okay, Malice and SoWhat convinced me to just go ahead and make the post even though i haven’t gotten it ironed out in my mind to the extent that i want to (but then again, do i ever?)

so… we were talking about Cool.

i said it’s the enemy of funkiness and freedom, citing the first time i watched Run-DMC’s “walk this way” video.

i didn’t really know Steve Tyler was at the time, but this is what i thought about him:

a) “he looks crazy”
b) “he takes drugs and might even be a homosexual”
c) “he looks like he’s having a lot of fun, and i want to be like him!”

on the other hand, Run and D - who up until this time had been cold as ice to me - looked like a couple of squares with their poses and their very apparent reluctance to commit to the song (i wasn’t surprised when years later i learned that they didn’t want to do the song… they didn’t look like they wanted to be there at all).

hell, years later they looked like squares again when Kid Rock pulled in Aerosmith and Run-DMC to join him onstage at the VMAs. Kid said that he came up with this routine where him, Steve and Run would throw the microphones amongst themselves in some sort of symbolic gesture. Run, being committed to the codes of Cool, refused to do it because he thought it was silly and embarrassing. Steven Tyler said “hey, i’ll try anything.”

Cool is about conformity. it’s like high school, where you lived in terror of being ridiculed for wearing the wrong clothes, listening to the wrong music, being seen associating with the wrong people.

Cool is about fear.

George Clinton was not a proponent of Cool… all those references to putting on his sunglasses so he can be cool were satirical, weren’t they? i mean, that’s how i always heard them, anyway…

but of course, in “mommy, what’s a funkadelic?” he talks about running off to New York City and getting his hair processed, and wearing slick suits and thinking he was cool…

“I was cool,” he says. “I was cool. But I had no groove, no groove. I had no groove.”

anyway… as SoWhat pointed out, today the standard of Cool is hip-hop (which George once said he thought was the corniest bunch of motherfuckers he’s ever seen “they kinda reminded me of white people… or suburbia black people.”)

i want to talk about the concept of Cool in black music, with emphasis on hip-hop. i think Warren Coolidge’s perennial rant about the narrowing of black music will most certainly come into play too, since Cool limits the ideas of what is or ain’t “Black”

also, consider the below quote by k_orr:

“That's almost what black cool is about.

This idea is generated by blacks, developed by blacks, and gate kept by blacks. And although coolness is not inherent in people, you still have to subscribe to the idea.

So if you're not Dunks or Ones and a throwback, you're DKNY or Kenneth Cole'd out.

If you're not dipset and lil jon'd, you're playing that John Legend.

You might be able to bring up TV on the Radio, but God forbid someone that you know and holds your coolness/blackness in high regad see you actually stand in line to see TvOTR. You'd prolly be right next to some pierced up Beckies, and holding a conversation with some Weezer looking mf'er.”

discuss.

www.fwmj.com | www.fwmj.com/word | www.fwmj.com/x | www.ohsonappy.com

"i think you know my homey, too... i.d.? he says you're a cool motherfucker - contrary to whatever else i hear." - Quidom

Is a lot like trying to discuss sex on.... well on an internet message board. Just being here negates most of your authority on the subject.
But anyway, I'd say that what "is" cool, and what "we do to be perceived as cool" are two completely different things. Let's not confuse the two.

but Cool IS all about perception.

there is no such thing as Cool apart from what we perceive of it, right?

Face it. Stop trying to define it.

Stuff that ain't cool, if done by the right person, will be rationalized into coolness.

Stuff that really ain't cool, say statutory rape, pedophilia, water sports, heroin use, will be put on the back burner as we concentrate on the person's coolness.

As a community, we often seem to tell ourselves lies in order to keep the facade of cool going.

I read an essay about cool that changed my life.
And now I have to rethink the whole cool nonsense.

8 pages on cool?

hell naw.

I'd be interested to read it, or at least an abstract or whatever

it's one of the few mags i've decided to keep.

Are Black People Cooler than White People by Donnell Alexander - Might Jul/Aug 1997
________________________________________________________________
Josh Davis, aka Dj Shadow, grew up white in Davis, California, with a complete hard-on for the hip hop music he heard on the radio. A more suburban milieu than his would be hard to find, but Davis sought the vibe that moved him, accessing Los Angeles pioneer station KDAY in the late "80s through AM maneuverings and making record store pilgrimages to the Bay Area. He first performed in public at UC-Davis' Black Family Day, a Northern California institution whose name explains itself.

It's not the basic embrace of an aspect of black culture that makes Josh Davis cool. Such is the assumption that chops cool at its knees and hampers relationships between black and white America. ("if we could just appreciate each other for who we are, and wholeheartedly accept and admire what the other has to offer then we could all get along!" What bullshit.) Black culture, hip hop in particular, meant so much to Davis that he immersed himself in it until the parts he derived directly from the culture and that which originate from within in him were inseparable. In return for meeting the vibe more than halfway, he became one of the most naturally flowing and expansive Dj's the world has known.

As the concept of deejaying grew, in both popularity and scope, beyond what the first wave of South Bronx innovators practiced. deejays like DJ Shadow and (and a trillion other alternative" {read: not black} spinners) received an added bonus, one most never requested. The white pop establishment -- the only pop establishment -- lauded the shit out of him, making its embrace Exhibit A in how to distance itself from a black vibe that white power can only hope to contain, not stop. Captains of marketing and their lieutenants who edit music magazines crowned Davis American's first turntable God, as if Dj Premier had never happened, as if 500 innovative Dj's hadn’t sprung wild and free on the west coast in the wake of what the South Bronx wrought. Hearing themselves in the expense of his style, the marketing people distanced themselves from the quality that gave Shadow access to greatness. The kid that hip hop cool saved was turned into a modern Bill Haley and used to slap down his spiritual father.
_________________________________________________________

I read it again today, and I don't buy a whole lot of it now.

But it reads good, like a lot of this type of stuff.

I'm suspicious of stuff that reads good, cause my experience is that world isn't nearly so elegant.

the second paragraph is interesting, the third is the more typical/boilerplate. And I dunno if I buy the thing as a whole.

it's the longest article I think i've ever seen in a magazine.
It's sprawling.

he was the right person to bring that colour to the hip hop loving masses and now its okay to be pretty in pink.

The problem is cool has replaced popular as far as a term.
Cool denotes some kind of edginess, a 'I am here first', the trendmakers, the rest just follow.

While they may use the term 'cool' its really more along the lines of playing it safe with image, which is as uncool as one can get. I don't think its a problem specifically in black music tho, at all.

i mean Cool as a codified standard for Black male behavior.

be cool

it's cool to not care about it, it's even cool to like bad shit on purpose for the irony factor.

it

of the ending of the Hullabalooza episode of the Simpsons, where Marge keeps asking the kids how she can be cool.

I think cool may be a partnership.

I decide i'm going to wear Nike woven prestos because I like it.
You notice it, you like it, and you want some, and now *I* am cool. Eventually someone will discover you doing it, and think *you* are cool.

So who made the woven prestos cool, you or me?
Or the designer @ Nike?

Cool may be a partnership, a relationship between the person doing it and the person viewing it. - but deeper than that -

There's something special about what the person does that triggers this thing in the audience.

I've heard thousands of rappers, but there is something particular about Bun B, or Jay Z, or Lil Wayne.

What that something is, that stroke of genius, - that's the essence of cool.

Sometimes it's obvious, like the Ipod or a Lamborghini.

But more often than not, coolness is sublime.

It's a series of 100 minute observations, that all lead to some sort of decision about coolness.

And part of the coolness, is the inability to parse out each and everyone one of those decisions.

To some extent, If you can explain it, if you can show it works - then it loses its cool.

Unless it's some next shit, and explaining it only makes it that much cooler.

one
k. orr

the symbiosis can be flipped into schizophrenic territory if someone has the self-confidence to transcend 'uncool' into 'cool'.

in the original vibe Q w/ george clinton, he mentioned that polka dots and flares were contemporaneously cool to *someone*, and _that_ was all that mattered. that gave it it's endorsement, and accordingly that endorsement could come from whomeva (even, or ideally from clinton's perspective, oneself).


|Fliteweight|

Not a surprise. I remember first seeing him on some mtv or mtv2 segment and I thought at the time, this guy is intentionally trying to be cool. They were interviewing him in an obvious set chock full of the latest decor from Urban Outfitter's retro 70s collection. People who conform aren't the only ones who are trying to be cool. Everyone knew people in high school who were intentionally trying not to be cool in order to be cool. You can't just present George Clinton's view of it because he came with something fresh(not hip-hop fresh, iceberg lettuce fresh) and he made good music. In the end, shouldn't good music be the ultimate arbiter of this debate. Fuck MTV

anyway, i get your point.

and i think i'm starting to get what buckshot defunct was trying to say about "cool vs. perceived cool"

i mean, is Cody trying to be "cool"? sure... in a way. yeah, he's got a swagger, and he wants to look good on stage. maybe he wants to impress some groupies because he wants to have sex. maybe he really is that cocky about his music and feeling good.

but is he attempting to conform to the standards of coolness held by the mainstream OR the "alternative" crowd?

i don't really think so.

>but is he attempting to conform to the standards of coolness
>held by the mainstream OR the "alternative" crowd?
>
>i don't really think so.

What are the standards of cool for the alternative crowd?

>What are the standards of cool for the alternative crowd?

i dunno... "positivity," a vague kind of spirituality, sensitivity in males, dreadlocks and afros, community-mindedness, rejection of materialism...

> "positivity," a vague kind of spirituality, sensitivity in >males, dreadlocks and afros, community-mindedness, rejection of >materialism...

but imho not in a contrived attempt to create an image, and/or attitude.

But I am white. Does that make me n/a?

the term nerd rap pretty much means anything that isnt mainstream and requires even the slightest inkling of thought

mf doom, j-live, and mc paul barman have all rhymed about sleeping with women

people need to recognize good music and separate that from the artists personality. i don't care how cool it is to like sa-ra and the platinum pied pipers, what does the music sound like?

does really nothing in terms of the hegemony.

You just choose not to deal with it.

Doesn't mean that it goes away.

A lot of cats use this bury your head in the sand, "as long as the music sounds good" approach - and nothing ever really gets discussed and therefore nothing solved.

the world at large is addicted to the drug known as "cool"

everything from vh1 and mtv, anyone you can name is centered around their definition of cool, including me.

it just so happens that i dont choose to enjoy music because im supposed to, because it's "cool" to be into these artists (vikter duplaix, cody chesnutt and the mars volta for example have done nothing for me)

much the same way, the neptunes, jay-z and eminem are millionaires who make music i enjoy, im not going to say they suck because of their popularity

You make it clear time and time again. A lot of folks feel that way.

I only replied to your post, cause it's an example of this side of the issue.

one
k. orr

>the term nerd rap pretty much means anything that isnt
>mainstream and requires even the slightest inkling of
>thought

you got cats calling out other cats as "nerd rap" in one post then telling you to check out the new MF DOOM album in another post.

>people need to recognize good music and separate that from
>the artists personality. i don't care how cool it is to
>like sa-ra and the platinum pied pipers, what does the music
>sound like?

they cant cause HIP HOP has convinced us that it's "real". Folks think MF DOOM fuck with that mask on and that KILLA CAM stands on 140th slanging rocks.



He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

cool
O.E. col, from P.Gmc. *koluz, from PIE base *gel- "cold, to freeze." The v. form kele (from O.E. colian) was used by Shakespeare, but has been assimilated with the adj. into the modern word. Applied since 1728 to large sums of money to give emphasis to amount. Meaning "calmly audacious" is from 1825. Slang use for "fashionable" is 1933, originally Black English, said to have been popularized in jazz circles by tenor saxophonist Lester Young. Coolant in the radiator sense is from 1930. Coolth, on model of warmth, is occasionally attested since 1547, and was used by Pound, Tolkien, Kipling, etc.
---------------------

Interesting to note that a similar meaning preceeded the current one.
Also interesting to note current meaning came from jazz, a scene in which from the earliest periods emphasis was placed on being "calmly audacious" both musically and sartorially... artists had to dress and act urbane, even if they were from the hinterlands.

i iant know that shit came from radiator coolant!

was incredibly unhappy because the people on the block didn't love her and she basically disabled her talent searching for their attention and it didn't work, really..... she really wanted what amiri baraka got, but the fact remains that
he was a mediocrity

- from another conversation about cool.

one
k. orr

but really i was looking for the Don Lee poem about Cool that ends "being a negro today is to be very HOT"

>was incredibly unhappy because the people on the block
>didn't love her and she basically disabled her talent
>searching for their attention and it didn't work,
>really..... she really wanted what amiri baraka got, but
>the fact remains that
>he was a mediocrity




He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

it is what it is....it's like trying to define god...or the universe...or love...or babies....or funk...or hate.....or stillettos.....or faith....or belief.....or...this post

cool is any person or thing that receives the favor of a crowd, centering around taste or preference

& be cool as shit

I can't define it, but I know it when I see it

> it is what it is....it's like trying to define god...or
>the universe...or love...or babies....or funk...or
>hate.....or stillettos.....or faith....or
>belief.....or...this post

Amen!

