within a negative song?

if the positive songs sound hollow and only there for the sake of it to shut up people criticising the 'bad' and 'negative songs' which are most likely better actual songs, then i dont blame them for remembering lyrics about fucking girls with no protection sadistically before going to sell a pregnant mother enough for her evening's hit more than anything else.

>Which one is it Gum Drops?

*shrugs* you tell me which one it is, oh street scholar.

>There are all these widespread behaviors throughout the
>history of hip hop that you can't reconcile with your theory
>of how the world works.

its not MY theory. my theory was merely that the dips do glorify drug dealing and melle melle didnt.

>In essence, what all you cats are saying is far too
>simplistic to address reality.

what youre saying is letting music off the hook too lightly.

>its a lyrically complex song. you got to remember melle
>mells tone of voice throughout the song is kinda sardonic,
>first of all. so while on paper, the chorus looks like a
>celebration, its delivered almost sneeringly.

I'm familiar with the song, but my focus isn't so much on the song, as it is the subject of the thread.

With that said, at what age do you not understand "the sneer".

5,7,8,9,10,11,14,18?

Unfair to pick a #? Obviously

You're making a general and amorphous argument about influence.

Does X when exposed to Y have an effect on Y?

In the abstract, X ALWAYS has an effect on Y.
In the concrete, if we want to modify X, we want to know how and to what extent X affects Y.

>the verses
>though, are quite obviously anti-drugs. its a situation
>similar to springsteen's born in the USA - lots of people
>took that as being unbashedly patriotic, when it wasnt. same
>goes for white lines.

So you now agree that despite the lyrics it's a ringing endorsement?

>but like i said, it can be seen as
>ambiguous. but even that is a universe away from rappers
>proudly/boastfully acting in the first person about selling
>dope or whatever.

Matter of degree.

But you're saying it's a magnitude of difference from indirect reference and glorification, like Run DMC, like Melle Mel, like Rakim, Like Krs, to direct reference and glorication like Nas, Inspectah Deck, Ice Cube, and Mobb Deep.

So in the backdrop of the prototypical black neighborhood rife with crack dealers,

Crack + indirect crack raps is not nearly as value
changing/harmful to morality as crack + direct crack raps?

You can only dodge the issue for so long.

>>Lemme explain the argument with another example.
>>
>>Rakim wears Gucci, flashes money, drives a fat whip in his
>>videos, and has a big gold chain.
>>
>>Run DMC appears in black leather, black jeans, sneakers, and
>>black hats.
>>
>>Both of them were wearing what drug dealers wore in their
>>respective hoods and eras. (according to Mike Love for Rakim
>>and Krs 1 for Run DMC)
>>
>>Despite spitting so-called positive rhymes, they did so in
>>the garb of drug dealers - the dealer's aesthetic. As a
>>result, every kid listening to Run DMC wanted to look like
>>them. Same with Rakim, but by then it was "rapper" gear for
>>people who didn't know.
>>
>>You think this unspoken message was somehow lost on the kids
>>from the neighborhoods where crack sales were being made?
>
>theyre operating from the inside in that case. kids that
>these MCs know would likely be looking up to the dealers in
>their neighbourhoods would see rakim or run dmc dressed like
>the criminal element so that would give them credibility.

Credibility? So these kids already esteemed this very thing that you don't want them to esteem.

Shouldn't it be the other way around if hip hop has some sort of effect - validating the drug dealer because rappers are popular and positive?

>they didnt ACT or deliver messages like the dealers though.
>if what youre saying is true, then in a way, thats more of a
>genius move, because theyre being identified as being from
>the same cloth as the dealers but projecting a different
>message entirely.

nice.

>most likely though, they just did it cos
>they knew who had cred with kids locally - but i still give
>them respect for not rapping from the position of a
>glorified drug dealer, even if they dressed like one.

So you have no problem with the imagery, as long as it's wink and nod?

>>Can we agree that a person with a negative image can spit
>>conscious/positive lyrics and people will ignore the content
>>of the message and focus on the visual?
>
>sure. but whats that got to do with the dips' lyrics? i dont
>care if they dress like osama bin laden to be honest. im not
>interested in their image - im interested in their music. i
>give not a shit if they wear pink or baby blue.

Because Gum Drops, the issue at hand is not the quality of their music. That's never the issue.

If they were bragging taking over corners with the RZA on production - we'd still have the same issue.

Or would we?

>(Cause Quez and nem
>>can list mad thoughtful songs from the Dips - where I can
>>only think of 2 from Cam's last one, and 2 off of Juelz's
>>album)
>
>i cant list those songs, but im sure they do exist. same way
>that on the styles album, after 589345 songs about thugging,
>he does a conscious song. same for jada. or trick daddy too.

lol @ trick being mentioned in this discussion.

>not sure if that has much impact though, considering its
>usually tucked away at the end of the CD and seems like a
>token gesture (although trick has said that he does it to
>give the kids soemthing a bit morally upstanding as he knows
>theres a lot to lead them astray (not his other songs, of
>course)).

So the gangsta songs @ the end of the cd alos have might not have any impact?

I can't honestly think you're making a point about album sequencing.

>>How intelligent do you think these children are?
>
>some are smarter than others. like how afkap writes above
>that he saw right through the scarface gangster shtick as a
>teen. others arent that clever. thats only normal though.
>some kids are dumb, some arent. some will do crimes, some
>wont. but as others have noted, when all they have really IS
>scarface being stuffed into their ears, its a shame they
>wont have much else to counterbalance it musically.

Good dodge.

Why is it a shame?

>>Smart enough to wear all pink, I mean wear all black.
>>But not smart enough to recognize to 1) hear the positive
>>lyrics, 2) catch a subtle under-current of gangsterism they
>>see every day?
>
>if they see it AND hear it, it kinda makes the first one a
>bit too 'worthy' and 'good for you', it makes positive songs
>like the musical equivalents of wholemeal muesli - healthy
>but boring.

So you're arguing that these children are this media savvy.
Yet they are still somehow influenced by these gangsta raps.

>anyway, youre underestimating the influence
>putting anything in musical form can have. a good beat,
>rhyme, chrorus, hook whatever, can make something compltely
>seductive.

I'm not under-estimating it.
I'm suggesting that in a complex world with music videos, TV, movies, church, parents, friends, peers, strangers, news - so called negative messages have lots of competition.

If I just wanted to focus on hip hop, the vast majority of the popular hip hop, is rapping for bitches.

If I focused specifically on the dips, most of their stuff ain't narratives about crack sales, it's buying clothes, having rims, saying fuck the label, et cetera.

Your argument doesn't deal with
- competing seductive notions out of the music world
- competing seductive notions within music itself
- contradictory and competing seductive notions with the dipset music itself - sometimes in the same song.

On top of that, you don't address how this message works, who it affects, and to what extent.

>>They're able to memorize the songs on the radio, the worst
>>songs on the album, but completely ignore the positive songs
>>on the lp, and the positive messages within a negative song?
>
>if the positive songs sound hollow and only there for the
>sake of it to shut up people criticising the 'bad' and
>'negative songs' which are most likely better actual songs,
>then i dont blame them for remembering lyrics about fucking
>girls with no protection sadistically before going to sell a
>pregnant mother enough for her evening's hit more than
>anything else.

You can make the claim Gum, but you can't support it.
You can't extrapolate it.

I can.

>>Which one is it Gum Drops?
>
>*shrugs* you tell me which one it is, oh street scholar.

It's obvious that if there is any effect of the dipset on the young harlemite, it's gonna be choosing to get a pink oversize fitted vs a white oversize fitted.

In terms of values, dipset's so-called nihilism has to be looked @ in the context of P. Diddy (another Harlemite) running the City.

There are so many competing values, there is so many more important structural and historical factors, there are so many more logical and attractive explanations, and so little if any evidence to support your point....

You're believing this on faith, not on reason or logic.

>>There are all these widespread behaviors throughout the
>>history of hip hop that you can't reconcile with your theory
>>of how the world works.
>
>its not MY theory. my theory was merely that the dips do
>glorify drug dealing and melle melle didnt.

Sure.

>>In essence, what all you cats are saying is far too
>>simplistic to address reality.
>
>what youre saying is letting music off the hook too lightly.

I can let the music off lightly, because I can't blame dipset for little Tyrone's father not being there.

I can't work hip hop into the mental calculus of people who make decisions to have unprotected sex, to engage in crime, to drop out of school et cetera.

There are far bigger considerations to any of those decisions than what's playing on the radio.

The fact that a lot of these things have been doing on since the 1960's all over the country is what allows me to "let music off lightly"

one
k. orr

this is going around in circles and i havent got the energy to discuss x when im more interested in y and z.

Im a dipset fan but wanna give you a hand on your post. Beautifully said.

ROTFL...the Diplomats are comical characters who have a good ear for great beats which they know absolutely nothing of how to put those to good use and understanding their contagious appeal they're cashing in on it, same thing a lot of these artists do nowadays. Everyone flaunts the free speech right as soon as you take them to task for their art. I guess all art no matter how grotesque, bizarre or dangerous it appears is art. I just think there's a fine line that ought not to be crossed....and this isn't just about the dips but about every gun-toting, gangsta-wannabe, gang-affiliated, womanising rapper/artist.