1.a. how much of what you're talking about revolves around image?
How much of that image is
-fashion
-looks
-"attitude" (for lack of a better term)


b. How much around music?


Urban black music - and even later rural blues - has always been well-dressed, stylish, full of attitude. Look at pictures of Duke from the '20s - he got his nickame from his fashion sense. Look at pictures of Robert Johnson... Muddy's band from the '50s... Ike Turner... Coltrane at teh Vanguard. Duke, still fine in the 60s.
Come to think of it, soul was never a fully urban style until the mid-70s, and look at the classic soul guys... they certainly dressed sharp.

Those musics have also always been about cool - swing was cooler than jungle music... bop > swing... cool > bop... free jazz/harmelodic shit > cool... fusion > alladat.
Blues guitar > banjo n fiddle. Blues combos > solo. electric > combo. (that's about where the music deadended, too... hasn't developed much further than it did by about 1968, and, well...)




2. If some anti-coolists eventually triumph and their anti-cool becomes the new cool - what is the process by which this occurs?

Thinking particularly of P-Funk, especially since they play so large a role in your discussion. they buck the trend you seem to talk about, but does what they did continue to be cool?

>1.a. how much of what you're talking about revolves around
>image?
>How much of that image is
>-fashion
>-looks
>-"attitude" (for lack of a better term)

generally, i would say that Cool is mostly about “attitude,” though fashion and looks are a part of it.

>b. How much around music?

i think a good deal of it. there are certain modes of music that do not fit into the general Cool code

>Urban black music - and even later rural blues - has always
>been well-dressed, stylish, full of attitude.

blacks have always wanted to see their entertainers looking good, yeah.

>Come to think of it, soul was never a fully urban style
>until the mid-70s, and look at the classic soul guys... they
>certainly dressed sharp.

i think Soul was ALWAYS urban, even if it proudly wore its rural roots on its sleeve

but you know, i think you might be concentrating too much on the whole idea of “cool = dressing well”

>2. If some anti-coolists eventually triumph and their
>anti-cool becomes the new cool - what is the process by
>which this occurs?

i’m not sure i understand the question.

>Thinking particularly of P-Funk, especially since they play
>so large a role in your discussion. they buck the trend you
>seem to talk about, but does what they did continue to be
>cool?

you know, i think i might have even simplified things a bit because i put a lot of emphasis on early 70s Funkadelic, a period in which they were barely even “black” (Coolidge hates when i say this and has chosen to ignore it, but George DID say that they made a conscious attempt around 1974 to make their sound and image “blacker”…. and more acceptable to black audiences. this involved mostly slicker, more polished production, more controlled soloing on all instruments but especially guitar, and drums that hewed closer to what would end up becoming disco)

and I didn't say anything about Cody! This post isn't about him. (ha)

Anyway, the only reasons I'm even inquiring about fashion are:
a) because an overwhelming number of responses to the previous post involved various artists with out there fashion senses, and emphasized their dress as being an element of their coolness (Cody, Prince, Rick, P-Funk);
b) Your own emphasis on P-funk's non-coolness seemed to me at least to stress their attire (how many references have you made to the diaper guy over the years on here?)

My second question was more about the process by which the anti-cool becomes the cool. I've never really understood that... and your previous post sort of makes the assumption that P-Funk wsan't cool, and then... was. How? Why? Was it just the shift to a blacker sound/image/target audience? Their image was still definitely completely wacky.

Then dudes follow suit. Always been that way and always will.

>Then dudes follow suit. Always been that way and always
>will.

Cause I dont recall the ladies suggesting niggas rock throwbacks and icey whites.

In terms of HIP HOP and what's cool it's men who decide what's hot.


He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

ladies decide from there if they're into it, etc.

i think thats what he was saying

>ladies decide from there if they're into it, etc.
>
>i think thats what he was saying

exactly

*SONG TITLE*

that whole "you gotta do some joints for the ladies" steez is a myth radio folks conned us on to soften HIP HOP rougher edges.

In other words N.W.A didnt clear the dance floor.



He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

A dude isn't going to rock anything that is going to keep him from gettin pussy. That's really what this whole thing is about. Image and sex. The music is a seperate issue. Don't fool yourself, women always have a say in shit. Pussy rules the world son.

for real

sorry to break it to you. Dont matter cause you will shake you ass to it anyway right

"i beat my bitch with a stick" - your boy KILLA




He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

and this attitude right here "R&B was hella gay. " is why black music is fucked up now. Cats worried about being hard when they don't even know what really being "hard" means. We should have raised you chilren better.

not hip hop

Not me ma ;) I think it's a trend with these young bucks. We always loved our sistas back in my day. You would catch hell if you were caught chasin snow flakes.

but these young boys think it's "cute" to diss their women...they'll grow out of it like all youngsters do....and homey is talking about rap music, not hip hop the culture

And females have to take some of the blame for this. They bought into this "ruf-neck" shit. Cats need to stop trying to be hard and be fuckin men. A man knows what he can do if he has to. He doesn't need to play a role.

and even in the "soft" period, it was cool to be hard with Shaft...going back to Stagga Lee.

That's like some essence of man type shit.
That goes beyond music.

Tony Soprano is cool because he's hard.

one
k. orr

>and even in the "soft" period, it was cool to be hard with
>Shaft...going back to Stagga Lee.
>
>That's like some essence of man type shit.
>That goes beyond music.
>

Naw. Being "hard" now is different now than is was back then. A brother might be hard but he could still show love for a female. Cats now look at that shit as being "soft" That's summed up by dudes saying shit like "R&B is gay" Why because they are singing about feelings for a female? See that's just some bullshit IMO.

>Naw. Being "hard" now is different now than is was back
>then. A brother might be hard but he could still show love
>for a female. Cats now look at that shit as being "soft"
>That's summed up by dudes saying shit like "R&B is gay" Why
>because they are singing about feelings for a female? See
>that's just some bullshit IMO.


To a 12 year black kid in 1984 dressing like PRINCE looked gay. With that said we had love for soul music but more the stuff we heard from our parents. I want until around 16 and we started getting in some pussy to we peep PRINCE as talented.

Trust me homey if a girl came to my house by the time I was in high school she got "adore" then "beautiful ones" then the dick.

Hell I lean how to rub titties from PURPLE RAIN



He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

> but these young boys think it's "cute" to diss their
>women...they'll grow out of it like all youngsters do....and
>homey is talking about rap music, not hip hop the culture


and told me if my bitch gets out of line slap her. In 2004 HIP HOP culture is rap music.



He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

u thinkin bout Dre

____________________

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All fuckin week, .44, tuck the heat
So duck & creep, yeah creep duck!
I leave you ducks & creeps, duck-taped, up a creek" -- JR Writer




http://profiles.myspace.com/users/2377167

>not hip hop

but your splitting hairs and avoiding the issue.



He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

I remember when cats used to laugh at Prince (Dirty Mind era) and say he looked like a fag. After 1999 and Purple Rain you had cats dressin all fem and shit at clubs. That's because the females now found dude sexy and his look came along with it. This shit ain't nothing new nor is it limited to black music or just hip hop.

>I remember when cats used to laugh at Prince (Dirty Mind
>era) and say he looked like a fag. After 1999 and Purple
>Rain you had cats dressin all fem and shit at clubs. That's
>because the females now found dude sexy and his look came
>along with it. This shit ain't nothing new nor is it limited
>to black music or just hip hop.


Shit it took PURPLE RAIN to convince niggas PRINE wasnt gay and even after that nobody was rocking puffy shirts round the way, lol.


He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

But back then we had cats walkin around the clubs with toss salad hair and shit. Hell, look at all the black groups around that same time. hella people were bitin that look. That's the way any trend it. One starts and others follow. "Cool" always changes.

>But back then we had cats walkin around the clubs with toss
>salad hair and shit. Hell, look at all the black groups
>around that same time. hella people were bitin that look.
>That's the way any trend it. One starts and others follow.
>"Cool" always changes.

R&B was hella gay. BALTIMORE is/was grimey and you could catch a bad one if you stepped outta line with that HUMAN NATURE MJ look(yellow sweater with yellow bowtie)



He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

you just said it right there. "young bucks". u wasn't from that era then. i'm talkin about folks up in the clubs around that time. u was too young to know.

>you just said it right there. "young bucks". u wasn't from
>that era then. i'm talkin about folks up in the clubs around
>that time. u was too young to know.

but I dont even recall the old heads getting down like that. Maybe it's regional? Cause I am sure cats in flashier cities like DETROIT maybe got they "PRINCE" on.


He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

good point. I was in the Bay Area and you know how they do it out here lol

You need to stop drinking that kool-aid for real.

>You need to stop drinking that kool-aid for real.

debating PETE ROCK vs PRIMO on the corner, lol??



He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

this idea that bitches have ever defined shit.

Maybe on some queen latifah shit, but honestly, her only hip hop claim to fame is 1) ladies first, and 2) who you calling a bitch - ie shit that's about her relation to men.

But mad mf'ers is drinking this kool-aid.

>this idea that bitches have ever defined shit.

these niggas is convinced that unless you simpin on wax you cant push units(that why NY is soft)meanwhile the south is got the ladies on the dancefloor with "NUCK IF YOU BUCK" and "DAMN"

songs for the bitches is like a marketing plan now.



He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

>>this idea that bitches have ever defined shit.
>
>these niggas is convinced that unless you simpin on wax you
>cant push units(that why NY is soft)meanwhile the south is
>got the ladies on the dancefloor with "NUCK IF YOU BUCK" and
>"DAMN"
>
u dudes are so far off point it's crazy. I'm talking about style and what is "cool" and y'all are ranting about "simpin on wax" lol Man whatever.

who is popular, that doesn't have a significant female fanbase?


or does that not prove the point?



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Certified Grade A Coon - Inspector Abrock33


"You know why I don't have time for you?

Because I only have one lifetime to change the world, and there's not enough time in the world for me to change your life. "

a.k.a. reggie jack

>who is popular, that doesn't have a significant female
>fanbase?
>
>
>or does that not prove the point?

Who is popular that doesn't have a significant WHITE fanbase?

Whenever you talk about "who defines a genre", you gotta think about it from the hip hop perspective.

There are no slow burners in hip hop music.
You either go big your first week, or you go home.

So the question is going to become, who are the tastemakers and who are the early adopters, that send signals to the record companies to keep pushing the record.

Is it white kids?
Is it black females?

Or is it really that same ol core audience, the block, the streets - young black and latino males that live in the city that are generally closest to the artists themselves?

AT the end of the day, women and white kids buy lots of records.

The questions are, 1) when do they buy it, (later rather than sooner), and 2) and why do they buy it? (because young black men define cool)

Ultimately, this question is decided on what part of the economic process you want to focus on.

Do we start at the beginning, or do we focus on who went platinum and why?

one
k. orr

got no love for you until us niggas done bigged you up on the mixtapes, etc. The TRL and 106 & PARK aint checking for a SAIGON until he ready to go thru his transformation.

I never see chicks coping mixtapes looking for that new-new.



>The questions are, 1) when do they buy it, (later rather
>than sooner), and 2) and why do they buy it? (because young
>black men define cool)
>
>Ultimately, this question is decided on what part of the
>economic process you want to focus on.
>
>Do we start at the beginning, or do we focus on who went
>platinum and why?
>
>one
>k. orr




He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

edit - note, I don't think simpin on wax is indicative of needing a female audience, I think it cuts across any genre/artist. underground cats need pussy too. internet mc's may be somewhat exmpt, I don't know tho.



>>who is popular, that doesn't have a significant female
>>fanbase?
>>
>>
>>or does that not prove the point?
>
>Who is popular that doesn't have a significant WHITE
>fanbase?

true, but thats also a numbers thing

>
>Whenever you talk about "who defines a genre", you gotta
>think about it from the hip hop perspective.
I think defines a genere is a horrible point, "legitimize" may be the word.


>
>There are no slow burners in hip hop music.
>You either go big your first week, or you go home.
>
>So the question is going to become, who are the tastemakers
>and who are the early adopters, that send signals to the
>record companies to keep pushing the record.

but first you gotta get signed. now in terms of , "who's cool when their video hits mtv", is one thing, but who gets to that point in the thing.