The stuff sucks but its the reality of life as we have it today. My advice to folks irritated by the dipset phenomena is turn off their music and listen in other stuff that suits you.

the fool can say the Emporer has no clothes, but at the end of the day, the Emporer is still the Emporer, and the fool is still the fool

People speaking out on artists like the Dips aren't helping anything IMO. Why not channel all that energy into promoting groups that they feel would be better for the public. Seems more productive to me.

well I guess i'll contribute next time.

T510 and braille held it down.
Afkap came nice as well

one
k. orr

the whole time, i was i like..."where's k_orr at?"

haha.

you might as well throw in your two cents.

My initial pulls from the article.

1. "one’s ability to enjoy Dipsetism is proportionate to one's distance from the playground zeroes that serve as the breeding camps for such terrorist-worshiping souls"

Suggesting that the only people who enjoy it, are folks far from it.

But as far as I can tell, that seems far from the truth, and that doesn't just go for Dipset, but it goes for gangsta rap as a whole.

2. No, I don't think the hood would turn to Eden if everyone rapped like the Black Eyed Peas.

Which I don't think folks who were anti-co-signing dealt with.

3. And I’m not going to get into judging Cam or pointing fingers, because I’m all too intimate with pull of the spiral that spins his value system.

Suggest the writer's vulnerability.

I don't know a mf'er who wouldn't want a new fat ass 19 year old every night, a bentley whip, jewels, gear, cash....

4. I know that it's more than just music; that there are actually guys living the ill street blues on those Harlem streets (and those B-more, Detroit and Liberty City streets).

Recognizing that there are folks out there living the life. So everything Cam is talking ain't fantasy (kind of a nod to the street reporting claim)

5. Cam was given this world, he didnt make it. He's just making it worse

I think this is his strongest argument.

If the co-signers would have really capitalized on this part of the argument - that would have made this even more interesting.

6. Going at Cam is like going at the five-year-old girl who knows how to do all of the latest hoochie dances. I’d rather talk to the adults who pile into the livingroom and encourage the bullshit saying, “Go Nisha! . . . Isn’t that so cute? She's the bomb!!”

Author addresses "the real problem" - the parents. But somehow he focuses on a 5 year old girl who through dance will become a whore - when I thought the focus was on the 10 year old boy pumping dipset and making that plunge to be a runner or a lookout cause 1) he wants some new Iversons (does Artest have a shoe? - I need to cop some cause I want to look extra gangsta(, 2) his family don't provide enough *food* for him and his folks to eat....

7. most pushers of the lowest common denominator, the guy can sound his best when he's at his worst

interesting characterization

8. "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." - John 8:3-7 -

I didn't understand this at all.

As far as my position
- Going after dipset was wrong - he should have had a paragraph or 2 about dipset is symbolic.
- Does he really listen to dipset? or any other so called gangsta rapper? It's bigger than that.
- How do you justify hating dipset but loving Spice 1? or ice Cube or the Geto Boys or a cat who rhymes about shooting niggas so they do back flips?
- If it's balance, lemme shift the burden to the haters - I don't hear a lot of haters talk about folks who are truly on some righteous shit, and not cats stealing pizzas from white boys to start a revolution, or talking about how Semites run this rap shit. They complain, yet not dig, not try and offer alternative?
- If hip hop is so powerful, how come positive hip hop fails time and time again? Where is the Love? (c) BEP
- And if I recall, I coulda swore half that camp was saying that these cats is rapping for bitches nowadays. Cam n'nem don't sound like no Ja Rule. (well if Beyonce n'nem count - maybe they right)
- if my girl start acting up, then I'll take her friend

I got dozens of zingers and good points.
This is an old argument. It's up there with Women in hip hop, whites in hip hop, and the supposed business effect in hip hop.

But I'd like to see someone develop that point 5 where the Cris Ex concedes that hip hop didn't start the shit - but it is making it worse.

That'd be an interesting post. From my pov, it's 2 things, 1) developing causality, 2) figuring out level of effect.

But maybe someone's got a different way of looking at it.

I guess I isolate too many variables.

one
k. orr

>My initial pulls from the article.
>
>1. "one’s ability to enjoy Dipsetism is proportionate to
>one's distance from the playground zeroes that serve as the
>breeding camps for such terrorist-worshiping souls"
>
>Suggesting that the only people who enjoy it, are folks far
>from it.
>


i live in the MIDDLE of harlem, that's why my opinion is way more valid

>i live in the MIDDLE of harlem

and im not a fanatic. i'll even admit purple haze is a good album, but diplomats volume 2 could have been a lot better

Look at what they have this innocent girl doing: .

On a more serious note, Ex has some points. Unfortunately, they are overshadowed by the rest of his essay.

i will no longer "defend" dipset

e-nough

Knock knock, who there? You! You who? U Mad?
What's an antonym for not mad? (Mad) you mad?

What letter comes after T in the alphabet? (u) u mad?

Look in the dictionary for the word "mad", and you gon find a picture of you in there, cause u mad!


Q: If your last name was Mad, and first name was Ulysses, how would they list you in the telephone book?

A: U. Mad?


Q: If you went to buy hot dog from the doller menu at uMaddonald's what would it most likely be?

A: a Umad Doggie?


If someone gets mad in the middle of the woods, and there is no one there to hear him, is you still mad?


Hmmm... If instead of Massachussets it was MADsachussets, what would the university therefore be

UMAD?


What would happen if a cow with the mad cow disease impregnated a dog? Would the child be a

You Mad doggie Cow?


Monica: SO Hillary.... U MAD?


dictionary of getting your ass beat
you get beat up by dudes in new york- new york'd

you get beat up by dudes in miami- miami'd

you get beat up by dudes in yuma- YUMA'D?


in class
me: so whats ya name?
her: madeline
me: so u mad?

Me: what's it like in the jungle n!gga?
Nelson mandela: it is hot
Me: and hUMAD?


I was watchin a Japanese game show where the point is that 5 people and 5 dogs who partner up and fight eachother. The people were called Lo Mein, Po Chan, Yu Mad, Li Lee and Kung Po. All the dogs were named A through E. The host then paired the people up with the dogs.

"Po Can you're with Dog A, Li Lee is teamed with Dog B, Lo Mein's with Dog C, Kung Po you've got Dog D and Yu Mad, Dog E."


This guy and this gal about to get married, and then what happens? The soon to be groom looses the damn ring. So he remembers he left it the night before on the bathroom sink when he went for one last night with his ex-girlfriend before taking the plunge, and he left it at her house, and what is worse is that the ex-girlfriend was dating his brother who was out on business the night but, would return the day of the wedding (today!). To add to that, his brother went and helped him pick out the ring, so if he saw it in his house he'd know he'd been there, and would know something had happened. So then... I ain't gonna finish the story, you mad?


for the dyslexics..

dam ouy?

for those with obsessive compulsive disorder

you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad you mad

(c) The Movement


____________________

"I went from livin in a hungry ghetto, to white girls sayin "Wow what a lovely bezel, diamonds in a yummy yellow" -- Hell Rell

"You got heart? Fight me, I'll dearly depart wifey" -- Killa!!!!

"Just ask ya posse, how I flash Versace, one strap, all black Huaraches... chea!" -- J.R. Writer

"We race foreign cars, custom models, drop top mustard Tahoe... we like the Muskateers, trained by Cus D'Amato" -- Killa!



http://profiles.myspace.com/users/2377167

:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)

:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)

:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)

:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)

:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)

:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)

:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)

:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)

:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)

:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)
:O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)

___________________

"I went from livin in a hungry ghetto, to white girls sayin "Wow what a lovely bezel, diamonds in a yummy yellow" -- Hell Rell

"You got heart? Fight me, I'll dearly depart wifey" -- Killa!!!!

"Just ask ya posse, how I flash Versace, one strap, all black Huaraches... chea!" -- J.R. Writer

"We race foreign cars, custom models, drop top mustard Tahoe... we like the Muskateers, trained by Cus D'Amato" -- Killa!



http://profiles.myspace.com/users/2377167

that made my day, funniest shit i read on these boards in a while

____________________

"I went from livin in a hungry ghetto, to white girls sayin "Wow what a lovely bezel, diamonds in a yummy yellow" -- Hell Rell

"You got heart? Fight me, I'll dearly depart wifey" -- Killa!!!!

"Just ask ya posse, how I flash Versace, one strap, all black Huaraches... chea!" -- J.R. Writer

"We race foreign cars, custom models, drop top mustard Tahoe... we like the Muskateers, trained by Cus D'Amato" -- Killa!



http://profiles.myspace.com/users/2377167

But I guess people will forever talk about and do whatever they feel to make gains, at whatever cost to others.

I'm tired of the "cause and effect" argument, that shit ate itself in 97. Folks are becoming a product of "entertainment", I see it every time I step outside.

>But I guess people will forever talk about and do whatever
>they feel to make gains, at whatever cost to others.
>
>I'm tired of the "cause and effect" argument, that shit ate
>itself in 97. Folks are becoming a product of
>"entertainment", I see it every time I step outside.

bullshit, go make another remix of "Dirt off your Shoulder" and cash your check. Bamma

____________________

"I went from livin in a hungry ghetto, to white girls sayin "Wow what a lovely bezel, diamonds in a yummy yellow" -- Hell Rell

"You got heart? Fight me, I'll dearly depart wifey" -- Killa!!!!

"Just ask ya posse, how I flash Versace, one strap, all black Huaraches... chea!" -- J.R. Writer

"We race foreign cars, custom models, drop top mustard Tahoe... we like the Muskateers, trained by Cus D'Amato" -- Killa!



http://profiles.myspace.com/users/2377167

Thanks for proving my point.

the sun is shining even at night. you can see it in the phases of the moon goddess. the star children slumber in her prescence. but some boldly go into the night knowing the light will never cease do die as long as you are alive to winess the sunrise. fear not people. ugliness is much of part of the world as the beauty people crave as if a drug. beauty is the ultimate drug. in the face of itt we could ignore the reality of the world falling into oblivion. i dont know why i just type that shit. i guess im depressed i just smoked all these damn newports mindlessly(joyfully) working on my music waiting to die i guess. but im beautiful so why stop smoking? damn this is why i could never be a lawyer cause i could be the prosecutor and the defence. im too in love with beauty of individual freedom even with the possible recklessness it entails. but if i was face to be face with them cats id probably tell about my lil girl and that they would feel something really real if they tried that abuse on her. but then i guess i should teach enough self respect not to fall for such foolishness. what to do in the face of beauty. is that shit just an illusion or is it really real. i guess at the end of the day after they cashed they checks as long as they realized they helped in the destuction of our peoples star children its cool. but ironically the ugliness they beautifully and epicly(did i just make up a word?) glorify might help those who care stop the suffering. the devil is one of gods most faithful followers.

>the sun is shining even at night. you can see it in the
>phases of the moon goddess. the star children slumber in her
>prescence. but some boldly go into the night knowing the
>light will never cease do die as long as you are alive to
>winess the sunrise. fear not people. ugliness is much of
>part of the world as the beauty people crave as if a drug.
>beauty is the ultimate drug. in the face of itt we could
>ignore the reality of the world falling into oblivion. i
>dont know why i just type that shit. i guess im depressed i
>just smoked all these damn newports mindlessly(joyfully)
>working on my music waiting to die i guess. but im beautiful
>so why stop smoking? damn this is why i could never be a
>lawyer cause i could be the prosecutor and the defence. im
>too in love with beauty of individual freedom even with the
>possible recklessness it entails. but if i was face to be
>face with them cats id probably tell about my lil girl and
>that they would feel something really real if they tried
>that abuse on her. but then i guess i should teach enough
>self respect not to fall for such foolishness. what to do in
>the face of beauty. is that shit just an illusion or is it
>really real. i guess at the end of the day after they cashed
>they checks as long as they realized they helped in the
>destuction of our peoples star children its cool. but
>ironically the ugliness they beautifully and epicly(did i
>just make up a word?) glorify might help those who care stop
>the suffering. the devil is one of gods most faithful
>followers.

nigga i said puff, puff, pass!!!!!!!

____________________

"I went from livin in a hungry ghetto, to white girls sayin "Wow what a lovely bezel, diamonds in a yummy yellow" -- Hell Rell

"You got heart? Fight me, I'll dearly depart wifey" -- Killa!!!!

"Just ask ya posse, how I flash Versace, one strap, all black Huaraches... chea!" -- J.R. Writer

"We race foreign cars, custom models, drop top mustard Tahoe... we like the Muskateers, trained by Cus D'Amato" -- Killa!



http://profiles.myspace.com/users/2377167

n/m

Yeah I pump dip set, b/c the bastards are entertaining, and I can understand that.

but at the same time it truly is human crack, its dumbing down niggas to think the hood is some fairy tale land where hoes, crack, beatdowns, nice whips and cops roam. And yeah most of that shit is there, but theres other shit going on, and Cam just exploits that common denominator shit. But at the same time a lot of cats are that simple.

but kris ex I feel is pointing out that no one is calling this dude out for being one of the most misogynistic artists ever. Yeah a lot of cats the MAJORITY of hip hop treats women like shit. But cam condones domestic violence like it aint shit in numerous songs.

And all rappers should be accountable, but you gotta wonder how this shit informs listners.

I mean fuck it most of us remember snoop and dre and we called every girl beyotch and "we dont love these hoes" and wonder why are relationships are so warped now.


man i'm drunk on sangria but u get the point

you know this type (read: type) of lashing out will only make their name grow bigger...

i'm not a hater nor lover of the dips, but the patterns are clear

bakari7's poetry corner...

suburban science project living
the hypothesis
was to leave the urban decay
that left our old block w/ dentures
& become 1 with new cavities
in a new land at 7 yrs young
i thought the grass was greener
since fewer shells from guns stunted its growth
we grew wilder, the cul-de-sacs became meaner
once we signed our hypocritical oath:
thou shall name thyself an urban dweller
& curse thy present surroundings
this acceptance became the village idiot's crowning
who imported pentagram & hexagram hands
thrown in personal space to make
lost stars never to be found
& since the fuel was cheaper,
we gassed our heads up into thinking we were better
yet, still hoping to be down
&...

11.11.04

y'all act like hiphop gave birth to the ghetto. if anything it's the other way around.

cats like the dips are symptoms, not sources, of the problems in the hood. folks would like to treat the symptoms, dull the pain, but even when you anesthetized the problem is still there.

but keep on ignoring the cancer wit y'all righteous asses.

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

is to celebrate the symptoms?

you missed me.

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

as you call it, isn't seen as celebration by others?

Isn't it a viable argument, that aside from the kids getting enjoyment from these tales (as if they all listen to and understand lyrics - and only care about beats) - that some kids actually relate to some of the deeper things said by Juelz, and recognize the gun clapping as the entertainment that it is?

Is the relationship that these children build with the music, only start and grow around the "worst" parts of it?

one
k. orr

You ain't ask me, but...

>can it not be argued that "celebration", as you call it, isn't seen as celebration by others?

Well, yeah, I think so--that's an aspect of human nature. Diff'rent strokes.

>Isn't it a viable argument, that aside from the kids getting
>enjoyment from these tales (as if they all listen to and
>understand lyrics - and only care about beats) - that some
>kids actually relate to some of the deeper things said by
>Juelz, and recognize the gun clapping as the entertainment
>that it is?

It's definitely a viable argument, but I think that we also see what we wanna see. If all these kids over here is actin' up and runnin' the streets, callin' themselves "Dipset" and sntchin' purses--then they ALL must be doin' it. It's not neccesarily BECAUSE of what Camron says or does--he's just maneuvering within the reality he feels has been set in front of him.

I won't lie and say that I can warmly embrace HALF that shit, cuz I wish half that shit didn't exist. But I can understand his trip and hope that, over time, he eventually reflects a less-nihilistic view of reality--because the danger is real for those kids who DON'T know the difference.

>
>Is the relationship that these children build with the
>music, only start and grow around the "worst" parts of it?

I EXISTED in the worst parts of it myself, but I can't say that the more destructive elements of that reality are in me today.

But that's just what I say.

>It's definitely a viable argument, but I think that we also
>see what we wanna see. If all these kids over here is actin'
>up and runnin' the streets, callin' themselves "Dipset" and
>sntchin' purses--then they ALL must be doin' it.

I think the point with the dipset reference
- kids were a gang before dipset
- the actual folks in dipset were gangsters.

It's not
>neccesarily BECAUSE of what Camron says or does--he's just
>maneuvering within the reality he feels has been set in
>front of him.

I'll go with that.

>I won't lie and say that I can warmly embrace HALF that
>shit, cuz I wish half that shit didn't exist. But I can
>understand his trip and hope that, over time, he eventually
>reflects a less-nihilistic view of reality--because the
>danger is real for those kids who DON'T know the difference.

And those kids are common or far and few btwn?

>>
>>Is the relationship that these children build with the
>>music, only start and grow around the "worst" parts of it?
>
>I EXISTED in the worst parts of it myself, but I can't say
>that the more destructive elements of that reality are in me
>today.
>
>But that's just what I say.

yeah.

I've dealt with the best and worst of our demographic.

Music choice is a negligible issue as to big things.

But Afkap isn't talking about picking up a gun after hearing dipset, and i'm not arguing about picking pink last year over FUBU.....

one
k. orr

>Isn't it a viable argument, that aside from the kids getting
>enjoyment from these tales (as if they all listen to and
>understand lyrics - and only care about beats) - that some
>kids actually relate to some of the deeper things said by
>Juelz, and recognize the gun clapping as the entertainment
>that it is?

Even if you're not consciously breaking down the lyrics (and it's not like the Dips' lyrics are that complex or indecipherable, aside from when Cam gets his Dr. Seuss on), you pick up on the attitudes (and you subconsciously pick up the attitudes a little bit yourself).

The beats are the main draw, but Cam and them have a really adolescent/juvenile outlook on life (get money, use women, take out your enemies), and that cocky, arrogant "I make the rules" attitude, kids love that shit. The social transgression is a big part of the fun.

so any sort of transmission of morality is warranted.