>
>Is it white kids?
>Is it black females?
>
>Or is it really that same ol core audience, the block, the
>streets - young black and latino males that live in the city
>that are generally closest to the artists themselves?
>
>AT the end of the day, women and white kids buy lots of
>records.
>
>The questions are, 1) when do they buy it, (later rather
>than sooner), and 2) and why do they buy it? (because young
>black men define cool)
>


the wall.

the thing between the artists who sell 200-500k. and the guys who go plat. double plat. etc.

even between the cats rapping in their basement and that guy whos signed but will never drop an album

Is there anybody who breaks the wall from one level to the next without adding significant female numbers to their fanbase first?

cuz you gotta get cats to go to your show right? or play your songs loud so people can hear em.


whenever new artists come out, or a new subgenre gets hot, you gotta put asses on the dancefloor. female asses.

you might not be allowed slow burn in terms of sales, but when cats go from underground to mainstream, it definitely happens.


luda
nelly
flip



from a 100k out the trunk to plat in the stores, or some version of that.


hell, even phonte and nicolay are rappin for the bitches, lol.





>Ultimately, this question is decided on what part of the
>economic process you want to focus on.
>
>Do we start at the beginning, or do we focus on who went
>platinum and why?

how many cats you know keep that dream going if they can't get at least one woman to think they can do it?

some, but few.


>
>one
>k. orr

FREE CHAI VANG!


Certified Grade A Coon - Inspector Abrock33


"You know why I don't have time for you?

Because I only have one lifetime to change the world, and there's not enough time in the world for me to change your life. "

a.k.a. reggie jack

>but first you gotta get signed. now in terms of , "who's
>cool when their video hits mtv", is one thing, but who gets
>to that point in the thing.

Who does the signing?
Off of what basis?

And why are we thinking about Majors?

You think Lil Flip got his deal cause he had a bunch of "Sunshine"s on his underground shit?

bWhahahaha.

He was selling 30,000 tapes on some gangsta shit.
Making nuff chedda - and with that - majors got interested.

Keisha n'nem might dance to the club to "I can do that" or "this is the way we ball", but they weren't buying them tapes @ King's. Neither were Chet and Duncan.

>Is there anybody who breaks the wall from one level to the
>next without adding significant female numbers to their
>fanbase first?

I don't think we disagree.
The argument is that women define cool though.

And we're trying to work out the mechanics.

The hip hop business is a really a multiple choice test, where consumers just choose a letter between A-E.

The underground of hip hop, is an essay test.
But chicks ain't reading those essays.

Men read those essays, listen to those tapes, and choose who's dope. Majors then reduce a complex subject into a multiple choice test - and it's represented to the rest of the class.

But what is cool?
That's not decided @ the MC level, but at the essay level.

>whenever new artists come out, or a new subgenre gets hot,
>you gotta put asses on the dancefloor. female asses.

But the generic female don't really care, as long as the beat is hot.

Damn is a song for the niggas.
That new shit by terror squad is a song for the bitches.

Both get female asses on the floor.

That's been loop's point for a long ass time.

They will dance to anything.

It's just like white folks can't generate their own hip hop stars w/o having black backing and authenticity.

Look @ insane clown posse or the beastie boys. - Cult audiences.

>you might not be allowed slow burn in terms of sales, but
>when cats go from underground to mainstream, it definitely
>happens.
>
>
>luda
>nelly
>flip
>
>from a 100k out the trunk to plat in the stores, or some
>version of that.

I don't disagree entirely, but the agenda was set.

>hell, even phonte and nicolay are rappin for the bitches,
>lol.

That's a whole other topic, But I'm not gonna get into it, cause I'm gonna look like a hater.

>how many cats you know keep that dream going if they can't
>get at least one woman to think they can do it?

>some, but few.

You talking about their girlfriend?
or their first groupie?

>

>Who does the signing?
>Off of what basis?
>
>And why are we thinking about Majors?
>
>You think Lil Flip got his deal cause he had a bunch of
>"Sunshine"s on his underground shit?
>
>bWhahahaha.
>
>He was selling 30,000 tapes on some gangsta shit.
>Making nuff chedda - and with that - majors got interested.
>
>Keisha n'nem might dance to the club to "I can do that" or
>"this is the way we ball", but they weren't buying them
>tapes @ King's. Neither were Chet and Duncan.
>


fair enough, but I don't think "sunshines" (blatant songs for hoes) are the topic at hand tho. the thing that separates a flip sellin 30k from that nigga on down the street sellin 20, flip got a dj somewhere, (I'm assuming, I don't know the houston underground scene) to play it. at parties, or on the radio, repeatedly. you don't have to make a sunshine to move to the next level, (I think that speaks more to cats drinking their own koolaid a lil too much, but, neither here nor there), but if kiesha n nem couldn't move to it, flip would still be sellin 25k to hardlegs, and 30k total.





>>Is there anybody who breaks the wall from one level to the
>>next without adding significant female numbers to their
>>fanbase first?
>
>I don't think we disagree.
>The argument is that women define cool though.

true. and they don't, but, if you want to turn one fan into three, does it matter more what jamal thinks of your single or kiesha?

using sales/exposure as the bar, at every level, I think you'll find female fanbase as the difference. MOP is never going to sell more albums than they did with their last, unless they change up their image somehow. Slum Village made a move from one level to the next cuz they got more women interested, but they're gonna be hard pressed to stay there, and they sure as hell ain't moving on.


foreign exchange is never going to get past vh1 soul, various lesson mc's will never get there.

>
>And we're trying to work out the mechanics.
>
>The hip hop business is a really a multiple choice test,
>where consumers just choose a letter between A-E.
>
>The underground of hip hop, is an essay test.
>But chicks ain't reading those essays.
>
>Men read those essays, listen to those tapes, and choose
>who's dope. Majors then reduce a complex subject into a
>multiple choice test - and it's represented to the rest of
>the class.
>
>But what is cool?
>That's not decided @ the MC level, but at the essay level.
>
>>whenever new artists come out, or a new subgenre gets hot,
>>you gotta put asses on the dancefloor. female asses.
>
>But the generic female don't really care, as long as the
>beat is hot.
>
>Damn is a song for the niggas.
>That new shit by terror squad is a song for the bitches.
>
>Both get female asses on the floor.
>
>That's been loop's point for a long ass time.
>
>They will dance to anything.
>
>It's just like white folks can't generate their own hip hop
>stars w/o having black backing and authenticity.
>
>Look @ insane clown posse or the beastie boys. - Cult
>audiences.
>
>>you might not be allowed slow burn in terms of sales, but
>>when cats go from underground to mainstream, it definitely
>>happens.
>>
>>
>>luda
>>nelly
>>flip
>>
>>from a 100k out the trunk to plat in the stores, or some
>>version of that.
>
>I don't disagree entirely, but the agenda was set.
>
>>hell, even phonte and nicolay are rappin for the bitches,
>>lol.
>
>That's a whole other topic, But I'm not gonna get into it,
>cause I'm gonna look like a hater.
>
>>how many cats you know keep that dream going if they can't
>>get at least one woman to think they can do it?
>
>>some, but few.
>
>You talking about their girlfriend?
>or their first groupie?

aren't they often the same thing, or is that just my platinum status road to riches fantasy? but shit, it might be their mom or their friends girlfriend, it still applies.


I think white artists jump levels often without those factors, but black acts don't. I don't think the "problem" is black people, but it's a reality.


>
>>

FREE CHAI VANG!


Certified Grade A Coon - Inspector Abrock33


"You know why I don't have time for you?

Because I only have one lifetime to change the world, and there's not enough time in the world for me to change your life. "

a.k.a. reggie jack

>Is there anybody who breaks the wall from one level to the
>next without adding significant female numbers to their
>fanbase first?

I think that's the point korr and myself are saying. 50 CENT was gonna do big numbers on GP, he really didnt have to grease up and ask 21 QUESTIONS.

You got male MC's/DJ/A&R/LABEL EXEC/BET/MTV etc,etc. They are what takes you from 100k to star. Chicks are kinda like "ok they say this is hot now whatever"


>whenever new artists come out, or a new subgenre gets hot,
>you gotta put asses on the dancefloor. female asses.


but the chicks dont really know/care what put them on the dancefloor. when hip hop went pro black the party didnt stop. they adapt to what's hot.



He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

why did 50 cent come out before lloyd banks?



FREE CHAI VANG!


Certified Grade A Coon - Inspector Abrock33


"You know why I don't have time for you?

Because I only have one lifetime to change the world, and there's not enough time in the world for me to change your life. "

a.k.a. reggie jack

"WANGSTA" is what blew him up


He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

#1 - I recall reading here, I don't know if it was accurate or not, that lloyd banks was originally the hot one.

#2 - what you said is exactly my point. wangsta sliced ja rules fan base off, but why? there were and are plenty of rappers harded than ja rule, why 50?



FREE CHAI VANG!


Certified Grade A Coon - Inspector Abrock33


"You know why I don't have time for you?

Because I only have one lifetime to change the world, and there's not enough time in the world for me to change your life. "

a.k.a. reggie jack

But the underlying assumption is that Men that like hip hop like it for the lyrics alone.

Lemme put this on the table, more folks in general like young buck over Lloyd. I don't think it says anything about the folks who cut for Young Buck, but that Lloyd isn't really that marketable on all accounts, Irrespective of his bitch appeal.

FREE CHAI VANG!


Certified Grade A Coon - Inspector Abrock33


"You know why I don't have time for you?

Because I only have one lifetime to change the world, and there's not enough time in the world for me to change your life. "

a.k.a. reggie jack

the great Nahmsya once said that NY has painted themselves into a corner with that style of rapping (which was the prevalent way to think about rapping in NY)

>#1 - I recall reading here, I don't know if it was accurate
>or not, that lloyd banks was originally the hot one.



>#2 - what you said is exactly my point. wangsta sliced ja
>rules fan base off, but why? there were and are plenty of
>rappers harded than ja rule, why 50?


cause niggas on the block said he was that new shit. That why "99% of your fans wear high heels" is a diss. That why despite the simpin on radio singles they hard on bitches on the album cuts so niggas dont think they too soft.

I am sure you heard the "record company made me do some radio joints" excuses.



He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

why were there so many women in the video?

if 50 really wanted to get at Ja, why wasn't it just him and g unit standing in a basement a la the "warrior" snippet? it's a damn near presidential entourage featuring a bad ass chcik in the hummer, and the best ass in the world in g-unit sweats


and then it goes to the club scene





FREE CHAI VANG!


Certified Grade A Coon - Inspector Abrock33


"You know why I don't have time for you?

Because I only have one lifetime to change the world, and there's not enough time in the world for me to change your life. "

a.k.a. reggie jack

>who is popular, that doesn't have a significant female
>fanbase?


Without the simpin. Just keep the beats banging. Hell KANYE WEST proved that with the right beat you can make bitches drop it like it's hot to a song about JESUS.

I saw chicks grinding off that joints up in the club, lol.




He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

to the notion that once a idea escapes its core group of practitioners and grasps the public-at-large's attention (becoming a trend), others will adopt it with the intent of becoming more desirable by the opposite sex.

basically meaning chicks ain't really guide the discussion of who was the true people's rapper (biggie or pac), but once they decided they dug tat's and thuggish tendencies, more than a few cats switched up their game

-aka nukkas ain't always wearing chains cuz they truly like jewelry

you lost me on that...

there is nothing cooler than being funky...

nothing.

funk=cool
http://www.funktothemax.com/images/div/pod/21.jpg

I don't think folks are really dealing with what you put on the table Affy.