Even with GTA, a far more interactive and involved medium than music,

Black Kids don't consciously buy a Dipset album because they want to shoot mf'ers up.

"Even if you're not consciously breaking down the lyrics , you pick up on the attitudes"

It's possible. But anything is possible.

This picking up of "attitudes" the question will always be, what effect does it have on most children (little if any), and when it does have major detrimental effect how many kids are we talking?(few if any)

Keeping in mind that the attitudes expressed on a Dipset lp or hip hop in general is just *1* of hundreds of influences on a young mind.

Affy seems to be arguing that there is a widespread corrosive effect on the values and morals of young black children. (maybe not even young, we'll wait for him to develop it) Where hip hop might be a cause of, contributor to, reinforcer of, or just a catalyst for.

Below Pra'verbs tells us that there is no correlation between the prevalence of gangsta rap and gang activity. Sure that's a boon for the whole "y'all ain't really street reporting" crowd - but it pretty much disproves any idea that rap is causing any more violence. You could even suggest that banging on wax, equals less banging in the streets. But we won't play the correlation game.

one
k. orr

correlates to real-life violence

Though if you listen to a lot of that stuff, you may be slightly less likely to step down when you feel someone has disrespected you. But I don't think the more murders you hear on record, the more murders you'll see in the street. I'm not saying people are total zombies.

However, Dipset promotes a view of life that really appeals to an adolescent/juvenile mindset (use women, get money, wear flashy clothes, drive the latest cars, be arrogant and cocky and make the rules, take out your enemies), and I'm not saying they're the main factor in "coarsening" kids as Afkap puts it, but I do think those attitudes can then be instilled or re-inforced in kids, even as they become adults they make not shake them off as easily or at all.

Maybe I'm still impressionable myself, but I'll find lines from songs I haven't listened to in months or years pop into my head, and when that stuff's bobbing around your subconscious, there's not really a way to "put it in context".

>I do think those attitudes can then be
>instilled or re-inforced in kids, even as they become adults
>they make not shake them off as easily or at all.

I guess this is when it comes down to empiricism.

"If something's constantly repeated to you, you're going to remember it"

That's the subtle idea in the thread.

But it doesn't consider
1) how often this is not true
2) how often it's true for *competing* ideas.
3) the inability to find statistical evidence of the effect

Where you and other cats seem to be saying to me, "You can't rule it out."

I'm arguing, "What makes you rule it in?"

I'm rehashing the same idea over and over again, without anyone really meeting the argument.

we're just left with our own preconceived notions

No I'm not aware of a scientific study on the point, just my own personal experience. And I don't think it's a clear, direct cause and effect, it's a lot muddier than that. Especially because the dips, in my view, are just one contributing factor. So I don't see how anyone is going to "meet your challenge".

folks don't acknowledge it though.

Despite all that I assume they themselves have lived through.

Song says this.
Mom says this.

Songs says this.
School says this.

Song says this.
Neighborhood drug dealer says this.

It's not like you've got a bunch of lab rats and you're feeding them 40 times their body weight in saccharine and looking for cancer.

Yet, you cats remain convinced, w/o any sort of reference to the rest of the world - that hip hop has *some* harmful effect - yet you can't explain what that effect is, who is affected, and how we can see the effects.

Me, Pra, and the rest of the righteous, connect the ills of the neighborhood with things like
- lack of proper and effective education
- lack of available low skill jobs
- lack of social services
- loss of political efficacy.
- people making poor decisions, but being treated differently by the law and law enforcement - than their simularly situated white or rural/suburban black counterparts

Our ideas are well supported and make sense.

You guys are going on gut feeling.

I honestly don't understand how anyone can listen to rap, not look into those environments, or worse yet, grow up in the hood and think that rap music made one bit of difference in the lives they live, in the lives their friends and neighbors live, in the lives their parents and grandparents live.

Yet, a cat like me, is in the minority.

one
k. orr

the entertainment you choose has an effect on the choices you make, and the way you live your life.

Movies/TV/Books/Music/Other forms of art

They have an effect on how you view the world, how you view a succesful life, how you look at the opposite sex, etc etc etc.

No you're not gonna hear a song and then go shoot someone directly because of it or mug a pizza delivery guy because of dead prez. But the cumulative effect is there. And no it's not the main factor, or the direct determining factor, I'm not saying dipset's music has a bigger effect on kids' lives than growing up in a bad neighborhood with the cops as an occupying army and your single parent is working all the time or not working enough and your school is crumbling and you know mainstream society fears, hates, and is fascinated by you. I'm not saying it's the main factor, it may be the smallest one. But I don't see how you can completely deny it as a factor either.

The things I've read/listened to/watched have definitely had an impact on the way I see and think about the world. Do you really need an empirical study to admit that? To me that's like demanding an empirical study for the sky being blue or concrete being hard.

I've heard your "you buy the rims because you were going to buy them anyway, not because the song told you to" argument, but were half the boys in Harlem going to wear pink shirts anyway? If the Dips have that much influence, is it really such a stretch to think that they're having an impact beyond just wardrobe choices?

People aren't sheep, but they're not islands either, and even if rappers are only influencing your choice of alcoholic beverage, or color of clothing, that's still an impact.

people who thinks that popular media/art (TV, music, radio, film, etc) has no influence on peoples lives at all, right? just wondering.

>I honestly don't understand how anyone can listen to rap,
>not look into those environments, or worse yet, grow up in
>the hood and think that rap music made one bit of difference
>in the lives they live, in the lives their friends and
>neighbors live, in the lives their parents and grandparents
>live.

*some* influence

The question is matter of degree and the significance.

Having known lots of failed and jailed drug dealers, knowing their stories, the music they listened to is of little significance.

Rewind to the 70's, those same cats (demographically speaking) were listening to the soul you cats worship - yet they too shot mf'ers up, cut cats, wore fancy clothes, wanted caddilacs with fancy wheels. Pusherman for chrissakes.

Yet you guys maintain that influence of popular media is rather significant on making decisions.

Where as we don't think popular media is significant, especially when compared with more viable things like, say hunger or sex drive.

That's how this ended last time I had this discussion.

Cats holding onto 1 single factor as being somewhat significant in the face of dozens more plausible factors that are readily understood by anyone who deep in their heart doesn't hate rap music or the people who make it.

You cats have to have some sort of motivation to cling to this idea that pop culture on the grand scale of things is that important.

Something about gangsta rap makes you throw logic out of the window.

I'm not gonna speak on y'alls psychological motivations, that's for you and the rest to mull over.

My point has been made.

one
k. orr

g-rap wasn't at its height yet, but these was the most violent years for los angeles.

as g-rap got more popular, violence decreased.

i'm not suggesting a correlation, but that's the point. there's not really a correlation.

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

i'm not even saying that there's a direct correlation between violent music and violent reality.

what i AM saying is that the general "soul" of our people seems to be becoming degraded.

i'll have to talk about this more tomorrow, though

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

From the tone of this response, it seems like youre being sarcastic to the idea of anyone speaking about something that he/she finds "immoral" and youre making it seem like the idea of "morals" is not even relevant to the conversation.

However this argument goes nowhere because I could go around killing people and you could come up to me and say "dawgs you cant go around killing people, life is sacred" and I could respond much like how you respond "oh how moralistic of you" and then proceed to behead you. And I would be having the same rationale as you in your response.

cats be comdemning niggas to hell on some levitical law shit, throwin down stone tablets or what not. won't give niggas the same consideration they give others, dehumanize us with the dismissiveness, but gonna call us soulless.

i don't tolerate the criticism of outside ass niggas. until you mourn and celebrate with us you can't comment on our soul.

i seen niggas cry. i've witnessed they hope.

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

if yall aint "soulless" then why defend "soulless" shit? Nobody is saying that this generation lacks soul just that it is losing it and if it has a soul that soul is inadequate.

you missed me.

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

allowing rappers to cop out of responsibility since '88... weak.

it's art.

chuck d just took his shit too seriously.

i don't apply journalistic ethics to my music.

like good art it can be very tellin of the human experience tho. i'm not sayin it's a literal play-by-play of life in the hood, but you can learn a lot about the concerns and motivations of niggas from emcees. sometimes that shit ain't nice at all, and as long as shit ain't nice in the hood, it shouldn't be.

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

I just smell a lot of red herrings throughout this post--trying to delegitimize the writer, bringing up the names of other rap groups, etc. etc. Of course any criticism of art can be shrugged off with claims of artistic license and such. But I don't understand why Dip Set fans are so defensive... you can appreciate the music, as I do, but let's be real -- they have a toxic effect on impressionable youth. So do video games, so do other rap songs, so do a lot of things. But as far as I can tell, the writer is making a specific point about a specific group.

where he wrote about the young mother convulsing, that shit touched me.

i still think what folks are addressing here is the symptom and not the problem tho. i acknowledge that symptoms can spawn problems of their own and perpetuate the one at hand, but folks ultimately gotta holla at the root of the shit.

havin had folks close to me fall victim to crack, and bullets, and hoe'n, and all that, i know shit is real and think it foul to celebrate, but i also know the shit is deeper than some beats and rhymes.

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

the dips ain't "symptoms." even tho juelz calls himself human crack, the nigga is more complex than merely being an epidemic. some of the shit he say is negative, some of it is positive, but the shit he talkin about is ultimately, as dp'z put it so eloquently, bigger than hip-hop.

if anything, you gotta thank rap for killin the crack game. after niggas started rhymin about it, who listenin really wanted to smoke that shit? and after the customer base lessened and niggas saw you could make more dough rhymin, a lot more kids is turnin to that instead of crack pushin.

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

that's why none of these mubuckas LIKE what people like the dips say cuz, them being able to sling tapes out of their basements has leveled the buppie/yuppie playing field to about even....now they have no reason to think that having the degrees/money they have makes them "better" than a blk man in the ghetto that can have a hit song & make thier "degreed money" look like loose change...with just one hit song.

as President of Dipset Corp?

you sound like youve got the soul of an accountant there. as if people are criticising dips just because theyre millionaires (thousandaires might be more like it though).......

>as President of Dipset Corp?
>


shutthe fuck up. just because i don't shit on each & every person in the world, like urself, doesn't mean shit. i'm not gonna shit on everyone, cuz it's not constructive...it's bitter & no one likes a bitter ass,...not even themselves.

>you sound like youve got the soul of an accountant there. as
>if people are criticising dips just because theyre
>millionaires (thousandaires might be more like it
>though).......


i bet camron has more money TODAY then the "average" yuppie will accrue in 20 years. i bet u cold hard cash he does.....+ with all that money he stockpiled from slinging rocks. hes definitely a millionaire

lol

>
>i bet camron has more money TODAY then the "average" yuppie
>will accrue in 20 years. i bet u cold hard cash he
>does.....+ with all that money he stockpiled from slinging
>rocks. hes definitely a millionaire

This is absolutely ludicrous. Don't put too much stock in MTV cribs.

>i bet camron has more money TODAY then the "average" yuppie
>will accrue in 20 years. i bet u cold hard cash he
>does.....+ with all that money he stockpiled from slinging
>rocks. hes definitely a millionaire

i have grown bored with this topic

this is my first time even checking this post since Monday

....are criticizing the Dips' lyrical content because the Dips are making money? You really think someone like Afkap is that shallow? That's a bit ridiculous, Fire. You think Afkap looks at his bank statement, then signs on and criticizes the Dips? LOL.
____

Stiffed...fall in line, fall in love...http://www.stiffedmusic.com/video/smiths.mov

Please force them to keep counting your votes until we see who really won the election this year. Thanks.

Albums I've Been Listening to NonStop Recently

E-Rule, "Cold Currentz" (one of the most underrated emcees out, dope beats, ferocious delivery, street knowledge blended with 5% theology, ridiculously well crafted multiple-syllable rhyme schemes, how are people sleeping on this cat?)

...too many maybe to reflect on here but I'mma try.

I'm not an American black, or white. I'm from Bangladesh. Muslim. I grew up in various spots in Bangladesh, NYC, East Cleveland/Akron and a whole lot of other spots. I spent years living in black neighborhoods and grew up listening to a lot of rap.

In my opinion something has changed within American black folks from when I first came into encounter with them and from what I see now. Theres this celebration of cynicism and nihilism. I mean theres some things that were said in this post that when i first came to this country I straight identified with as being "white." Now I hear nappy headed people repeating the same things. "Its just entertainment, violence was there before Dipset, how moralistic of you , etc" I mean violence as entertainment, the degradation of women as entertainment it dont seem right to me when any group does it but when blacks do it its just mad disappointing. What basically listening to this music does is that it basically DESENSITIZES people to killing and humiliating punishment of sexual or violent natures. It makes it fun to laugh at somebody who gets shot or make you think youre a "man" (lol) if you make a chick swallow. However rap is not the only thing that is doing this so just blaming rap is rather stupid.

Another thing is that Fab Five Freddy said in an interview "Theres more killing on records then there is on the streets." This is one aspect I dont fully understand. In Bangladesh I know gangstas, I have some in my family. This kind of music would never sell over there. "Gangsta" aint nothin cool, because most gangstas rape, and murder men women children whoever for money. Theyre the worst types of people (for the most part there are exceptions like the village or don of the slum who supports the people in his slum) and nobody would want to sing songs praising their lifestyle. Why is it that its like that over here in America? And if some black person is gonna tell me "well Americans have always loved the gangsta and it sells" then that proves to me there seems to be no line between a lot of black people and white people in terms of how they think because that is the whitest most European derived thing I can imagine anyone saying. It seems basically that black people are becoming "white" in many ways especially in how they think. How you think is different from what you think (like for example supporting affirmative action or not) but how you think is the rationale and thought process going into your opinion.

I think the race of the person who wrote this article is important in a subconscious way. I think people dont like these arguments and defend the rappers because there have been many white racist people whove made these arguments and used it to justify racism. I think people are arguing about this in a similar manner to how people responded to Cosby's comments.

Desensitizing Americans to violence has been a long process. Rap is just the latest tool to do it. It is done because America commits this violence and atrocities and knows that sexual torture goes on and people getting shot up happens and the American government is largely responsible. Americans need to see violence and sexual humiliation as entertainment because they have to be not shocked at what is really going on outside of this country. Defending this crap is actually rather imperialistic actually.

>...too many maybe to reflect on here but I'mma try.
>
>I'm not an American black, or white.

You can't really discuss whether or not black music has any effect on black children since you have none in your family?

What's the point of telling us your background unless you want us to exclude you?

the point of telling you my ethnicity was to provide some sort of context as to where and how Im coming to my observations. Black and Latino, white children are all affected by all this stuff (movies, music, etc). So if I told you that I was Puerto Rican living in Harlem I would be excluded? Thats interesting but not reality.

What Im saying is this argument is a general argument going in many places regarding many different cultures. You can wish to exclude me but making it as if this is particular to black people is just not in tune with reality. Yall live in America and unfortunately a lot of the things that go on here live in black Americans.Not having black kids in my family or whatever is completely irrelevant. Black kids and black people dont live by themselves and they watch the same programs as Latino kids or a lot of other immigrant kids. These same sociological/psychological things are affecting everybody here. Do blacks have a seperate country? a seperate economy? Theyre not affected at all by national phenomena at all? What I've seen is that many blacks have integrated not economically but with their minds and hearts into the mainstream modern view of things. It even shapes your dissent.

If you wanted to exclude me, why did you even respond?

"In my opinion something has changed within American black folks from when I first came into encounter with them and from what I see now."

You're not black, so your opinion of anything changing with American blacks is null and void.

Even suggesting you have a valid opinion is preposterous.

Thats very idealistic of you. Of course once again not very realistic. Even the hip hop/rappers you are so passionate about doesn't/don't follow this maxim in regards to other non-black cultures. Theres a chorus being repeated in clubs everywhere down South which says "Wild like the Taliban!" I doubt that T.I. has any idea of who and or what conditions made the Taliban, the peasants who joined the Taliban because their generation saw their vilages wiped out by Soviet bombs and the atrocities they saw, yet he thinks theyre "wild." The very rappers in this thread refer to themselves as the "mujahedin."I doubt they know anything except from what they see on TV footage. Yet I would not tell them that they cannot talk about these things because theyre not Muslim or not from Afghanistan because in all reality what they see on TV is their experience with it and its very real.Ice Cube should not talk about Koreans in Black Korea since he doesnt know anything about Korean culture. The education and logic you use in your schooling is not black , its mad European yet you expound on it and wax philosophical. Matter of fact you use it to analyze the problems of black people! Producers should not touch any records to sample that are not considered black American music right since it aint black?They shouldnt think its hot or have no opinion of its musical merits because its not black correct? You shouldnt talk about white culture because theyre white and youre not white and you dont know a damn thing about them correct? It seems your argument has no bearing because in reality nobody follows what youre saying and black people themselves are no exception. Once rap music(and in essence a part of black culture) became a product(record, CD, tape) it is open for everyone to critique whether you like it or not. Its everywhere.A lot of things are effecting a lot of other things in other places. When I went back to Bangladesh, all the Westernised rich kids were pumping Redman, in the 80s Guns and Roses, in the 70s Abba. But I cant say anything about it because its black and Im not black correct? Or because Im not a white rocker from L.A. or from Sweden right?

The particulars to any ethnic group are one thing but Ive already mentioned to you that these are general social phenomena that is affecting people in this country. Matter of fact there are many white people who are going through similar problems as American blacks are going through (money, breakup of family) but its effects are different on every group but the same dislocation is happening. The same arguments have been going on in that ethnic group as well. Except they have it a lttle easier because the consciousness of race doesnt play a factor. White peoples idiots on wax arent racialised by the media and that is a big difference.

You not making sense.

This ain't idealism.

As a non-black person, I don't care how many black friends you have, and how many black neighborhoods you've lived in, - you don't know shit about black people until you are black.

The fact that TI is talking about the Taliban, Method's got PLO style, just proves my point. Them mf'ers don't know what they talking about EITHER, and they shouldn't be speaking on shit that they don't know. But guess what, they ain't trying to teach you shit about the Taliban or the Palestinians, or whoever gets mentioned. It's called poetic license, specifically use of similies and metaphors.