I want to apologize, cause I think this is a very valuable discussion. (more importantly, one that I can learn from)

one
k. orr

the problem is that "cool" is such an elusive term and most people are misunderstanding what is supposed to be the focus here...

are we talking about the adjective that describes anything agreeable? or fashionable? or are we talking about capital-C Cool, a behavioral code that few people have even thought much about.

yeah, this can get even more slippery than the old Soul posts. and you saw how long it took us to reach any kind of consensus over there.

that's not a knock on you, you and i just seem to be the anthisis of each other when it comes to music.

so, my understanding from this is that you think hip-hop's/ black folks "obessesion" w/ being cool prevents them from making funky, good music. that it's hindering the art form?

not imo. james wore suits and a conk. alotta 70's funk artists dressed like hustlers, the coolest shit they could find at the time. 80's artists dressed like hustlers. 90's artists dressed like hustlers.

cool is about being free.

cool is about being so cold, that all the shit the man put on you, "he can't put no thing on me."

cool is rakim's glare and tone. cool is kane's punchline and laugh afterwords. cool is the style of run dmc. and all that shit was progressive. it wasn't stagent.

the thing is, you have a different idea of cool. just like george had a different idea of cool. and your (and his) idea of cool is no more valid than run dmc's. y'all are the anti cool: y'all idea seems to be whiling out.

wild hair. wild outfits. wild on stage. no rules to the music.

and that's all good. but it's just another way of tryning to be cool by *not being* cool. on some "look at them in there suits, there's so restricted and we're free. aren't we great?"

but y'all are so focused on being the "anti cool", you ostricize any of the "cold" folks from possibly fucking w/ your ideas and music.

this is part of the reason why i personally can't fuck w/ sa-ra, other than the fact i'on't like the actual music.

and maybe it's just me and mine that are some anomalies (sp?), but i'm a 21 yr old that rocks doo-rags and tims and that you would prolly think would mug you. (i might have back in the day. haha.) my hero's are kane and ra and marley marl. but i roll w/ a catwho is in a hard core band and worships the bloodbrothers and their ilk.

i been to mars volta shows, and my dunns been to roc-a-fella shit.

so your whole notion that cats are scared of breaking their cool, i think that shit is proposterous. it's 2muthafucking005. if you can't roll w/ drug dealers and rock cats, it's prolly due to your own insecurity. (not you afkap personally, in general). not due to the need to keep it real.

we're talking about different ideas of Cool here.

the only person who seems to be on the same page as me is k_orr, and i suspect that that is only because he might have read the same literature as me regarding the "cult" of Cool vs. just plain "cool"

it's still rough, but i'll continue to work on this idea until i can chisel out some kind of consensus as we did with "what is Soul?"

>the only person who seems to be on the same page as me is
>k_orr, and i suspect that that is only because he might have
>read the same literature as me regarding the "cult" of Cool
>vs. just plain "cool"

- what literature is that?

I read something about the nature of cool in a magazine called Might. The mag was from 1996. Black dude talking about cool, and it's implications on whites.

This is a different sort of cool, than "marketing" cool, and "buzz".

there was a book that some black woman wrote about a decade ago about Cool... i didn't agree with much of her thesis (at the time anyway) but she did a fairly good job of defining it.

there were a couple of other essays i read around that time period, too... i'll see if i can figure out what they were and let you know.

Marlene Conner

i thought i stated pretty clearly what my opinion was...

but if that's not it, whatchu tryna say, fam?

it's just that it ain't exactly what i was talking about

it's cool, though. it ain't your fault, and your opinion is a valid one.

>it's cool, though.

>so, my understanding from this is that you think hip-hop's/
>black folks "obessesion" w/ being cool prevents them from
>making funky, good music. that it's hindering the art form?

I didn't get that from the post, although you can take it there.

>not imo. james wore suits and a conk. alotta 70's funk
>artists dressed like hustlers, the coolest shit they could
>find at the time. 80's artists dressed like hustlers. 90's
>artists dressed like hustlers.
>
>cool is about being free.

Cool is about being free, yet most of the coolest people you can mention - all dress the same, and have the same aesthetic?

You're free to wear the uniform?

How is that freedom?

>cool is about being so cold, that all the shit the man put
>on you, "he can't put no thing on me."

>the thing is, you have a different idea of cool. just like
>george had a different idea of cool. and your (and his) idea
>of cool is no more valid than run dmc's. y'all are the anti
>cool: y'all idea seems to be whiling out.

Afkap's point was that George not only rejected 1 type of cool, but cool in general. Even though much to his chagrin, what he did then became yet another niche of cool.

You've got the cool kids in highschool, and then you've got the anti-elites. - Both are defined in terms of cool. You are, or you're not.

I think Afkap wants to reject that way of thinking entirely.

Irrespective of what that does to the creation and quality of the music.

I didn't get the sense that Afkap was lamenting the state of black music because everyone was trying to fit into this notion of cool - and in order for black music to get better - we must reject that specific type of cool (in this case hip hop, to a lesser extent - the urban man, but not the urbane)

I think this cool thing is a bigger issue than that.

>so your whole notion that cats are scared of breaking their
>cool, i think that shit is proposterous. it's
>2muthafucking005. if you can't roll w/ drug dealers and rock
>cats, it's prolly due to your own insecurity. (not you afkap
>personally, in general). not due to the need to keep it
>real.

You and your friends are anomalies.

I'd be more convinced of your point, if you could tell me the whole hood showed up to see Coldplay. Cats surprised that 37th street was in the house.

It's careful to no get crossed up in race and marketing though, cause a lot of these things intertwine and exist in diff. dimensions.

one
k. orr

that's what i got off this post. it seemed to come off to me in a manner that was condicending to run dmc and hip hop (and "regular black folks") in general. but that's just how i took it.

it's free cause i *choose* to wear the uniform. i like the uniform. if i like the uniform, does that make me all that i am. do the clothes make the man? i'on't know.

i didn't feel he was saying that we need to abolish *all* cool. anti and regular. i felt he was coming from the anti cool stand point, hince his use of the george quote.

if he was saying that all of this *cool* shit is retarded, i agree really. and i appolgize for reading into it wrong. i just felt it had a certain tone toward "norms".

haha...we prolly are just some weird muthafuckas. but then again, how is it that e'rry single "urban" artist has coldplay coming out there mouths. brandy did a song deticated to them even.

one of the top 10 albums in the country is an album feat. jay-z and linkin park.

jay did a show w/ phish for god sake.

i think the worlds alot more like us than you are thinking.

but then
>again, how is it that e'rry single "urban" artist has
>coldplay coming out there mouths. brandy did a song
>deticated to them even.


>one of the top 10 albums in the country is an album feat.
>jay-z and linkin park.

they no different than the rock guy that wants a pass cause they like SNOOP. HIP HOP & R&B artists for the most part have horrible taste in white music. It's always some SPIN magazine shit.

I know a few niggas like that, they want a cookie cause they like RADIOHEAD. Clueless to the fact that the band is a huge seller and not some underground secret, lol.





He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

& hip hop heads back in the day rocked the police just like niggas nowadays rock coldplay

sike

>that's what i got off this post. it seemed to come off to me
>in a manner that was condicending to run dmc and hip hop
>(and "regular black folks") in general. but that's just how
>i took it.

Those are 2 separate points and bunch of diff issues.

I have a major problem with black people being mixed up with hip hop.

But this thread is more than just cool in 04, or even 84.

I think it touches on what Jay Z would call, "the nigga codes"

>it's free cause i *choose* to wear the uniform. i like the
>uniform. if i like the uniform, does that make me all that i
>am. do the clothes make the man? i'on't know.

No, but that's not the discussion.

If all the cool people wear the uniform, how is that freedom?

If every cool black performer can 1) fuck a bitch on site, 2) fuck up a nigga who looks at him wrong - how is that freedom?

Where is the cool black performer that doesn't fit into an already established idea of cool?

Especially when the ideology of cool tells us that cool people 1) wear the image, and 2) reject the image.

Dre3000 is rejecting the idea of hip hop cool, and going for a Fred Estaire/GQ type of cool. (if you read Alan Flusser - the same guy who bentley farnsworth studied under - you'd see how unoriginal Dre really is)

But because Dre is not rocking a throwback - that shit's cool.
When Jay Z says he's wearing a button up and not a jersey cause he's 30 plus, button ups become "cool".

Cool is inescapable, even when folks try to escape it.

That's more than on the material/marketing level.

Boss Tweed, "You can vote for whoever you want, just let me pick the candidates"

>i didn't feel he was saying that we need to abolish *all*
>cool. anti and regular. i felt he was coming from the anti
>cool stand point, hince his use of the george quote.

I can see how you would get that. I think the other post about Cody, especially the fact that the man was dirty/unkempt/unpleasant gets more at the idea of a rejection of the concept of cool than this one does. But w/o the context of Cody, the concept of cool is lost. With Cody, the concept of cool is immaterial as people make decisions on what they think about cody.

>if he was saying that all of this *cool* shit is retarded, i
>agree really. and i appolgize for reading into it wrong. i
>just felt it had a certain tone toward "norms".
>
>haha...we prolly are just some weird muthafuckas. but then
>again, how is it that e'rry single "urban" artist has
>coldplay coming out there mouths. brandy did a song
>deticated to them even.

It will be someone new.

I remember when Dre was name dropping the Hives.

>one of the top 10 albums in the country is an album feat.
>jay-z and linkin park.
>
>jay did a show w/ phish for god sake.
>
>i think the worlds alot more like us than you are thinking.

I think white people will buy 1) one of the biggest rock groups out, and 2) are en masse @ a Phish show.

It's black folks i'm concerned with.

If the typical black high school had a talent show, we both know the "ghetto rockers" (if they even existed) would get looked at funny. We both know as soon as they step out on stage not wearing the uniform, some mf'er in the crowd is gonna say some shit outloud to the rest of the crowd and the crowd is gonna laugh. And even if the rock shit is onp oint for some rock shit, if it doesn't bang/groove or funk... You know what's gonna happen.

That's the reality we live in.

Tell me I'm wrong. Give me some hope.

one
k. orr

but it's two terms that unfortunatly get lumped together (by myself included.) we may have created it but it's unfair to make them one and the same. to it and to us.

>Where is the cool black performer that doesn't fit into an
>already established idea of cool?

one could say pharrell. one could say 'ye. those would be unpopular choices here tho. i'on't know. i agree w/ you. there should be more of those kinda cats.


>I can see how you would get that. I think the other post
>about Cody, especially the fact that the man was
>dirty/unkempt/unpleasant gets more at the idea of a
>rejection of the concept of cool than this one does. But
>w/o the context of Cody, the concept of cool is lost. With
>Cody, the concept of cool is immaterial as people make
>decisions on what they think about cody.

to be honest, i never really saw that other shit about cody. i really got no beef w/ him. or afkap for that matter.

me and afkap just seem to have polar opposites in pretty much e'rry thing to do w/ music, so maybe that had to do w/ me reading in to it negitivly.

>It will be someone new.
>
>I remember when Dre was name dropping the Hives.
>
>It's black folks i'm concerned with.
>
>If the typical black high school had a talent show, we both
>know the "ghetto rockers" (if they even existed) would get
>looked at funny. We both know as soon as they step out on
>stage not wearing the uniform, some mf'er in the crowd is
>gonna say some shit outloud to the rest of the crowd and the
>crowd is gonna laugh. And even if the rock shit is onp oint
>for some rock shit, if it doesn't bang/groove or funk...
>You know what's gonna happen.
>
>That's the reality we live in.
>
>Tell me I'm wrong. Give me some hope.
>
>one
>k. orr

you kinda right about that "new band" shit. i'on't know...i guess i'm just hoping that's a sign that tastes are broading.

unfortunatly, you prolly right. even w/ my self, most of the time, i can't get w/ alotta rock.

unless the drums are right. how sterotypical is that? lol.

i would hope that someday tho...you'd just be able to see like...the lead singer of pretty girls make graves and mobb deep just chilling. for nothing other than expanding the boundries that we got.

i'on't know, fam. you prolly right.

you my virgo girl twin.

I've been thinking more about this and how appropriate the term 'tyranny' is. I'm reminded of an Albert Camus quote that goes, “All revolutionaries become either tyrants or traitors." Likewise, culture that exists on the fringe of society either winds up collapsing upon itself or being co-opted by the mainstream. And then it becomes a whole different kind of cool. Until the next revolution comes along.

i'm w/Af on this...'cool' definitely implies a certain code of behavior that touches every aspect of a person's life. a person who is preoccupied w/being 'cool' knows there are certain things s/he can't do and other things s/he MUST do. often they don't put the label 'cool' on these behaviors though...they might call themselves trying to be 'Black', 'male', or 'hip-hop' but it's all the same. 'cool' is something that can has to be defended and maintained at high cost...if it were about being free then there wouldn't be anxiety involved. only un-'cool' ppl are free b/c they have no 'cool' to lose. the Parliament/Sir Nose example Af gave is key..."I am Sir Nose D'Void of Funk/I don't swim, I don't dance"..."I might get my hair wet"..."I'm cool"..."I don't even sweat". that's it right there.

these days 'cool' is called other stuff..."My niggas don't dance we just pull up our pants and uh do the Rock-Away". all the posing and posturing that happens in Black music today is about cool. it's decidely un-cool to let loose...you might get a stain on that striped button-down or a scuff on those white-white Air Max...or a string might pop on your throwback. Ciara made a song about dancing and ppl are like "She's The New Janet" b/c no one makes songs about dancing anymore cuz dancing isn't cool. and even the dancing Ciara is talking about is stiff and choreographed...R. Kelly has his stepping cuts and stepping is about as 'cool' a dance as anything. (wait, has dancing ever been cool? i mean dancing that can produce sweat? maybe during disco. was/is breakdancing cool? it wasn't cool to break in my circles UNLESS you were _really_ good. mediocre breakers got clowned so hard most of us just stood around and watched other ppl do it b/c we didn't want to look un-'cool', of course.) to me it's all the same thing George was talking about.

as is your breakdown in #77

i'm just too mentally tired today to carry on this discussion myself, but you guys are doing a great job of it so far.