>Ice Cube should not talk about Koreans in
>Black Korea since he doesnt know anything about Korean
>culture.

Did you even listen to that song? He's talking about Korean shopowners in his BLACK neighborhood, who he didn't approve of.

Mf'er wasn't trying to explain the significance of Pak and Park, or how there are 6 very common surnames in Korea.

Do you listen to music, or just skim through it?

The education and logic you use in your schooling
>is not black , its mad European yet you expound on it and
>wax philosophical. Matter of fact you use it to analyze the
>problems of black people!

Please - all that shit was stolen from the Egyptians by the greeks and romans.

Forgotten by the same white man, during the "dark ages", but kept alive by Abu al-Walid Muhammad ibn Rushd.

So please spare me with your paper tigers.

> Once rap
>music(and in essence a part of black culture) became a
>product(record, CD, tape) it is open for everyone to
>critique whether you like it or not.

You're critiquing black people.

You need to step back and check yourself.

If black folk lived in their own country with no access to any other people or any other culture, then what you said would be fine. However they dont and since we all live in the same country and many of us live in the same neighborhoods what goes on in one affects the other. You might say "I cant speak on whats going on in the Muslim world because I'm not Muslim " but what is happening in the Muslim world should be analyzed and dialogued with because 9/11 happened. People over here died because people over there are dead/dying. Imagining that immigrants of various nationalities who are coming in to white/black neighborhoods to start businesses doesnt affect you is foolish.However you would have to critique/judge/opine on what is driving them to in your opinion lets say take money out of the community. The economic policies(promoted/enforced by this country) that in relative terms benefit you but extorts their country affects them and how they think and what they do when they come here. Assimilation by immigrants in this country happens in two ways depending on environment. They could either "act white" or "act black." Now you can ask two questions

1. Why are immigrants assimilating? What values/cultural traditions are they giving up or keeping?
2. What values are they picking up or not picking up? Why?

So in this sense asking or me having an opinion on what is happening with white people and black people is important to me because the assimilation process is inevitable and I should have an idea of what my cousin is learning. Is it as superficial as knowing how to rock his Uptowns/Timbs or knowing the intricacies of My Chemical Romance? Or is it deeper than that?






>
>Do you listen to music, or just skim through it?
I listen to it, but it seems like you skimmed through my earlier posts. I told you about perception is very real. To the point where it dictates reality. In the world we live in, people see truth on TV. A white dude might not even know any Arabs/Muslims/Blacks but through TV he'll get his opinion and he will lets say go burn down the local masjid because "the Muslims hate freedom." He isnt Muslim, doesnt know any, yet he has an opinion and will act on it. Things people see on TV might even make people racist because it subconsciously shapes how they view other types of people in real life. I know as a Muslim I have to worry about how people who pray like me are represented. I could get killed or my fam get attacked as is happening to Muslims now. I mean if youre not worried about how repreentations of blacks on TV appear to other groups that you interact with, then I guess you have a luxury I dont have.


>
>The education and logic you use in your schooling
>>is not black , its mad European yet you expound on it and
>>wax philosophical. Matter of fact you use it to analyze the
>>problems of black people!
>
>Please - all that shit was stolen from the Egyptians by the
>greeks and romans.
>
>Forgotten by the same white man, during the "dark ages", but
>kept alive by Abu al-Walid Muhammad ibn Rushd.
>
>So please spare me with your paper tigers.

Youre proving my point very well here. The fact that you summed up in a seemingly objective manner approximately 2000 years of history in two sentences is the type of thinking that I'm talking about. Now I wont use the white/European model and simply say that this is the modern/postmodern way of thinking. Life is complex. Can you even tell me the major things in your life (all the personal relationships, external influences, experiences, etc) just like that? So how could you even try to do that with 2000 or so years of millions of peoples lives and say "this this and this happened." Written documents spread out over many years and radiocarbon dating can't tell you much. It usually leads to a lot of conjecture which is basically opinion. But the modern mind thinks that it can encapsulate the complex processes through various cultures in various places (like you just did here)and make an objective point. So yes your logic and reasoning is definitely modern and since modernity came from Europe...

This is my basic question.

"hey man, don't you know
in order for us to make this thing work
we gotta get rid of the pimps, and the pushers, and then start
all over agian clean
NIGGAZ you crazy!"

^When Dre said that, was he really reflecting what a lot of black folk felt/feel? If so, why?I mean that line was funny to me when I first heard it. But is he reflecting apathy/disillusionment and why are there many people on this board defending it? Is this even a good way to start the question ? You tell me.

The reason I brought up Bangladesh is because like most of the world right now, pimps, pushers, gangsters exist in our society in the open. But we havent gone to the level where Dre feels like its "crazy" to think about "changing." I mean we cant desensitize ourselves because that shit is right there right in front of us every.single.day. We gon lose our mind and souls if we do that. If life is hard in the hood, then why is it popular to glamorize shit that is a product of life being hard?

Peace.

u're not trying to be a white american are u?

masquerading as objective.

" I spent years living in black neighborhoods and grew up listening to a lot of rap."

some of his best friends are black

"In my opinion something has changed within American black folks from when I first came into encounter with them and from what I see now."


the blacks haven't lived up to HIS expectations

" Theres this celebration of cynicism and nihilism. "

the blacks are the only race doing this

"I mean theres some things that were said in this post that when i first came to this country I straight identified with as being "white." Now I hear nappy headed people repeating the same things. "

(now this SHIT RIGHT FUCKING HERE PISSES ME OFF! did he just say "nappy headed"?) the blacks, the nappy heads are acting white......




"Its just entertainment, violence was there before Dipset, how moralistic of you , etc" I mean violence as entertainment, the degradation of women as entertainment it dont seem right to me when any group does it but when blacks do it its just mad disappointing."

again, the blacks have disappointed another race of people.....cuz we, the blacks, need to be concerned with what other races think of us & not what we want to think and do. i mean, the blacks own conciousness/self esteem/self worth doesn't matter if the others don't like it.

" What basically listening to this music does is that it basically DESENSITIZES people to killing and humiliating punishment of sexual or violent natures. It makes it fun to laugh at somebody who gets shot or make you think youre a "man" (lol) if you make a chick swallow. However rap is not the only thing that is doing this so just blaming rap is rather stupid."

who the fuck allowed this idiot to even listen to rap music? his interpretation of it is FAR WORSE & MORE DANGEROUS than any black inner city youth listening to it could ever be. ever.

"Another thing is that Fab Five Freddy said in an interview "Theres more killing on records then there is on the streets." This is one aspect I dont fully understand."

& there u have it again...someone that doesn't live it, trying to talk it

" In Bangladesh I know gangstas, I have some in my family. This kind of music would never sell over there."

the streets of bangladesh.......need i say more?

"Gangsta" aint nothin cool, because most gangstas rape, and murder men women children whoever for money. Theyre the worst types of people (for the most part there are exceptions like the village or don of the slum who supports the people in his slum) and nobody would want to sing songs praising their lifestyle."

um, has anyone ever heard of "lost in translation"?


" Why is it that its like that over here in America? And if some black person is gonna tell me "well Americans have always loved the gangsta and it sells" then that proves to me there seems to be no line between a lot of black people and white people in terms of how they think because that is the whitest most European derived thing I can imagine anyone saying. It seems basically that black people are becoming "white" in many ways especially in how they think."

ho boy .............


"How you think is different from what you think (like for example supporting affirmative action or not) but how you think is the rationale and thought process going into your opinion."


"CAN WE GET AN INTERPRETER OUT THIS BITCH?!"


"I think the race of the person who wrote this article is important in a subconscious way."

what the fuck?

" I think people dont like these arguments and defend the rappers because there have been many white racist people whove made these arguments and used it to justify racism. I think people are arguing about this in a similar manner to how people responded to Cosby's comments."

am i missing something? what's the point?


"Desensitizing Americans to violence has been a long process. Rap is just the latest tool to do it."

so now, let me get this straight...if a young black male makes a "lyrically violent" record, he's a gangsta...but if a young white filmmaker makes a "graphically violent" movie, he's a genius?

" It is done because America commits this violence and atrocities and knows that sexual torture goes on and people getting shot up happens and the American government is largely responsible. Americans need to see violence and sexual humiliation as entertainment because they have to be not shocked at what is really going on outside of this country. Defending this crap is actually rather imperialistic actually. "


interpreter?