That there says it all. Ain't nothing freeing about a rigid code of behavior.
But like I was getting at with the Camus quote earlier, even this tyranny was at one time rebellious and non conformist. In America we have a habit of saying one thing and doing another. It's more than a bit hypocritical that we *say* that it's cool to be your own person and do your own thing. But in truth your personal brand of rebellion better fit some kind of template or demographic. Fact is there are 2 different "cools", the one we practice and the one we preach.

>It's more than a bit hypocritical that we *say*
>that it's cool to be your own person and do your own thing.
>But in truth your personal brand of rebellion better fit
>some kind of template or demographic.

The clubs I go to, dudes dance with chicks - while listening to hip hop.

Some of the most spontaneous amazing type stuff i've seen on the dancefloor.

one
k. orr

or is that a fallacy? in the 90s, i used to hear people saying that no one was dancing in hip hop clubs. even during the second wave of drum & bass around 96/97, supposedly people werent dancing like they used to in 93/94. they were just posing.

maybe this depends on if its a upwardly mobile club full of people getting their pose on, or if its people just out to have a good time.

But it's misplaced.

If we're talking about the kinda dancing you see in the movies (not the choreographed stuff), but guy asks girls to dance, and they get on dance floor and mimic each other's moves

That's different.

Dudes don't really do that anymore.

But not because they're too "hard".

But it's cause they're too "hard"

That is, you dance with a girl at a typical hip hop joint, it might start out face to face, but even a casual type dance, the girl is gonna turn around and give you varying degrees of a lap dance.

Realistically, dancing has always had some *subtle* sexual flirtation. Now it's no longer subtle.

Last night, a girl I know, was like, "I'm not like my friend, I don't want that kind of attention when I dance".

White, Black, Asian, Latina - makes no difference.

At least here in the South.

Them folks up north....well let's say i've seen them dance. They need to spend more time @ the reggae spots.

one
k. orr

do i know that dancing isn't cool in hip-hop. at house music parties ppl of both genders and all orientations will dance alone...and some of them will dance really 'badly'. you'll see ppl dancing 'together' but it's not like in hip-hop...the dancing is more about the music than the ppl. it's about the release. ppl at these parties dance together w/their eyes closed, even. it's totally different.

it wasn't until i saw this kind of dancing that i knew how un-cool it was to dance.

It was the ushering out of the beats that were over 100BPM into the era of head-nodders.

Specifically, I remember MC Eiht with "I don't dance, cuz it just ain't my style. Portray the prep and act so buck-wild....".

I was real puzzled by that song, it was called "I Don't Dance" yet sampled Atomic Dog! oh the irony...

Artist: Compton's Most Wanted
Album: Straight Check'N Em
Song: I Don't Dance

I don't dance because that just ain't my style
Portray the prep and act so buck wild
And when the Eiht bails to these local clubs
my first inspiration is to just get buzzed.
Dress code enforced, just like I said I aint frightened.
The homie dressed up is a brand new shirt and dickies.
So I spot a female up to par, jump out my car
and head straight for the bar.
As I proceed I got a shove in the back
Turned around and said "black, you hopping like you on crack"
But he was hopping, and spinning so fast
brother put me in a trance.
mm-mm, I don't dance.

Scratching: (...and I will never dance...) X2

The place is packed, just like ring around the collar.
Bail up to the door and don't have to pay a dollar.
"Compton's in the house" as everybody screams
as I dust off the sweatshirt and Levi's Jeans.
Can't peep out the scene it's a damn disgrace
Everytime I try a brother slides in my face
And I ain't with breaking my back
Trying to impress a girl who ain't giving up jack.
And I never see you leave with a girl
All that sweating dried out your curl
Too much ants in your pants
I ain't hype, thats why I don't dance.

Scratching: (I can make you dance...)(I Don't think so)
(I can make you dance...)(On the dance floor baby...)
(I dont think so...)(I leave that to the brothers with the funny haircuts)

Now its 3 o'clock AM boy and I was gone.
Grooving to the round the way girls song, it was on.
Downed the last of the Cognac
Eiht was ready to attack.
Grabbed the girl I was peeping
She was 5000, I said "baby, ain't no sleeping."
Get my gangsta slide to the middle
That pumped her up I seen her earrings jiggle
Right then the crowd got crazy
But the DJ got kinda lazy
Threw on the "Ice Ice Baby"
It just didn't fade me,
That's why I dont dance.

That ice ice baby reference had a lot to do with it too. As soon as that video came out, heads was like "dancing= vanilla ice" and it was over. Remember he was on there doing the running man and shit, but like seriously! Same with MC Hammer.

But talking about cool, in my culture if you don't dance you're suspect. Your masculinity is in danger if you go to a party and don't ask chicas to dance. Latinas are raised to believe that if a man dances well then he must be good in bed. So to be cool= to be free to dance.

But in this post we start from the premise that cool= rigid, uniform, automatic. I can see that, esp. in the original post about the walk this way video. I remember laughing at run-dmc doing those wack steps with steven tyler like "come on, they all stiff and shit" It reminds me of the robbery scene in Pulp Fiction when Jules is yellin at Pumpkin "tell that bitch to be cool!" meaning calm, quiet, chill. Same meaning in the CMW song: to dance is not cool, u look like u on crack.



"This town is like a great big pussy waiting to get fucked" -Tony Montana on Miami

i bet they don't.

the only way dancing is acceptable for a man in that environment is if the man is dancing w/a woman. why? b/c dancing isn't cool unless it's a prelude to sex or is suggestive of sex. dancing as a form of personal expression isn't encouraged or tolerated in hip-hop.

>the only way dancing is acceptable for a man in that
>environment is if the man is dancing w/a woman. why? b/c
>dancing isn't cool unless it's a prelude to sex or is
>suggestive of sex. dancing as a form of personal expression
>isn't encouraged or tolerated in hip-hop.

hold on though - do men dance alone freely in say, house clubs? i was gonna say R&B clubs, but then that's pretty much the same as a hip hop club these days. i wonder whats it like in reggae clubs.

then again, watching the 'ray' film recently, seeing all those club-goers in the 50s dancing with the opposite sex leads me to think that theres always been a bit of that 'dont dance unless its with a girl' attitude.

the other thing i really was talking about in hip hop though was the attitude of not dancing, and just leaning by a wall or standing in a circle, nodding your head, while a few rare people dance in front of you. maybe hip hop attracts/used to attract more people who werent cool, i.e who couldnt really dance. or is not being able to dance cooler now? i dont know - this post has me confused.

i saw an interview with chuck d once who said the reason for the S1Ws was cos none of the group could dance. he laughed it off after he said it, but i bet he wasnt joking, lol.

>hold on though - do men dance alone freely in say, house
>clubs?

yes.

i was gonna say R&B clubs, but then that's pretty
>much the same as a hip hop club these days. i wonder whats
>it like in reggae clubs.

i haven't been to enough to say fully.

>the other thing i really was talking about in hip hop though
>was the attitude of not dancing, and just leaning by a wall
>or standing in a circle, nodding your head, while a few rare
>people dance in front of you.

that's what breakdancing is/was about in my experience.

maybe hip hop attracts/used to
>attract more people who werent cool, i.e who couldnt really
>dance. or is not being able to dance cooler now? i dont know
>- this post has me confused.

it's important to be able to dance in case you have to dance w/the opposite sex. but it's not cool to dance alone.

I used to think that before I hit the clubs more often.

I'm not even gonna speak on the b-boys in my area.

But there was this set of cats from the local HBCU that used to go to Kaos (a local hood club that is now Tejano/Norteno/Nueva Rock joint lol)....
- they were black
- they weren't gay
- they weren't in a frat

It was like 4 or 5 cats that would all dance together.

Maybe in formation is a better way to describe it.

But the ring leader would bust a move, and the next man would follow and then try to show him up. Subtle battling type shit.

I see that sort thing all the time.

The more regular thing I see is after all the radio shit is played, a real G song would come on, and cats would throw they sets up and get krunk. And not just on some black mosh type shit/not on some new orleans shit either, on some I know 5 or 6 dances that you do to this song in particular.

That might be the South, but it's pretty normal.

So when cats say dancing is dead, I dont' see it at my local spots.

gay ppl aren't cool in terms of this discussion.

>I used to think that before I hit the clubs more often.
>
>I'm not even gonna speak on the b-boys in my area.

b-boys are a minority and always have been...unless you yourself are a b-boy. most ppl stand around and watch b-boys.

>But there was this set of cats from the local HBCU that used
>to go to Kaos (a local hood club that is now
>Tejano/Norteno/Nueva Rock joint lol)....
>- they were black
>- they weren't gay
>- they weren't in a frat
>
>It was like 4 or 5 cats that would all dance together.
>
>Maybe in formation is a better way to describe it.
>
>But the ring leader would bust a move, and the next man
>would follow and then try to show him up. Subtle battling
>type shit.
>
>I see that sort thing all the time.

that's not dancing alone and i'm not sure it's personal expression. that's dance as battle which is a key element of hip-hop cool.

it's NOT cool for a guy to run on the floor and dance alone b/c "Drop It Like It's Hot" is 'his song'. can you imagine standing at the bar and putting your drink down and running to the floor alone b/c that song came on?

>The more regular thing I see is after all the radio shit is
>played, a real G song would come on, and cats would throw
>they sets up and get krunk. And not just on some black mosh
>type shit/not on some new orleans shit either, on some I
>know 5 or 6 dances that you do to this song in particular.

isn't that posturing though? is that really dancing? dancing in public in and of itself isn't cool and if it were men could do it alone.

>That might be the South, but it's pretty normal.
>
>So when cats say dancing is dead, I dont' see it at my local
>spots.

oh, i agree. ppl dance to hip-hop here...but it's not about the dancing itself it's about something else.

>that's not dancing alone and i'm not sure it's personal
>expression. that's dance as battle which is a key element
>of hip-hop cool.

let's put it like this
- they aren't b-boys

1 guy is on the floor, ostensibly by himself, but in view of others.

He's feeling the music so much, he leaves the wall.
As long as it's an acceptable get hype song, he doesn't get clowned.

But it's not the same sort of thing you see a girl do - where they hear their song and run out to the dance floor.
Even with that, they bring their girls as well.

The "solo" dancing thing, is very much some white boy steez, kinda thing you'd see @ a rave more so than a black club.

So this idea that people 1) don't dance, 2) don't dance by themselves, 3) dont' dance with the opposite sex - makes no sense to me - the theory doesn't match every night observation. And I stay on the floor watching this.

>it's NOT cool for a guy to run on the floor and dance alone
>b/c "Drop It Like It's Hot" is 'his song'. can you imagine
>standing at the bar and putting your drink down and running
>to the floor alone b/c that song came on?

But i've seen it happen.

It's just not dramatic like a female.

The typical one is when the dj plays an old school cut - cats react and do their Michael Jackson impersonations - or whatever is appropriate.

That's very different from an "Ooh girl, this is my song"

That's not the only way that people react to music and start to dance.

>>The more regular thing I see is after all the radio shit is
>>played, a real G song would come on, and cats would throw
>>they sets up and get krunk. And not just on some black mosh
>>type shit/not on some new orleans shit either, on some I
>>know 5 or 6 dances that you do to this song in particular.
>
>isn't that posturing though? is that really dancing?

You want to define that?

Cause 25 lighters will come on, and a bunch of cats will start doing the southside. Whoa by black rob will drop, and everyone does that GI Joe/running man thing that Black Rob does in the video.

Chicago doesn't get down like that?

Houston does. Austin does.

>dancing in public in and of itself isn't cool and if it were
>men could do it alone.

I'm not sure how you've figured this out.

>>That might be the South, but it's pretty normal.
>>
>>So when cats say dancing is dead, I dont' see it at my local
>>spots.
>
>oh, i agree. ppl dance to hip-hop here...but it's not about
>the dancing itself it's about something else.

the "hot, cool" spots are too packed to fucking dance in

>He's feeling the music so much, he leaves the wall.
>As long as it's an acceptable get hype song, he doesn't get
>clowned.

yeah, i feel that. if dancing in and of itself were cool...if it were cool to let loose to music in that public situation it wouldn't matter about the song. to me the fact that there are all these restrictions on when/where/how/why dancing is accepted means dancing isn't cool.

>But it's not the same sort of thing you see a girl do -
>where they hear their song and run out to the dance floor.
>Even with that, they bring their girls as well.

word.