>" I spent years living in black neighborhoods and grew up
>listening to a lot of rap."
>
>some of his best friends are black
>
>"In my opinion something has changed within American black
>folks from when I first came into encounter with them and
>from what I see now."
>
>
>the blacks haven't lived up to HIS expectations
>
>" Theres this celebration of cynicism and nihilism. "
>
>the blacks are the only race doing this
>
>"I mean theres some things that were said in this post that
>when i first came to this country I straight identified with
>as being "white." Now I hear nappy headed people repeating
>the same things. "
>
>(now this SHIT RIGHT FUCKING HERE PISSES ME OFF! did he just
>say "nappy headed"?) the blacks, the nappy heads are acting
>white......
>
>
>
>
>"Its just entertainment, violence was there before Dipset,
>how moralistic of you , etc" I mean violence as
>entertainment, the degradation of women as entertainment it
>dont seem right to me when any group does it but when blacks
>do it its just mad disappointing."
>
>again, the blacks have disappointed another race of
>people.....cuz we, the blacks, need to be concerned with
>what other races think of us & not what we want to think and
>do. i mean, the blacks own conciousness/self esteem/self
>worth doesn't matter if the others don't like it.
>
>" What basically listening to this music does is that it
>basically DESENSITIZES people to killing and humiliating
>punishment of sexual or violent natures. It makes it fun to
>laugh at somebody who gets shot or make you think youre a
>"man" (lol) if you make a chick swallow. However rap is not
>the only thing that is doing this so just blaming rap is
>rather stupid."
>
>who the fuck allowed this idiot to even listen to rap music?
> his interpretation of it is FAR WORSE & MORE DANGEROUS than
>any black inner city youth listening to it could ever be.
>ever.
>
>"Another thing is that Fab Five Freddy said in an interview
>"Theres more killing on records then there is on the
>streets." This is one aspect I dont fully understand."
>
>& there u have it again...someone that doesn't live it,
>trying to talk it
>
>" In Bangladesh I know gangstas, I have some in my family.
>This kind of music would never sell over there."
>
>the streets of bangladesh.......need i say more?
>
> "Gangsta" aint nothin cool, because most gangstas rape, and
>murder men women children whoever for money. Theyre the
>worst types of people (for the most part there are
>exceptions like the village or don of the slum who supports
>the people in his slum) and nobody would want to sing songs
>praising their lifestyle."
>
>um, has anyone ever heard of "lost in translation"?
>
>
>" Why is it that its like that over here in America? And if
>some black person is gonna tell me "well Americans have
>always loved the gangsta and it sells" then that proves to
>me there seems to be no line between a lot of black people
>and white people in terms of how they think because that is
>the whitest most European derived thing I can imagine anyone
>saying. It seems basically that black people are becoming
>"white" in many ways especially in how they think."
>
>ho boy .............
>
>
> "How you think is different from what you think (like for
>example supporting affirmative action or not) but how you
>think is the rationale and thought process going into your
>opinion."
>
>
>"CAN WE GET AN INTERPRETER OUT THIS BITCH?!"
>
>
>"I think the race of the person who wrote this article is
>important in a subconscious way."
>
>what the fuck?
>
>" I think people dont like these arguments and defend the
>rappers because there have been many white racist people
>whove made these arguments and used it to justify racism. I
>think people are arguing about this in a similar manner to
>how people responded to Cosby's comments."
>
>am i missing something? what's the point?
>
>
>"Desensitizing Americans to violence has been a long
>process. Rap is just the latest tool to do it."
>
>so now, let me get this straight...if a young black male
>makes a "lyrically violent" record, he's a gangsta...but if
>a young white filmmaker makes a "graphically violent" movie,
>he's a genius?
>
>" It is done because America commits this violence and
>atrocities and knows that sexual torture goes on and people
>getting shot up happens and the American government is
>largely responsible. Americans need to see violence and
>sexual humiliation as entertainment because they have to be
>not shocked at what is really going on outside of this
>country. Defending this crap is actually rather
>imperialistic actually. "
>
>
>interpreter?

You should not let emotion cloud your thinking, but guide it. I have no expectations of any group , those were simply my observations of black Americans when i first got here. Im not here to impress blacks or vice versa. If you read my first response I basically said that this cynicism and nihilism is a general phenomenon but its roots I would argue come out of Europe because of the stuff that ideas from this place has done to the world and to Europeans and their descendents themselves.So it is disappointing for me that blacks who complain about white culture and rightfully so in many points would so willingly join it. I mean all that cynicism and straight desensitzation of violence was something I associated with mostly white people but blacks are now quite involved in thinking like that Obviously they didint join it but socioeconomic conditions forced it upon them. But then again youre a people who still maintained family values and faith during slavery but the poverty and drugs of the last thirty years seem to have dislocated many people but American blacks were hit hard. So my question is what happened to your survival techniques?

As far as the other comments, Ill break it down for you. The violence in movies, video games,pornography, music desensitizes people to violence and degredation and treats these things as pure entertainment when in reality these things are happening to real people in the world. Many of these atrocities are done by America or by governments supported by America. Its offensive to me because people are being slain, shot, knifed, raped. Village girls kidnapped from their villages are having to suck dick and swallow cum whereas over here these same actions are being seen as entertainment. We laugh or think its funny .We see Rambo shoot up like a million Vietnamese or Arab looking cats but then see on CNN that shit actually happen and it dont phase us. We see Abu Ghraib torture victims and arent shocked. To a person like me who has seen many of these things happen in my life, its disgusting when somebody out there treating its like a joke. Most people in the Third World woud find these people to be cowards, but over here they considered "real." Shit is backwards over here and its just the general culture. Im talking about disappointment in American blacks since theres a specific history yall have which would make me think that you wouldnt succumb but ive seen that is not true.


As far as white filmmaker being a genius and blacks are not, i never said that or even implied that in my post. Rather its the fact that I see Black Americans doing things I normally associated with white culture thats my disappointment. I dont even beleive in black or white but was using that black/white divide to ellicit a response because it seems like the only one that gets a response. The same social dislocations are affecting everybody in the world. Whites have become so cynical thats its considered part of their culture. Whereas blacks it seems have been integrating themselves into it.

I hope I answered your questions. Peace.

u're not black
u weren't born here
i don't even know if u're "american"
u lived around blacks for a specified period of time
u prolly dont live around them now, cuz of "the way they act"
u take a subculture of black culture (hip hop)
u take ur read, not lived synapsis, of american & white culture
& derived from that that blacks don't "know how to act like blacks" (whatever the fuck that means)


u are so far removed from my culture AND theirs that you really can't speak on shit, therefore u don't have a leg to stand on....hell u aint even got crutches

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

And I wish I had time to really digest and then dissect the topic.

I'd be lying if I said that I never cut for music with questionable material. I think it's human nature (not just black people) to sometimes be a bit enthralled by the idea of a renegade and being able to do things we're not supposed to do.

I also agree with Praverbs. Hip-hop is a reflection of something deeper. It's a symptom and not a cause.

Unfortunately, those outside of hip-hop often use the worst aspects of the art to attack the whole scene. In fact, I think that's how black folks are often treated in general. Bad acts by some reflect negatively on us all. Whether we should care or not is a whole other issue.

I read an article after that gunman killed the Pantera guitarist in Columbus last week. He defended the metal scene by saying that violent, angry music doesn't create violent vangry people. I think the same thing applies for hip-hop. But the "objectionable" material in hip-hop is a symptom of the same disease that makes cats live foul.

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

Can "objectionable" music always be defended by characterizing it as a symptom? Does that justify it all the time?

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

Dios Patria Libertad
---------------------

for the best eatery/deli/bakery in ny check out Paclo´s



and


http://www.nomarriage.com

Best Post of the year
-----------------------
"I"m glad I know nothing about film. It allows me to enjoy all sorts of crap you people butcher with insightful commentary" k. orr

NO DOUBT

if the detractors/haters/critics/whatever here liked the dips' music (see the above defence of snoop's horrid OTT misogynistic tendencies), would the dips be given more leeway?

isnt the dips goo-goo-ga-ga delivery insiduously helping their 'message' climb more easily into kids minds? (a la oochie wally or hard knock life)?

are people underestimating the intelligence or resistance of youth/kids to media and their ability to know whats right and whats not despite enjoying the music?

is it not a case of what praverbs and k_orr said above - that theres far more detrimental and pervasive influences that could lead kids astray before a song or group could? how can you prove that the dips' lyrical content is harmful?

is it not more a case of the dips being bad for race/rap representation in the media and people being bothered by this rather than the music/group actually affecting kids minds? or do people feel representation genuinely affects life of the consumers/viewers/listeners?

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/warscribe/110249910816624625/

all a nigga wanted was a li'l proof.

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

http://content.health.msn.com/content/article/61/68559.htm

and having video hoes as role models?

this shit is suspect on a few levels.

no variable isolation and their sample seems to be slanted toward getting specific results.

their claim is that rap video viewing is related to a string of violent behaviors, but they have no control group to test if these violent behaviors are a result of being young, sexually active, lower income, and in the inner city (which all these girls are).

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

I'd assume the study suggests that watching a lot of the videos leads to a general contempt for authority figures

They did isolate the variable of time spent watching videos, the control group didn't watch 'em.

It's not so easy to find a control group of kids with otherwise responsible parents who'll let 'em watch videos for several hours a day just in the interests of science, so yeah, there's probably less parental involvement in the lives of kids who were watching more videos. And correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation, and yadda yadda yadda. But the correlation is there.

"In these videos, men hold the power and women don't and as a result, are subservient. I'm not sure that the girls in our study were lashing out because of this, but more likely role-modeling the behaviors they see. The women in these videos are doing OK, they're hanging around with a man who is powerful, affluent, going to nice clubs and wearing nice clothes. For these girls, they may not be a bad thing."

i replied in the wrong spot, but this was in response to post #237.