>The "solo" dancing thing, is very much some white boy steez,
>kinda thing you'd see @ a rave more so than a black club.

right...b/c dancing isn't cool.

>>>The more regular thing I see is after all the radio shit is
>>>played, a real G song would come on, and cats would throw
>>>they sets up and get krunk. And not just on some black mosh
>>>type shit/not on some new orleans shit either, on some I
>>>know 5 or 6 dances that you do to this song in particular.
>>
>>isn't that posturing though? is that really dancing?
>
>You want to define that?

sounds like ppl are re-enacting moves they copped from videos...that's not really dancing to me. that's posing and posturing.

>Cause 25 lighters will come on, and a bunch of cats will
>start doing the southside. Whoa by black rob will drop, and
>everyone does that GI Joe/running man thing that Black Rob
>does in the video.
>
>Chicago doesn't get down like that?

nope, not really. not from what i've seen.

>>dancing in public in and of itself isn't cool and if it were
>>men could do it alone.
>
>I'm not sure how you've figured this out.

it's the restrictions...the restrictions.

like you said, dancing alone is some white boy/rave/gay shit and i didn't know until i was in those environment. those ppl dance however they want (basically) to whatever they want w/or w/o whomever. it's totally different. and to me it means that to us dancing isn't cool. i guess i've overstated it by saying ppl don't dance alone in Black clubs but it's still just not cool. or maybe this is my hang-up...i dunno. but i know that i'll dance alone more in a white/rave/gay club than in a Black/str8 club b/c i've learned it's not acceptable.

Not hip hop. Hard core maybe but not hip hop. Dance is one of pillars of hip hop.

>(wait, has dancing ever been cool? i mean dancing that can produce sweat? maybe during disco.

Whatever his status now, Hammer had dancefloors burning with "Let's Get It Started". When I was in high school (88-92), cats were working up a sweat dancing at all the parties. Remember when MCs had dancers? Scoob & Scrap, Leg 1 & Leg 2. I'd say that started to fade around 1994.

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

we didn't do a whole night of the Running Man. we'd break it out in the middle of dancing w/some girl if the right song came on or the right part of the right song. it was definitely not cool to spend the whole party on the floor dancing like Hammer alone. we might even do the Kid N Play leg touch thing but even that was just for a song or a part of a song. there was also the Electric Slide...that was communal.

if dancing in and of itself were cool we could do it alone in public regularly.

>Cool is about conformity.

> it’s like high school, where you lived in terror of being >ridiculed for wearing the wrong clothes

>listening to the wrong music

>being seen associating with the wrong people.

this perspective is very passive. is Cool about conforming or is it about having the ability to 'inspire' others to conform?

>this perspective is very passive. is Cool about conforming
>or is it about having the ability to 'inspire' others to
>conform?

It probably is.

Cool only truly applies to people, not 'products'.

I think you're gonna say no.

your minions will co-sign

But your answer puts the concept of cool in sharp relief.

I think everyone here is thinking cool is a conscious and intentional act. (but not in the obvious,he's doing that shit on purpose kinda way)

But I don't think you see cool the same way.

I have a feeling your grandma is cool.

I don't think folks here would even contemplate that concept.

one
k. orr

even though i don't think that cool can be defined in any certain terms......i've been told that i am very cool.......do i think i'm "cool"?........i think i'm me, if it fits into k_orr's "definition" or afkap's "definition"...that's cool, but if my "coolness" doesn't fit into their definitions.....i'm cool with that.....i don't live & breathe thinking "hey how can i be cool?"...i do live & breathe thinking "hey what piques my interest? what makes me smile? relax? feel "freer"? doesn't stress me? makes me want to be around it?......these things just go into the makings of me (c) me via curtis (<----a cool mofo).......god help the day i wake up & say "how can i be cool? what is cool?".....i would be so fucking miserable & feel really pathetic......like that shit would make my stomach turn....does the fact that my stomach would turn because of that make me cognizant of cool because i am eschewing "coolness"....i don't know....i just know that i really dont care what other people think is cool...as long as i'm happy, which is prolly the coolest shit on erf

The GOAT band of the 90s

<<<<<<<


WEEZER BEEYATCHES

before i read all the responses, i just want to comment with first thoughts.

you're damn right about cool being all about fear. i was the "cool" kid in school. always in the back of the class with my head down and headphones on. never really showing myself to others. they thought i was "cool" but in actuality i was just fuckin scared. scared to let myself out and be put down.

but that's more on a personal tip than a musical one.

on a musical tip...look who's "cool"

miles

one of the most disturbed, self-conscious mother fuckers i've ever read about. when you read his autobiography, you can't help but notice that fact that he seems to be hiding his fear behind his bluntness and his "fuck it all" demeanor. after all, isn't it the most blunt people you know that at the end of the day are the most ralph tresvant (mr sensitivity)?



************
braniac dum-dums bust the scientifical...

if anyone exemplifies this "coolness" being described, i'd nod in the direction of young hov. for years, roc-a-fella itself was a brand built on his identity as one cool motherfucker.

jay's music is distinctly without passion -- he mocks you when he's angry, he sends goons to come get you instead of getting his own mitts dirty and his moments of vulnerability remain painted with the brush of dopeness (he's so gangster that he shot his brother, when he lost his main squeeze it was because he was fucking so many other girls). even though he knows he's one of hiphop's all-time greats, he still lacks the self-confidence to let down his guard completely. as a result, jay's shit lacks the honesty that speaks to the fans of inferior emcees like tupac and nas.

it extends to jay's choices for production, singles, videos, etc. peep the supposed plan for the black album: no singles, no videos, no radio, no ads. the reality: singles and videos from the 'tunes and timbaland and an accompanying marketing frenzy. while an excellent album, the only real surprise was that he plucked rick rubin to do a beat and made a artsy video for the song. even retired, hov's back at it -- song with hot-rapper-of-the-minute slim thug, album with r. kelly, even his courtship of beyonce (not that anyone could be faulted for slanging cock at that strong-thighed mare, but jay just had to "have the hottest girl in the game wearing his chain").

as talented as hovito is, his unwillingness to FUCK UP his aura of coolness means that we'll never see the best he could have done. he simply refuses to take a headlong plunge into the pool of artistry, instead opting to keep one arm on the safety of the edge's anti-slip tiling -- so reasonable doubt begets "sunshine", the blueprint begets "me and my girlfriend" and the black album begets "big chips". maybe it just illustrates the intrinsic problem with an artist/executive who values the bottom line more than creativity.

instead of coasting upon the nerd archetype his fans embraced, he had to go and get cool on them with bandanas, songs about guns and gnarled facial hair.

I'd add in a touch of Ms Booty/The Light and you've got a dude trying to convince us of some shit he's not.

jay's tone isnt just nonchalant, its borderline heartless.

"as talented as hovito is, his unwillingness to FUCK UP his aura of coolness means that we'll never see the best he could have done"

very good point. jay talks about how he would love to work with this group and that group...but when he does (see the roots, linkin park), it's not really all that dramatic of a change.

all this talk is making me feel of those who are "uncool".

like it or not, common had the balls to release ec, d had the same brass ones to release voodoo. we're not gonna see that from jay. like u said, he planned a ballsy move when first thinking of the black album...then released a plan (albeit excellent) jay z album.



************
braniac dum-dums bust the scientifical...

jay will wistfully moan about wanting to be common or kweli, but even with platinum sales virtually guaranteed, he picks "change clothes" and "brush your shoulder off" as the lead singles for his retirement album. this, of course, begs the question: which is he, full of shit or gutless?

>this, of course, begs the
>question: which is he, full of shit or gutless?

Gutless, but his self-rationale likely would be that 'he's just full of shit, just like another ole hustler on the stoop' - and then manifesting the intent as boasting weight over the reality; theory versus praxis - praxis usually wins out, but not pushing the edges of the envelope leads to some serious under-utilitization of talent... Can't do this, can't do that b/c of what are the publicly implicit, but personally concrete parameters of behavior and execution... For fear of falling from the perch of aesthetics of cool or the standards of conduct demanded by who and/or what his public persona is riveted upon...

"other than some of cann ox, el-p's beats sound like somebody molesting a household pet"
- soundsop

Like a true hustler, he gets the people all antsy like "oh damm, there's not gonna be a video, no promos, etc" anticipating the product...can't wait to get that CD to see what he's gonna do this time. We're like "damm, a song with Common would be hot, he'll get all lyrical/introspective/speak real shit"

And then you get more of the same. Just this time it's packaged a little differently. The marketing was he said there wasn't gonna be any marketing.

"you're a customer crony"


"This town is like a great big pussy waiting to get fucked" -Tony Montana on Miami

made him look kind of corny....I just never bought the "I used to move mad keys" stuff and trying to convince folks with that movie streets is watching...

"we was the first one's to have cristol in they videos" I mean....

whatever...

never really bought into all of that with him...seems a bit inauthentic...

biggie could have rapped about never selling drugs and i would have believed every word of it.

relevant than reality...

but even in the context of fiction....Belivability has it's place...and Jay Z, especially with his effort in that movie, just wasn't convincing...even if he was acting.

Agree completly.

>as a result, jay's shit lacks the honesty that speaks to the
>fans of inferior emcees like tupac and nas.

BTW your ability to stay on message, and consistently sneak in the “prescribed talking points" regardless of topic, is impeccable.

I think he wanted it too bad.

Big Daddy Kane was cool... Rakim was Cool...

I'm not buying Jay or even Nas.

Who knows...

Peace

Wendell

means that he wasn't cool?

one
k. orr

I'm the gatekeeper.

Peace

Wendell

"You see what you did to rappers? They're scared to be themselves. Niggas don't think yall gonna accept them for being themselves..."

"Wanna walk the walk, well make sure your shoes fit..."---Dilla

Damn, Im slow.

With my mind now clear concerning the goal of this post, I stand up and applaud it.

however this is a thorough assessment/analyzation.

I think he is far to deep and profound a thinker and emcee to keep his cool the entire time. He does a good job on singles, and in the public eye, though. If you listen to the records all the way thru, particularly BP, BP2, and the Black album.

>if anyone exemplifies this "coolness" being described, i'd nod in the direction of young hov. for years, roc-a-fella itself was a brand built on his identity as one cool motherfucker.
jay's music is distinctly without passion -- he mocks you when he's angry, he sends goons to come get you instead of getting his own mitts dirty and his moments of vulnerability remain painted with the brush of dopeness (he's so gangster that he shot his brother, when he lost his main squeeze it was because he was fucking so many other girls). even though he knows he's one of hiphop's all-time greats, he still lacks the self-confidence to let down his guard completely. as a result, jay's shit lacks the honesty that speaks to the fans of inferior emcees like tupac and nas.

>it extends to jay's choices for production, singles, videos, etc. peep the supposed plan for the black album: no singles, no videos, no radio, no ads. the reality: singles and videos from the 'tunes and timbaland and an accompanying marketing frenzy. while an excellent album, the only real surprise was that he plucked rick rubin to do a beat and made a artsy video for the song. even retired, hov's back at it -- song with hot-rapper-of-the-minute slim thug, album with r. kelly, even his courtship of beyonce (not that anyone could be faulted for slanging cock at that strong-thighed mare, but jay just had to "have the hottest girl in the game wearing his chain").

>as talented as hovito is, his unwillingness to FUCK UP his aura of coolness means that we'll never see the best he could have done. he simply refuses to take a headlong plunge into the pool of artistry, instead opting to keep one arm on the safety of the edge's anti-slip tiling -- so reasonable doubt begets "sunshine", the blueprint begets "me and my girlfriend" and the black album begets "big chips". maybe it just illustrates the intrinsic problem with an artist/executive who values the bottom line more than creativity.<





However I think that Jay reveals himself to be sensitive, contemplative, second guessing himself, scared, and overall humble in fear of death.

Examples-"Some people Hating" off BP2 where he admits defeat to Nas and speaks on insecurities.

"Song Cry" he definitely drops his guard, despite it being contrived. He is still willing to put hisself out there.

"Moment of Clarity" is all about second guessing.

Then there are the subliminal ways he exposes his overly analytical, self-obsessesed insecurity...

Calling out rappers for no reason (although some say Nas was a marketing idea to benefit both conceived by Steve Stoute) like Prodigy. They were in different universes, what could be gained other that posturing? Why do people posture? They feel inferior in some way, less macho, hard, call it whatcha will.