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

against that perceived role.

According to this, http://www.kff.org/entmedia/1535-pressreleasefinal-doc.cfm, the average American child spends 38 hours per week consuming media outside of school. You really don't think that doesn't have a significant impact on how they perceive the world, the content of what they're consuming? That's probably more time than they spend doing anything else aside from school and sleeping.

it's hard to make the argument for causation.

one
k. orr

can you always pinpoint exactly why you do what you do?

Even if the argument becomes "these kids are coming from homes where they don't get enough parental supervision, so they wind up watching things they shouldn't", that still leaves the influence of those things they shouldn't watch somewhere in the mix, right, as a more substantial influence than you'd like to admit? If they're spending more waking hours consuming media than anything else (aside from maybe being in school), you don't think the content of that has a significant impact on their still-developing personalities?

You really think entertainment is a one-way street, and that the consumer has all the power?

You continue to not address the fact that Cam'n'nem got half the boys in Harlem (according to Fire, anyway), to wear pink. That doesn't show you anything?

Obviously kids' immediate environment and family situation will play a bigger role, but part of that family situation is how much unfiltered access to things they shouldn't be exposed to these kids are getting.

>can you always pinpoint exactly why you do what you do?

No, and that cuts both ways.

>Even if the argument becomes "these kids are coming from
>homes where they don't get enough parental supervision, so
>they wind up watching things they shouldn't", that still
>leaves the influence of those things they shouldn't watch
>somewhere in the mix, right, as a more substantial influence
>than you'd like to admit?

Johnny, you gotta make the argument, the thing does not speak for itself.

You want me to pull the reams and reams of studies on the effects of not having a parent at home? Of diet on early education?

I'm surprised you didn't pull that old study that showed an increase in violent behavior after boys watched so-called violent rap videos. At least you could see a correlation btwn the 2 in that study.

>If they're spending more waking
>hours consuming media than anything else (aside from maybe
>being in school),

And you get this from?

>you don't think the content of that has a
>significant impact on their still-developing personalities?

You make it sound as if counting all the other things in their lives like friends, family, neighborhood, church, school, et cetera as if I'm living in a fantasy world.

>You really think entertainment is a one-way street, and that
>the consumer has all the power?

What part of insignificant influence did I not argue above?

Make the argument that the influence is significant.
You don't seem to be doing so.

>You continue to not address the fact that Cam'n'nem got half
>the boys in Harlem (according to Fire, anyway), to wear
>pink. That doesn't show you anything?

Johnny, where do you live that a pink tee-shirt makes a difference?

Dem Franchise Boys did a song called White Tee.
Cam'Ron been wearing pink tees.
Guess what I saw a whole lot of this summer,

Pink and White Tees.

When yungstar was talking about switching from motorola to a prime co phone, guess what, I saw mad folks with a prime co phone after that.

But is that some sort of significant thing to you?

You're not really building an argument.

Jay Z mentions motorola 2 way pager, and motorola 2 way pagers get mad popular.

Juvenile says he doesn't rock Nikes, but reeboks, and reebok sales jump in TX and New Orleans.

Caddilac gets mentioned a lot by rappers, Caddilac then shows this to dealers and talking about their new urban buyers. So popular is this, that lincoln has a signature model of their navigator.

I don't think anyone doubts hip hop powers to influence market decisions.

But we're talking about a more than making a cat pick wire rims over chrome rims.

>Obviously kids' immediate environment and family situation
>will play a bigger role, but part of that family situation
>is how much unfiltered access to things they shouldn't be
>exposed to these kids are getting.

I've got to disagree.

A whole lot goes into making a criminal, into making a whore, whichever you folks are demonizing today.

But popular media being a significant part of that....

I'm done arguing, my case is above.
I've already addressed your ideas on significance.

You think those things are, I don't.

>You want me to pull the reams and reams of studies on the
>effects of not having a parent at home? Of diet on early
>education?
Do those all show causality, or just correlation?
>
>I'm surprised you didn't pull that old study that showed an
>increase in violent behavior after boys watched so-called
>violent rap videos. At least you could see a correlation
>btwn the 2 in that study.
You can see a correlation in this study too. Find me a group of otherwise responsible parents who'll let their kids watch videos several hours a day to see the effects. Whether they're just paranoid and pointing fingers at the wrong target or not, parents aren't gonna agree to that "for the good of science".
>
>>If they're spending more waking
>>hours consuming media than anything else (aside from maybe
>>being in school),
>
>And you get this from?
That other study I cited. The average American kid spends 38 hours per week consuming media.
>
>>you don't think the content of that has a
>>significant impact on their still-developing personalities?
>
>You make it sound as if counting all the other things in
>their lives like friends, family, neighborhood, church,
>school, et cetera as if I'm living in a fantasy world.
And you act like the media plays no role when they're hanging out with friends/family. Those things are not mutually exclusive. Kids today are more media-saturated than they've ever been. And whether that leads to them developing better media-bullshit filters or not, is a matter of some debate.
>
>>You really think entertainment is a one-way street, and that
>>the consumer has all the power?
>
>What part of insignificant influence did I not argue above?
>
>Make the argument that the influence is significant.
>You don't seem to be doing so.
How are you going to measure causality when it comes to human behavior when people usually can't articulate it themselves? I can show you correlations on certain types of media consumption and certain types of behaviors, but you can make a chicken and egg argument. I can show you figures on how much media kids are getting these days, relative to previous generations. But you have to put two and two together (or reject it and just say you think kids' media filters are much more finely tuned than previous generations, so you see no cause for alarm).
>
>>You continue to not address the fact that Cam'n'nem got half
>>the boys in Harlem (according to Fire, anyway), to wear
>>pink. That doesn't show you anything?
>
>Johnny, where do you live that a pink tee-shirt makes a
>difference?
Where do you live that wearing a pink t-shirt on a regular basis didn't put your sexuality in question as an adolescent? Cam has enough influence over kids, that if he says something's cool, it becomes cool. To me, that's beyond just what kind of cell phone to use, or what kind of pager, or what kind of rims.
>>Obviously kids' immediate environment and family situation
>>will play a bigger role, but part of that family situation
>>is how much unfiltered access to things they shouldn't be
>>exposed to these kids are getting.
>
>I've got to disagree.
>
>A whole lot goes into making a criminal, into making a
>whore, whichever you folks are demonizing today.
Are you comfortable up there on your high horse?

>A whole lot goes into making a criminal, into making a
>whore, whichever you folks are demonizing today.

it's like everybody forgot that these "demoralized" kids are listenin to shit not much worse than they were listenin to when they were younger (don't front like y'all wasn't on that g-rap or mobb deep as teenagers...and if you wasn't, you prolly a bandwagoner).

so i'm sayin, if y'all listen to violent shit, and they listen to violent shit, why did they turn "bad" and y'all didn't?

answer: a lot of reasons.

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

That stuff was out there, but it wasn't mainstream, it was the tape that you hid from your parents and listened to on your headphones, and you knew when you were listening to it that it was "wrong" (apologies to Af if I'm butchering your words). You weren't seeing the videos on MTV/BET during the day (though I can only speculate, 'cause I didn't have cable, but I would guess you didn't see g-rap make inroads there until wu-tang/the chronic/snoop hit, and even then they weren't getting much radio play in Boston, at least not to my knowledge).

Nowadays, is there any song that's too raw to get an edited version on the radio? Aside from Kanye, has anyone "positive" really broken through in the past few years? Boundaries have definitely been pushed, and not just in terms of hip hop, in terms of pop culture/media in general. It's not all a bad thing, but with the way kids are media-saturated these days, it definitely can be a bad thing, for parents who let TV raise their kids for them.

And I don't think anyone in here's saying that's the #1 thing in making people decide to be a criminal or a junkie or sell themselves. But I don't think you should just discount it as a factor as blithely as you and k seem to be able to. Sure you can find plenty of people who listened to it a lot and turned out fine. You can also find plenty of people who grew up in unfavorable family situations and turned out fine. It's a fallacy to say, "well I did that, and I turned out fine, therefore it's no great risk to anyone".

It's way too far down for many people to care, but just because dipset and g-rap are being singled out here, this is really just a catalyst for a bigger conversation. I know g-rap has been a whipping boy in this type of discussion many times before, and it's unfortunate it's that way again right now, but on the other hand, what fringe, "edgy" entertainment has made bigger mainstream inroads in the past 10-12 years than g-rap?

>Sure you can find plenty of people who listened to
>it a lot and turned out fine. You can also find plenty of
>people who grew up in unfavorable family situations and
>turned out fine. It's a fallacy to say, "well I did that,
>and I turned out fine, therefore it's no great risk to
>anyone".

and you wanna know why it is a fallacy to say that? because other factors are involved. factors that hold significantly more weight. so much weight, that they make discussions like these seem trife.

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

"why do y'all hate black people so much?" - k. orr

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

props

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

"why do y'all hate black people so much?" - k. orr

way better than i ever thought it could be. maybe purple haze is good. SAS crew however are wack.