He feels (felt, PRE BEYONCE) its all good,ya knowSmackin' hoes, bangin they friends, gettin em drunk or rolled out on e', bringin' em home diggin em out, and bangin' em out and kickin' em out bout 7am. Then you call him a mysoginist, but ask Columbine, he was the first one in line donating proceeds from every ticket sold. I mean, what exactly is the correlation. Smack a hoe on the singles, but cut a check to charity,and make OTHER records that somewhat give praise to some women, the lessons learned, and asking for forgineness.
Because clearly people aren't listening to the records the whole way through. All they hear is his radio records.

>it extends to jay's choices for production, singles, videos, etc. peep the supposed plan for the black album: no singles, no videos, no radio, no ads. the reality: singles and videos from the 'tunes and timbaland and an accompanying marketing frenzy. while an excellent album, the only real surprise was that he plucked rick rubin to do a beat and made a artsy video for the song.<

I don't think the record company woulda been down with the original black album plan, especially if it really was his final record.lol

Cool is a club with a key and a handshake that always changes. Cool is reactive and retrenching.
Cool doesnt signify.
Cool is freaked by the prospect of loosing its monopoly on authenticity.
But more then anything...
Cool doesn't give a shit.

native son

I didnt have time to elaborate at the jo.

native son

i remember george clinton used to mock the four tops four dancing and singing for a whole show but never sweating, i.e. being a tad 'too cool' for their own good. but werent the JBs all about coolness too? isnt prince all about being cool too? he never really goes crazy on stage, as such. its all very controlled. (again, GC used to mock prince too, saying even his improvisations were meticulously rehearsed). hendrix used to take the piss out of R&B musicians of his time for being immaculately groomed and suited and booted etc, like george did, except he seemed to do it with more bitterness.

i think this post should discuss 'musical coolness' as much as visual coolness.

>i remember george clinton used to mock the four tops four
>dancing and singing for a whole show but never sweating,
>i.e. being a tad 'too cool' for their own good. but werent
>the JBs all about coolness too?

the JBs were but James himself i'm not sure about. he used to bug out on stage a little bit...he'd sweat and mess his hair up. but he'd fine the band if they played a wrong note and i suspect his dances were tightly controlled and planned ahead of time. i think he was about cool, yeah.

isnt prince all about being
>cool too? he never really goes crazy on stage, as such. its
>all very controlled. (again, GC used to mock prince too,
>saying even his improvisations were meticulously rehearsed).

early Prince wasn't as cool as latter/current Prince. i have a tape of a 1983 show where-in he goes into these...almost convulsions on stage and i bet he rehearsed them. he looked quite un-cool when he danced in this show but never really out of control. being that he was a student of James Brown it wouldn't surprise me if he had all his moves planned before he got on stage, even the 1s that look spontaneous. him going around in those outrageous outfits in the Dirty Mind era & simulating masturbation w/the microphone & making out w/Gail on stage was probably as far out and freaked out as he got and that all had to be planned.

>hendrix used to take the piss out of R&B musicians of his
>time for being immaculately groomed and suited and booted
>etc, like george did, except he seemed to do it with more
>bitterness.
>
>i think this post should discuss 'musical coolness' as much
>as visual coolness.

Last week I had a gig with a woman who sings background for JB, and she told me about a recent show where the sax player added a couple of notes to a run, while still playing all the notes of the run he was supposed to play in the right places, (basically a tiny extra flourish in a line), and JB shimmies over and flashes a $50 fine on the cat right there.

She proceeded to say that he has relaxed considerably in recent years... if that's relaxed, I'd hate to see him tight.

Cats prefer to be called Dawgs than cats. When something is amazing it is refered to as "Hot" rather than "Kool". Today, the emphasis is on boldness rather than insouciance. Yah dig.

The "cool" that you guys are describing feels to me like it's the type defined by teenagers.

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

I think coolness and youth are tightly intertwined.

What's popping off with the mid to late 30 set?

"My mellow, we came up on that apple stock."
"Word son, but my adjustable rate mortgage is not gonna be tight later on"
"I feel ya dog. Sup with grilling on the holiday?"....

one
k. orr

What about the spots that you hang at? The people that you meet? Sure, the defining characteristics change as we get older. But I still meet folks or hear music or wear gear or chill at spots that I consider "cool".

To me, it seemed like you guys completely ransacked the entire idea of "cool". I certainly agree that there are strong elements of fear, imitation and conformity in what's considered by many to be cool. But at the same time, different age/geographical/cultural groups or even sub-cultures have different ideas of what's cool.

Could this be a post to compare & contrast "cool" vs "popular"?

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

> What about the spots that you hang at? The people that
>you meet? Sure, the defining characteristics change as we
>get older. But I still meet folks or hear music or wear
>gear or chill at spots that I consider "cool".

So we're in agreement.

But that's not the mid-to late 30 set for me.

> To me, it seemed like you guys completely ransacked the
>entire idea of "cool". I certainly agree that there are
>strong elements of fear, imitation and conformity in what's
>considered by many to be cool. But at the same time,
>different age/geographical/cultural groups or even
>sub-cultures have different ideas of what's cool.

Which was your point.

But I don't really see older folks being cool. (cause I'm not that old...yet)

> Could this be a post to compare & contrast "cool" vs
>"popular"?

Don't older folks have a diff social reality?
- home
- work
- family

Doesn't all that stuff preclude cool?

>Don't older folks have a diff social reality?
>- home
>- work
>- family
>
>Doesn't all that stuff preclude cool?

no.

your premise is off and implies the mutual exclusivity of being old and cool(moderators, you should enable venn diagram drawing capabilities).

many of the folks who dictate/inspire 'coolness' are undoubtedly family men/women (i.e. actors, entertainers, athletes, marketing strategists). in fact, i would argue that their 'jobs' afford them the means to create and perpetuate 'coolness'.

cause i'm not sure if we're all talking about the same thing.

I think Marbles was asking for cool outside of the American pop culture sense.

Like don't have Senior citizens have their choices and styles that are cool.

As opposed to people like Johnny Cash doing this and that, and young folks and culture critics are like "that's cool".

>Don't older folks have a diff social reality?
>- home
>- work
>- family
>
>Doesn't all that stuff preclude cool?

Not at all. You could add cool in front of all of those words. Some folks have 'cool' homes and work at 'cool' jobs and have a 'cool' family.

And don't tell me you don't run across those older brother who are cool personified.

Cool is a lifestyle...

Peace

Wendell

the products, manifestations of cool than cool itself.

bboy stances and throwbacks? those are fleeting expressions of cool.

black cool has always been about being casual while doing the unusual. jordan gliding from the freethrow line like his opponents ain't even there? black cool. miles turning his back on the audience at his show? black cool. cam' rockin pink and still actin thuggery like the color poses no question to his masculinity? black cool.

the way you speak about cool here is almost anti-cool. generalized expressions of cool can't be cool for long because then you aren't being casual with the unsual. you're being casual with the usual.

george clinton is very cool. the nigga was a fuckin freak and didn't give a damn. that's cool. that's why it's still cool to fuk with some p-funk in my hood...which would make it uncool because it's so usual. haha.

i can't even wrap my mind around a distinction between coolness and funkiness tho. funk is definitive black cool. some folks fake it...not really being comfortable with standing out. but some folks can do them with or without the spotlight, and be chill wit it.

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

"why do y'all hate black people so much?" - k. orr

>the products, manifestations of cool than cool itself.
>
>bboy stances and throwbacks? those are fleeting expressions
>of cool.
>
>black cool has always been about being casual while doing
>the unusual. jordan gliding from the freethrow line like his
>opponents ain't even there? black cool. miles turning his
>back on the audience at his show? black cool. cam' rockin
>pink and still actin thuggery like the color poses no
>question to his masculinity? black cool.
>
>the way you speak about cool here is almost anti-cool.
>generalized expressions of cool can't be cool for long
>because then you aren't being casual with the unsual. you're
>being casual with the usual.
>
>george clinton is very cool. the nigga was a fuckin freak
>and didn't give a damn. that's cool. that's why it's still
>cool to fuk with some p-funk in my hood...which would make
>it uncool because it's so usual. haha.
>
>i can't even wrap my mind around a distinction between
>coolness and funkiness tho. funk is definitive black cool.
>some folks fake it...not really being comfortable with
>standing out. but some folks can do them with or without the
>spotlight, and be chill wit it.
>
>« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »
>
>"why do y'all hate black people so much?" - k. orr

>the products, manifestations of cool than cool itself.

>black cool has always been about being casual while doing
>the unusual. jordan gliding from the freethrow line like his
>opponents ain't even there? black cool. miles turning his
>back on the audience at his show? black cool.

Those Emo guys turning their back on the audiences....

Cool?

How about being so moved by what you're singing, you start crying..

Cool?

Compared to Lauryn Hill almost breaking down when she did her unplugged stuff?

B/W with her constant admonishing of the audience?

>the way you speak about cool here is almost anti-cool.
>generalized expressions of cool can't be cool for long
>because then you aren't being casual with the unsual. you're
>being casual with the usual.

Although this discussion of cool might sound clinical and abstract - it's because we're arguing that cool is clinical and abstract.

But the real nub in this, is

Do people actually try to be cool or is coolness innate?
Is coolness something active or passive?
(or is it some sort of recognition/relationship?)
Are some people lying about their coolness?

The assumption is that certain people are kind of born with a certain awareness, a certain way of doing things, and they don't do it because someone told them so - but when they do what they do - the result is coolness.

The next assumption is that someone trying to copy said coolness will come off as fake.

The 3rd and final assumption is that we can figure out who the liars are.

And we all know in our hearts, it's easier to lie to the next man, than to catch the next man in his lie. Research also tells us that it's difficult to figure out if someone is lying. Research also tells us, that the people who lie the best to us, the people who fake the best, are the people that we know.

If I were to say that I met Jay Z and he was totally insecure, you guys might believe me. If I were to say he was totally confident, you'd believe me too.

Being totally insecure would take away from his coolness, his grace. So it's very possible that he manages his relationship with the rest of us, so that we never see it.

If it takes that much effort to put up a front - is that person really cool or are we just fooled?

The Jordan examples of cool are so easy to grasp and understand.

But when you have musicians that work hard on their music, on their image, on their showmanship, and are very aware of the fact that what they do affects people - is it now manufactured cool? And if it's manufactured cool, isn't that some lesser form of cool than a Manigault on the play ground?

>george clinton is very cool. the nigga was a fuckin freak
>and didn't give a damn. that's cool. that's why it's still
>cool to fuk with some p-funk in my hood...which would make
>it uncool because it's so usual. haha.

That's just it, GC was trying to not be cool.

But the ideology of cool took over GC. Because people liked what he did, because he was distinctive - he became cool even though that's something he personally rejected.

In a different way, that's the tyranny of cool. (the other way being that black folks have to conform to some floating notion of coolness in order to even have a chance at success in music)

You might not have a say in whether you are cool or not, because it's other people who make that decision.

That's classic Tyranny of the Majority right there. Alexis would know what i'm talking about.

And in thinking about cool, it's obvious to me at least, that certain people are cool all the time, some people are cool some of the time, but the vast majority of black folks aren't cool in general. We might be cool in contrast with other folks, mainly the suburban white majority...like Cuba Gooding Jr can do a 1990 whenever he wants to. That's some cool shit. Cuba is cool in Hollywood and Television city. Is that nigga cool on Crenshaw though? Popular? maybe. Respected? possibly. But cool? Hell naw.

A lotta black folks just ain't cool. But a lot of them 1) think they are, and 2) try to become cool. Is it as blatant as waking up and thinking, I'm gonna be the coolest nigga the world has ever seen?

Or is it more subtle, like they start dressing a certain way, start speaking their mind more, start going for their's?

Cool is a complicated subject that folks don't really deal with, cause it's so amorphous and seemingly subjective.

But I don't think cool is really that mysterious that you can't seriously consider who is cool and how they become cool.

one
k. orr

>Those Emo guys turning their back on the audiences....
>
>Cool?
>
>How about being so moved by what you're singing, you start
>crying..
>
>Cool?
>
>Compared to Lauryn Hill almost breaking down when she did
>her unplugged stuff?
>
>B/W with her constant admonishing of the audience?

it can go both ways. they uncool because they broke down emotionally and can't keep composed, or, they cool because they can show emotion in public and maintain confidence.

>Do people actually try to be cool or is coolness innate?
>Is coolness something active or passive?
>(or is it some sort of recognition/relationship?)
>Are some people lying about their coolness?

being cool is a behavior, an exercise of control, and as such is not innate, but learned (perfected even). it's a practice, and like all practices it is initially very conscious of itself, but eventually becomes second nature. fake it til you make it. being cool definitely comes easier to some than others, and i think the only way to guage how genuine one's cool is to observe them when they are forced to show and prove. it's easy to be cool when you aren't tested, but being cool when it is inconvenient to be so is what gets you points.

which i guess is contrary to the assumptions.

>The assumption is that certain people are kind of born with
>a certain awareness, a certain way of doing things, and they
>don't do it because someone told them so - but when they do
>what they do - the result is coolness.
>
>The next assumption is that someone trying to copy said
>coolness will come off as fake.
>
>The 3rd and final assumption is that we can figure out who
>the liars are.

>>george clinton is very cool. the nigga was a fuckin freak
>>and didn't give a damn. that's cool. that's why it's still
>>cool to fuk with some p-funk in my hood...which would make
>>it uncool because it's so usual. haha.
>
>That's just it, GC was trying to not be cool.

this is where my idea of cool is conflicting with y'alls'. cats like george clinton, andre3000 even, these niggas define cool to me. they go out of their way to stand out, to show the world how comfortable they are with being they selves. ice cold.

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

"why do y'all hate black people so much?" - k. orr

...the man consistently comes on here with well-thought out and detailed posts and responses. he's also got a disturbing amount of music knowledge.

the first time that i encountered afkap was this summer when i was newly arrived on here and wasting time at my summer job. we had a long drawn out discussion/argument in the cocaine and reggae post (really wish that thing had been archived). to this day that has remained one of the most entertaining and informative exchanges that i have had on these boards. i haven't had the pleasure of another long disgreement or any kind of exchange with him since then but i keep noticing his posts and responses and while i may not always see exaclty eye to eye with him the man is on point.

this post is another example. i really like your thesis/idea a real interesting point of view. i agree with it btu i think i'd make some qualifications between cool fashion and musical tastes and qualities of a person that make them "cool," because i think that certain types of people have them and it's kind of universal. you got me thinking with this one...

>he first time that i encountered afkap was this summer when i >was newly arrived on here and wasting time at my summer job. >we had a long drawn out discussion/argument in the cocaine and >reggae post (really wish that thing had been archived). to >this day that has remained one of the most entertaining and >informative exchanges that i have had on these boards.

This was my post!! I wish it was archived too. Great discussion, knowledge, points of view and reference. Much like this one as well.

I don't mind that Afkap comes off as knowing a bit TOO much about music and its various cultures and incarnations, because I feed from his wealth of knowledge.

>i said it’s the enemy of funkiness and freedom, citing the
>first time i watched Run-DMC’s “walk this way” video.
>
>i didn’t really know Steve Tyler was at the time, but this
>is what i thought about him:
>
>a) “he looks crazy”
>b) “he takes drugs and might even be a homosexual”
>c) “he looks like he’s having a lot of fun, and i want to be
>like him!”
>
>on the other hand, Run and D - who up until this time had
>been cold as ice to me - looked like a couple of squares
>with their poses and their very apparent reluctance to
>commit to the song (i wasn’t surprised when years later i
>learned that they didn’t want to do the song… they didn’t
>look like they wanted to be there at all).

Your definition of cool ain't the same as mine...

Peace

Wendell

He's rather uninhibited on stage.

He did a video with Kweli that some said was "suspect"

But at the same time, he doesn't strike me as "nerdy" per se

historically, cool as we understand it today (even though there seem to be multiple understandings of it in this thread) doesn't seem to be a concern amongst whitefolks until the 50s, arguably (undeniably really) a reaction to the bop era.

achievement has always been championed, but niggas seem to be more concerned with making achievement seem effortless.

it reminds me of how black athletes are always attributed with natural talent while white athletes get respected for their hard work ethic.

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

"why do y'all hate black people so much?" - k. orr

There have always been styles, trends, fashions, things that become popular - but cool is more akin to what you're saying. Making the difficult look easy, so easy you can splurge on the next man.

But that having been said, white folks take an idea, remove it from its context, and then reinvent the shit on their own terms.
{but We do the same - let's not bullshit ourselves.}

But white cool = Friends, but also Woody Allen or Elvis Costello, Iggy Pop, Weezer, et cetera.

It's just the polar opposite of what black cool is about. White cool is to "loose your inhibitions" or beast out and act wild. It's just as blueprinted as black cool.

i've been thinking a lot about the primary differences in black and white culture, and the idea of bein cool (not breaking a sweat in moments of intensity, as i see it) plays into it. i get all these parallel dichotomies.

i look at every action as dialogue of some sort, communication the primary mode of being. as such, i see the main difference between niggas and crackas in the type of communication they value most.

black vs. white for me is oral vs. literary.
improvisation vs. orchestration.
rhythm vs. melody.
capturing the moment vs. planning for posterity.

i know this reply seems random as hell, because i can't really explain the connection without attempting a dissertation. i had planned on a post using the crack trade to illustrate the idea but decided i was getting too big for my britches. but yeah, the concern for cool amongst niggas seems to be a necessary characteristic considering the value we place on oral communication.

...one day it will all make sense. or at least one day i'll be able to explain it in a way that satisfies me.

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

"why do y'all hate black people so much?" - k. orr

When I was at the Grandmaster Fash show omn Tuesday, he was on some old "all you too-cool muhf--kas need to get the f--k outta here"...basically seemed like he was on the tip that being "too cool" keeps you from having fun and bugging out the way you should.

I know me, oftentimes, I have to throw out thinking of how I may look in front of cats I know in order to have fun at functions...

More later, just wanted to acknowledge the post.

I'm gone for an afternoon and this happens...Lawd!

this went FAR better than i ever expected! i haven't felt this educated by a Lesson post in ages!

thanks a lot for all the different and very insightful perspectives... i'm probably not gonna have much time to participate today, but i'll be following the discussion.

i think i'm more confused now than i was before.

haha.

but i guess that what happens when you start looking for the truth...it's a slippery slope.

i do agree that this has been a great discussion that covers many opinions and many ideas. mind boggling almost.

i LIKE the fact that i'm sort of confused now... because it shows that the conversation has developed into more directions that i had anticipated. and that's just more food for thought for me.

is cool an extension of trying to be popular? I would think that being "cool" and being "real" would butt heads. And can't YOU define what is cool to you?

example: On this okayplayer.com I can say I like John Mayer. and not get clowned.

On another forum I mentioned the John Mayer t.v. show and was clowned for not being cool

"the (disenfranchised) black male has no choice but to be cool" (the only reason why i put "disenfranchised" in parentheses is because using that to modify "black male" is almost redundant)

but word. i think we forget sometimes how different niggas are from the mainstream by default. how much, even after america has had a few hundred years to get used to us, we stick out on every level. if we weren't "cool" with that we'd be nervous wrecks.

from jake to likka store owners to admiring whiteboys, all eyes are on us. being comfortable with standing out is truely a necessity for black folks.

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

"why do y'all hate black people so much?" - k. orr

"Marlene Kim Connor's anatomy of cool reveals it as a vital code of behaviors and attitudes that plays an often disregarded role in shaping the conception of manhood among young black boys: "Cool, at its most basic, is a way of living and surviving in an inhospitable environment, a rational reaction to an irrational situation, a way of fitting in while standing out, of gaining respect while instilling fear."

the rigid code of behavior we follow (aka "cool") is possibly our way of establishing a level of control over our lives since so much of what we deal with is beyond our control and actively working against us.

it's a security blanket of sorts.

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

"why do y'all hate black people so much?" - k. orr

as someone who stands outside of 'cool' as we talk about it in this post i see it as pretty rigid (i'm outside b/c i'm gay, btw). all of that "do this", "DON'T do this" is quite restricting from where i stand. i feel for 'cool' ppl sometimes.

Sowhat denies cool, yet Fire who thinks he's cool, puts him right back in.

TYRANNY

get it?

i'm not saying this just b/c i'm a nerd but i'm not 'cool' as we've defined it in this discussion b/c a) i'm gay, b) i'm not hip-hop.

you use cool in a way that doesn't fit this discussion but using it your way, yeah i'm cool.

and in a gay(er) context i'm probably cool considering how i dress, who i hang with, & where we go.

potentially.

i don't know how often you interact with straight niggas on a day to day basis, but how you're respected on these boards by virtually everyone (despite the homophobia found here) goes to show you haven't escaped the cool either. fortunately or unfortunately for you, your sexual orientation makes you stand out (obviously) and the fact that you never make a big deal of standing out is cool in effect.

like i said, ion't know how it translates offline, but i would wager that extremely homophobic cats on the boards are far more accepting of you than they would be other other homosexuals just on the basis of you being a cool nigga.

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

"why do y'all hate black people so much?" - k. orr

>like i said, ion't know how it translates offline, but i
>would wager that extremely homophobic cats on the boards are
>far more accepting of you than they would be other other
>homosexuals just on the basis of you being a cool nigga.

I can cosign cause I know Hots off the boards. Besides, in Chicago, you can be cool and gay. This IS the home of House Music... DUH???

Peace

Wendell

we need "cool" in order to stay sane, almost.

that just brought what this post is really about home to me.

.....IMO, I've always felt that blacks were always perceived as cool because we tend to do our own thing instead of following the mainstream. It just so happens that a lot of non-blacks see us doing our own thing and begin to get curious, wondering why we're enjoying what we enjoy, which in turn, pushes them to partake in our ways. The "On the outside looking in" effect.



------------------------------
This heah's the NOO and IMPROOVED sig, homey.

Check out summa dis artwork:

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/6081167

Myspace mentioned that they are currently havin' a "red x" problem with the pics on their site, so you may hafta right click on 'em and hit "show pictures" a coupla times in order to see them. However, they show up nicely if you have Mozilla Firefox.

-thebigfunk
homepage.mac.com/thebigfunk/

Exactly. It allows the music to live and
you to live, and to find those spaces
where the two of you can live together
and have it make sense. ~ Malice

De gustibus non disputandum est. -
There should be no arguing about
taste. - Horace

Currently Playing:
Mahler's Symphony No. 5
(conducted by Bernstein)
The Delivery Man (Elvis Costello)
Want Two (Rufus Wainwright)
Fidelio (conducted by Seiji Ozawa)

As a teenager in the 80's "cool" was defined on my block as

"having what the next cat wasnt up on"

But think about how stupid I was thinking my GEORGETOWN jacket was some rare shit nobody else had?

We spent alot time and money during the 80's trying to shit on the next man via clothes, chains, whatever. But if we all in the hood what does it matter??

It's like the cat who got a grip pushing weight, he dont leave the block cause he need to stay and shit on folks with his money. So he parks his 600 BENZ in front of his mother's house where he stays in the basement he has pimped out with the boomin system and big screen TV.


Now mainstream would say he is a loser but we on the block think that nigga is cool.

Poverty and lack of self esteem push us into trying to be cool.



He would never sign with a NL team at this point in his career, after he's hit a million fucking batters. Obviously its a different story coming straight out of high school dumbass. And did he sign with Houston? NO. So youre point is moot, just like everything else thats coming out of your mouth - 3xCrazy on Roger Clemens in 6/2002

That's another aspect of the tyranny of cool: the idea of the "exclusive" Like in my HS you were the shit if you had the latest Tony Touch mixtape, because those were hard to get down here. You had to have fam in NYC or go up there yourself. And then the tapes of course had the latest freestyles, remixes, etc, so it was like exclusive on top of exclusive.

You still listening to Tony Touch 22? bitch I got 25! it got the Large Pro remix of It's A Boy! step off!

So needless to say this creates jealousy and envy, and some cats thrive off that. This leads to dudes getting shot for their Jordans.


"This town is like a great big pussy waiting to get fucked" -Tony Montana on Miami

« can't see the ghetto for the palm trees »

"why do y'all hate black people so much?" - k. orr

.

anyone care to take it into a diff direction than it's been going in?

i spent 3 hrs yesterday afternoon reading this & the Cody post.

but when a post reaches critical mass like this...

it's pretty much over.

i got a few things to say...

i'd like to take it back to the Cody direction though. that's the context w/in which it really works, i think. a lotta cats just replied w/out really knowing the background to the post & many of those who did know it didn't care b/c they were too confused or had agendas (i see you Coolidge)...

i have/had plans to make a whole post abt Guiness' comment alone.

that nigga's madd underrated, yo.

Homie wears a rather large man-purse while playing the guitar and singing. That is a flagrant foul trying to be cool.

If the purse served ANY function...maybe. Otherwise, it does say alot.

Cody doesn't try to be cool.

I tried earlier:

How can a Black teen look at Steve Tyler and think "this dude is crazy" and "on drugs and possibly gay" (c) Affy and THEN say, that Steve is "cool", while Runandnem are "squares"????

Am I the only one who questions this????

Peace

Wendell

But I know what Affy is saying.

but maybe it's cause neither of us are in the matrix.

wow...
this is a powerful post....
*sits in B-Boy stance*
_____________________________________
jetblack y'all...

okayplayer = music/movie/multimedia snob, period.

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